I have mentioned in the AtR group that recently, a number of people have made breakthroughs. Here is one of them, Michael:    

MichaelAwakening
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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

Hi

Thought this might interest you, on nondual awareness and its nature and the subtleties of insight:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Thank you, I’ll take a look :)

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

You’re welcome :) p.s I’m Soh, and Thusness is my mentor… I’ve been through similar stages in my journey. Both of us are co authors of the blog

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Great! Nice to meet you :)

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

Nice to meet you too :)

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

There’s a lot on this website! It definitely seems relevant to my question about true self/no self. I’ll spend the next through days going through the content :)

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Next few days *

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

Glad it is of interest :)

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

We have an online community too in case you want to drop by. We have dozens of people at least that have gone through the same phases of insights experientially

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Thank you, I've sent a request to join (my name's Michael). This stuff resonates with me.

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

Great, added you

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Thanks for that! Do you know anyone who acts as a guide or teacher? I'm reading the AtR Abridged guide but it's hard to know what stage I'm at because I've come from a Vedantic background where the terminology and soteriology is somewhat different. The description of Stage 4 and One-Mind in particular (only Brahaman) seems most accurate to my experience, but I may be fooling myself.

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

You can read this article first to understand the AtR terminology and then let me know what your experience and insights are like now

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/10/differentiating-i-am-one-mind-no-mind.html

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

Also you might be interested to read this too, bahiya sutta was what got me to my breakthrough of anatta

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/a-zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html

…

My article: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Very helpful, thank you. I have realised “I Am”, One Mind (only subject, with forms as modulations of subjectivity), and have had “glimpses” of No Mind. I think I’ve also realised luminosity—appearances don’t seem to have a substance beyond or behind the appearance. It’s clear that when seeing an apple there’s no “real apple”, only the seeing. However it does still feel like there’s a seer, a subject, which is Awareness or I Am. These paragraphs align closely with my current experience:

“In this text, Ven. Dasaka meets the Arhant Khemaka and tells him that "there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this." (...) ""Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'" The Arhat answers saying "friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession."”

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

I see, i have gone through those phases as well.

Contemplating bahiya sutta and challenging the sense that a seer or seeing exists besides seen until its seen through will help. In truth there is no seer or seeing besides seen or hearer and hearing besides sound, just like there is no lightning besides flash. Lightning is not an agent of flash but just another name for the flashing, or the flash. No nouns or agents are needed or exists to set verbs into action, just verbing.

There is only sound

Geovani Geo wrote:

We hear a sound. The immediate deeply inbuilt conditioning says, "hearing ". But there is a fallacy there. There is only sound. Ultimately, no hearer and no hearing. The same with all other senses. A centralized, or expanded, or zero-dimensional inherent perceiver or aware-er is an illusion.

Thusness/John Tan:

Very good.

Means both stanza is clear. In hearing, no hearer. In hearing, only sound.  No hearing.

…..

Also

I wrote this recently:

I like your answer. Also, I would like to add, awareness is none other than the ongoing activity. It is not the case that awareness is an unchanging substance modulating as everything. 'Awareness' is just like a word like 'weather', a mere name denoting the ongoing dynamic activities of raining wetting sun shining wind blowing lightning strike and so on and on. 'Awareness' has no intrinsic existence of its own than moment to moment manifestation, even if at that moment it is just a mere sense of formless Existence, that too is another 'foreground' non-dual manifestation and not an unchanging background.

Just like there is no lightning besides flash (lightning is flashing -- lightning is just another name for flash and is not the agent behind flash), no wind besides blowing, no water besides flowing, no nouns or agents are needed to initiate verbs. There never was an agent, a seer, or even a seeing, besides colors, never an agent, a hearer, or even a hearing, besides sound. Anatta.

Some excerpts from the 2nd most famous Buddhist masters (right after the Dalai Lama) of our time, the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh :

Excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'.""..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming....""In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."

Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective." ............. Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought."

When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough. Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas.

But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."

I think the above is impt for you, it is not just nondual of subject object but sees through inherent existence of self/Self/Awareness

along with the two stanzas of anatta

Two stanzas: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

On verbs, also related: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/just-manifestation-or-just-mind.html

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

I’ll contemplate these deeply, thank you :)

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

The modulating view is also seen through post anatta and this article expressed well http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/beyond-awareness.html

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

👍

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

You’re welcome to join our online group too if you wish

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

btw feel free to join our group too if you like https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Thanks, I’ve already joined, I’m Michael :)

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[–]from Michael sent 1 month ago

Thanks, I’ve already joined, I’m Michael :)

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[–]to Michael sent 1 month ago

👍🙏

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[–]from Michael sent 11 days ago

Hi Soh/Xabir, I've been contemplating as advised above. Awareness/background subject has been seen as just another thought/mental image, not a real subject/perceiver. There never was a subject of experience, only a transient subtle mental image which was 'pretending' to be a background awareness. The thought/mental image of apparent background subject continues to arise frequently, however. Does it stop arising at some point?

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

That’s great.

All traces of background do stop at some point when insight of anatta as a seal is deep and clear.

How do you experience Presence now?

An excerpt from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html

The Absolute as separated from the transience is what I have indicated as the 'Background' in my 2 posts to theprisonergreco.

Many non-dualists after the intuitive insight of the Absolute hold tightly to the Absolute. This is like attaching to a point on the surface of a sphere and calling it 'the one and only center'. Even for those Advaitins that have clear experiential insight of no-self (no object-subject split), an experience similar to that of anatta (First emptying of subject) are not spared from these tendencies. They continue to sink back to a Source.

It is natural to reference back to the Source when we have not sufficiently dissolved the latent disposition but it must be correctly understood for what it is. Is this necessary and how could we rest in the Source when we cannot even locate its whereabout? Where is that resting place? Why sink back? Isn't that another illusion of the mind? The 'Background' is just a thought moment to recall or an attempt to reconfirm the Source. How is this necessary? Can we even be a thought moment apart? The tendency to grasp, to solidify experience into a 'center' is a habitual tendency of the mind at work. It is just a karmic tendency. Realize It! This is what I meant to Adam the difference between One-Mind and No-Mind.

·        John Tan, 2009

·        Emptiness as Viewless View and Embracing the Transience http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/04/emptiness-as-viewless-view.html

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

This para: “ To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)”

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

You should continue to practice vipassana and luminosity as form while keeping the two stanzas of anatta in mind until it is very clearly realised as a seal, always already so

On vipassana, see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html and https://vimeo.com/250616410

Excerpt (do read whole link too):

“It is extremely difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this ‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’ creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness. It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007

....

Someone asked, "A quick question about Thusness Vipassanaa.

It's about clarity right?

Like when I focus on sound, I can see that mind sort of created a visual to describe sound and "color" it, but even without the mind there is clear knowing. The sound without mind's coloring is borderless."

Soh replied:

You must experience the intensity of luminosity:

“Good insight. Stability of experience has a predictable relationship with the unfolding and deepening of insights. For example how seamless and effortless can non-dual experience be, if in the back of one's mind, subtle views of duality and inherency and tendencies continue to surface and affect our moment to moment experience - for example conjuring an unchanging source or mind that results in a perpetual tendency to sink back and referencing experience back to a source.

For example even after it is seen that everything is a manifestation of awareness or mind, there might still be subtle tendencies to reference back to a source, awareness or mind and therefore the transience is not appreciated in full. Nondual is experienced but one sinks back into substantial nonduality - there is always a referencing back to a base, an "awareness" that is nevertheless inseparable from all phenomena.

