Link to Beacon of Certainty: https://www.amazon.com/Miphams-Beacon-Certainty-Illuminating-Perfection/dp/0861711572

[11:16 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Btw i told X its hard for Y to realise anatta, [snipped]
[11:20 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: I need to find a day to write abt mmk 2 truth model, the more I look at it the more beauty I see...lol
[11:21 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: It is fortunate that u have insight into anatta
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: What u lack is a strong view to articulate the experiences and insights without falling into extremes.
[11:23 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[11:24 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: So far I can't find a teacher or books that can beautifully blend the whole thing together.  Mipham is the closest I can get.
[11:26 AM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. was actually planning to read mipham book during my reservist
[11:35 AM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Read beacon of certainty, dialectics u need to have some background
[12:14 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ok
[7:24 PM, 3/26/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Andre wrote:

This [in the link] is a good introduction and "meaning commentary" to the text. I'm intending to read Beacon's root text and commentary, I've just read the long introduction by Petitt.

Soh Wei Yu also consider reading Mipham's introduction to Shantarakshita's Adornment of the Middle Way. I'm always saying this, I think it's pretty good. There's a lot of overlapping between these 2 texts.

https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Certainty-Quintessence-Dzogchen-Exploration/dp/1614290091/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Journey+to+Certainty&qid=1616755380&sr=8-1
[7:34 PM, 3/26/2021] John Tan: Shantarashita adorenment is also good..and introduction to the middle way since u always like to talk about bhumis since the middle way is  also chandrakirti's commentary on the bhumis.  🤣

..................

“[9:36 AM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: In Mipham beacon of certainty, there is a section of verses using cow and horse analogy to illustrate this point of watermoon.  He used this to refute shentong view.

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: The cow and horse is at the 84 page

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Refuting shentong I think

[9:17 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[9:18 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: However it is a clear indication of no mirror insight, only reflection.

[9:18 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic.. u mean mipham described the no mirror insight there?

[9:19 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Unless u understand the illustration.

[9:19 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: It's is watermoon analogy.”

..................

Soh:

Before reading Beacon of Certainty, one may also start with the shorter book which is also recommended by John Tan: Jamgon Mipham https://www.amazon.com/Jamgon-Mipam-His-Life-Teachings/dp/1590306694

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“Purity, primordial state, suchness

[5:11 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yes, whatever appears is naturally pure. However this purity is beyond verbalization, conceptualization and duality. Only when both self and phenomena are both exhausted then this primordial and natural state is self-evident.

[5:14 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Our mind is terribly confused by linguistic constructs yet raw and dry non-conceptuality with no insights can't relinquish conceptualization. So how to go about it?

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I mean thorough exhaustion.

[5:16 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:17 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Some of the texts sounds like advaita unless understood as nature of mind or empty clarity

[5:17 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yeah also so.

[5:19 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Translations always have this issue. Especially studying mmk with all the numerous explanations, translations and interpretations by scholars, masters and translators...lol

[5:20 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: But it does say it is free from extremes:

[5:20 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:22 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: So from practice perspective, I think just study one system and follow it's pedagogy, methodology and praxis otherwise it can be very confusing when studying the views of the various schools.

[5:24 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:25 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: These sounds like advaita unless clarified

[5:33 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[5:33 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yeah I never appreciate all these as the important step is to realize how conventional constructs confuse the thinking mind. Purity, primordial state, suchness before creation all are referring to freedom and exhaustion of these mental proliferations.

So without clear understanding of the conventional, it is pointless to talk about the ultimate.

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: But seems like malcolm books and translations on dzogchen are quite clear and distinct from advaita view

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: Yes.

[5:37 PM, 5/22/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Like buddhahood in this life carefully goes through all the false views of basis and refutes them

[5:38 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: U have gone through the whole book?

[5:38 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I just bought Mipham on Buddha nature

[5:40 PM, 5/22/2021] John Tan: I will buy and focus on books by Mipham as it is really inline with anatta insights and some Malcolm translations which I find more accurate.”

“The beginning part about cause and effect is very important.  However 慧律法师 always only talk about highest teachings, not many will understand.  In Mipham "beacon of certainty" he spoke about "certainty" and this "certainty" comes from analysis, not simply from non-dual experiences and insights.  It is this step by step analytical certainty that brings about "cessation" of mind's proliferation -- analytical cessation.

