Showing posts with label Yogacara. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Yogacara. Show all posts

 

  • nyanasagara
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    mahayana
    I was wondering how this relates to Yogachara. If reality is non-dual, and if it is mind-only, then how is it not the same? I guess I don't understand how reality could be composed of multiple mind streams that are interconnected without that all just being activity in awareness.
    Śāntarakṣita and Kamalaśīla have an interesting take on this. I'll just copy and paste Jha's translation here for you to read. I'm not sure how much I agree with it, but it certainly is intriguing. Śāntarakṣita's root text will be bolded and Kamalaśīla's commentary will not be.
    The error in the view of these philosophers is a slight one,—due only to the assertion of eternality (of cognition); as diversity is clearly perceived in the cognitions of colour, sound and other things.—If all these cognitions were one, then, colour, sound, taste and other things would be cognisable all at once; as in an eternal entity there can be no different states.—(330-331)
    ‘The error is a slight one’;—as they postulate only Cognition (Consciousness, as the only entity), which is quite reasonable.
    “If that is so, then what is even the ‘slight error’ in their view?”
    It is due to the assertion of ‘eternality’,
    “But why should not the acceptance of ‘eternality’ be reasonable?”
    Answer—Diversity is clearly perceived etc. etc.;—‘Eternality’ connotes remaining in the same state always, and ‘non-eternality’ connotes not remaining in the same state always; and as a matter of fact, the Cognition that manifests (apprehends) Colour, Sound and other things is not found to be in one and the same state always;—actually it appears at one time as manifesting Colour and at another time, as manifesting Sound and other things, in a certain order of sequence. Under the circumstances, if all these things, Sound and the rest, were manifested by a single Eternal Cognition, then all of them would appear (be Cognised) simultaneously, like the bedspread of variegated colours; as the Cognition manifesting them would (ex hypothesi) be always there.
    It may be held that “the Cognition of Sound and other things are different ‘states’ of it appearing one after the other,—so that the apprehension of Sound etc. could not be simultaneous”.
    The answer to this is—‘In an Eternal Entity there can be no different states’;—because the ‘states’ are not different from the Entity to which they belong; so that the Entity to which the states belong would be liable to ‘production and destruction’,—appearance and disappearance,—in the same way as the States are liable; or, conversely, the states also would be eternal, like the Entity to which they belong.—If, on the other hand, the states are different from the entity to which they belong, then there can be no idea of the states belonging to this entity; as there is no benefit conferred by the one on the other; and this alternative (of the states being different from the Cognitions) would also be contrary to the doctrine that the eternal Cognition is the only one Entity.—(330-331)
    Further, if the Eternal Cognition existed, it could be known either through Perception or through Inference; that it cannot be known through Perception is shown in the following—[see verse 332 next]
    Cognition or consciousness is never apprehended as anything distinct from the cognitions of colour and other things; and inasmuch as these latter undergo variations every moment, what remains there that could be lasting (permanent, eternal)?—(332)
    Yogachara / Mind Only, Non-Dual, and the Other
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    As a matter of fact, apart from the Cognitions of Colour etc., which appear one after the other, we do not apprehend, any lasting Consciousness, eternal and one,—whereby it could be held to be known through Perception.—Then, inasmuch as it is well known that the Cognitions of Colour and otherngs are apprehended one after the other, and are destroyed every moment—it has to be explained what remains there that is non-different from those Cognitions? Thus, inasmuch as there is no apprehension of any such Cognition, which would be apprehended if it were there,—it cannot but be regarded as ‘non-existent This is what the Text means.