If one arises the insight that our ideas of an unchanging source, awareness or mind is just another thought - that there is simply thought after thought, sight after sight, sound after sound, and there isn't an inherent or unchanging "awareness", "mind", "source". Non-dual becomes implicit and effortless when there is the realisation that what awareness, seeing, hearing really is, is just the seen... The heard... The transience... The transience itself rolls and knows, no knower or other "awareness" can be found. Like there is no river apart from flowing, no wind apart from blowing, each noun implies its verb... Similarly awareness is simply the process of knowing not separated from the known. Scenery sees, music hears. Because there is nothing unchanging, independent, ultimate apart from the transience, there is no more sinking back to a source and instead there is full comfort resting as the transience itself.

Lastly do continue practicing the intensity of luminosity... When looking at tennis ball just sense the tennis ball fully.... Without thinking of a source, background, observer, self. Just the tennis ball as a luminous light. When breathing... Just the breathe... When seeing scenery, just sights, shapes and colours - intensely luminous and vivid without an agent or observer. When hearing music... Sound of bird chirping, the crickets… Just that - chirp chirp. A zen master noted upon his awakening... When I am hearing the bell ringing, there is no I and no bell... Just the ringing. The direct experiencing of no-mind and intensity of luminosity.. This is the purpose of the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness that is taught by the Buddha.” - Soh, 2011

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

When you luminosity as form is intense and strong with clear insight of anatta like how i described below years ago, be careful not to overfocus or overexert but rather progress into the insight of dependent origination or emptiness. Otherwise one might get energy imbalances. On the vivid luminosity as forms:

"Strong and vivid radiance..

Even now the smell of food is standing out in intensity

...[sights have a] HD hypervivid quality...

...Actually more accurate description is magical and marvellous colors (as in the vivid 'textures' of what's called trees, sky, houses, people, streets, etc), sounds (as in the vivid 'textures' of a bird chirping, sound of traffic, etc), scents (as in the aromas of food, and plants, etc), etc. Complete perfection with a stark intensity...

Yet feels completely natural. Without slightest sense of distance or self/Self, even the tiniest details becomes starkly clear

This sense of perfection and magical radiance of everything is still there even when I'm physically tired and lack sleep on the previous night

By magical what I mean is a sense that there’s something very magnificent, almost like beauty but it is not beauty vs ugly and is not at all a subjectively imposed or affective feeling of beauty, but a sense of perfection.. like I look at the fly crawling on my skin, the fly is so completely perfect, like part of the paradise (note: this is different from Thusness's usage of the term 'magical')

Like a ball of radiance, except radiance as none other than the boundless world of forms, colors, textures and sounds, that is the very radiance, for it is the world that is the radiance and nothing else. Not a subjective radiance standing apart from forms.

There is nothing subjectively imposed here.. when I say “sense of perfection” that is already not quite accurate as it conveys some subjectively imposed interpretation of perfection.. rather it is the world that is the perfection and each moment carries the flavor of perfection

Perfection being merely a qualitative description of the pristine state of consciousness/radiant forms, not an affective feeling of "it is perfect" but neither is it an objective characteristic of some inherently existing object (there is neither subject nor object as subject and object is conceptual)

But this state of consciousness is not just heightened clarity... it’s like even the trees swaying is marvelously and magically alive and life reveals its significance and meaning all around. I think this is what Richard calls “meaning of life”.

The emotional model of AF makes some sense"

...

Driving around Singapore, it feels like I am experiencing Singapore for the first time.

…..

…But the best thing in terms of affect so far is that the constant apperception is such a joyful, clean, pristine state of appreciating the boundless and radiant world that there isn't room for unpleasant emotions like sadness, boredom, depression, etc. There is certainly no more "Monday blues" or any kind of "blues" at all. It make sense now in my experience when Richard says his days are one perfect day after another. Even lying on bed, looking at the ceiling, the sound of the humming and background noises is joyful. Any added entertainment on top of that perfection is just another addition on top of perfection."

...

This state of apperception is effortlessly and naturally present from the very moment I wake up to the moment I sleep, for example when I wake up sometimes a sound is heard and I do not even know where I am (the body is lying on the bed but the mind hasn't cognized that on the very first moment of waking up) in contrast to the bird chirping or the fan humming as there is simply no 'I' to be located anywhere, there is only everything everywhere... it is almost as if I am at the sound of the bird chirping except there is no 'I' to 'be at' or 'be one with' the sound, there is only sound. The reflection of the orange rising sun over the window in the next building shines as vivid radiance with flawless perfection... the radiant energies courses through the body, energising and vitalising my day. All these informs me that it's going to be yet another perfect day in paradise even before I open my eyes. When driving, when walking, overlooking the long stretch of road over the horizon, there is no center, no reference-point, no center-of-reference, and no circumference... the whole universe is walking, is the walking, is the driving, where the movement of legs is not done or perceived by an 'I' (there is no doer, thinker, feeler, watcher, cognizer, being/Being whatsoever, only action) and this body is walking inseparably from the entire universe, it is not the case that there is a body here and a separate universe out there in which the body moves through.

·        http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/the-magical-fairytale-like-wonderland.html

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[–]from Michael sent 11 days ago

Thanks Soh.

A tennis ball is lit up like the sun, as if from within. But the light isn't coming from within - the light is the appearance, and the appearance is the light. They're not two different things. This transience appears like the stained glass windows in a church, and it's always been like that.

When the thought/mental image of awareness is mistaken for an actual background awareness, the luminosity seems to get shrouded, and transience seems to split into self/other.

I'll continue practicing Vipassana/luminosity with Bahiya/anatta stanzas in mind.

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

Also, not sure if you relate to this:

4

Joel Agee I will try to describe what it is that rings true for me in Thusness’s words. I don’t have a theoretical preference for the early Buddhist teachings over the later ones, including Dzogchen. In fact I know very little about the Pali Canon. My approach isn’t conceptual or theoretical at all. I look directly into the nature of my own consciousness in silent, objectless sitting meditation – shikantaza if you will. Whatever doesn’t meet the test of direct experience holds no lasting interest for me.

Until fairly recently, the metaphor of the mirror and its reflections seemed a fitting image of my contemplative experience: that there is an unchanging, ever-present, imperturbable awareness that is the absolute ground and the very substance of phenomena, and that while this motionless, contentless awareness-presence is inseparable from the ceaseless coming and going of appearances, it also transcends everything that shows up, remaining untouched, unstained, absolute and indestructible.

A couple of years ago I discovered Soh’s blog, Awakening to Reality, and in it Soh’s account of his exploration of the Bahiya Sutta and the Zen Priest Alex Weith’s report on his realization of Anatta through practical application of the Bahiya Sutta. I saw then that Anatta was not fully realized in my experience. The illusory nature of a separate unchanging personal self had been seen through, but an unconscious identification with “Awareness” or “rigpa” had taken its place.

Since then, an unstoppable deconstruction of that impersonal background identity has been happening in my contemplation and in my daily life. There is still a noticeable attachment to the memory of that subtle Home Base. It shows up as a tendency to "lean back" from the unpredictable brilliance and dynamism of the moment into a static, subtly blissful background presence. But there is no longer a belief in an Awareness that is anything other than, or greater than, or deeper than, THIS sound, THIS smile or stirring of emotion, THIS glance of light. There is no Mirror that is not the reflections.