For sutrayana I think 慧律法师 lacks these intermediate step by step analysis of the sutrayana.  The cessation of analysis into direct experience through insight is a different approach, much like the 2 stanzas of ATR.  Both are important.” – John Tan

Andre:

One may think that a laptop is empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions, but *now that it has arisen* it's actually 'here in front of us and is made of matter, it's black, it has a certain weight and it's square-shaped'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Instead of "empty because it *arose* dependent on conditions", should also contemplate deeply the opposite : empty therefore dependent on conditions are possible.
End-->-->-->-->

But we're told that the laptop is empty in the sense that it has *never arisen*. What could it mean?

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
When we use the term "non-arisen", we are talking about the traditional two truth model so we must look at both the ultimate and conventional nature.  In ultimate analysis the "laptop" is empty and non-arisen; conventionally the "laptop" arose and the only valid mode of arising is via causes and conditions.

We follow the view and its praxis until the nature of mind and phenomena is clearly understood analytically.  Until gnosis (prajna) is able to intuitive emptiness free from extremes/conceptualities/all elaborations.

Take note that the path of non affirmative negation is only part of the story and to Mipham without seeing coalescence of appearance  and emptiness, it is considered notional emptiness.  He  presents the 4 stages of Madhyamaka experiences as emptiness --> coalescence --> lack of elaborations --> equality.   

It is a gradual approach where the insight and experience of former phase will form the foundation for the next phase to arise until the non-conceptual gnosis of spontaneous presence is realized.

What lies after is the pure, unfabricated, uncontrieved view of spontaneous presence which is inexpressible since it is beyond all notions and elaborations.

I think these 4 phases r extremely helpful pointers for ATR ppl post anatta insight.  Before that, the nature of mind and phenomena is still unclear.  For u, the insights and experiences are there but the view is still very weak and needs lots of refinement.  This is not ur fault, me included (🤣) as we start from koan and contemplate on short stanzas.  However if u want to have firmed and stable progress, u got to keep refining Ur view.
End-->-->-->-->

I don't fully understand non-arising yet, but I'd say it means that the laptop isn't actually solid or made of matter, even as it's resting right in front of us and we touch it. If it was actually made of matter, then it wouldn't be empty - it would have an intrinsic characteristic. But we're told in the Heart Sutra that 'form is emptiness'. So, form itself is devoid of nature, so it isn't truly form - it only appears so. And if the form element is empty, no object can possess it as an intrinsic characteristic.

Since mind and matter originates in dependence, investigated mind instead of matter. Emptiness without

Moreover, the laptop being material depends on being perceived by a non-material consciousness, so its materiality doesn't stand alone; it must be cognized externally as to be established - it's not self-established. The same with its being square or 'in front of us'. Likewise, consciousness does not stand alone - it requires the laptop so as to be able to 'arise as perception of laptop'.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
One point to take note here is when Nagarjuna talked about dependency, it is not just nominal dependency but also existential dependency.  Like the comment I made on Andre previous post:-

This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" WITHOUT conceptual constructs is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed.  For without "externality", how does the sense of "internality" arise?  If they r dependent, how could they exist truly?

The seeing through of their dependent designations also renders the seeing through of their existence.
End-->-->-->-->

That the laptop is square-shaped is a notion imputed onto the vivid clarity of experience. That it's black likewise; that it's out there too.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Vivid clarity isn't within the scope of mmk.  However Mipham has two models of two truth, one is the traditional madhyamaka 2 truth model and second is the authentic(non-dual non-inherent non-conceptual)/inauthentic experiential model.  Andre's previous poem of equating DO with spontaneous presence belongs more to the second model.
-->-->-->-->

I think the point is to empty all appearances of any notion that we might want to impute on them. Why? It reduces grasping and thus suffering. And, importantly, it opens the door to the transformation of experience. We're told that, in full enlightenment, experience sheds off its 'mortal skin' of ordinary body-mind and transforms into enlightened bodies and wisdom. That can't happen if experience is framed in confined structures of subject and object, mind and matter, limited and unlimited, space and time, etc. We can't wake up from a dream while still believing some aspects of it to be real, even if we've seen through the dream-character and some parts of the landscape.

