Conversation in May 2007

(8:19 PM) Thusness: tok about da zhi mu fa...

(8:19 PM) Thusness: what is it?

(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm... i add truthz over can? hehehe

(8:21 PM) Thusness: okie

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama has been added to the conversation.

(8:21 PM) AEN: hi truth

(8:21 PM) AEN: hehe

(8:21 PM) Thusness: hi.

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama: hello

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama:

(8:21 PM) ??? Sama: i dunno how to explain da zhi mu fa

(8:22 PM) AEN: wah lao u dunnu i also dunno

(8:22 PM) AEN: hahahaha

(8:22 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:22 PM) ??? Sama: hahaa

(8:23 PM) Thusness: this name of this practice is given by?

(8:23 PM) ??? Sama: Master (Ven Shen Kai)

(8:23 PM) AEN: da zhi mu fa verse is something like 'qian nian yi guo (the past thought has gone), hou nian bu qi (the future thought does not arise), zhong jian yuan zhan kai lai wu liang wu bian (in the middle extend openly into limitless, boundless infinity)'... its like transcending thought and sustaining the state of presence....

(8:24 PM) ??? