Conversation in May 2007

(8:19 PM) Thusness: tok about da zhi mu fa...

(8:19 PM) Thusness: what is it?

(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm... i add truthz over can? hehehe

(8:21 PM) Thusness: okie

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama has been added to the conversation.

(8:21 PM) AEN: hi truth

(8:21 PM) AEN: hehe

(8:21 PM) Thusness: hi.

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama: hello

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama:

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama: i dunno how to explain da zhi mu fa

(8:22 PM) AEN: wah lao u dunnu i also dunno

(8:22 PM) AEN: hahahaha

(8:22 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:22 PM) ??? Sama: hahaa

(8:23 PM) Thusness: this name of this practice is given by?

(8:23 PM) ??? Sama: Master (Ven Shen Kai)

(8:23 PM) AEN: da zhi mu fa verse is something like 'qian nian yi guo (the past thought has gone), hou nian bu qi (the future thought does not arise), zhong jian yuan zhan kai lai wu liang wu bian (in the middle extend openly into limitless, boundless infinity)'... its like transcending thought and sustaining the state of presence....

(8:24 PM) ??? Sama: expanding the gap betw 2 thots

(8:25 PM) Thusness: the name is given by?

(8:25 PM) AEN: in the v beginning he never teach much, he only gave these four verses for his students to 'can1' (like koan)... but now teacher chen giving more details talks

(8:25 PM) AEN: orh

(8:25 PM) ??? Sama: master

(8:25 PM) AEN: i tink master shen kai..

(8:25 PM) ??? Sama: master sheng kai

(8:25 PM) AEN: i tink the word derives from prajna, which master shen kai also say is 'mother of wisdom'

(8:25 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:26 PM) Thusness: da zhi mu fa

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why da

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why zhi

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why mu

(8:26 PM) Thusness: ?

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mu is mom

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mother

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mu being the prajna

(8:26 PM) Thusness: yeah...

(8:26 PM) Thusness: but why da zhi mu?

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: wisdom flowing out of this mu

(8:27 PM) Thusness: first ur master shen kai has some thought before he came out this title.

(8:27 PM) Thusness: Da means?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: big

(8:28 PM) Thusness: what is he thinking when he said Da?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: hehe

(8:28 PM) AEN: without boundary?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: hmm

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: great wisdom...

(8:28 PM) Thusness: how great?

(8:29 PM) ??? Sama: y u ask how great?

(8:29 PM) AEN: hmm boundless?

(8:30 PM) Thusness: u must know...coz u do not know the thoughts of ur master.

(8:30 PM) ??? Sama: i oso think it just means boundless lor

(8:31 PM) Thusness: if your master never put thoughts in the name of the title, then one is not being serious in ones teaching.

(8:32 PM) Thusness: a serious practitioner will always want to put all and everything into as short sentence as possible.

(8:32 PM) Thusness: the lesser the better.

(8:32 PM) AEN: oic.. how come

(8:32 PM) Thusness: until none.

(8:32 PM) AEN: icic

(8:32 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(8:32 PM) Thusness: da is not big.

(8:32 PM) ??? Sama: then wot does this great imply?

(8:34 PM) Thusness: means great but this great like what AEN said is without boundary

(8:34 PM) Thusness: means he does not know how great or big

(8:34 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:34 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:35 PM) Thusness: but in his mind, he expressed it as da...without limit, or small without size.

(8:35 PM) Thusness: zhi is wisdom...

(8:35 PM) Thusness: this wisdom is without limit, it is not ordinary form of wisdom.

(8:36 PM) Thusness: and why mother?

(8:36 PM) ??? Sama: source?

(8:37 PM) AEN: mother bcos it arises wisdom?

(8:37 PM) Thusness: what ur master is trying to imply is the way, the path, the technique that gives birth to the great wisdom without limit.

(8:37 PM) Thusness: he wanted to convey this technique to all his followers.

(8:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:38 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:38 PM) Thusness: there are so many paths, so many techniques, so many ways

(8:38 PM) AEN: hmm but from wat i read master shen kai always say all dharmas eventually come to 'da zhi mu'.. something like tat

(8:38 PM) Thusness: some say this, some say that....but what ur master think is this is the way that can give birth to this wisdom.

(8:39 PM) AEN: icic

(8:39 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:39 PM) Thusness: so what is the way that can give birth to this wisdom?