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Relating grasping and suffering to imputations is more than a matter of logical deduction.  

We can deduced by asking:
how does the mind grasp at all when conditioned existence r seen through?

How does mind grasp when it is free from all fabricated notions and elaborations?  

We may also conclude that in fact mind comes to a total cessation when it's free from all elaborations.

But from practice point of view (imo), we must be thoroughly convinced and taste through experience that each conceptual construct has a set of emotional weights associated with it.  Be it "self", "phenomena", "arising", "production", "existence" ...etc.  Some releases r as powerful as anatta and mind-body dropped, some r like putting down a heavy load and often accompanied by a light sense of joy.  This point was very well described and articulated by Aditya Prasad.
-->-->-->-->

"Don't try to bend the spoon, it's impossible. Instead, realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon."

Ans by John Tan-->-->-->-->
Tell Andre to eat his food with his "spoon"! 🤣
-->-->-->-->

Update:

Also relevant:

At the time of his enlightenment, Zen Master Huangpo said, "When I hear the sound of the bell ringing, there is no bell, and also no I, only ringing-sound."

 The two truths meet everywhere.

- Dependent origination refutes

Both extreme views of is and is-not.

- Appearance and emptiness are united

As the scent that is experience.

- Clarity and limitlessness are inseparable

As the nature of mind.

.

Mind as clarity is nothing

But experience as appearingness.

Experience as emptiness is nothing

But limitlessness as mind.

.

Clarity-appearance is nothing but origination.

Empty-limitlessness is nothing but dependency.

The diving into the nature of mind is nothing

But the embracing of dependent origination.

.

A feather slowly floats its way towards the ground;

The breeze makes the trees sway;

A sound suddenly pierces the silence;

That itself is the nature of mind.

.

The very pulsing of dependent origination

Is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.

Like blood and veins and heart

- The two truths meet everywhere.

Soh, I think u should do a summary of ur understanding on the recent post by Andre.  The poem of expressing the meeting of two truth by realising dependent arising is beautiful. Like a sudden flash of insight that pierce through a koan, it clears the fog of dependent origination by directly leaping over all artificial definitions right into the heart, blood and veins of Tathāgata.  So what exactly is realized but was not recognized in the past? Put some effort into articulating this point clearly.

Appearance and emptiness are united

As the scent that is experience.

...

A feather slowly floats its way towards the ground;

The breeze makes the trees sway;

A sound suddenly pierces the silence;

That itself is the nature of mind.

 Imo that concisely expressed the heart to heart authentication of dependent origination as clarity natural radiance (arising).

That said, despite the non-conceptual heart to heart authentication, still the “in-between” de-construction process are extremely invaluable activities that cannot be bypassed and overlooked.  In fact, the missing key in sharpening and maturing one’s prajna lies precisely in these in-between process of connecting dots.  For mature and smooth integration of view, insights and experiences post anatta, we should not be simply skewed towards dwelling and deepening into non-conceptual taste of suchness.  So don’t end up like Héshang Móhēyǎn (和尚摩訶衍) in his debate with Kamalasila in Lhasa although in the Chinese sources, many claimed otherwise but that is beside the point.

Andre posted another good article today about how the 8 worldly concerns in daily engagements relate to agentless-action, dependent origination and emptiness and all these play their inevitable bits in wearing off our obscurations.  Habitual obscurations are exceedingly subtle like scent left behind a container hence there is no short-cut to liberation -- it’s all step by step and bit by bit erosion of the nuances and subtleness of “inherentness” in one’s ignorance.

