Mr. J asked, “ I think I’m just wondering in regard to this then like… does ignorance just happen dependent on conditions if it’s beginningless? 

Meaning “samsara” is something that the mind can sort of “fall into” depending on conditions even if it was in “nirvana” at some point, and then “samsara” before that too?”

Soh replied,

“ No, nirvana is not reversible. Nobody was in nirvana before samsara

Samsara had no beginning

See what kyle dixon wrote before:

“One of the characteristics of nirvana (and all unconditioned dharmas) is that it is "permanent" because it is defined as a total cessation of cause for rebirth in the three realms. Since there is no possibility of cause for "re-arising" nirvana is said to be "permanent".

As I wrote before on here:

Buddhahood is irreversible and permanent. Nirvāṇa is the total exhaustion of one's ignorance regarding the nature of phenomena, and for that reason nirvāṇa is described as a cessation. What ceases is the cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena, which is precisely the cessation of cause for the arising of the cyclical round of rebirth in the three realms we call "saṃsāra."

For this reason, nirvāṇa is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of saṃsāra, saṃsāra no longer has any way to arise.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the basis [wisdom] itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree.

He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:

Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings.

and from Lopon Kunga Namdrol:

Buddhahood is a subtractive process; it means removing, gradually, obscurations of affliction and obscurations of knowledge. Since wisdom burns these obscurations away, in the end they have no causes for returning; and further, the causes for buddhahood are permanent leading to a permanent result.”

………

Yes and you remove afflictions and ignorance that causes cyclic rebirth through wisdom

"The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought， but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge， but a specific misconception， and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein， Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there， so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance."

Napper， Elizabeth， 2003， p. 103"

Nirvana is the permanent ending of ignorance and other mental afflictions that comes with it

…

Mr J: “ And then it’s like keeping up with the wisdom and skillful means like you’re at the gym or practicing guitar to maintain it, hence the effort part”

Soh:

“ You practice the path of wisdom and meditation until all traces of the two obscurations are absolutely exhausted. At which point you are a Buddha, which none of us here are (we are still very much on the path despite insights and all those I have witnessed that claims to be Buddha are seriously deluded individuals) and you do not need to practice to maintain or improve anything.

And even the Buddha spends months in forest retreats practicing anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) meditation every year, he still meditates everyday and so on because he explained it is a pleasant abiding and he is compassionate for future generations (setting a good example for them).

Until then, we need to continue practicing diligently to progress along the path to Buddhahood.

See Jamgon Mipham’s explanations:

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"

 https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/xu9fxp/does_the_spirit_get_to_live_on_after_after_death/. Posted by

u/Ratboi973

13 hours ago

Does the “spirit” get to live on after after death even after reaching Nirvana?

Question

I’m very confused so please respond in actual simplistic and point of view to someone who has no clue how Buddhism really works. So no deep thinking or anything if someone can just explain the belief basis of what Buddhists believe happens after physical death even after attaining nirvana?

Like I heard that after reaching nirvana the “soul” or spirit or whatever you want to call it, can finally stop the cycle of rebirth and rest in bliss. But where? Where do you rest? Cuz if they say you finally ended all rebirth is there like an afterlife heaven type place that they can reside in once one has reached nirvana and died?

I heard they can be rebirthed to help others or also reside in a different dimension in peace.

Like my mind is going nuts can someone explain what the Buddhists really think happens after death AND reaching nirvana? Does it just all go black?

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level 1

xabir

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11 hr. ago

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edited 11 hr. ago

In Mahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism, although it is agreed in all Buddhist traditions that there is no unchanging or independent self, the mindstream (which consists of a transient, momentary and self-less series of mind moments) of a Buddha continue to endlessly manifest or emanate for the sake of other sentient beings out of compassion. Buddhas like all arahats do not suffer and are not bound by the cycles of karmic rebirth. However, Buddhas do not stray into the cessation of an arahat. Even arahats will be roused by a Buddha from their samadhi of cessation after a long time to continue their path to Buddhahood. This understanding about arahats is not shared by Theravada Buddhism, where many may see arahatship as their ideal goal and endpoint of spiritual practice.

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Ratboi973

OP

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11 hr. ago

So theoretically the cycle is infinite right? Once nirvana is reached an Arahat will still continue to be manifested in some form to help others reach this understanding? So it is technically an infinite process still? Because of compassion it chosen that they will return to help other humans?

This makes way more sense now if that’s what you mean

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xabir

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11 hr. ago

Something like that. The mahayana understanding is that even arahats are roused by a buddha from their state of cessation after a long time.

But the emanation of a fully awakened Buddha in our world is not due to karmas and are not uncontrolled. They do not suffer in the process of helping others. They are free from all mental afflictions (the kleshas such as clinging, craving, anger, delusion and all manners of I/me/mine making) that drives suffering and karmic rebirth.

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Ratboi973

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11 hr. ago

So if they come back to earth to help others out of compassion to share the teachings of enlightenment what form do they take? I’m probably ignorant to be asking that as it takes lots of Buddhist study to understand, but I would assume that in order to be consciously aware to help others they need to take upon some shape or form without the concept of “I/we/they” And I know that Buddhists tend to deny the idea of a soul as it’s an independent being but does that mean that take upon the form of a god or something? (Since they have returned to share the teachings of enlightenment)

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xabir

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9 hr. ago

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edited 9 hr. ago

In the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, it is important to understand that a fully awakened Buddha has three bodies. For example the historical Shakyamuni Buddha who appeared in India more than 2500 years ago is one such nirmanakaya manifestation that enacted the birth as a prince, his renunciation and search for truth culiminating in enlightenment under the bodhi tree. All these, according to Mahayana/Vajrayana teachings is simply a play, a show, a teaching device of an ancient Buddha that had long been awakened for a very long time.

On the three bodies:

“The dharmakāya, sometimes translated as the “truth body” or “reality body,” generally refers to the essential nature of the Buddha, as is stated in this sūtra. The saṃbhogakāya and the nirmāṇakāya, known collectively as the form bodies, are understood as emanations of the dharmakāya, or essential nature, of the Buddha. In other words, they are the manifestations of the enlightened activity of the Buddha. The saṃbhogakāya, sometimes translated as “enjoyment body,” is the apparitional form the Buddha takes for bodhisattvas and practitioners in meditative states or in dreams. The nirmāṇakāya, sometimes translated as “manifestation body,” is the physical form of the Buddha that can be seen by any sentient being. The Buddha, who is able to emanate in countless forms, does so in order to liberate beings through the illumination and demonstration of the Dharma. All three bodies are ultimately considered inseparable.” - The Noble ‌Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Three Bodies” https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-068-017.html

It is important to understand this point made by the redditor Krodha:

“The Buddha is the dharmakāya, the nature of your own mind. The Buddha is idolized and venerated because the three jewels, Buddha, dharma and sangha are the means by which you personally can actualize buddhahood and realize the true meaning of what it means to be a Buddha yourself. The the prajñāpāramitā exegesis, the Buddha himself states that he is not to be actually idolized as name and form, he says the Buddha is not the rūpakāya, not the personage, not the historical character, the Buddha is the dharmakāya, and the dharmakāya is the nature of your own mind. How do you actualize the citadel of the dharmakāya? By exhausting the two obscurations. How is that accomplished? By realizing the luminosity of mind and phenomena via the experiential realization of selflessness [anatta]. The Ārya-aṣṭasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā Sūtra states: Those who are attached to the tathāgata as a form or a name are childish and have corrupted discerning wisdom [prajñā], the tathāgatas are not to be seen as the rūpakāya; the tathāgatās are to be seen as the dharmakāya”

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