(8:40 PM) Thusness: the past thought is gone, the future thought hasn't arise, right now....expand the gap limitless wide...

(8:40 PM) Thusness: this is the way, the path towards the birth of wisdom.

(8:40 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:40 PM) ??? Sama: ok..

(8:41 PM) Thusness: just this way, this simple way will give rise to wisdom.

(8:41 PM) Thusness: that is nakedness of awareness

(8:41 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:41 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:42 PM) Thusness: when ur master thought of the name, I think he put much effort into it.

(8:43 PM) Thusness: but many takes it as a name and practice as what it is...trying to visualize what will happen

(8:43 PM) Thusness: and what is it about...

(8:43 PM) Thusness: and to see what...

(8:43 PM) Thusness: so what there is nakedness, what is seen?

(8:44 PM) AEN: awareness?

(8:44 PM) Thusness: what awareness?

(8:44 PM) Thusness: or what is awareness?

(8:45 PM) AEN: erm.. like our buddha nature? without limits and boundaries

(8:45 PM) Thusness: that is definition

(8:45 PM) AEN: icic

(8:45 PM) Thusness: what is seen?

(8:45 PM) ??? Sama: what is?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: and what is, what is?

(8:46 PM) AEN: but many takes it as a name and practice as what it is...trying to visualize what will happen --> yea lzls say some ppl practise visualising expanding to include the house, then the town, then Singapore, then Malaysia, etc.. lol. then she say that is not 'boundless'

(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:46 PM) AEN: clarity?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: no no...

(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is seen when previous thought is gone, new thought hasn't arise, right there...what is it?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is what is?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: i have said so many times....

(8:47 PM) AEN: everything? lol

(8:47 PM) Thusness: and what is everything?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: now?

(8:47 PM) AEN: means every seeing, hearing, etc?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: what is it now?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: don't define...

(8:48 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:48 PM) Thusness: hmm...ur head!

(8:48 PM) AEN: lol

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the words that form on the screen

(8:48 PM) ??? Sama: dun define how to write

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the keyboard..

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the sound of the basket balls

(8:48 PM) AEN: icic

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the air

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the breathe

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the everything...

(8:49 PM) ??? Sama: is it like wot u say, the fabric, texture of reality

(8:49 PM) Thusness: because the mind that is bound cannot know the essence of all these...he/she doesn't know the instantaneous moment of reality.

(8:49 PM) Thusness: yes...then entirety of the single flash....the fabric and texture of reality...

(8:49 PM) AEN: icic.. yea.. master said something like if anapanasati is awareness of breathing, da zhi mu is 'whole awareness'

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the very wisdom right now...

(8:50 PM) AEN: oic

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the limitless wisdom that is boundless

(8:50 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:50 PM) Thusness: that words that form on the screen is already the wisdom.

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the essence and that is all.

(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:51 PM) Thusness: when u practice, enter with this understanding and heart.

(8:51 PM) ??? Sama: is there a phrase call 'guan ru shi'?

(8:51 PM) Thusness: otherwise not a single thing is known.

(8:51 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:51 PM) Thusness: what is...

(8:51 PM) AEN: icic

(8:52 PM) ??? Sama: so is da zhi mu fa is = guan ru shi?

(8:52 PM) Thusness: guan ru shi means?

(8:53 PM) ??? Sama: touching n feeling the texture, taste, smell, hear...

(8:54 PM) Thusness: ur master wants u to know that the very moment of luminosity in nakedness is the very wisdom itself.

(8:54 PM) Thusness: whatever arises at the moment of nakedness is the very wisdom. :)

(8:54 PM) Thusness: anything besides that is not what he wants u to know.

(8:55 PM) ??? Sama: does it mean that our hearing 'ting jue (jue = awareness)' or sight 'shi jue', etc r already the awareness?

(8:55 PM) Thusness: and the depth of experience is not in words. :)

(8:55 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:55 PM) AEN: oic

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: so basically i just guan wotever my senses jue (awareness)... n as it is.. that is reality already?

(8:56 PM) Thusness: yes. :)

(8:56 PM) Thusness: the five aggregate is buddha nature.

(8:56 PM) Thusness: but a dualistic mind can't see.

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: wot abt the thots floating ard?

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: that is oso the reality?

(8:57 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:57 PM) Thusness: but u must know what is dualistic and what is non-dualistic.