So the shift in my experience and practice is not a preference for one teaching over another. It’s an ongoing realization that direct contact with the grain and texture of moment-by-moment experience is what Dogen meant by “being awakened by the ten thousand things.” January 2 at 3:20am · Unlike · 6

Joel Agee Jackson, it's true that seeking ends with the recognition of rigpa. There is nowhere further to go, and there's no deeper truth to ferret out. I agree it is an immediate insight, not a gradual acquisition of understanding. And yes, it involves no self-belief. But what doesn't necessarily end and often passes unnoticed is the unconscious habit of locating oneself in a kind of pseudo-rigpa that subtly separates "awareness" from "phenomena." That persists, or maybe more accurately, it recurs when the crystal clarity of rigpa is intermittent, not stable. That was my experience, and I have observed this tendency in others. That is why I have found the instructions of the Bahiya Sutta helpful. January 2 at 6:29am · Like · 2

·        http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/joel-agee-appearances-are-self_1.html

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

Good description about the luminosity :)

Btw is it ok if i share what you wrote on the atr blog? I wont put your name if you wish for anonymity

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

Btw which city do you stay in?

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

Are you Michael?

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[–]from Michael sent 11 days ago

Yes you're welcome to share the description, but perhaps only with my first name :) I'm Michael from New Zealand.

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[–]to Michael sent 11 days ago

Thanks :) which part of new zealand?

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[–]from Michael sent 11 days ago

Palmerston North :) Whereabouts do you live?

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

Im from singapore

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

I highly recommend you check out this place. I have read john daido loori teachings, he has clear insights into anatta and total exertion

Mountains and Rivers Order Sitting Group

Address: Palmerston North Manawatu-Wanganui Tradition: Mahayana, Mountains and Rivers Order founded by John Daido Loori Affiliation: Zen in the tradition of John Daido Loori Phone: (06) 356 8811 E-mail: Peter.Jolly@vets Website: http://www.squidoo.com/zen-in-new-zealand Find on: Dr: Peter Jolly, MRO Email (Phone: (06) 356 8811 ) Spiritual Director: Jeffrey Shugen Arnold Sensei Email (Phone: +001 845-688-2228) Notes and Events:

The Zen Institute of New Zealand (ZENZ) is a national, non-residential Zen Buddhist training organization of the Mountains and Rivers Order (MRO) that provides training and guidance to those interested in practicing Zen Buddhism. Members meet regularly for zazen, intensive retreats (sesshin), and other activities throughout the country. Sitting groups are located in Auckland, Christchurch, Nelson, Wellington, and Manawatu.

The MRO was founder by one of the most influential American Zen Masters, John Daido Loori (1931-2009), and is an organization of associated temples, practice centers and sitting groups in the United States and abroad. The MRO was founded by Daido Roshi in 1980, and is inspired by the teachings of Zen Master Dogen as presented in his "Mountains and Rivers Sutra."

For more information, see http://mro.org/smr/newzealand/

For information about local groups in New Zealand and the group in Palmerston North, Manawatu, see http://mro.org/smr/newzealand/about/sitting-groups/

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

John tan and i are both from singapore :)

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

New zealand is a wonderful place, wish to visit again some time

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

When you go to the zen center, when you have a chance maybe you can discuss your insights and experiences with them too

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[–]to Michael sent 10 days ago

Also these pointers may help:

“[10:16 AM, 6/29/2020] John Tan: Frank is very experiential, no need to be too theoretical into emptiness, non-arisen of phenomena for now.

Rather it is to allow him to move the energy and radiance to his body...entire body...although the background is gone, you may think that all six senses are in equal radiance but it is far from truth in real time and causes all the energy imbalances.

Relax into the natural state and feel the energetic radiance over the entire body. Not by way of thinking. Touch anything, touch the toes, they legs, feel them. It is your mind...lol...can you understand that? [10:23 AM, 6/29/2020] John Tan: The mountain is mind, the grasses are mind, everything is mind. That is through the vision and mental, feel the body, toes fingers, touch them. They are mind. So do you understand that in real time? As for sleep don't worry too much, it will happen and use less thoughts, let whole body be a sense of touch not by thinking, but feel and touch it. So don't think that when insight of all is mind anatta arise, means you are already into all is mind. If you can't embrace and feel all as mind, how are you to eliminate the common denominator called mind and into no mind which is the natural state of anatta.”

·        quote from AtR guide

....

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/the-doctrine-of-no-mind-by-bodhidharma.html

At this, the disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was freed of all obstruction.

also: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/04/way-of-bodhi.html

Though purifying mind is the essence of practicing the Way, it is not done by clinging at the mind as a glorified and absolute entity. It is not that one simply goes inward by rejecting the external world. It is not that the mind is pure and the world is impure. When mind is clear, the world is a pure-field. When mind is deluded, the world is Samsara. Bodhidharma said, Seeing with insight, form is not simply form, because form depends on mind. And, mind is not simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. … Mind and the world are opposites, appearances arise where they meet. When your mind does not stir inside, the world does not arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is the true insight.” (from the Wakeup Discourse)

Just like the masters of Madhyamaka, Bodhidharma too pointed out that mind and form are interdependently arising. Mind and form create each other. Yet, when you cling to form, you negate mind. And, when you cling to mind, you negate form. Only when such dualistic notions are dissolved, and only when both mind and the world are transparent (not turning to obstructing concepts) the true insight arises.

In this regard, Bodhidharma said, Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Not using the mind to look for reality is awareness. (from the Wakeup Discourse)

So, to effectively enter the Way, one has to go beyond the dualities (conceptual constructs) of mind and form. As far as one looks for reality as an object of mind, one is still trapped in the net of delusion (of seeing mind and form as independent realities), never breaking free from it. In that way, one holds reality as something other than oneself, and even worse, one holds oneself as a spectator to a separate reality!

When the mind does not stir anymore and settles into its pristine clarity, the world does not stir outside. The reality is revealed beyond the divisions of Self and others, and mind and form. Thus, as you learn not to use the mind to look for reality and simply rests in the natural state of mind as it is, there is the dawn of pristine awareness – knowing reality as it is, non-dually and non-conceptually.

When the mind does not dissolve in this way to its original clarity, whatever one sees is merely the stirring of conceptuality. Even if we try to construct a Buddha’s mind, it only stirs and does not see reality. Because, the Buddha’s mind is simply the uncompounded clarity of Bodhi (awakening), free from stirring and constructions. So, Bodhidharma said, That which ordinary knowledge understands is also said to be within the boundaries of the norms. When you do not produce the mind of a common man, or the mind of a sravaka or a bodhisattva, and when you do not even produce a Buddha-mind or any mind at all, then for the first time you can be said to have gone outside the boundaries of the norms. If no mind at all arises, and if you do not produce understanding nor give rise to delusion, then, for the first time, you can be said to have gone outside of everything. (From the Record #1, of the Collection of Bodhidharma’s Works3 retrieved from Dunhuang Caves)

....

also:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/succinct-summary-of-no-mind-by-jayson.html

Succinct Summary of No Mind by Jayson MPaul

Shared with Your friends and Jayson's friends Someone on a forum asked me to summarise what I have been explaining about No Mind (since I have a bad habit of explaining something with too many words), I gave him this nice summary by Jayson MPaul : "Jayson MPaul none of these things are about nihilism, although that is a real danger for those who misunderstand emptiness. No Mind is what is always already true. It has no existence of its own. No mind apart from phenomena, no phenomena apart from mind. This is what Soh Wei Yu meant when he said there is no true existence of mind."

Labels: Anatta, Jayson MPaul, Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma 0 comments | |

...

"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji...all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If u got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020

...

[8:53 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In zen though they say there is no mind, they in fact embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can b detected. Yet Shen Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post anatta, mind and phenomena r completely indisguishable. If both mind and phenomena r completely indisguishable in experience, then distinctions r nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display. [8:54 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. btw did sheng yen realise anatta? [8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: So u must know when we say no awareness, no self, no I, it doesnt mean nothing.   It is seeing through the background construct and open the gate to directly taste, experience and effortless authenticate clarity. [8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: I believe so but he did not talk about his experience except the stanza before his death that is beautiful. [8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. didnt see his stanza before [8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah luminous aggregates [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: That are also empty [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: 无事忙中老，空里有哭笑，本来没有我，生死皆可抛” 台湾高僧圣严法师圆寂

(Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老) In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑) Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我) Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)) - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/11/differentiate-wisdom-from-art.html

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[–]from Michael sent 5 hours ago

Thanks Soh :) The centre is just down the road for me, perhaps a 5 minute walk. Zen appeals to me aesthetically, too.

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[–]to Michael sent 5 hours ago

Wow. You have good karma :)

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[–]to Michael sent 5 hours ago

Btw this new sharing by john tan should also be helpful to you too: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/09/uprooting-and-seeing-through.html

Also http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html

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[–]from Michael sent 4 hours ago

Great! Thank you.

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[–]from Michael sent 4 hours ago

Yes, there's no 'container' in which this vivid colour show appears. It doesn't appear in space. Not in mind. Just 'here'—and not even 'here' as 'here' implies 'there' or 'not here'.

No substance. No source. Not 'made of' anything. Not made of mind, not made of matter. Nothing 'behind' appearances. No source from which they arise. Just perceptions, with no perceiver.

Sometimes there's a residual experience of appearances (lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents) appearing 'in awareness' or 'to awareness', but this 'awareness' is recognized to just be another transient mental image arising after the fact, not an actual witness or perceiver or container or substance.

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[–]to Michael sent 4 hours ago

👍 the two links i sent you points to something more.

But its good your anatta insight is sinking in. Continue practicing with the stanzas in mind until the last trace of self/Self vanishes..

Also try to get this book, its compiled by john daido loori https://www.amazon.com/Art-Just-Sitting-Essential-Shikantaza-ebook/dp/B003XF1LJI/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=1NMJP6T3CH3M&keywords=john+daido+loori&qid=1663042731&sprefix=john+daido+loori%2Caps%2C624&sr=8-5

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

From atr guide:

“Now with your current insight and understanding, what should be the right approach to end this lingering sense of self? Your practice should be always realization, experience and views. Your experience must refine [to be] like the place where there is no heat or cold*. Your anatta view must be extended to whatever arises. Your realization must extend your anatta to dependent origination.” - John Tan, early 2011

*The Place Where There is No Heat or Cold: A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?” Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?” The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?” Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.” This is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators have suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot, sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a fan.” In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold kills you, and there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills you, and there is only heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of incense kills you, and there is only the fragrance of incense in the whole universe. The sound of the bell kills you, and there is only “boooong” in the whole universe... ~The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing, Ted Biringer

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[–]from Michael sent 3 hours ago

Something more in those two links… Do you mean emptiness/no inherent existence?

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

Yes on emptiness. Not just anatta

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

Also your lingering trace of awareness will and should be exhausted in time.. may take a while

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

August 2010:

“(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example you see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.

(11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization (11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear; Refrain from both positive and negative projection - leave appearances alone: The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.

-Tilopa this is very good (11:46 PM) AEN: oic.. (11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.

ask luckystrikes (11:52 PM) AEN: ok posted (12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself. (12:30 AM) Thusness: very good. (12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta (12:31 AM) AEN: oic.. (12:32 AM) Thusness: what’s left in is the intensity of practice. (12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness” (Scott Kiloby wrote more recently: https://www.kiloby.com/post/the-case-against-awareness-a-little-blasphemy-goes-a-long-way)

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

But even after it is exhausted, leaving only luminous world as stated above, the new john tan article also said thats not the end

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

“It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with "the world" also. Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.

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[–]from Michael sent 3 hours ago

Thanks Soh, I’ll contemplate this.

On another note, I saw the Reddit post you linked to the Facebook group, asking if AtR is ascam/cult, lol. I am glad you reached out to me, you’ve been very helpful and generous with your time.

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[–]from Michael sent 3 hours ago

Ps. I think I realised emptiness before anatta - is that possible?

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

Lol no worries about people thinking it is scam

The famous zen master Linji said

“Those Ch'an masters who are as timid as a new bride are afraid they might be expelled from the monastery or deprived of their meal of rice, worrying and fretting. But from times past the real teachers, wherever they went, were never listened to and were always driven out - that's how you know they were men of worth. If everybody approves of you wherever you go, what use can you be? Hence the saying, Let the lion give one roar and the brains of the little foxes will split open.”

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

My teacher from Linji zen lineage, li zhu lao shi, who also went through similar phases from i am to anatta (but she is not related to thusness) encouraged me to continue teaching (although i never saw myself as a teacher)

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[–]to Michael sent 3 hours ago

What did you realise about emptiness?

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[–]from Michael sent 3 hours ago

That nothing has inherent existence; there's no substance; nothing really exists. Not only is there no subject, but there's no object either. No world, no universe; just the current sense experience. Just this breath, just this color, just this smell. And those are all empty of existence.

Before meeting you I practiced the tantra of kashmiri shaivism via Rupert Spira. He calls it the yoga of sensation and perception, and it involved dissolving the object (the world) into just seeing, and then dissolving seeing into just the seer (the knower, Awareness, the True Self)—and realizing that this is always the case. This is sort the reverse path that AtR takes (There is hearing, no hearer; In hearing, just sounds) so in some sense the emptiness of object/the world had already been seen.

I could be wrong, though. Sometimes it's hard to translate across different spiritual systems :)

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[–]to Michael sent 2 hours ago

Advaitic path, depending on the teacher, can be pretty thorough at deconstructing the objective pole but it is a different methodology from Madhyamaka. In the case of Advaita, objects are deconstructed by subsuming into a nondual subjectivity. In Madhayamaka, both subject and object are deconstructed released on the spot without subsuming. The way of deconstructing is based on seeing dependent designations. For example, in the seen just the seen, there is no seeing besides the seen nor something seen besides seeing. Therefore there is no seer, no seeing, and nothing seen. This is not a one way dependence where objects depend on awareness but awareness does not depend on objects. Rather, it is a two-way dependence where awareness is as much dependent on objects and appearance, as well as appearance or objects being dependent on awareness. In this case, both poles are released without subsuming. Do read http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/08/greg-goode-on-advaitamadhyamika_9.html

But a positive thing about the Greg Goode/Atmananda Direct Path, and also possibly the Rupert Spira path you mentioned, is that they do thorough deconstruction of objectivity and physicality quite early on.

You should also know that there are two aspects to emptiness, the aspect of freedom from elaboration, and also the emptiness of self-nature.

You should also contemplate on this after your anatta has stabilized: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html

Thusness's comments to AEN:

Hi AEN,

Those were just some very casual sharing written on the spur of a moment, they were not well thought. Emptiness to me has another dimension if you wish to look into it.

When there is not even a single trace of Self/self nor is there any sense of inner/outer division, experiencer and what experienced collapsed...

At this moment there is just this vivid beautiful scenery, this bright brilliant world…all self arises

At this point…

Close your eyes....

Voidness....

Relax and rest in this all-consuming awaring void, this clear non-dual Awareness standing alone as itself and of itself…

Then shift the focus to the breath…

Just the sensations of the breath…

Then the transparent dancing sensations…absolutely no mind, no body, no experiencer/experienced, no inner/outer division… borderless and boundless

Every moment is great and miraculous…

This must become natural to you first.

Then at this moment of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire scenery, the entire world…

Understand that they are Empty!

Experience the magnificence then deeply understand that they are empty but this Emptiness has nothing to do with deconstruction nor reification nor do I mean they are simply impermanent. So what is this Emptiness I am referring to?

..............

On another occasion Thusness wrote:

Intelligent Knowingness as permanent… continuous… so many projections into time… so involved in mind conceptualities… Deconstruct seer, what happens is just this spontaneously manifested scenery

Deconstruct body further, you have mind-body drop

Deconstruct time, there will only be this clear vivid presence of immediacy

After arising insight of anatta, there is only “directness” and simplicity... go beyond conventions and conceptuality and recognize this immediate radiance is exactly what is appearing in this instantaneous moment...

If you are in need of a view for practice, then embrace the general principle of Dependent Origination that doesn’t entertain who-when-where construct, it will help sever dualistic and inherent propensities. Otherwise you will have to go back to the koan I asked you when I first met you in IRC… this moment ceases as it arises, is this moment arising or ceasing? If you are clear, then further penetrate this total exertion of immediacy and realize that though there is vivid appearances, there is nothing here… nothing now… you will never find it!

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[–]to Michael sent 2 hours ago

Additionally, these links may be of interest:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/08/emptinesschariot-as-vivid-appearing.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/primordially-unborn.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/non-arising-due-to-dependent-origination.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html

Last two articles are by Krodha https://www.reddit.com/user/krodha/ , sorry I forgot if I mentioned about him 

i wrote recently “ The admin of the Dzogchen subreddit, krodha, who is also an admin of Dzogchen teacher Malcolm Smith’s Zangthal Sangha forum, made me an admin of the dzogchen subreddit too. But i am mostly silent there

Acarya Malcolm told me over dinner three years ago that Krodha is one of his first students to totally understand his teachings. Both Acarya Malcolm and Krodha (kyle dixon) has that anatta and emptiness insights too.

Thusness (john tan) and myself have been attending Malcolm’s dzogchen teachings in the subsequent years

Zangthal sangha as in www.zangthal.com”

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[–]from Michael sent an hour ago

Thank you :) I'll spend time with all of this.

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·         Soh wrote: “I wrote this to someone today: I would not say sweetness exist, existence and non existence do not apply

Sweetness and everything else is non arising (see heart sutra). As Thusness said, “Non-arising means appearances without essence similar to a reflection, like a rainbow.”

We know a reflection of moon on water due to dependent origination doesn’t imply that a moon exists in the water.

As Jayson MPaul said, “Rainbows need to have eyes in correct position, water droplets, light, radiant mind, all like so for rainbow to appear. Move slightly and rainbow is gone. Never came from anywhere, stayed anywhere, or went anywhere. The rainbow was insubstantial, but vividly displayed. All phenomena are like this”

Everyone understands dynamic but not everyone understands what is dynamic is dependently originating and non arising like a rainbow or reflection. Vividly present yet nothing there. Hence the dynamic phenomena is also free of some sort of real existence undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing.

Dynamic phenomena can be mistaken as not empty - that is, it may be mistaken that there exists phenomena that have some sort of real essence or existence that is truly undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing by its own self existence, even if that process happens momentarily and quickly.

And as thusness just wrote to someone, “Actually it is the very nature of consciousness that "there is an absence of elephant but still you see an elephant", be it delusory conceptual constructs or pure vivid display, there is nothing there at all despite vivid clear appearances (dependent arising) -- both exhibit this unique characteristic.

Insight of this perculiar "absence/presence" is insight into the nature of "consciousness", so understanding consciousness is clear and knowing isn't enough.  

Actually dependent arising is just pointing this illusoriness (mind-like) nature of mind, it is directly point at mind's nature.””

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 Kyle Dixon (krodha) wrote:

Pāli texts that discuss anātman would be:

AN 7.49 Dutiyasaññā Sutta, MN 140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta, SN 46.73 Anatta Sutta, Sutta Nipāta 5.15, Mogharājamāṇavapucchā, AN 10.60 Girimānanda Sutta, SN 22.59 Pañcavaggiya Sutta, Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta, AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta.

 Discipline is crucial for our spiritual practice and progress in the spiritual path.

John Tan just wrote to someone who just had a breakthrough,

“It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with "the world" also.  Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern. 

Look at the scenery, so lurid and vivid; 

Is the "scenery" out there?

Feel the "hardness" of the floor; 

Is this undeniable "hardness" out there? 

If "hardness of the floor" aren't out there, are is "inside" the brain? There is no "hardness" in the brain u can locate in the parts that make up the experience of "hardness".  

It is not even in the "mind" for u can't even find "mind" then how can "in" the mind be valid? 

If "hardness" isn't external nor internal, then where is it? 

So, to me, buddhism is not about helping one taste presence or into an effortless state of non-dual or into a state free of conceptualities but also points out this fundamental cognitive flaw that confuses the mind.  This is more crucial.  If the cognitive fault isn't uprooted and seen through, then all experiences regardless of how mystical and profound will be distorted.

Eliminating conceptualities and elaborations do not mean one has uprooted and seen through "inherentness" and self-view.  That is just non-analytical mundane cessation.””

Jayson MPaul commented,

“Yes these are very important contemplations for realizing the emptiness of containment, boundaries, and the presence itself. Where are those sensations? Then just let all the sensations be where they are, which is nowhere. Brilliant but translucent, appearing but not there, holographic, ephemeral, like a rainbow.”

Soh replied, “Also, John Tan’s reply reminds me of this quote, 

"The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought, but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge, but a specific misconception, and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein, Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there, so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance."

Napper, Elizabeth, 2003, p. 103"

Soh:

“ Shared this quote with him also:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/04/buddhism-is-not-what-you-think.html

"The Song of the Jewel Mirror Awareness," a poem by the great Chinese Zen teacher Tung-shan, speaks of the very same Awareness that the Buddha pointed to. This image of a jewel mirror was used as a way to express the source from which all things issue. All the myriad things, thoughts, and feelings we experience appear like images in a mirror: vivid yet insubstantial. The ungraspable mirror is what's Real, while the seemingly isolated things that appear in it are not.

Consider for example, the simple act of smelling a rose. We see the rose, feel the rose, bring it close, breathe in through our nose. We "smell the rose," as we say, though this refers more to how we conceptualize our experience than it does to what is actually experienced. To say we smell a fragrance would be closer to the actual experience.

But where does the act of smelling a fragrance takes place? If we attend carefully, we can see that all of our usual accounts of the experience start to break down.

Is the fragrance in the rose? If it was, how could you smell it? You're here while the rose is "out there" somewhere. On the other hand, if the rose were removed, you surely wouldn't smell the fragrance. But if you were removed - or if the air in between you and the rose were removed - you also wouldn't smell it.

So is the fragrance in the rose? Is it in your nose? Is it in the air in between? Is it in the air if no one is around to smell it? If so, how could we tell? Is the fragrance in your brain, then? And if it's in your brain, then why is the rose necessary at all?

