Original Enlightenment and Original Nature is a wrong view / How did Ignorance originate etc


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2009:
(7:37 PM) AEN: namdrol says there cant be original enlightenment as that wld be the hindu teaching
or atman (Namdrol = acarya malcolm smith)
(7:38 PM) Thusness: yes because they see non-dual as enlightenment
(7:38 PM) AEN: oic
(7:39 PM) Thusness: u mean e-sangha ban them?
lol
(7:40 PM) AEN: yeah... alot of zen teachers and even moderators were banned during a period of time and e-sangha even received lawsuits thread etc
(7:40 PM) Thusness: by the way, that is also not hindu teachings
(7:40 PM) AEN: and members
oic
there were also other issues i think... some dun believe in rebirth etc... and some other things
(7:40 PM) AEN: im not exactly sure what happened
(7:40 PM) Thusness: that is neo-advaita teaching
(7:40 PM) AEN: oic
(7:41 PM) Thusness: because we are already enlightened so why practice?
(7:41 PM) Thusness: yet this will arise another insight
so this is also necessary
(7:42 PM) Thusness: first of all if this is not true, how is it that so many practitioners are claiming that?
(7:42 PM) AEN: they have the view of an inherent consciousness?
(7:43 PM) Thusness: there must b certain experience or incomplete realization that led practitioners to such a conclusion
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: it too is a koan.
(7:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:45 PM) Thusness: if one stops at One Mind, it will most likely end up concluding that way
(7:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness: yet it is also important that u come to the same conclusion. 🙂
just like I AMness
(7:49 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:49 PM) AEN: the original enlightenment is realised at non dual ?
(7:49 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:50 PM) AEN: icic
(7:50 PM) Thusness: i think i told u we do not have a perfect nature right?
(7:50 PM) Thusness: we have a dependent originated nature
(7:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:51 PM) AEN: but at the same time its spontaneously perfected?
(7:51 PM) Thusness: however it is also important that u arrive at the same conclusion as those zen practitioners
(7:51 PM) AEN: oic
(7:52 PM) Thusness: that is different
(7:52 PM) Thusness: i have already told u many times not to talk about spontaneous arising, liberation or perfection
(7:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:53 PM) Thusness: only after the direct insight of anatta and DO can u talk about that
(7:53 PM) Thusness: this I have emphasized many times to u
and written many times
(7:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:55 PM) Thusness: this is because after the insight of anatta and DO, u r already purified and clear of the wrong understanding
(7:56 PM) Thusness: ignorance is the cause of suffering, when it dissolves, u r naturally and spontaneously perfected
(7:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:58 PM) AEN: but even when there is ignorance, our nature is spontaneously perfected right, just not realised?
(7:59 PM) Thusness: nope..
(7:59 PM) AEN: oic what u mean
(7:59 PM) Thusness: to me yes, to u no
for i know what it meant
(8:01 PM) AEN: oic 
 
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Likewise that view is rejected in the text malcolm is explaining:
The Basis as Naturally Perfect 2.1.1.1.1 Nevertheless, first, the assertion of the basis as naturally perfect is confirmed by understanding the four wheels: [Thesis] Naturally perfect reality is unfragmented and whole. [Refutation] The refutation states that this assertion that the basis is naturally perfect is defective. If it is claimed that at the time of the cause [the basis] is naturally perfect, the result also will be naturally perfect, [15b] like the example of butter already being naturally perfect in milk. In the same way, is the cause established
or not established in the result? If it is established, the result becomes a cause. Since a result is then pointless, the cause (deluded sentient beings) would then turn into the result (buddhas). In that case, there would be no need for anyone to make effort. If the cause is not established in the result, the assertion of the natural perfection [of the basis] is defective. Further, if it is said, “[The basis] is established at the time of the cause, but it is not established at the time of the result,” then natural perfection would alternate and become a view that falls into the extremes of existence and nonexistence. If it is said, “Because [the basis] is naturally perfect, it isn’t anything at all,” then this is no different than the Cittamātra assertion that the dependent nature is ultimate. The Six Dimensions Tantra states: Since the cause and result are different, [the basis] too is not naturally
perfect. Likewise, if the cause and result were the same, effort would be meaningless. The two replies to the objection can be inferred. Here they will not be mentioned. Since the essence is pure from the beginning, saṃsāra is not established. [16a] Since the nature arises as a diversity, nirvāṇa is not established. Since the essence and nature are nondual, they are present as an intrinsic nature 64 that has never experienced delusion.
- buddhahood in this life, dzogchen book/text by vimalamitra translated by acarya malcolm smith
 
 
 
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Ignorance is the default state. Ignorance and all the 12 links of dependent origination arises from without beginning. From the perspective of Buddhadharma, ignorance does not start from this life, it is a chain of conditioning that is perpetuated without beginning. Otherwise we would not be reborn here in samsara, we would not be here in the first place. The suffering we have undergone in the cycle of rebirth is countless and beginningless https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN15_13.html
Through practice we start to discover this truth of dependent origination and no self. Later it is seen that what dependently originates do not originate, is empty.
 
 
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Another interesting post I saw by Arcaya Malcolm recently:

 

"Another interesting thing they do is try to show is that Dogen had a change of heart and rejected hongaku and BNI late in his life.