(8:57 PM) Thusness: means there is nothing that is not it.

(8:57 PM) ??? Sama: explain?

(8:57 PM) Thusness: but the inability to see causes pain.

(8:57 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(8:57 PM) Thusness: though everything is it, the mind is unable to know.

(8:58 PM) AEN: truthz: like teacher chen said about poking someone... the pain sensation is just the awareness, but later when asked he said "I was in pain", tats dualistic thought

(8:58 PM) ??? Sama: rite.. n the thot that it is pain is oso it

(8:58 PM) AEN: yes

(8:58 PM) Thusness: but the mind that completely puts down the past thoughts, and free itself from future thoughts, resting upon nothing and not even now sees clarity.

(8:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:59 PM) Thusness: this is the is the way towards liberation.

(8:59 PM) Thusness: anything besides that is extra...

(9:00 PM) AEN: oic

(9:00 PM) Thusness: when we feel the incredible realness, the tremendous clarity, experience the boundlessness of this instantaneous moment, then it is clear.

(9:00 PM) Thusness: there is no need to define or ask any thing.

(9:01 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:01 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(9:01 PM) Thusness: so AEN this saturday...listen with this basic understanding.

(9:01 PM) AEN: icic.. ok

(9:01 PM) Thusness: and enter the explanation. :)

(9:02 PM) Thusness: it will be clearer for u. :)

(9:02 PM) AEN: oic.. ok

(9:02 PM) ??? Sama: wot time start?

(9:02 PM) ??? Sama: i oso go hehe...

(9:02 PM) AEN: lol

(9:02 PM) AEN: 7.30 p.m

(9:02 PM) Thusness: :)

(9:02 PM) AEN: playing da zhi mu fa

(9:03 PM) ??? Sama: john, is da zhi mu fa same thing as wot Padmasambhava talk of seeing with naked awareness?

(9:03 PM) ??? Sama: ya i guess as much

(9:03 PM) Thusness: there are many stages to it...the entrance until the entire experience...

(9:04 PM) Thusness: the way towards opening the gate towards great wisdom is this way.

(9:04 PM) Thusness: like insight meditation

(9:04 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:04 PM) Thusness: but the meaning of it...u must know at least in a conventional sense.

(9:05 PM) Thusness: then ur master will not waste his effort naming this technique....ehehehehe

(9:05 PM) AEN: oic.. haha

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: hehe

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: he wont jump from his grave liao

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: since he's already schooling

(9:06 PM) Thusness: lol

(9:06 PM) AEN: lol

(9:06 PM) Thusness: ang mo now...

(9:06 PM) AEN: half ang mo half chinese

(9:06 PM) ??? Sama: best of both worlds

(9:06 PM) AEN: haha

(9:06 PM) ??? Sama: black hair?

(9:07 PM) ??? Sama: ask ur dad ship him a PS3 lah, AEN

(9:07 PM) AEN: hahahah

(9:08 PM) Thusness: :)

(9:10 PM) ??? Sama: master said our 6 senses r like electric appliances... n awareness is the electricity

(9:11 PM) AEN: oic.. where?

(9:11 PM) ??? Sama: i forgot..

(9:11 PM) AEN: icic

(9:11 PM) ??? Sama: jue is like the dian ma

(9:12 PM) ??? Sama: then dian flow thru the yan jue, er jue,etc

(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:13 PM) Thusness: it is just an illustration.

(9:13 PM) ??? Sama: ya

(9:14 PM) Thusness: when we tok about buddha teachings, the essence should be so:

(9:14 PM) Thusness: the electricity should not be taken as an entity.

(9:14 PM) Thusness: the organs are part of the conditions for manifestations

(9:15 PM) AEN: icic

(9:15 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:15 PM) Thusness: when condition arises, it is the luminosity of the appearances that u must know

(9:15 PM) Thusness: u never see or know what awareness is unless through conditions where appearances manifest

(9:16 PM) ??? Sama: luminosity does it mean wot u see actually glows?

(9:16 PM) Thusness: that vividness of appearance is awareness in real time and life.