Pam Tan shared this after meeting with AtR group and John in October 2020

[12:25 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Hi Soh, just want to let you know, how John described anatta last night is already my moment to moment lived 'experience' since beginning of this year. I am 100% doubtless. Even though I shared with no one and do not really want to talk about it. All there is just this current display of shapes colours tactile feel smell thoughts. No conceptual overlay, NONE! Direct, immediate, gapless, intimate. Life continues to function lighter than a baby's breath. Thank you for bringing the meeting about. From deep depression and not having heard of spirituality in 2016 to direct glimpses coming fast and furious back to back this year. Culminating in John's and your presence last evening. His words are myself talking to myself, sealing my milestone.
[12:26 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: 🙏🙏🙏
[12:56 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: As John said, anatta realisation is nothing spectacular, it is just recognising this has always been the case. Very beautiful and simple recognition, mySelf meeting mySelf, saying hello mySelf. No more questions, just a smile of quiet understanding.
[1:13 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Am open-handed now and seeing alot of deeply embedded old wounds surfacing without stopping them or reacting to them. They are just sensations and they free themselves and dissolve and I smile at how simple it is now, instead of me suppressing and suffering few years back. This purging is sometimes very intense and I have to take deep breaths. For as long as I have this body, there will continue to be old fears and habits based on mistaken beliefs of personhood and doership, I don't hope to exhaust all of them but see clearly that these present themselves as a chance to cleanse and clarify. A lifelong practice. So embrace everything, knowing we are all spotless, innocent, complete and life is very precious and beautiful Self-discovery journey!!!
[1:28 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Some real-life egs:

Every morning upon waking, in sleep-wake state, for a flash moment, language is absent so that what is presented have no labels and I have no idea what I am looking at. Just an array of shapes and colours and aircon humming and sensations the contact of body with sheets but all as one tapestry. No sense of someone located somewhere looking and experiencing from the location of a body in bed.  Yet feel like I am everywhere.
[1:28 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: This morning when hanging out the laundry my hands on the poles appear not attached or belonging to myself yet all the clothes and pole and window and flats opposite ARE ME!

The vivid colours of the clothes on the poles are nameless and not seen by the eyes but they are just KNOWN!
[1:30 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Colours and sounds are KNOWN immediately by themselves...they are Self-knowing, no need for any agent making an effort to bring info to the brain.
[1:33 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Last night watching John at no distance, his shape and voice just ARE. Not even to say "appearing in consciousness"...saying this is saying too much. JUST ARE! Shining vividly by themselves!
[1:39 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: And every moment is not a linear progression from a previous moment. Just one, the current one, the most updated one,. Updated not as if there was a continuity from previous moment. It is just a compete moment by itself! It presents as a whole package complete with story/memory of the previous moments. So this tricked the brain into thinking there was a past. Giving illusion of time. While in fact they are disjointed, each a complete current display.
[1:42 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: I used to drag my past into my present when it is just a story etched into the current configuration. There is no way to verify that the story even happened. It is just assumed due to 'evidences' of what others collaborate to confirm back to us.
[1:44 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: When people talk about there is just the NOW I was so frustrated. Now it is so obvious. What is right now infront of the face and under the feet is all the reality there is. All else are contrivance, hearsay, imagination, assumptions.
[1:47 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Regarding substantiality of a background, this is a thought, a concept appearing now.
[1:48 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: If there are no joined moments how can there be continuity?
[1:48 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: How can there be a permanent background?
[1:51 PM, 10/29/2020] Pam: Of all illusions, the illusion of a background holding all illusions together is itself the most persistent illusion!!!
[2:32 PM, 10/29/2020] Soh Wei Yu: 👍 wonderfully expressed. Thanks for sharing

[11:23 PM, 3/13/2021] Soh Wei Yu: by the way just wondering if it's ok to share what you shared above? i can remove any specific details if you wish
[7:37 AM, 3/14/2021] Pam: Hi morning Soh, yes can always share if you feel may benefit others

[1:42 AM, 3/13/2021] John Tan: 👍

[6:29 AM, 3/13/2021] John Tan: I would say:

If there is no knowing, seeing or perception and yet appearances spontaneously radiates, then it should not be dependent origination, should be spontaneous presence.

If there is name and form (namarupa), there is consciousness then there is dependent origination.