Noriaki cites this example, from the Shōbōgenzō shizen bhikkhu, as presented in Pruning the Bodhi Tree, pg. 123:

Some people say that, because the enlightenment of the Buddhas and Tathagatas encompass the whole world, even a speck of dust manifests that enlightenment. Because that enlightenment encompasses both subject and the object, mountains, rivers, earth, sun, moon, stars, and the four illusions and three poisons express it as well. To see mountains and rivers is to see the Tathagathas, and the four illusions and three poisons are the Buddha-dharma. To see a speck of dust is to see the dharma-dhatu and each spontaneous act is a manifestation of supreme enlightenment. They say this is the great understanding and call it a Patriarchal transmission. In latter-day Sung China, those who subscribe to this view are as numerous as rice plants, hemp. bamboo, and reeds. Their [religious] lineage is unknown, but it is clear they do not understand Buddhism.

All and all an interesting book, quite relevant to the present discussion.

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"Elsewhere, Malcolm also said with regards to hongaku ("original enlightenment"), "Definitely a wrong view, even in Dzogchen.", "Chinese Buddhism departs from Indian Buddhism in many respects. Still, the idea of "inherent awakening" is patently absurd and cannot be taken literally or seriously by any means." - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=19453&p=283507&hilit=hongaku#p283507

 

 

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No Buddha is Conscious of its Existence [of having a Perfect-nature]
"By his fifteenth year one burning question became the core around which his spiritual strivings revolved: "If, as the sutras say, our Essential-nature is Bodhi (perfection), why did all Buddhas have to strive for enlightenment and perfection?" His dissatisfaction with the answers he received at Mount Hiei led him eventually to Eisai-zenji, who had brought the teachings of the Rinzai sect of Zen Buddhism from China to Japan. Eisai's reply to Dogen's question was: "No Buddha is conscious of its existence [that is, of this Essential-nature], while cats and oxen [that is the grossly deluded] are aware of it." In other words, Buddhas, precisely because they are Buddhas, no longer think of having or not having a Perfect-nature; only the deluded think in such terms. At these words Dogen had an inner realization which dissolved his deep-seated doubt."
-- recommended reading, Yasutani-roshi's Introductory Lectures on Zen Training (it's a practical text on Zazen and Koan training)
 
 
This reminded me of what Thusness wrote to me in 2007:
(10:10 PM) Thusness: before experiencing non-dual, one cannot fully understand spontaneous arising.
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness: non-dual first then spontaneous arising and emptiness is deeper than that.
(10:11 PM) Thusness: it is not to say it is complete and perfect
(10:12 PM) Thusness: this is fall back to the background.
(10:12 PM) Thusness: now if u think carefully, isn't it the cognitive thought in action?
(10:13 PM) Thusness: it is the cognitive mind extrapolating it.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: one should not react to the teachings
(10:14 PM) Thusness: know emptiness without image, without concepts
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't think of existence or non-existence
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't think that it is perfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't assume that it is imperfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness: nothing of this sort.
(10:15 PM) Thusness: just arising and ceasing when condition is.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: then true naturalness will be experienced.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: there is nothing perfect about our nature, it is just so. Just our nature.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: luminosity and empty
(10:16 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:17 PM) Thusness: when condition is not there, nothing is there.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: there is no manifestation.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: neither existence nor non existence
(10:18 PM) Thusness: however X has already entered the path of prajna, ur center called it wu-wei fa.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: that is spontaneously arises, naturalness according to yuan.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: but why can't sleep?
(10:18 PM) Thusness: 😛
(10:18 PM) AEN: background?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: no what i meant why can't she sleep if naturalness is already there?
(10:19 PM) AEN: sinking to the source?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: if condition arises, why there is no sleep?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: just sleep
(10:19 PM) Thusness: coz all the conditions for sleep already manifest but she still can't sleep.
(10:20 PM) AEN: brb
(10:20 PM) Thusness: becoz there is another cause preventing her from entering sleep working at the pre-conscious level.
(10:20 PM) AEN: back
(10:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:20 PM) AEN: what kind of other cause
(10:21 PM) Thusness: the experience of "AMness"
(10:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness: sinking back to the source.
(10:21 PM) AEN: oic
(10:22 PM) Thusness: din u see she said about the xu kong (empty space)?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: as an illustration.
(10:22 PM) AEN: ya
(10:22 PM) Thusness: anyway just sui yuan. 🙂
(10:22 PM) Thusness: she is already 50+?
(10:22 PM) AEN: yup
(10:24 PM) Thusness: just sui yuan. But remember for ur practice, the practice of wu wei fa is like the xin jing. But understanding of emptiness must be like what i tell u.
(10:25 PM) Thusness: not because it is perfect or whatsoever, it is because the nature is so.
(10:25 PM) AEN: oic
(10:25 PM) Thusness: this must be the understanding.
(10:25 PM) Thusness: then c whether got yuan to experience non-dual...eheeh
(10:26 PM) Thusness: then fuse the 2 understandings.
(10:26 PM) Thusness: and experience intuitively..🙂
(10:28 PM) Thusness: now what is the most unique understanding u have all these years?
(10:30 PM) AEN: erm i dunno leh lol
(10:30 PM) AEN: i guess after i experience then it will become 'unique' 😛
(10:30 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:30 PM) Thusness: then what sort of knowledge u gathered so far?
(10:31 PM) AEN: non duality, impermanence, things like tat? naturalness?
(10:31 PM) Thusness: what is non-duality?
(10:31 PM) AEN: no self, no subject object division? no background?
(10:31 PM) Thusness: yes. 🙂
(10:32 PM) Thusness: non-duality is buddhism no-self
(10:32 PM) Thusness: no-self is a better word to me...ehehehe
(10:32 PM) AEN: oic haha
(10:32 PM) Thusness: there is really no-self
(10:33 PM) Thusness: and mindfulness purpose is to allow us to experience that
(10:33 PM) Thusness: why so?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: because there is no symbols
(10:33 PM) Thusness: because there is no content
(10:33 PM) Thusness: it is raw and bare attention.
(10:33 PM) Thusness: and 'self' is an image
(10:33 PM) Thusness: it is about content
(10:34 PM) Thusness: therefore when one is raw and imageless, yet there is knowing
(10:34 PM) Thusness: when this experience is sustained, there is absolutely no sense of self at all.
(10:34 PM) Thusness: this is the first level
(10:35 PM) Thusness: but there is still no experience of non-duality level of no-self
(10:35 PM) Thusness: until the manifestation alone is understood as really the source itself.
(10:35 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:36 PM) Thusness: then not only is mirror bright is fully understood, the breaking of the mirror is also understood.
(10:36 PM) Thusness: so this is only part of what i have always said.
(10:36 PM) Thusness: i always say there are 3 stages
(10:37 PM) Thusness: no-self, emptiness, spontaneous arising
(10:37 PM) Thusness: no-self is non-duality
(10:37 PM) Thusness: then emptiness
(10:37 PM) Thusness: u notice from beginning till now, i have always said that our nature is no where to be found.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: no who
(10:38 PM) Thusness: and no when.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: nothing like that
(10:38 PM) Thusness: when i said emptiness, it is always so and when condition arise, manifestation is.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: this is the emptiness i am toking about.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: nothing about complete perfect...
(10:39 PM) Thusness: i don't like to use these terms.
(10:39 PM) Thusness: have u seen me using such terms?
(10:40 PM) Thusness: instead i always say it is not that great
(10:40 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:40 PM) AEN: but complete perfect is just used to explained there is no need to attain anything right
(10:40 PM) Thusness: precisely
(10:40 PM) Thusness: there is no attainment. 🙂
(10:41 PM) Thusness: because we are free from beginning and there is no origination and there is no-self
(10:41 PM) Thusness: it is more of suffering when we 'seek'
(10:41 PM) Thusness: there is nothing inside nor outside
(10:41 PM) Thusness: nothing about complete or incomplete
(10:42 PM) Thusness: can we say the fire is in the matchstick?
(10:42 PM) Thusness: or the 'tree' is in a seed?
(10:42 PM) Thusness: this is viewing 'entity'
(10:42 PM) Thusness: and not understanding the importance of conditions
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: emptiness is supposed to break this view.
... 
 