Ultimately, the simple act of "smelling a rose" - or any other act involving a subject and object - becomes impossible to pin down and utterly insubstantial.

Gradually, however, we can begin to appreciate what the experience of smelling a rose actually entails. It's of the nature of the mirror itself - that is, that the source of all experience is Mind. As such, the act of smelling - or seeing or hearing or touching or thinking - literally has no location. This non-locality is the very essence of Mind.”

Sim Pern Chong commented on above quote from Zen teacher Steve Hagen, “ Soh Wei Yu Wow.. this is really good. Thanks.”

Yin Ling posted, “ Love this. When the “unfindability” taste really sinks in deep, everything becomes really weird. 

Everything floats in space, no location. Even thoughts, emotions.. they just float without an owner, without a location. 

But that insight will need a clear and deep non dual/ anatta insight to really feel the essence of what John is talking up there.”

William Kong

Soh Wei Yu

In above, John uses non-analytical cessation -- is this a synonym for direct-experience?

I've heard Malcolm also use the term "analytical cessation". Can you clarify this term?

I've always interpreted as meaning, upon examining/analysis, these designations for "brain", "floor", "hardness", "world", "in/out", "i/self" etc ... the referents cannot be found; that they are only valid notionally.

Reply1d

William Kong

I found my own answer:

http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php...

Also, more succinctly, I found a Malcolm Smith quote where he states that analytical cessation is due to insight, eg: wisdom.

He also used the term "simple cessation" as a synonym for non-analytical cessation.

Reply17hEdited

Soh Wei Yu

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William Kong

Non analytical cessation is used by john tan to mean states of nirvikalpa samadhi or oblivion without insight into anatta and emptiness.

On the contrary, he said of this quote,

“Khamtrul Rinpoche on the realization of anatta in the Mahamudra text (recommended reading! with lots of pointers for contemplation too):

"At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the

observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and

movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness,

you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also

no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will

experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing

awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable

and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness

and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no

different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru,

properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at

the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization

of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called

“the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization,

or “the vajra mind view.”

"Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."

Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A

Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 242). Shambhala.

John Tan commented on the above:

[9:14 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: This is not just mere experience.

[9:15 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: It sees through the conventions and analysis and realized the emptiness of these conventions...

[7:52 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Until the meditator or agent disappears for good.

[7:53 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Few integrate total exertion and DO into anatta (except Dogen) as the right view, pretty sad.

[7:54 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: But there r some articles that r really good by some tibetan masters.

[7:58 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: which articles?

[8:02 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: I was scanning through our blog and found one article u posted about resting in the 6 senses. Forgotten by which karmapa.

[8:03 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oh.. this one https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../self...

[8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: U r good at finding🤣🤣🤣

[8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Next time I can just ask u...

[8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Lol”

Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III

Self-Liberation by Khamtrul Rinpoche III

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John Tan

William Kong when u say "valid only nominally", do understand that there is functioning and valid functioning means everything for nothing exist essentially. So we are expected to understand how functioning works without essential existence. Like understanding how nominal objects function in our language, in energy system and in liberation and even in science otherwise we become nihilistic.

Reply11mEdited

John Tan

Soh Wei Yu I can't understand y u like to post a simple and casual reply to someone everywhere.🤦

Reply7m

Soh Wei Yu

John Tan I think these are very important pointers for post-anatta contemplation and can be applicable to other people as well.

Reply1m

 true comfort / bliss and peace is in totally resting in that spacious, centerless, brilliant bright and empty nature of mind/appearance, cos the constructing of dualism and i or center making is so constricting it is itself suffering

May all find great ease and bliss in dharmata

I just messaged someone who recently had some breakthrough and deludedly thinks he is already liberated and constantly undistracted all the time and has no more need to meditate or sit:

“If you think you are already liberated, i have nothing more to say, and this shall be my last message to you. I just think you are still far far away and under the sway of serious delusion if you think you are never distracted. If one day you realised your mistake, i suggest you seek a good teacher.

I will just leave you with this quote from Dogen:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/how-silent-meditation-helped-me-with.html

Partial excerpt:

“

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from this very place; what is the use of traveling around to practice? And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth. If the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion. Suppose you are confident in your understanding and rich in enlightenment, gaining the wisdom that knows at a glance, attaining the Way and clarifying the mind, arousing an aspiration to reach for the heavens. You are playing in the entranceway, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation.

Consider the Buddha: although he was wise at birth, the traces of his six years of upright sitting can yet be seen. As for Bodhidharma, although he had received the mind-seal, his nine years of facing a wall is celebrated still. If even the ancient sages were like this, how can we today dispense with wholehearted practice?”

As for myself, I have no time to waste on conversations going in circles and will be doing my sitting.”

....

Tyler Jones

I think it's very different if a person has reached a point that they feel that they don't suffer anymore, so the sense of the need to practice is gone, vs the idea that they are "enlightened" so there is nothing more to do. Probably a lot of people get to some level of awakening and are content to just live their life, rather than strive toward anuttara samyak sambohi.

Reply15h

Soh Wei Yu

Tyler Jones it is also very possible that someone feels they dont suffer anymore, even at the I AM stage, and then feel they don’t need to practice any more and stop short of anuttara samyaksam bodhi

One should judge one’s progress at least by the ten fetter model, and the checklist here https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato

Then if one is a follower of mahayana or vajrayana, one should judge by the criterias of bhumis and whether one has completely eliminated all traces of cognitive obscurations on top of eliminating all traces of emotional or afflictive obscurations, http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html

Most people have a bit of breakthrough and think “thats good enough” but are far from either goal. In fact they probably haven’t even attained stream entry proper, they have not even properly realised anatman. Even if one has realised anatman it is truly just another beginning

Reply9hEdited

Soh Wei Yu

Tyler Jones

Then when one truly attains buddhahood, you will want to sit anyway. Buddha continued his daily meditation and spent months on retreat each year, even though “done is what is to be done” and so on.

When you are there, you will have mastery of both samadhi and wisdom, and your equipoise will be constant.

It is only when one has not mastered one’s practice that their minds are not inclined to silence and meditation and lack equanimity.

Reply9hEdited

Soh Wei Yu

Tyler Jones

“Don't listen to people saying (that there’s) no need for meditation. These are people with only small attainment and realisation.” - John Tan, 2007

"This is an overstatement. Meditation can only be deemed unnecessary when a practitioner has completely dissolved the illusionary view of a self. If a person is able to totally dissolve the self in his first experience of non-duality, he is either the cream of the crop among the enlightened… or he is overwhelmed and got carried away by the non-dual experience. More often than not the latter is more likely. It is a pity if a person has experienced non-duality and yet is ignorant of the strength of his karmic propensities. Just be truthful and practice with a sincere heart, it will not be difficult to discover the deeper layer of consciousness and experience the workings of karmic momentum from moment to moment.

Having said so, it is also true that there will come a time when sitting meditation is deemed redundant and that is when the self liberation aspect of our nature is fully experienced. By then one would be completely fearless, crystal clear and non-attached. The practice of the 2 doors of no-self and impermanence will prepare us for the true insight of the spontaneous and self liberating aspect of our nature to arise." - John Tan, 2007

Reply9h

Tyler Jones

🙏

Reply8h

Brian Carpenter

When each moment is the practice whether sitting, working, driving, ect then it doesn't matter what is being done. Always just this noticing.

