Soh Wei Yu

In hearing always only sound, no hearer. Sound is also empty of inherent existence.
Sentient beings do not recognise the nature of appearance, misapprehends sound as object or “other”, misapprehends knowingness or awareness into self or a knower.
Sounds and all other appearances are therefore are not perceived in its suchness. So samsara rolls on. Under ignorance one never has direct intimate luminous taste of a sound or a sight, nor its true nature as empty clarity.
So in a sense yes we can say, it is just all these appearances we perceive that exhibits the truth of empty clarity, but their nature is not recognised and thus are misapprehended in terms of knower and knowable objects.

2
• 
  
•  · 
  Reply
•  · 23h
•  · 
  Edited
• 
  
William Lim
Author
Back to my question... If sound is only hearing and if it just so simple, why do everyone think that there is a hearer?
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
William Lim
Author
Here's a koan : If there is no duality, where do the subject comes from?
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
Soh Wei Yu

William Lim
Ignorance. Beginningless process of ignorance
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
William Lim
Author
Where do Ignorance comes from?
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
  •  · 
    Edited
• 
  
Soh Wei Yu

William Lim
santa100
Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?
Quote
Post Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 am
They condition each other. From the same sutta:
MN 9 wrote:
And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering—this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration.
And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are these three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being, and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
And Ven. Bodhi's note:
It should be noted that while ignorance is a condition for the taints, the taints—which include the taint of ignorance—are in turn a condition for ignorance. MA says that this conditioning of ignorance by ignorance should be understood to mean that the ignorance in any one existence is conditioned by the ignorance in the preceding existence. Since this is so, the conclusion follows that no first point can be discovered for ignorance, and thus that saṁsāra is without discernible beginning.
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
Soh Wei Yu

aṅguttara nikāya
the book of the tens
61. Ignorance
“Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.
“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
“Thus not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up lack of faith. Lack of faith, becoming full, fills up careless attention. Careless attention, becoming full, fills up lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fills up non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, becoming full, fill up the five hindrances. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
“Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma…. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
“I say, bhikkhus, that (1) true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for true knowledge and liberation? It should be said: (2) the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of enlightenment? It should be said: (3) the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the four establishments of mindfulness? It should be said: (4) the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of good conduct? It should be said: (5) restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: (6) mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: (7) careful attention. Careful attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careful attention? It should be said: (8) faith. Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: (9) hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: (10) associating with good persons.
“Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.
“Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma…. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
Soh Wei Yu

Thirty
Tiṁsa Sutta (SN 15:13)
NAVIGATIONSuttas/SN/15:13
Now on that occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Forest, the Squirrels’ Sanctuary. Then thirty monks from Pāva—all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all cast-off rag wearers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.
Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “These thirty monks from Pāva… are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from effluents?”
So he addressed the monks: “Monks.”
“Yes, lord,” the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, “From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?”
“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.”
“Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.
“This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.
“The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
“The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off… when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off… when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off… when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off… when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off… when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
“The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
“Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries—enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One’s words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pāva—through lack of clinging—were released from effluents.
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
• 
  
William Lim
Author
Something must come from something mah... isn't that D.O.? How can be beginningless? What caused the primordial ignorance - one that has perpetuated to what is now global and widespread ignorance of 7 billion beings on this planet. Did Eve ate an apple from the Tree of Knowledge and caused this downfall?
• 
  
• •  · 
    Reply
  •  · 6h
  •  · 
    Edited
• 
  
Soh Wei Yu

William Lim
If there were a beginning, that would completely contradict dependent origination. Precisely because everything depends on causes and conditions, there can be no beginning. This is why cosmologically speaking, Buddhism cannot accept big bang as the ultimate beginning, and many scientists now accept the model of cyclical universes.

1
• 
  
•  · 
  Reply
•  · 6h

...

Session Start: Tuesday, October 14, 2008

(11:21 PM) Thusness:    We do not have an original nature, we have an empty nature.

(11:21 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:21 PM) Thusness:    That has no beginning nor end.