 
    Soh Wei Yu
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    In hearing always only sound, no hearer. Sound is also empty of inherent existence.
    Sentient beings do not recognise the nature of appearance, misapprehends sound as object or “other”, misapprehends knowingness or awareness into self or a knower.
    Sounds and all other appearances are therefore are not perceived in its suchness. So samsara rolls on. Under ignorance one never has direct intimate luminous taste of a sound or a sight, nor its true nature as empty clarity.
    So in a sense yes we can say, it is just all these appearances we perceive that exhibits the truth of empty clarity, but their nature is not recognised and thus are misapprehended in terms of knower and knowable objects.
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    William Lim
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    Back to my question... If sound is only hearing and if it just so simple, why do everyone think that there is a hearer?

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    • William Lim
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    Here's a koan : If there is no duality, where do the subject comes from?

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Ignorance. Beginningless process of ignorance

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    • William Lim
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    Where do Ignorance comes from?

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    santa100
    Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?
    Quote
    Post Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 am
    They condition each other. From the same sutta:
    MN 9 wrote:
    And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering—this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration.
    And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are these three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being, and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
    And Ven. Bodhi's note:
    It should be noted that while ignorance is a condition for the taints, the taints—which include the taint of ignorance—are in turn a condition for ignorance. MA says that this conditioning of ignorance by ignorance should be understood to mean that the ignorance in any one existence is conditioned by the ignorance in the preceding existence. Since this is so, the conclusion follows that no first point can be discovered for ignorance, and thus that saṁsāra is without discernible beginning.

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    aṅguttara nikāya
    the book of the tens
    61. Ignorance
    “Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.
    “I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
    “Thus not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up lack of faith. Lack of faith, becoming full, fills up careless attention. Careless attention, becoming full, fills up lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fills up non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, becoming full, fill up the five hindrances. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
    “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma…. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
    “I say, bhikkhus, that (1) true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for true knowledge and liberation? It should be said: (2) the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of enlightenment? It should be said: (3) the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the four establishments of mindfulness? It should be said: (4) the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of good conduct? It should be said: (5) restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: (6) mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: (7) careful attention. Careful attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careful attention? It should be said: (8) faith. Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: (9) hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: (10) associating with good persons.
    “Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.
    “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma…. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Thirty
    Tiṁsa Sutta (SN 15:13)
    NAVIGATIONSuttas/SN/15:13
    Now on that occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Forest, the Squirrels’ Sanctuary. Then thirty monks from Pāva—all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all cast-off rag wearers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.
    Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “These thirty monks from Pāva… are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from effluents?”
    So he addressed the monks: “Monks.”
    “Yes, lord,” the monks responded.
    The Blessed One said, “From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?”
    “As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.”
    “Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.
    “This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off… when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off… when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off… when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off… when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off… when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries—enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”
    That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One’s words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pāva—through lack of clinging—were released from effluents.