From the platform sutra

One practice samadhi means at all times, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, always practicing with a straightforward mind. The vimalakirti sutra says 'A straightforward mind is the place of enlightenment,' and 'A straightforward mind is the pure land.' Don't practice hypocrisy with your mind, while you talk about being straightforward with your mouth. If you speak about one practice samadhi with your mouth, but you don't practice with a straightforward mind, you're no disciple of the Buddha. Simply practice with a straightforward mind and don't become attached to any Dharma. This is what is meant by one practice samadhi.

Deluded people who cling to the external attributes of a Dharma get hold of one practice samadhi and just say that sitting motionless, eliminating delusions, and not thinking thoughts are one practice samadhi. But if that were true, a dharma like that would be the same as lifelessness and would constitute an obstruction of the way instead, the way has to flow freely, why block it up? The way flows freely when mind doesn't dwell on any Dharma, once it dwells on something, it becomes bound, if sitting motionless were right, Vimalakirti wouldn't have criticised Shariputra for meditating in the forest.

Good friends, I know there are people who tell others devote themselves to sitting and contemplating their minds on purity and not to move or think. Deluded people are unaware, so they turn things upside down with their attachments. There are hundreds of such people who teach the way like this. But they are, you should know, greatly mistaken.

Good friends, what are meditation and wisdom like? They're like a lamp and its light. When there's a lamp, there's light. When there's no lamp, there's no light. The lamp is the light's body, and the light is there lamp's function. They have two names but not two bodies. This teaching concerning meditation and wisdom is also like this.

Good friends, the Dharma isn't direct or indirect. It's people who are sharp or dull. For those who are deluded, there is indirect persuasion. For those who are aware, there is direct cultivation: Know your mind and see your nature. For those who are aware, there is basically no separation. For those who aren't aware, these are infinite kalpas on the wheel of rebirth.

Good friends, since ancient times, this Dharma teaching of ours, both its direct and indirect versions, has proclaimed 'no thought' as its doctrine, 'no form' as its body, and 'no attachment' as its foundation. What do we mean by a form that is 'no form'? To be free of form in the presence of forms. And 'no thought'? Not to think about thoughts. And 'no attachment,' which is everyone basic nature? Thought after thought, not to become attached. Whether it's a past thought, present thought, or future thought, let one thought follow another without interruption. Once a thought is interrupted, the dharma body becomes separated from the material body. When you go from one thought to another, don't become attached to any Dharma. Once one thought becomes attached, every thought becomes attached, which is what we call 'bondage'. But when you go from one thought to another without becoming attached to any Dharma, there's no bondage. This is why no attachment is our foundation.

Good friends, 'no form' means externally to be free of all forms. If you can just be free of forms, the body of your nature is perfectly pure. This is why we take 'no form as our body.' To be unaffected by any object is what is meant by 'no thought,' to be free of objects in our thoughts and not give rise to thoughts about Dharmas. But don't think about nothing at all. Once your thoughts stop, you die and are reborn somewhere else. Students of the way take heed, don't misunderstand the meaning of this teaching. It's one thing to be mistaken yourself, but quite another to lead others astray then to criticise the teaching of the sutras while remaining unaware that you yourself are lost. Thus the reason we proclaim 'no thought' as our doctrine is because deluded people think in terms of objects, and on the basis of these thoughts they give rise to erroneous views. This is the origin of all afflictions and delusions.

Nevertheless when this school proclaims 'no thought' as its doctrine, those people who transcend objects and who don't give rise to thoughts, even though they have no thoughts, they do not then proclaim 'no thought.' What does 'no' negate? And what thought is 'thought' about? 'No' negates dualities and afflictions. And 'thought' is thought about the original nature of reality. Reality is the body of thought, and thought is the function of reality. When your nature gives rise to thought, even though you sense something, remain free and unaffected by the world of objects. The Vimalakirti sutra says, 'externally, be skilled at distinguishing the attributes of Dharmas, and internally, remain unchanged by the ultimate truth.'

Good friends, in this school of the Dharma, when we practice Zen, we don't contemplate the mind, and we don't contemplate purity, and we don't talk about being dispassionate. If someone says to contemplate the mind, the mind is basically a delusion. And because a delusion is the same as an illusion, there is nothing to contemplate.

Reply42m

Soh Wei Yu

Brian Carpenter

That does not mean sitting meditation is unimportant. Hui neng also practices sitting meditation.… See more

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Soh Wei Yu

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planetbyter

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6 yr. ago

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edited 6 yr. ago

山河

Sitting meditation vs meditation is still meditation. This means that sitting meditation isn't ruled out. And there is no denying that there is a pretty decent amount of emphasis on practice and cultivation of both wisdom and knowledge. Huineng says many, MANY times in this text that meditation is wisdom, and wisdom is meditation.

Everything in the Platform Sutra written by Huineng also relates to former sutras, such as the Diamond, Vimalakirti, Lotus, and Nirvana Sutras– with a Huineng flair to the teachings.

There was also a lot of speculation in the 1940's about the translations and how some of texts could be idealized to purport a sense of Buddhist Hagiography, but such posits are disproven as there are many Christian or Secular scholars today that have translated the Platform Sutra from original text to also garner its true meaning outside the biases of hagiographic translation.

And there are a Chan Buddhist masters that have taught both gradual and sudden enlightenment– and even Huineng himself doesn't discredit the gradualist approach entirely.

Dongshan, Linji, Hakuin, Zongmi, and Sheng Yun, all supported gradualism. I know you don't think Hakuin and Zongmi aren't Zen masters, but Linji and Dongshan? Really?

Huineng merely explains that the difference between gradual and sudden is in terms of the student's conceptual intuitive abilities– but he also prescribes practice– not for enlightenment, but for the cultivation of wisdom and knowledge (and eventually compassion in the Bodhisattva Ideals).

The Tso-chan-i (Principles of Zazen) is a premiere Chan Buddhist work that outlines the techniques of meditation.

These Chan meditation techniques that breed cultivation and realization were first founded according to the Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment and The Awakening of Faith sutras.

The practice taught in this text seems to be at the core of the dispute in later Chan Buddhism between "sudden" and "gradual" teachings of the "Northern and Southern schools" illustrated in the Platform Sutra.

The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment was intended to resolve questions regarding doctrine and meditation for the earliest practitioners of the Chan schools.

Huineng advocates the “samadhi of oneness,” or concentrated attention to the present situation: “The samadhi of oneness is straightforward mind at all times, walking, staying, sitting, and lying.” This constitutes an intriguing practice of mindful, meditative action performed with attentive detachment.

Again, Huineng never challenges sitting meditation at all. He advocates for differing techniques with an emphasis on sudden enlightenment, but never does he say that sitting meditation is entirely wrong, and when he begins to hint at such a position, it is a heuristic tool for the learning– not meant to be taken literally.

Huineng and the text of the Platform Sutra thus underscore the highly ritualized nature of Chan life, a fact that several scholars have noted and which provides yet another strong contrast to popular misunderstandings of Chan. Rather than being an incitement to egocentric spontaneity, the “sudden awakening” espoused by Huineng can only occur within a ritual context in which all parties are actively engaged. Those involved are not “doing their own thing” but participating in a shared activity in which all energies are marshaled in concert. It is just for this reason that Huineng stresses the “samadhi of oneness” and Chan monastic training involves meditation training not just during periods of actual physical sitting but throughout all daily activities.

So Huineng and his monks sat and meditated, but also practiced meditation while walking, cleaning, etc. which can still be found in Soto and Rinzai monasteries today!

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Soh Wei Yu

Leperkonvict

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3 yr. ago

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edited 3 yr. ago

Huairang, famously, to Mazu:

In learning sitting meditation, do you aspire to learn sitting Zen or do you aspire to imitate the sitting Buddha? If the former, Zen doesn’t consist in sitting or lying down. If the latter you must know the Buddha has no fixed postures. The dharma goes on forever and never abides in anything. You must not therefore be attached to or abandon any particular phase of it. To sit with the purpose of becoming a Buddha is to kill the Buddha. To be attached to the sitting posture is to fail to comprehend the essential principle.

In other words Zen Masters never rejected sitting meditation, they rejected the idea that ANY practice or philosophy could ever magically bring you to some imaginary future Buddha hood outside of this moment.

Dahui:

You must in one fell swoop break through this one thought—then and only then will you comprehend birth and death. Then and only then will it be called accessing awakening… .You need only lay down, all at once, the mind full of deluded thoughts and inverted thinking, the mind of logical discrimination, the mind that loves life and hates death, the mind of knowledge and views, interpretation and comprehension, and the mind that rejoices in stillness and turns from disturbance.

...

Nowadays they sound a signal to sit and meditate. If you want a solemn scene, there you have it, but I don’t believe you can sit to the point where you attain stability. People who hear this kind of talk often think I do not teach people to sit and meditate, but this is a misperception; they do not understand expedient technique. I just want you to be in Zen meditation whether you are working or sitting, to be essentially at peace whether you are speaking, silent, active, or still.

The most common misperception in this forum is that Zen Masters rejected meditation. Which couldn't be anymore further from the Truth.

Meditation was and still is a major part of Zen Monasteries.

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royalsaltmerchant

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3 yr. ago

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edited 3 yr. ago

SaltyZen

either you are daft or you can't read because your Mazu quote is a rejection of sitting meditation. Contradicting yourself.

"Zen doesn’t consist in sitting or lying down"

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Soh Wei Yu

Leperkonvict

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3 yr. ago

No dude, I can definitely read, but you are reading in a very shallow manner and you don’t understand what went on back than with meditation practices. Meditation practices were the norm back than and Zen came in with a punch! It was an approach and critique to the practice but not a rejection. The critique being cultivation or the attainment of Buddhahood via sitting. It’s Zen 101.

I know it’s hard for you to get but just keep reading and studying Zen and it will come around.

Have you read any Bielefeldt?

“Part of the problem lies with the word 'Zen (Chinese: Chan) master' itself. If we look at Tang sources such as the Xu gaoseng zhuan 續高僧傳, the term ‘Chan master’ (chanshi 禪師)—used to categorise such figures as Bodhidharma and his disciple Huike—means ‘master of meditation’. It is only in the Song period that the term evolves to mean the master of a certain lineage, namely a ‘Chan school’. Concurrent with the rise of the 'Chan school' is the appearance of anti-meditation sentiment.

Bielefedlt writes:

It is not entirely without reason that Zen Buddhism is known as the Meditation School. Visitors to the modern Zen monastery, even if they are prepared to find meditation there, cannot but be struck by the extent to which the practice dominates the routine. […] Yet there is another sense in which Zen Buddhism appears to be an “anti-meditation” school. For, whatever Zen monks may talk about in private, when they discuss their practice in public, they often seem to go out of their way to distance themselves from the ancient Buddhist exercises of samadhi and to criticize the traditional cultivation of dhyana. The two Japanese Zen schools, Rinzai and Soto, have their own characteristic ways of going about this: the former most often attacks absorption in trance as mindless quietism—what it sometimes calls the “ghost cave” (kikatsu) of the spirit—and claims to replace it with the more dynamic technique of kanna, or koan study; the latter rejects the utilitarian component of contemplative technique—the striving, as it says, to “make a Buddha” (sabutsu)--and offers in its stead what it considers the less psychologically limited, more spiritually profound practice of shikan taza, or “just sitting”.”

As you see Soto never misinterpreted the old Zen Masters(like yourself)but was in fact inspired and one could even say Shikantaza was born from the teachings and criticism of the old Zen masters, Dogen may have wanted to take credit for Shikantaza but that’s debatable.

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Leperkonvict

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3 yr. ago

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edited 3 yr. ago

I'll speak how I want

You would get kicked out of the Monasteries back than for refusing to practice zazen. This is a fact.

No sect in zen Buddhism says that meditation is a means, once again because you can't read, they were actually against that.

No

Have fun excessively making threads about seated practice showing just how attached you are to it, come to think of it, you've made more threads than me. LMAO. That my friend is not liberation. Lol. 😂😂

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Soh Wei Yu

Meditation is not restricted to sitting, but sitting meditation is still important.

Meditation should be 24/7, for example in cleaning the toilet, in cooking dishes, and so on.

I like for example, Zen teacher Shinshu Robert's expression of total exertion in ordinary activities:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/being-time-by-shinshu-roberts.html

Excerpt:

"Deep Investigation

In the United States, we often hear about mindfulness associated with Buddhism. A popular definition of mindfulness is a kind of complete attention on an activity and its object. For instance as we are washing dishes, we might be saying to ourselves, "I am washing a plate," and focusing our thoughts on the feeling of the activity itself. We might slow down, follow our breath, and put all our focus on the sensation of the task as an object of our attention.

This would not be how Dogen would approach the practice of deep investigation or exhaustive penetration. He might be describe the activity of washing dishes as washing washes washing, thereby removing the subject-object relationship. Mindfulness may be a dharma gate to intimacy, but it is not the Zen practice of exhaustively penetrating the totality of one's experience. In the true intimacy of complete engagement there is no labeling of self or other that comes from paying attention to something outside the self.

When engaging in work practice, a Soto Zen student is interacting with the totality of all the elements arising within the context of that activity. This means that one makes effort to fulfill the task in such a way that one is respectful of the tools used, the context of the work, the instructions of the work leader, the time allotted for the task, and working in unison with others. The purpose of our effort is to complete the job through our total exertion and practice with the task itself. It is not to be mindful of the activity as an object of our attention. When we are able to engage in work this way, we drop our own agenda and fully engage with the complete activity of cleaning and community.

Included in this intimate total immersion in the being-time of a particular moment is the simultaneous arising of all being-time. This nondualism is not separate from the relative or everyday. Washing dishes is not special. By entering the world of washing dishes, we enter the whole world, which is our world, by jumping in with wholehearted effort.

Dharmas Are Real Form

Nishijima and Cross translate Waddell and Abe's "penetrating exhaustively" as "perfectly realizing" and associate it with a phrase from the Lotus Sutra: "buddhas alone, together with buddhas, can perfectly realize that all dharmas are real form." Dogen unpacks the meaning of real form in "Shoho Jisso" (All Dharmas Are Real Form):

"Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, waking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are."

This perfect realization is all dharmas totally expressing their true nature. We are "buddhas alone, together with buddhas." We remember the true state of ourselves and all being(s).

The integrated self is therefore not separate from all being-time. For this reason, Dogen writes earlier in "Uji," "to set the self out in array is to make the world," which is the singular expression of "entirely worldling the entire world with the whole world.""

Being-Time by Shinshu Roberts

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Being-Time by Shinshu Roberts

Being-Time by Shinshu Roberts

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Soh Wei Yu

Actually if you understood what Shinshu Roberts mentioned above, you will also see why it is not so much of "noticing". More on anatta and total exertion as explained in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

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