(11:22 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:23 PM) Thusness:    To visualize a purest state from start is a dualistic view.

(11:24 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness:    But it is not appropriate for u to answer this question yet.

(11:25 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:26 PM) Thusness:    For it contradicts with many claims of those masters that focus on luminosity and have not understood their empty nature.

(11:26 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:26 PM) AEN:              the poster follows korean zen, i tink zen master seung sahn etc

(11:29 PM) Thusness:    Getting 'lost' and becoming dualistic is natural when we develop those conditions that make us 'lost'

(11:29 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:30 PM) Thusness:    Being attached to our luminosity is one of the factor

(11:30 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:31 PM) Thusness:    The assumption that there is a purest state and we will not become dualistic is itself a dualistic view.

(11:32 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:32 PM) Thusness:    Luminous yet empty, this is our nature.

(11:32 PM) Thusness:    Understand?

(11:34 PM) AEN:              think so..

(11:38 PM) AEN:              so theres no purest state, when condition is there delusion manifest?

(11:38 PM) AEN:              btw u said i shldnt post this?

(11:42 PM) Thusness:    Yes

(11:43 PM) Thusness:    this is just to let u understand conceptually.

(11:44 PM) AEN:              icic.. ok

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    So that u r not trapped in a dualistic framework of understanding things.

(11:45 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:45 PM) Thusness:    When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:46 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:47 PM) Thusness:    When DO replaces the dualistic framework, we will understand naturally.

(11:49 PM) Thusness:    Because ur views is still very much inherent/dualistic, you find it hard to understand.

(11:50 PM) Thusness:    Therefore whatever said is quickly distorted

(11:51 PM) AEN:              oic..

(11:53 PM) Thusness:    let DO re-orientate u and practice 'dropping'

(11:54 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:54 PM) AEN:              ok

(11:56 PM) Thusness:    It takes many many years to re-orientate urself and u have to undergo those phases I told u. 

(11:56 PM) AEN:              oic.. which phases

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    the six stages

(11:57 PM) Thusness:    In which 5 and 6 are most important

(11:58 PM) AEN:              icic..

(11:58 PM) Thusness:    5 is the great stability.  You become non conceptual and experience directly

(11:59 PM) AEN:              oic..

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    Now u must practice 'dropping' and go non-conceptual.

(12:01 AM) Thusness:    But non-conceptuality should not be the object of practice,  it must be natural

(12:02 AM) Thusness:    It comes naturally after the arising of anatta insight

(12:03 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    And after that, give up all thoughts can continue to 'drop' till anatta is most clear and vivid

(12:03 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Till u become fully non-dual and non-conceptual

(12:04 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:04 AM) Thusness:    U must practice dropping, it is safer.

(12:04 AM) AEN:             wat do u mean

(12:04 AM) AEN:             by it is safer

(12:05 AM) Thusness:    If u don't want to experience side effects, then learn 'dropping'

(12:05 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:05 AM) AEN:             what kind of side effects

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    Give up and let go

(12:06 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:06 AM) AEN:             when i meditate i can let go completely, and enter into an almost thoughtless state... but daily life v hard rite?

(12:06 AM) Thusness:    Till u r open to all sensations naturally, vividly and effortlessly

(12:07 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:07 AM) Thusness:    Difficult to tell u now lah

(12:08 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    U must summarize and be conceptually equipped with the right views first

(12:08 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:08 AM) Thusness:    But these views are provisional 

(12:09 AM) Thusness:    but because we r so caught up in looking for meanings, we want to expand these views more then necessary

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    Then it becomes dangerous.

(12:10 AM) AEN:             oic..

(12:10 AM) Thusness:    It must go hand in hand with real experience.

(12:10 AM) AEN:             icic..

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    It can take few decades of practice b4 true insight dawns

(12:11 AM) Thusness:    take

(12:13 AM) AEN:             oic...

(12:15 AM) AEN:             true insight as in prajna wisdom?

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    I go sleep liao

(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Yes