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    • William Lim
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    Something must come from something mah... isn't that D.O.? How can be beginningless? What caused the primordial ignorance - one that has perpetuated to what is now global and widespread ignorance of 7 billion beings on this planet. Did Eve ate an apple from the Tree of Knowledge and caused this downfall?

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    If there were a beginning, that would completely contradict dependent origination. Precisely because everything depends on causes and conditions, there can be no beginning. This is why cosmologically speaking, Buddhism cannot accept big bang as the ultimate beginning, and many scientists now accept the model of cyclical universes.
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Session Start: Tuesday, October 14, 2008

 

(11:21 PM) Thusness:    We do not have an original nature, we have an empty nature.

(11:21 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:21 PM) Thusness:    That has no beginning nor end.

(11:22 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:23 PM) Thusness:    To visualize a purest state from start is a dualistic view.

(11:24 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness:    But it is not appropriate for u to answer this question yet.

(11:25 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:26 PM) Thusness:    For it contradicts with many claims of those masters that focus on luminosity and have not understood their empty nature.

(11:26 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:26 PM) AEN:              the poster follows korean zen, i tink zen master seung sahn etc

(11:29 PM) Thusness:    Getting 'lost' and becoming dualistic is natural when we develop those conditions that make us 'lost'

(11:29 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Being attached to our luminosity is one of the factor

(11:30 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:31 PM) Thusness:    The assumption that there is a purest state and we will not become dualistic is itself a dualistic view.

(11:32 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:32 PM) Thusness:    Luminous yet empty, this is our nature.

(11:32 PM) Thusness:    Understand?

(11:34 PM) AEN:              think so..

(11:38 PM) AEN:              so theres no purest state, when condition is there delusion manifest?

(11:38 PM) AEN:              btw u said i shldnt post this?

(11:42 PM) Thusness:    Yes

(11:43 PM) Thusness:    this is just to let u understand conceptually.

(11:44 PM) AEN:              icic.. ok

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    So that u r not trapped in a dualistic framework of understanding things.

(11:45 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:46 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:47 PM) Thusness:    When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:49 PM) Thusness:    Because ur views is still very much inherent/dualistic, you find it hard to understand.

(11:50 PM) Thusness:    Therefore whatever said is quickly distorted

(11:51 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:53 PM) Thusness:    let DO re-orientate u and practice 'dropping'

(11:54 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:54 PM) AEN:              ok

(11:56 PM) Thusness:    It takes many many years to re-orientate urself and u have to undergo those phases I told u. 

(11:56 PM) AEN:              oic.. which phases

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    the six stages

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    In which 5 and 6 are most important

(11:58 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    5 is the great stability.  You become non conceptual and experience directly

(11:59 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    Now u must practice 'dropping' and go non-conceptual.

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    But non-conceptuality should not be the object of practice,  it must be natural

(12:02 AM) Thusness:    It comes naturally after the arising of anatta insight

(12:03 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    And after that, give up all thoughts can continue to 'drop' till anatta is most clear and vivid

(12:03 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Till u become fully non-dual and non-conceptual

(12:04 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    U must practice dropping, it is safer.

(12:04 AM) AEN:             wat do u mean

(12:04 AM) AEN:             by it is safer

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    If u don't want to experience side effects, then learn 'dropping'

(12:05 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:05 AM) AEN:             what kind of side effects

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    Give up and let go

(12:06 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:06 AM) AEN:             when i meditate i can let go completely, and enter into an almost thoughtless state... but daily life v hard rite?

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    Till u r open to all sensations naturally, vividly and effortlessly

(12:07 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:07 AM) Thusness:    Difficult to tell u now lah

(12:08 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    U must summarize and be conceptually equipped with the right views first

(12:08 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    But these views are provisional 

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    but because we r so caught up in looking for meanings, we want to expand these views more then necessary

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    Then it becomes dangerous.

(12:10 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    It must go hand in hand with real experience.

(12:10 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    It can take few decades of practice b4 true insight dawns

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    take

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic...

(12:15 AM) AEN:             true insight as in prajna wisdom?

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    I go sleep liao

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Yes

 
 
 
Labels: 2 comments | | edit post
Three Levels of Understanding Reality

 Mr. M:

Awakening to reality ... how is anatta connected to reality? What i understand with reality is everywhere   etc.


Soh:

First realise the incredible realness of I AM. Next after realising no-self, one tastes the incredible realness of phenomena and does not sink back to a background. Later, realise the non-arising of that incredible realness.