(9:16 PM) AEN: ya i tink vividness is the rite word

(9:16 PM) Thusness: not what i see glows, it is the seeing is the object is the awareness

(9:17 PM) AEN: like 'being' the seeing

(9:17 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:18 PM) AEN: mindfulness has a vivid quality esp when the sense of duality decreases or disappears... then u 'become' the trees, the flowers, etc

(9:19 PM) ??? Sama: ic

Yin Ling: "Doc, do u know any youtube video explaining heart sutra in mandarin which u feel is good? Its for family members who are more inclined with chinese 🙏🏼"

You guys can help? My mandarin resource  is none


IMO, if, they only have time to watch two hours, then maybe and 

this one is a longer 20 video series 

Yin Ling: 

Thanks 😁I know you sure got resource haha


intro by john in 2008 lol 

(12:39 PM) Thusness:
(12:39 PM) Thusness: non-dual insight.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: not to misunderstand that the master doesn't know what is non-dual or emptiness.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: there is deep clarity. :)

Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008

(12:29 AM) Thusness: U must watch the second video
(12:29 AM) AEN: which one
(12:29 AM) AEN: the one that explains oneness rite
(12:30 AM) Thusness: And know the difference between Advaita non-dual and buddhism anatta
(12:30 AM) Thusness: Not only that.
(12:30 AM) AEN: u mean the second or third video
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second and third
(12:31 AM) AEN: btw the video is advaita non dual rite
(12:31 AM) Thusness: Second I watched liao.  
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:31 AM) AEN: the third one is talking about wat.. momentum?
(12:31 AM) Thusness: The cartoon Yes...
(12:31 AM) AEN: icic
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The second is much deeper.
(12:32 AM) AEN: btw is that still stage based or like stage 2?
(12:32 AM) AEN: u mean the third video?
(12:32 AM) Thusness: The url I posted u.
(12:33 AM) AEN: huh which one
(12:33 AM) AEN: wait ah
(12:33 AM) AEN: the url u posted leads to the chanting :P
(12:33 AM) AEN: the first video
(12:34 AM) AEN: u're talking about the donkey one or wat
(12:34 AM) Thusness: ???? (Yuan Yin Lao Ren)
(12:34 AM) Thusness: No
(12:35 AM) Thusness: the second explanations
(12:35 AM) Thusness: I will watch all of it.
(12:35 AM) AEN: wait
(12:35 AM) Thusness: If I got time.
(12:35 AM) AEN: the one u said is in the same series rite?
(12:36 AM) Thusness: Yes
(12:37 AM) AEN: i cant find what ???? leh :P first one chanting, second one is the oneness, third one is the donkey, fourth is chanting beads
(12:37 AM) AEN: fifth is spider
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Then u posted wrongly on the buddhism forum.
(12:38 AM) AEN: o.0
(12:38 AM) AEN: then what u clicked.. lol
(12:38 AM) AEN: u said in the same series rite?
(12:38 AM) Thusness: Too bad.  He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
(12:38 AM) Thusness: But dead liao.
(12:38 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:39 AM) AEN: wait
(12:39 AM) AEN: u mean the ???? video is the cartoon series?
(12:39 AM) AEN: i mean
(12:39 AM) AEN: not*
(12:39 AM) Thusness: No
(12:39 AM) Thusness: Not cartoon.
(12:39 AM) AEN: ooh
(12:39 AM) AEN: then i wrong liao
(12:40 AM) AEN: btw the cartoon u said stage 2 understanding but stage 5 experience... then is that pathless?
(12:41 AM) Thusness: No
(12:41 AM) Thusness: The cartoon is not about emptiness
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic
(12:42 AM) Thusness: Some explanations r still ok
(12:42 AM) AEN: but is it pathless or stage like experience
(12:43 AM) Thusness: Not pathless
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness: That is just my view.
(12:44 AM) Thusness: U just hv to know.
(12:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:44 AM) AEN: btw the ???? isit a 20 minute video?
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Longer than that
(12:45 AM) Thusness: Think abt an hour.
(12:46 AM) AEN: aiya u send me wrong URL just now :P
(12:46 AM) AEN: send me back to the cartoon.. hahaha
(12:46 AM) Thusness: If u can understand what he said, u will understand the essence of 5 and 6.
(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 AM) AEN: he also describe stage 6?
(12:47 AM) Thusness: Not describe but direct experience.
(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:48 AM) Thusness: One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
(12:48 AM) Thusness: Direct experience
(12:48 AM) AEN: oic.. u mean he didnt use emptiness as raft?
(12:49 AM) Thusness: I dunno
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic
(12:49 AM) Thusness: Got to listen more.
(12:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:50 AM) Thusness: he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
(12:50 AM) Thusness: Self liberation
(12:51 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:55 AM) Thusness is now Offline
(12:58 AM) AEN: btw the cartoons are not from ???? leh :P
(1:58 AM) AEN: ???? said he go pure land: ??????????????,?????????,?????????? ,??,????????,
(1:58 AM) AEN: btw he vajrayana practitioner?
(2:45 AM) AEN: ahaha last part a bit funny, someone thought he attained enlightenment then call the master, the master told him u havent attain enlightenment yet :P
(2:50 AM) AEN: the master seems to recommend chanting and rebirth in pure land more than meditation
(3:20 AM) AEN: -- video 19, 14:00 minute onwards, the master talk about shen hsiu's poem on the mirror is still grasping on form, hui neng's poem on mirror without stand is grasping on formless... and he made his own poem, ?????,?????
?????, ?????
(3:22 AM) AEN: ????: ???: ?????? ???????????: ?????! ?????,???????????,?? ???????? ??????????????: ?????,?????? ?????,?????????! ?????,????? ?????,????????????,?????,????,????!???????????????????
(3:40 PM) AEN: btw a few days ago i dreamt that u sent me a online video link and tell me go watch, then 2 days later u really send me a video link.. hahaha
(3:42 PM) Thusness: from non-dual to anatta and to emptiness.  You must have clarity.
(3:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:42 PM) AEN: i just finished watching the first video
(3:43 PM) Thusness: the second one is important
(3:43 PM) AEN: oh u finished the part 2?
(3:43 PM) AEN: the one that started with tantric practice one
(3:43 PM) Thusness: then tell me why is it so important
(3:44 PM) Thusness: then u have to refine ur understanding of non-duality from ken wilber and advaita understanding and buddhism approach.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: When u have the experience later, u will know what i meant.
(3:44 PM) Thusness: but it is not easy.
(3:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness: no self from the 5 aggregates to 18 dhatus to DO to Empty Luminosity.
(3:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:47 PM) AEN: btw u said the 2nd video
(3:47 PM) AEN: isit the one that started about tantric practice
(3:49 PM) Thusness: 36
(3:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(3:51 PM) AEN: ya that one it started discussing about tantric practice
(3:51 PM) AEN: i haven watch yet
(3:57 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(3:58 PM) AEN: i later then watch..
(3:58 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(10:58 PM) AEN: the 2nd one is impt cos it incorporates emptiness rite, it talks about non duality but also explains that all forms are empty and impermanent
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Not only that.
(11:01 PM) Thusness: Compare what he said abt stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: Anyway I wrote something about stage 6.
(11:03 PM) Thusness: For u to have a clearer understanding.
(11:04 PM) Thusness: Why it is very important to have clear understanding of emptiness
(11:05 PM) Thusness: How u should move from non-dual to buddhist anatta, DO and emptiness.
(11:06 PM) AEN: icic.. ok
(11:08 PM) Thusness: After stabilizing non-dual experience, it is very important to establish firm view on Emptiness.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of establishing firm view of emptiness and DO.
(11:10 PM) Thusness: Don't be worried of being non-conceptual.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) Thusness: Non-dual experience will lead u to non-conceptuality, to naked awareness naturally.
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) Thusness: But for prajna wisdom to arise, establish firmly ur understanding of DO and emptiness.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness: After understanding of non-dual experience from the Buddha's teachings of anatta, DO and emptiness.  u will become very clear.
(11:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:17 PM) Thusness: It needs few years to understand non-dual from Buddha's teachings.
(11:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:18 PM) Thusness: The pre-requisite is a stabilized non-dual experience.
(11:19 PM) AEN: oic ya longchen also realised emptiness after stabilizing his non dual experience and also 2-3 years after first realising non dual rite
(11:22 PM) Thusness: you will understand why impermanence yet no movement correctly.
(11:22 PM) Thusness: Yes...
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness: But still need to incorporate non-dual experience into anatta, emptiness and DO.  This will need another 2-3 yrs.
(11:24 PM) Thusness: Will write something about it.