Comments

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André A. Pais
John Tan
I wonder exactly what the difference is between DO and spontaneous presence. In a way, DO seems more intellectual, inferential and more into the aproximate ultimate (emptiness as negation). That's been part of my difficulty with the term "total exertion" - it seems to invite a conceptualization of a whole web of causality that arises as "this moment."
On the other hand, lately DO (and by extension total exertion) is taking the shape of "vivid radiance," or "spontaneous clarity." DO means that there is clarity (origination), but it is spontaneous (dependent and thus empty - initially as negation, but finally as non-referentiality, beyond notions and "pure").
I've been trying to connect the dots between "nature of mind" - which feels rather sujective and "in here" - and the whole Madhyamaka enterprise of emptiness and DO - which feels rather objective and "out there." When investigating the nature of mind, one usually tries to look within, kind of turning the attention backwards; when investigating DO, one may knock on a table, drop a pen, etc., checking the inexorable "law of causality" - when this is, that is.
But what's coming up to me is that the "nature of mind" - as inseparable clarity and emptiness/unobstructedness - is nothing but the dependently arisen nature of experience/appearances. From the openness and referencelessness of mind, vivid appearances "naturally" manifest - and this is nothing but DO ("naturally" paradoxically means "when conditions are present").
Madhyamaka, when stressing the union of the two truths as inseparable union of appearance and emptiness, seems to be opening the same door that Mahamudra and Dzogchen seem to be opening with the nature of mind as inseparable emptiness, clarity and responsiveness/ expression/ compassion.
This is what I was trying to convey in a recent post in AtR:
The two truths meet everywhere.
.
- Dependent origination refutes
both extreme views of is and is-not.
- Appearance and emptiness are united
as the scent that is experience.
- Clarity and limitlessness are inseparable
as the nature of mind.
.
Mind as clarity is nothing
but experience as appearingness.
Experience as emptiness is nothing
but limitlessness as mind.
.
Clarity-appearance is nothing but origination.
Empty-limitlessness is nothing but dependency.
The diving into the nature of mind is nothing
but the embracing of dependent origination.
.
A feather slowly floats its way towards the ground;
The breeze makes the trees sway;
A sound suddenly pierces the silence;
That itself is the nature of mind.
.
The very pulsing of dependent origination
is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.
Like blood and veins and heart
- the two truths meet everywhere.
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André A. Pais
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
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John Tan
André A. Pais
To me when spontaneous presence is expressed conventionally, it is expressed as dependent origination and emptiness.
I m glad that u have understood total exertion this way. In seeing for examples, it is not only the eyes that sees, the ears, the hairs, the entire body-mind-enviroment are fully exerted and participating into the act of seeing. How is this possible if eyes, ears, nose, environment...everything r not conventional? If their conventionalities r not seen through, going beyond their designated boundaries into just the "seen" as the "lurid scenery" will just be another experience, not an insight.
Although integration of two truth is crucial, I think a difference must still b made on spontaneous presence from freedom of conceptual notions and DO and emptiness before integration. At least until certain experiential insights arise:
One is the supreme purity that relinquishes both pure and impurity, freedom from both notions. Without going through this process, it is difficult to "see" how notions create "things" and "existence".
When we affirm "internal", we are in fact affirming "externality" at the same time. This is what the mind can't see easily. Surely the mind thinks " 'internal and private and in here' r still undeniably true even without designated conceptual constructs". This undeniable conviction of "in here" is real and "undeniably exist" is the "inherentness" that must be deconstructed. When the relationship of conceptual notions aren't clear, distinguishing mere appearances from added imputation on mere appearance will not be easy for the mind. Like why is the plant growing instead of decaying? At which point is exactly is it growing and decaying? Same applies to cause and effect. like the plant that grows and decays, the designated consciousness determines that a cause has ceased and effect has come into "existence".
This emphasis of the thorough understanding of conceptual notions to be negated instead of creating "inherent existence" on top of the conventional is y Mipham said abt Tsongkhapa notional emptiness. We do not empty the "inherent existence" of the vase, the entire conventional notion of "vase" is the "inherent existence" to be emptied, there is no "extra" inherent existence of something to be emptied. U can't retain the conventionality of vase and talk abt emptiness.
Next is the freedom from all notions will lead one into another taste -- unmade, unconditioned, natural spontaneity in contrast to artificially man-made mind constructs.
Once natural clarity, supreme purity, unconditioned natural spontaneity r realized via seeing through conventionalities, then I think integrating the two truth will b more fruitful.

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Nice meditation app by Angelo Gerangelo

‎Simply Awake on the App Store (apple.com)