Step 1: i amness as reality

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/05/reality-i-am-nondual-anatta-karmic.html

Reality, I AM, nondual, anatta, karmic constructs and mental proliferation: a conversation with John Tan

[4:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Tell me abt hire you understand in the past before engaging deeply into Buddhism.
[4:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What u understand
[4:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u say the tree exist, it is out there....how u feel and experience
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Feel like a separate observer interacting with an observer independent object out there.. everything about the tree including its shapes and colours just exist out there and are intrinsic attributes of the object
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also experience things from a distance as a self before anatta
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yes
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Even the sound we hear.
[4:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We don't actually examine and investigate deeply.
[4:57 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What happened in I M or I-I or just I and post that?
[4:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Theres a doubtless direct immediate taste of luminosity.. without concept or intermediary. Just a pure sense of presence
[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But for I AM just the thought realm and not as sound etc
[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m not talking about that
[5:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m talking about trees, separation, objects...as u said earlier...does it change anything
[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At the I AM level up to one mind, all phenomena are like passing clouds floating by from within a vast ground of being.. especially at I AM it still feels dualistic. At one mind everything is indistinguishable but there is not the clarity of view and no mind not fully stabilized. Anatta realization dissolves the background observer
[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At I AM and one mind i feel like the source out of which everything emerges
[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: At I M, do u feel things r still external?
[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes and the focus is on the internal sense of background beingness
[5:06 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just recall ur experience even after I M. Don't mixed up phases of insights and gross through.
[5:07 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Do u or do u not feel things r still external?
[5:09 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is a sense that they are contained or emerging from and subsiding within a formless container of pure being.. so things are in a sense within me but not me, still dualistic
I wrote about how i am not running past objects, the scenery is passing within me
[5:10 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So from before I M and post I M, what has changed?
[5:11 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM, i am a little person or ego residing inside the body relating to an object out there
After I AM, the body and mind and universe merely emerges and subsides from the source of pure beingness
[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Ok. Before that, what is reality to u?
[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And after that what do u mean by reality?
[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before that the identity self as well as objective world is reality
[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: After I AM, only the I AM is ultimately real. Everything else is just like projection of a movie on a movie screen
[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Before that reality is physical reality correct?
[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: After that I M is the Reality.
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah.. physical reality plus the sense of being a person relating to physical reality.. the person is also seen to be part of that
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from before I M to I M, what has changed?
[5:17 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM ignorance and karmic propensity projects ego and world as real... After I AM the intense luminosity is so real and overwhelming yet its nature is not understood, the mind with its ignorant mechanism of understanding reality then swaps the sense of identity and imputation onto the I AM. Then it turns into ultimate reality and background
[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't tell me on hindsight, tell me just before and after I M experience....don't tell me anything other thing...
[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r not focusing. from things being very physical to I M spiritual, what has happened?
[5:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r turning ur attention from external to internal right?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So what r the difference from before I M and After?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes focus on internal, just pure beingness
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Until what happened?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before i am focus is as a observer focusing outwards but dualistic
[5:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Until the four aspects of i am and then nondual insights.. the aspect of impersonality is not focused solely on internal but leads to a sense of universality, diffused and being lived. But its still dual here and attention is still mainly focused on internal and background.
What really changed is after nondual and especially anatta
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is the most important experience in I M?
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What must happen in I M?
[5:25 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: There is not even an M, just I... complete stillness, just I correct?
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Realization, certainty of being.. yes just stillness and doubtless sense of I/Existence
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And what is the complete stillness just I?
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Just I, just presence itself
[5:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This stillness absorbs excludes and includes everything into just I. What is that experience called?
[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I am everything?
[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That experience is non-dual.
[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And in that experience actually, there is no external nor internal, there is also no observer or observed.
[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just complete stillness as I.
[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah even I AM is nondual
[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That is ur first phase of a non dual experience.
[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We say this is the pure thought experience in stillness
[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Thought realm
[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But at that moment we don't know that...we treated that as ultimate reality.
[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I find it weird at that time when u said it is non conceptual thought
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yeah
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Lol
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now I dun want to mix up
[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But u really do not know what that encounter is...seems mystical
[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We thought it is damn special right🤣🤣🤣
[5:37 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah lol
[5:38 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now what about non-dual? What leads to non-dual for u before anatta?
[5:41 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The first breakthrough was when i was dancing on the nightclub.. at that time i was a little drunk but because i was dancing and listening to the music, the attention was shifted from background to foreground.. then the bahiya sutta came up in my mind and that triggered a vivid nondual experience and i understood that the taste of existence is not just background i amness but in everything.. then that nondual experience lasted two days before background witnessing returned. When i went to army in september i was contemplating the border and edge between manifestation and awareness a lot and i became increasingly certain that awareness is nondual and the nondual experience is stabilizing but it is not anatta yet. I realised anatta in october
[5:43 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from I M, is the not just a non-dual experience, u have en-counter clarity directly and without intermediary.
[5:44 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Therefore 明心 (apprehending Mind) or 验证本心 (experientially verifying the original Mind)
[5:45 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This is the most key insight but it requires a non-dual mode to 验证 (experiential verification)。
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So it is what I call 顿悟 (sudden awakening) also.
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now Reality in esoteric practice is referring to this reality.
[5:48 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When ur focus turned internal, u find that without this I, nothing is real, this is more real than real. Correct?
[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah
[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Only I AM is more real than real
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u turned from I M to non-dual, u r dissolving the line or layer that divides, when u dissolve that line, u have sort of non-dual experience.
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But that dissolving is not effortless, y?
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes.. i saw in august that the taste of reality and existence is also found in everything.. although the dualistic view and inherent view still hasnt gone through refinement
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is preventing u from have effortless non-dual, what exactly is causing the oscillation to and fro from background to foreground?
[5:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't talk about "inherent view"
[5:54 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The very strong tendency to view that I AM as eternal witness and ultimate reality is still there.. so without a breakthrough in view i returned to witnessing after 2 days until insights into nondual deepen
[5:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U don't have to know about "emptiness" or "inherent view", u can just contemplate on certain koans and stanzas. What must happen for effortlessness to happen?
[5:57 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Insight into anatta leads to effortlessness
[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is anatta?
[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is seen through?
[5:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In seeing just the seen.. i saw through the sense of a seer besides seeing or seeing besides seen.. the subject-action-object and background/foreground paradigm is seen through and therefore i realise and actualized awareness as pure manifestation
[6:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r two important points, seeing through self/Self and seeing through subject-action-object, any difference?
[6:02 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Subject/object if seen as undivided can still end up in one mind, seeing through self/Self dissolves the construct via realisation into mere luminous manifestation and aggregates
[6:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like chariot except i wasnt thinking of that analogy at that time
[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But anatta properly seen dissolves subject-action-object
[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: (referring to Chariot) This is much more deeper
[6:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This seeing through, what did u understand?
[6:07 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The emptiness of the construct of self/Self and awareness, as well as subject-action-object structure.. seeing through the emptiness of awareness as background and realising and actualising luminous taste as manifestation.. also at that time no agency and two stanza becoming clearer. One week later the same insight of anatta applied on mind body led to mind body drop
[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 1. U see through constructs
2. U understand the relationship between constructs and experience
3. What else???
[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What did i tell u?
[6:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm not sure.. after that no mind and luminous taste becomes effortless mode rather than efforting
[6:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The power of constructs, how it creates an experience so real and so convincing, how it blinds. U cannot just look at just one side of the coin.
[6:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah i had a better understanding of the power of constructs a year after that
[6:17 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: If u do not understand the power of constructs, u r only knowing half. It is the process of forming and dissolving these constructs in relation to consciousness creating all the one mind, no mind, anatta, non-dual experiences.
[6:18 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And u r always overcoming those, so know the power and know the way of overcoming and what do u call that?
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Prajna?
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Wisdom
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Karmic propensities?
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Bond
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ignorance
[6:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U can say all that...but what do u call these constructs in Buddhism?
[6:25 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Mental proliferation?
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 造作
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Means what?
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Mental proliferation means what?
[6:27 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into reality
[6:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into experience...
[6:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r 2 one is releasing these constructs, the other is the post releasing...so what r the difference?
[6:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The actual experience post releasing
[6:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And the question is emptiness and DO just seeing through these constructs? Or is there something more?
[6:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u see through the background, u don't just experience vivid effortless non-dual experiences. But u always realize all along there isn't any self behind, just this activity of on going proliferation ... And the freedom of it. When it is free...what is experience like?