    Nor can it be held that the said Eternal Cognition is known through Inference. Because such an Inference would be based either upon the nature of the Cognition itself, or upon that of its effects. It cannot he the former, as there is nothing which can prove that such is the nature of the said Eternal Cognition; on the contrary, there is Perception itself which precludes any such notion.
    Thus the doctrine that ‘the world is the illusory modification of the Eternal Consciousness’ is not right.—(332)
    Then again, under this doctrine, the notions of ‘Bondage’ and ‘Liberation’ are not possible.—This is what is shown in the following—[see verse 333 next]
    There can be no distinction in cognition as ‘wrong’ and ‘right’—if the ‘soul’ consists of a single (eternal) cognition; how then can there be any ‘bondage’ and ‘liberation’?—(333)
    For one who holds the view that—Cognition is in perpetual flux, different with different persons, undergoing variations in a series,—the notion of ‘Bondage and Liberation’ is quite reasonable, as being due to the coming about of a series of cognitions, wrong and right; and through the practice of yoga, gradually purer and purer Cognitions coming about, the series of impure cognitions cease and the final Aim (of Liberation) is attained; and thus the attempt at Liberation becomes fruitful.—For you, on the other hand, the ‘Soul’ is of the nature of one Eternal Cognition; how then can there be any ‘Bondage’ and ‘Liberation’ for such a Soul? Because if the one Cognition is eternally wrong, then, as there could be no other state for it, there could be no possibility of ‘Liberation’; on the other hand, if the one Cognition were eternally right, then as it would be always pure, there could be no ‘Bondage’.—As regards our doctrine, the Cognition is held to be defective (wrong) or pure (right), in accordance with the varying character of the Series (in which it appears), and hence the notion of ‘Bondage and Liberation’ is entirely reasonable. This has been thus declared—‘Cognition is defective and free from defects, beset with impurities and free from impurities; if it were never impure, then all embodied beings would be always liberated; if it were never pure, then the attempt to secure Liberation would be fruitless’.—(333)
    What could the mystic set aside or accomplish by the practice of yoga? What too is there that could be rejected? As wrong cognition also is of the nature of the same (eternal cognition).—The knowledge of truth also cannot be something to be brought about; as, being of the nature of cognition, it is always there.—So that the entire practice of yoga also is entirely fruitless.—(334-335)
    If it be held that ‘Bondage and Liberation are only assumed, not real’;—then it becomes necessary to explain the basis of this assumption. What this basis is under the doctrine of ‘Cognitions being non-eternal’ has been shown above. Thus the Effort—in the form of the contemplation of Truth,—that you put forth for the attaining of the ‘Ultimate Aim’ and for passing beyond the cycle of Birth and Death, can only lead to futile fatigue.—This is shown in the following—[see verses 334-335 above]
    If, by the contemplation of Truth, the Mystic could set aside, or bring about, anything, then his Effort would be fruitful. As it is however, he can never set aside Wrong Cognition, because it is of the nature of the same,—i.e. of the nature of Eternal Cognition.—For the same reason it cannot be rejected; because what is eternal cannot be destructible and hence its rejection is impossible.—How can the Yogin accomplish—bring about—the Knowledge of Truth? Being of the nature of Eternal Cognition, the Knowledge of Truth would be always there.—Thus the doctrine in question cannot be right.—(334-335)
    That is the section on the relationship between Yogācāra and the Advaitin view in Tattvasaṃgrahapañjikā, composed by Śāntarakṣita and his student Kamalaśīla, a work generally taken to be written from a Yogācāra point of view (though both were actually followers of Madhyamaka in their final analysis, holding Yogācāra to have instrumental value).
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    I always want to ground scholastic debates in actual lived awakening, so I wonder, if a person gets non-dual (stage 4) and also actually perceives their mindstream as impermanent and momentary, would that automatically get them stage 5? If so that would mean all harisplitting debate about whether non-dual consciousness "inherently exists" in Yogcara would be unnecessary.

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    Tyler Jones
    IMO it should. Cittamatra is considered a step from Anatta to Emptiness of Phenomena. Its somewhat between Anatta and full Emptiness. Self is deconstructed by seeing the momentary nature of consciousness. In other words there is no lasting self but stream of moments.
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    Tyler Jones
    I do not think Yogacara is stage 4 kind of one mind.
    Kyle shared months ago,
    John Tan said,
    This article is very well written and yogacara never really explicitly said that mind is ultimate. This idea privileging mind as ultimate over the relative phenomena was a later devleopment.
    Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga
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    Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga
    Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga
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    That being said...

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    John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)

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    Tyler Jones
    however the debate would be more around wether we could consider this Stage 6. It would seem to be 5.5 xD

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    Robert Dominik Tkanka
    Even Hinayana accepts consciousness as merely momentary stream of moments without Self. But unlike Hinayana, Yogacara refutes external phenomena (which Madhyamika may or may not conventionally refute depending on which type of Madhyamika). It talks about twofold emptiness as well.

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    Cittamatra to me is Anatta with extra "form is empty cause it has the same nature as mental objects". Actually if we ground the discussion in Skandhas then the only difference between Anatta of the Pali Canon and Cittamatra is that Cittamatra says that the Skandha of Form is not substantially different from the mental Skandhas. Or we could say that all the objects of senses are mental objects.
    Soh Wei Yu
    speaks about how Anatta on its own can have a taste of physicality. Cittamatra dissolves that. However the emptiness of mental objects and moments of consciousness is not fully realised in Cittamatra.

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    [1:08 AM, 8/4/2020] Soh Wei Yu: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30336&start=20 - malcolm seems to say here that yogacara does not lead to 1st bhumi
    [1:53 AM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: It depends. Yogacara doesn't really claim mind is real ontologically from Dan Lusthaus if I rem correctly, it is cittamatra that says that...but u better double check ... It is a later devleopment from what I read
    What is the nature of mind? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
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    What is the nature of mind? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
    What is the nature of mind? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

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    Sure Sravakas see no self. They however see moments of consciousness and smallest particles of matter as ultimate. Pratyekabuddhas and Cittamatrins realise the emptiness of particles but not of moments. Svatantrika Madhyamaka realises the emptiness of all phenomena and Prasangika empties the emptiness itself.
    Cittamatra explains the relative as mind-stuff while Madhyamaka does not take that stance.
    At least thats how I understand it.
    Now Shentongpas of Dolpopa sort backtrack to Thusness stage 4 while those like Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso seem to say Shentong is just there to remind that experiental presence/luminosity aspect is important and should not be denied.

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    Soh Wei Yu
    same as Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. According to him too Cittamatra doesnt lead to 1st Bodhisattva Bhumi.

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  • Robert
    sure that's how it should work "according to the books", but who ever really directly realized anatman and momentariness per Shravaka Abhidharma and then when on realize that form is mind per Cittamatra and then realize moments and emptiness itself are empty per Madhyamaka? I strongly suspect the answer is no one, and the idea of ordering tenet systems like this is purely doxographical.

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    Tyler Jones
    you're right but to me the above makes sense based on my experiences when related to how different views can alter realisations and experience.
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    Tyler Jones
    also my friend went through the 5 stages of meditation on emptiness program based on the teachings of Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. He relates that at each level his experience perfectly matched what the program was pointing to. His conclusion was that this shows how view and experience are connected.

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  • IIRC KTGR's stages are based on doxographical categories, so are you saying your friend got full on anatta realization as the first stage?

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  • That would really be something.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    some of the earliest Yogacara texts explicitly accuse the Madhyamaka view of nihilism, that's something you don't see brought up much when people try to say that what the early Yogacarins really meant was the same as Madhyamaka. See Eckel's "Undigested pride: Bhaviveka on the dispute between Madhyamaka and Yogacara"

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    [8:31 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: The more vivid, more clear, more blissful, more convincing of effortless, non-dual luminosity, the more yogacara-like u become...lol
    [8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Since u send me so many articles about madhyamaka...lol
    [8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Madhyamaka, emptiness is to get rid of that.
    [8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: To uproot from that.
    [8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Get it?
    [8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Get rid of what.. seeing the luminous display as real?
    [8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: That emphasis...
    [8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [8:36 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Because of that uprooting, everything is an illusion despite vivid appearances.
    [8:37 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: So presence is also empty.
    [9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: If u say it is not intrinsic essence, u r saying it conditioned.
    [9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah clarity is conditioned, manifestation only
    [9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: U need to know what is conditioned...
    [9:31 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Mahamudra, zen, Dzogchen....direct pointing is to directly authenticate this unconditioned that is unmade.
    [9:42 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not sure what do u mean by unconditioned.. to me clarity is always manifestation and conditioned, but is unfabricated
    [9:42 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Unconditioned means unmade...
    [9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So u must sort out all these issues when studying
    [9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Now what exactly is mmk trying to cure...
    [9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Otherwise one might err towards over negation
    [9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: That is y yogacara mmk and yogacara svatantrika mmk.
    [9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like taoism.. tao is spontaneous and unfabricated, but at the same time not an ontological essence more like flow.. i see luminosity/manifestation/dharma as likewise. But in terms of D.O and emptiness
    [9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When u say not an ontological essence, what do u mean?
    [9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not an unconditioned undying Self or intrinsic essence
    [9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When we use terms like this, we r using it loosely. But when studying mmk, we can't.
    [9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So there r two schools of thoughts, one is the gelug and the rest.
    [9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Means the purpose of mmk is to free one from conceptualities...or?

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    Tyler Jones
    hard to say. He had breakthrough to Anatta while studying in Shedra with the Gelugpas. What trigger the insight for him was the hint that there is no self that will reincarnate.

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    Doxographical but they reflect and meditate on each level for months. I've led an online retreat/course on emptiness and witnessed first hand that experience meditators can be brought to Anatta in the matter of weeks (not with 100% efficiency meaning but most of the group) provided they get the right tools and are dilligent. Of course that's nothing compared to Pali Canon where we have people bigger achievements like full Arhatship in similar or shorter spans of time.

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  • Interesting

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  • Just to contribute to the discussion of “splitting hairs” about what realizations are achieved by different traditions & views:
    here’s an interesting thread where Geoff Shatz and a few others discuss commentarial ideas on radical momentariness, mostly pointing towards not being able to justify such a “momentariness” teaching on the basis of the early Pāli texts in the first place...
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    Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really? - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
    Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really? - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

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    Cittamatra doesn't lead to the bhumis, but its founder Asanga is traditionally claimed to had been on the 3rd bhumi. The 3rd Karmapa used both approaches (and apparently not hierarchically). Mahamudra is filled with "mind-only" pointers. Tenets are spiritual techniques reified into systems.
    Svatantrika and prasangika are supposed to have the exact same ultimate view (freedom from extremes), only different approaches to both ultimate and conventional. All this mapping and staging may keep people away from very valid instructions.

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  • Since I used the term "splitting hairs" in the first place, I'll clarify that what I meant was focusing on using just the right language to describe things rather than the realization that is pointed to. Actually, the Mipham quote on reddit
    Soh Wei Yu
    shared addresses exactly what I was thinking about: Yogacara texts say the dependent nature "exists" and Madhyamikas immediately cry "eternalism"! But there are two ways to interpret this, and one actually doesn't contradict the intent of Madhyamaka.
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      [1:03 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: "John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)"? What u mean?
      [1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think you mentioned before that yogacara is more towards the nondual effortless radiance but madhyamika puts aside that emphasis and is more on presence is empty in nature
      [1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: something like that
      [1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but i still dont really understand the differences lol havent studied them much
      [1:32 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: Yes. That is y I tell u don't anyhow comment. The reason y I tell u to focus on the 3 aspects of conceptualities is prevent u from wasting time on those tibetan polemics so that u don't lost track on what that is essential to practice. Some points r important and will trigger insights that bring abt greater release to mind attachments that r difficult and too subtle to detect while some r like what Tyler said "hairsplitting" or worst still, pure stereotyping and strawman agruments. I will go through with u later or write something about it. However at the rate u r sending me all these questions everyday, I dunno when can I even start to summarize as almost all my available free time r taken up by ur "haressments" 🤣🤣🤣.

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