(11:25 PM) Thusness: It is very important.
(11:25 PM) AEN: u mean it will take another 2-3 years after stabilized non-dual experience?
(11:25 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:29 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing non-dual experience for 2y,  another 2-3 yrs r needed to understand emptiness aspect of our non-dual luminosity.
(11:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:30 PM) AEN: so longchen is only beginning to understand emptiness and still needs a few years?
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Understand as in direct experience of the DO empty nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: Yes and that is just the beginning
(11:30 PM) AEN: oic
(11:32 PM) Thusness: I told u there will be a period of desync and practitioner will find it easier to rest in naked awareness
(11:32 PM) Thusness: But he will miss something valuable.
(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) Thusness: not many can escape these phases.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: The video u need to hear a few times.
(11:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:35 PM) Thusness: Compare it with the comments on stage 6.
(11:35 PM) AEN: ok
(11:36 PM) Thusness: Know that insight must arise what 'feeling'
(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: What is most important in video 2?
(11:38 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: What emptiness?
(11:39 PM) Thusness: Which phrase?
(11:42 PM) AEN: many phrases :P
(11:43 PM) Thusness: Like?
(11:46 PM) Thusness: Don't paste whatever I told in the forum.
(11:46 PM) AEN: ok
(11:46 PM) AEN: i cant remember wat phrase liao
(11:49 PM) Thusness: Within a short video, there are some very important advices that only true practitioner that has intuitive insight
(11:50 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:50 PM) Thusness: Into emptiness and non-dual insight know
(11:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:12 PM) Thusness: what is the url for the buddhachat regarding ur conversation with Element?
(2:13 PM) AEN:
(2:13 PM) AEN: havent posted since.. no time
(2:13 PM) Thusness: haha...ic. :)
(2:13 PM) Thusness: don't think of longchen non-conceptuality first.
(2:14 PM) Thusness: u should focus on the deepening ur clarity of advaita non-duality to buddhist form of non-duality aka anatta
(2:14 PM) Thusness: then emptiness
(2:15 PM) Thusness: then experience this until the entire teaching of Buddha becomes so clear to u.
(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness: longchen's phase is also the result after understanding Emptiness
(2:16 PM) Thusness: and that understanding of Emptiness is aligning with his non-dual experiences
(2:16 PM) Thusness: therefore he is into right understanding of stage 6.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: but stage 6 is the right 'view' of non-duality and it has to burn the bonds of the senses first.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: then into non-registration of impressions.
(2:17 PM) Thusness: it is not suitable for u.
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:18 PM) Thusness: because his non-dual experiences have stabilized, the understanding of emptiness helps in articulating all his non-dual experiences
(2:18 PM) Thusness: that is the arising of non-dual insight
(2:19 PM) Thusness: later it will become so clear as moment to moment of experience and the subtle 'bond' of the 6 senses gradually dissolve
(2:19 PM) Thusness: into one DO experience.
(2:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:20 PM) Thusness: so for you, u should first understand with clarity and know the various subtle stages and clarity of the differences.
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Even after aligning non-dual experience and emptiness view, the dissolving of the bond on each sense organ differs.
(2:22 PM) Thusness: a practitioner starts to walk out of meditation and find it easier to get authenticated in activities
(2:22 PM) Thusness: in opening eyes
(2:22 PM) Thusness: he walks and feel as if as the ground reality
(2:23 PM) Thusness: but when he/she returns to sitting quietly in meditation, that non-dual experience is gone.
(2:23 PM) Thusness: or is not that obvious
(2:23 PM) Thusness: that is what i meant by the subtle bond...
(2:23 PM) AEN: why when sitting the experience is gone
(2:37 PM) Thusness: Actually it is because we become more aware of the 'center'
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that is the 'center' is still there
(2:37 PM) Thusness: that 'center' becomes more obvious when we sit.
(2:38 PM) Thusness: that tendency becomes more obvious.
(2:38 PM) AEN: ooh no wonder u said
(2:38 PM) AEN:

1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. ( I AM )     

     Mirror bright is experienced but distorted.  Dualistic and Inherent seeing.

2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.

    Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing.  (Beginning of non-dual insight)

3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)

   Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
(2:38 PM) AEN: btw the center is just a bond?
(2:38 PM) Thusness: just but the 'bond' is still strong
(2:39 PM) Thusness: there is some points u have to take note.
(2:39 PM) Thusness: a person after stabilizing non-dual experience and understanding emptiness
(2:39 PM) Thusness: is different from one that is not.
(2:40 PM) Thusness: that is, have no fear of establishing firm view on Emptiness especially for a non-dual experiencer
(2:40 PM) Thusness: because it becomes more of a medicine for the deeply held propensity
(2:41 PM) Thusness: the understanding will dissolve into non-conceptual experience of non-dual presence.
(2:42 PM) Thusness: the reason why non-dual experience become more difficult to maintain when not in activity is because Emptiness view has not replaced the deeply held dualistic/inherent view
(2:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:43 PM) Thusness: without the right view, a non-dual practitioner will still struggle unknowingly
(2:43 PM) Thusness: and naked awareness and non-conceptuality can at this phase becomes an escape
(2:43 PM) Thusness: so it depends which level a practitioner is in.
(2:44 PM) Thusness: once the view is firmly established, it serves as an antidote, when sitting, touch, taste, sound are emptiness and operate like DO.
(2:45 PM) Thusness: means first is the 5 aggregates, then 18 Dhatus then mere DO
(2:45 PM) Thusness: all are non-dual experience but the depth differs
(2:45 PM) Thusness: i told u about the 5 aggregates are already non-dual insight and experience right?
(2:46 PM) Thusness: then the extra layer of mental formation begin to subside, it stops registering imprints
(2:46 PM) Thusness: or begin to register less
(2:46 PM) Thusness: transforming to 18 dhatus without the mental formation
(2:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:47 PM) Thusness: but the previous tendency is still strong
(2:48 PM) Thusness: so sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, mind still act with the tendency
(2:49 PM) Thusness: now at this stage, one can rest in naked awareness or firmly establish the view of emptiness
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it will dissolve the six senses into one DO, empty nature
(2:49 PM) Thusness: just this is that is
(2:49 PM) Thusness: no eyes, ears...
(2:49 PM) Thusness: it is anchored at the deep most level
(2:50 PM) Thusness: practitioner will know it when sitting and opening eyes and all activities is becoming non-dual
(2:50 PM) Thusness: the sense of self almost dissolve
(2:50 PM) Thusness: then experiences become non dual and non local
(2:50 PM) Thusness: that is stage 6.
(2:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:51 PM) AEN: what does non local feel like
(2:51 PM) Thusness: it is just a 'bond' that there is locality
(2:51 PM) Thusness: that consciousness is at some place
(2:52 PM) Thusness: it is a clear experience of non-movement and all pervadingness
(2:52 PM) Thusness: yet ceaseless manifestation
(2:52 PM) AEN: the master talked of a story of su dong po went to fo yin chan shi and said something jokingly like why sit on this chair, no good or what.. then the zen master ask him all the 4 greats and 5 skandhas are empty, now tell me where are u sitting?
(2:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:53 PM) Thusness: what is no movement?
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is arising and ceasing but there is no movement
(2:53 PM) Thusness: this is due to empty nature of our non-dual luminosity
(2:53 PM) Thusness: there is no from point A to point B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is A, B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: there is only movement when there is a from A to B
(2:54 PM) Thusness: but when the center is gone, non-dual experience align with Emptiness nature, this becomes clear
(2:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:55 PM) Thusness: after stabilizing stage 6 is the lou jing tong (from internet: 6. Asavakkaya - Supramundane knowledge or power relating to the destruction of asavas and the recognition of the Four Noble Truths)
(2:56 PM) Thusness: each dissolving of each organ becomes a tong (siddhi)
(2:56 PM) AEN: oic why
(2:56 PM) Thusness: because it becomes non local and non dual
(2:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that prevents it is gone
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' that limits and obstructs is gone
(2:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness: but 'bond' is gone is mostly not obvious
(2:57 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' is very subtle
(2:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:58 PM) Thusness: so fearlessly open up
(2:58 PM) Thusness: let go of everything
(2:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:59 PM) AEN: sometimes v hard to let go leh, haha
(3:00 PM) Thusness: that is because u have not oriented urself totally with Emptiness nature
(3:00 PM) Thusness: this is very important
(3:00 PM) Thusness: but only after non-dual experience one can realise the importance
(3:00 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness: u watch the video of the Master Yuan Yin
(3:01 PM) AEN: ya?
(3:01 PM) Thusness: u cannot grasp the essence?
(3:01 PM) AEN: need to watch again haha
(3:01 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:03 PM) AEN: another day maybe.. studying for exams.. and my mind today not so gd, a bit depressed over certain things.. heh
(3:03 PM) Thusness: work hard
(3:03 PM) Thusness: :)
(3:04 PM) AEN: ok thanks