Step 2: no-self and the incredible realness of phenomena

in seeing there is always just scenery, no seer, and in hearing, always just sounds, no hearer
2006:
Practitioners should never mistake this as the true Buddha Mind! "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion. The sinking back to a background or Source is due to being blinded by strong karmic propensities of a 'Self'. It is a layer of ‘bond’ that prevents us from ‘seeing’ something…it is very subtle, very thin, very fine…it goes almost undetected. What this ‘bond’ does is it prevents us from ‘seeing’ what “WITNESS” really is and makes us constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center. Every moment we want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is habitual and almost hypnotic.
But what exactly is this “witness” we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source! Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is really it. There is nothing to choose.
There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!
In between “I AMness” and no “Mirror Reflecting”, there is another distinct phase I would name it as “Mirror Bright Clarity”. The Eternal Witness is experienced as a formless crystal clear mirror reflecting all phenomenon existence. There is a clear knowledge that ‘self’ does not exist but the last trace of the karmic propensity of ‘self’ is still not completely eliminated. It resides in a very subtle level. In no mirror reflecting, the karmic propensity of ‘self’ is loosen to a great extent and the true nature of the Witness is seen. All along there is no Witness witnessing anything, the manifestation alone is. There is only One. The second hand does not exist…
There is no invisible witness hiding anywhere. Whenever we attempt to fall back to an invisible transparent image, it is again the mind game of thought. It is the ‘bond’ at work.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../mistaken...
2006:
(6:19 PM) John: The step forward is to get oneself dissolved by the incredible realness and vividness of the phenomenal world. This is the only way and do not fall back to a source because that fallback itself is conceptual; the source is in the realness and vividness of the manifestation. This must be done until phenomenal arising and ceasing become one unbelievable realness of mere happening. Dwell completel
(6:20 PM) John: Dwell completely into it and intuitively experience that all arising are but the manifestation of the One mind that is no-mind, this is the entire purpose of no-self. This is called the ‘turning back’. Depending on a practitioner condition, he/she might not able to get used to it initially but stabilization will come eventually. It might take 2-3 years.
(6:20 PM) John: Do take note that this is experiencing the source according to the prevailing conditions within the limitation of the 5 senses. But if you conceptualize it, you retrogress. After that, pre-conscious propensities will take place….the capacity to understand what you asked will come with the 6 powers that is pre-symobolic if you go beyond the pre-conscious propensities. Happy Journey.
(6:59 PM) AEN: 2 stage as in tozan's one?
(6:59 PM) John: yeah...
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic
(7:01 PM) John: actually the first stage is like "I AMness"
(7:01 PM) John: until the deepest aspect
(7:01 PM) AEN: yup
(7:01 PM) John: read all my msgs to longchen
(7:02 PM) John: i kept emphasizing the manifestation not the source
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. 😛
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
(7:08 PM) AEN: in the forum?
(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(7:08 PM) John: yeah
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:12 PM) John: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain.
(7:12 PM) John: actually after the 2nd stage...already like that...
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:13 PM) John: therefore i might be looking the hairs of a tortoise
(7:13 PM) John: 😛
(7:13 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(7:13 PM) John: this is the 4th stage...ahahah
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic
(7:13 PM) John: i m looking for someone that can write about this. 😛
(7:14 PM) AEN: about what
(7:14 PM) AEN: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain. ?
(7:14 PM) John: actually can't be written lah
(7:14 PM) John: got to meet up.
(7:14 PM) AEN: ?
(7:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:13 PM) AEN: there??
(10:13 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight...
(10:13 PM) AEN: bob replied
(10:13 PM) AEN: lol
(10:14 PM) John: 🙂
(10:15 PM) John: If longchen hasn't gone beyond this stage, then he really has to work hard. But out of respect...hehehe he might not say anything.
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.BLOGSPOT.COM
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"


Step 3: emptiness and nonarising

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/12/you-are-not-god.html

[9:42 AM, 12/4/2020] John Tan: Quite good, very good in fact until anatta, . However emptiness part, still need refinement.
[9:55 AM, 12/4/2020] John Tan: Insights of emptiness of non-inherent existence vs freedom from extremes. Tsongkhapa VS Gorampa/Mipham r both abt the fine nuance of emptiness. Different insights, different experiences but r both r very very deep and profound to understand the differents in experiences and views. Anatta deals with both but to integrate both, require some conceptual views. Actually mmk is a very important text however the way it is presented by most philosophers or translators r just horrible. It is linked to the 3 deconstructions of conceptualities I told u.
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Soh Wei Yu
Related, 3 deconstructions:
- division
- inherency
- semantics
[5:48 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Keep seeing and tasting what appears r nothing real. Not only there is no sense of observer and observed, sounds, sensations and everything lost their "semantics" and "meanings" and fully absorbed as this empty non-arisen taste.
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic...
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: This is unlike just sound, colors...etc
From old conversation:
[1:19 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: "Realness" as in the taste of incredible vividness, clear, lurid appearances. However it is the taste of crystal, vividness but realising it is nothing "real" that is most interesting. Empty of essence, luminous by nature is magic of wonderous manifestions and spontaneous perfection.
[1:20 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
[1:25 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Nevertheless, if "realness" leads to total openness in authenticating sensations, colors, taste, smell...etc...then by all means...🤣
[1:58 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: One is seeing through reification of constructs, the other is the experiential taste of empty and arisen of what appears.
[2:03 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Tasting the "realness" of what appears and what appears is nothing real r two different insights. I wrote these b4.
[2:04 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: experiential taste of empty and arisen?
[2:05 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../daniel-post-on...
[2:06 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Non-arisen
[2:06 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
[2:13 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a 🌈. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
1. Very "vivid", pellucid
2. Nothing real
Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
[2:15 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[2:18 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: But no need to over emphasize to others.
[2:19 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: As it is too difficult to express the taste...lol
[2:45 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[5:23 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It just occurred to me
[5:23 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The whole universe is just burning light of empty clarity. Its literally like a flame burning due to dependent origination
[5:24 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its like rainbow but rather than static is dynamically changing and flickering yet without anything arisen or abiding or ceasing
[5:25 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No origination or destination can be found either
[5:25 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I think empty clarity is quite familiar to me by now but somehow this analogy just came up
[5:26 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Changing is also conventional of course
[5:36 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: There is no end to the depth on the illusionariness of what appears. Focusing on realness will only end up in pce.
[5:37 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. yeah
[5:38 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Actually pce is already like a natural state here
[5:38 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But its not pce with physicality but empty clarity
[5:38 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:40 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Do u feel like passing through walls and the whole realm r not in any dimension?
[5:41 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Thats what i dont understand. Malcolm yesterday related empty clarity to passing through walls. I cannot do it lol except maybe in lucid dreams or what
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Did he say that?
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Interesting
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Lol what another coincidence
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: 🤣🤣🤣
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:43 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whole realm are not anywhere... yes
[5:48 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Keep seeing and tasting what appears r nothing real. Not only there is no sense of observer and observed, sounds, sensations and everything lost their "semantics" and "meanings" and fully absorbed as this empty non-arisen taste.
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic...
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: This is unlike just sound, colors...etc
John Tan: There is no end to the depth on the illusionariness of what appears. Focusing on realness will only end up in pce.

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Scott Kiloby and Emptiness of Awareness/Anatta

 On the thread https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/4869178826456842/?__cft__[0]=AZXLy48f2crzwUoMeB9-uZN1HGZJPvSYu8ahKztfQ8gaACwOtzakD1MQB79JhCzbcJxecXo43FiZSrbx7MDV1KL8-GIa5DWsUNhn6YV5YcFDPh1_gvZVH4QhsteI-7U4Ztr21GpUyFJCHI-lDvqapUEOdYB7OmJBVeI98Cur7RgL5-pYH5WUD9pPoUwpOnQN-LM&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R 

 

I wrote:

  • Yes but even vidya or rigpa is exhausted in the case of anatta. There is no unchanging awareness involved. Awareness if used as a word is merely a convention like weather.
    I wrote previously:
    “Particularly, phenomena is defined as objects with characteristics. That is why they are exhausted, but not pure appearances. As the Dzogchen texts and Malcolm explained, even rigpa/vidya as a knower is exhausted at the end of the path when the out-of-phase duality between vidya and dhatu collapses. There is no unchanging awareness
    ...
    Another interesting 'technical' point since this is DhO. There was a point in his retreat where Arcaya Malcolm Smith described how at the mature phase of Dzogchen practice, the 'vidya'/'rigpa' (the knowing/knowledge) is exhausted where the vidya and dhatu (something like knowing and field of experience) totally collapsed in a 1:1 synchrony (and he gestured two circles coming together), whereas before that point [the exhaustion of vidya] there is a sort of out of phase issue between vidya and dhatu....
    ... His student Kyle did inform me that it is the same as what I call anatta realization [which I realised almost 10 years ago, it is the same as MCTB's fourth path]. Also, Malcolm mentioned many people have the wrong idea that Vidya/Rigpa is some eternal thing that just goes on forever, but it too is exhausted later along with all other phenomena [although this is not annihilation as appearances/pure vision still manifest] (elaboration: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../acarya-malcolm... )”
    ...
    Scott Kiloby this year: Some nondual teachings say that you (awareness) are like the
    screen on which the movie of “self” plays! Rubbish. You can’t split the universe. Only thoughts say there’s a split! There’s no separation between you-the screen-and the movie of self! This is love! Don’t try to understand this. Experience it!
    Also can you see where bypassing comes in when you try to split the universe between awareness and what arises to awareness? Things hide in our unconscious. Believing that you are the awareness is a great way to keep things hidden from view!
    August 2010:
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: for example u see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.
    (11:09 PM) AEN: oic.. ya
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization
    (11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
    Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
    leave appearances alone:
    The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    -Tilopa
    this is very good
    (11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    ask luckystrikes
    (11:52 PM) AEN: ok
    (11:55 PM) AEN: posted
    (12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.
    (12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.
    (12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta
    (12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:32 AM) Thusness: what left in is the intensity of practice.
    (12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness
    ....
    The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    On awareness as weather:
    14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
    14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
    14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
    14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
    14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
    14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
    14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
    14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
    14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
    14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
    14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
    14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
    14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
    14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
    14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
    14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
    14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
    14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
    14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
    14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
    14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
    14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
    14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
    14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
    14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts




    ...............



    2007:
    (10:50 PM) Thusness: at the more refine level of non dual experience, when the sense of self is gone to a great level, there is absolutely nothing but only everything...what does that mean?
    (10:50 PM) Thusness: many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual.
    (10:51 PM) AEN: not where?
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: he must feel completely nothing and only the 'concreteness', 'solidness', realness...
    (10:51 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: must feel the 'solidness' and that is things....
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: that is awareness
    (10:51 PM) AEN: oic
    (10:52 PM) AEN: Thusness says:
    many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual. --> huh not where?
    (10:52 PM) Thusness: there are different level of non-dual experience.
    (10:52 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:53 PM) Thusness: feeling crystal clarity and 'no one there' is the same as only the solidness, hardness, sound, vividness, realness.
    (10:54 PM) Thusness: that 'sense of self' must be completely gone. 🙂
    (10:55 PM) Thusness: u must remember this.
    (10:55 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:55 PM) AEN: this is like mindfulness rite
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: so now u know why buddha teach mindfulness?
    (10:56 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: and why advaita din. 🙂
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: this is important.
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: it is the direct way
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: u c, the teaching and the practice is in line.
    (10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: so non-dual as in no-self.
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: into impermanence and just the manifestation and DO
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: and authenticate this with insight meditation.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: however it is taught wrongly. 😛
    (10:58 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: but when one experience deeper and understand better, why buddha taught and said those things will become clear.
    (10:58 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: u will realise that advaita always tok about the Self.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: but when a person tat is enlightened, he doesn't like to use this word.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: Self is a by-product.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is the production of thought.
    (10:59 PM) AEN: no leh ppl like nisargadatta still always talk about it
    (10:59 PM) AEN: hahaha
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: even if u call it Brahman, it is still sinking back to a source.
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: but when one gets clearer and clearer, and know more about manifestation
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: there is only arising and ceasing of phenomenon according to conditions
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: that is dharmakaya
    (11:00 PM) AEN: icic
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: it is understood in crystal clarity.
    (11:01 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: just understand that there is no self until it sinks to the inmost consciousness.
    (11:03 PM) Thusness: and know the different layers of consciousness but do not think that it is different type of consciousness
    (11:03 PM) AEN: icic..
    “While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
    “The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
    - Ted Biringer
    “It is extremely difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this ‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’ creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness. It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007
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