 Sent someone:


(9:47 PM) AEN: btw a.h.almaas said

(9:47 PM) AEN:

The level of experience shifts now that there is enough stillness for me to see more clearly. I become aware of this observer in me who is paying attention. I cannot pay attention without somebody paying attention to something. First I think this is ordinary and okay. I learn, however, that this observer is not really needed. The need for an observer is the need for ego to have a center, to make itself into a center of experience. So the observer is really none other than ego, or part of ego. I start seeing that awareness cannot develop more if it is centered. A center of awareness, an observer, always limits awareness, for it is always aware through a certain perspective, a certain point of view, from a certain direction. This somehow has a cramping effect on me. I become more tense instead of relaxed. An observer means there is tension in my awareness, it s not open and free. So I turn my awareness backward and look at the observer. It jumps around, and awareness keeps following it. But awareness never finds any substantial reality to this observer. Regardless of how much I look

(9:47 PM) AEN: Regardless of how much I look there is really no observer. Sometimes it feels that it is only a thought, or an idea, or a place in my body, or a belief in its existence, but never a consistent identity. Not finding this observer makes it less real. The center of awareness relaxes its tense grip on my awareness. The ego-center, or the observer in this case, relaxes, spreads thinner, and slowly dissolves into the stillness. There is no more need for an observer.

Only stillness is left fresh, clear, crisp and empty. Thoughts pass through it. Emotions pass through it. Experiences pass through it. But the stillness stays immaculate, just as the clear sky stays untouched as the clouds pass through it.

The winds blow

The rivers flow

The fires gnaw

But stillness is still still.

(9:47 PM) AEN: this is stage 5?

(9:49 PM) Thusness: not yet

(9:49 PM) Thusness: :)

(9:49 PM) Thusness: near to it.

(9:49 PM) AEN: oic

(9:49 PM) Thusness: time to go into non-dual.

(9:49 PM) AEN: stage 4?

(9:49 PM) AEN: oic

(9:49 PM) Thusness: it is good that he reads the hi everyone thread.

(9:49 PM) AEN: huh??

(9:49 PM) AEN: a.h.almaas? LOL

(9:49 PM) Thusness: who is he?

(9:49 PM) AEN: a.h.almaas wrote it

(9:50 PM) AEN: u thought is who? lol

(9:50 PM) AEN:

(9:50 PM) AEN: last time u show us one

(9:50 PM) Thusness: ehehe i don't know who is a.halmaas

(9:50 PM) Thusness: lol

(9:50 PM) AEN: u sure anot?

(9:50 PM) AEN: last time u show us this article.. hehe

(9:50 PM) Thusness: oh...

(9:50 PM) Thusness: hahaha

(9:50 PM) Thusness: yeah...but still not there yet

(9:50 PM) Thusness: i did say it is very buddhist like but not there yet

(9:50 PM) Thusness: lol

(9:51 PM) AEN: haha icic

(9:51 PM) AEN: stage 4 isit

(9:51 PM) Thusness: can say so lah

(9:51 PM) AEN: icic

(9:51 PM) Thusness: not yet stage 5


(Note: ah almaas seems to have realised anatman and total exertion in recent years and his new videos and books seem quite well written)

Imo the above by almaas back in 70s is just impersonality, not nondual or anatta

I said the same things in my I AM phase

So not everyone that said no observer is experiencing nondual, most often its not

I told XX months ago: 


真正的无我,觉就像风和吹,知和所知也只是别名,只有一切的动态展现在知而并无知者,dynamic process rolls and knows without knower


The translation of the given Chinese text is:

"When I was in my true self (I AM stage), I also mentioned that there's observation without an observer. This means there's no 'small self' observing, but there's the 'greater self' or the 'cosmic entity' that perceives. I later realized this isn't the case either. So I think naimin perceives 'observation without an observer' as 'no small self observing, but there's the greater self/cosmic substratum that is the substance of awareness which is perceiving.'

The real selflessness, awareness is like the wind and the blowing, knowing and the known are just different names (conventional designations without real referents), only the dynamic display that is knowing but without a knower, dynamic process rolls and knows without knower."

Note: The translation aims to capture the philosophical depth of the original text, but there may be nuances in interpretation.


Also see:


Saugat Mainali
Description matches with what is happening to me since 2 days. I guess i am in stage 4 as well.
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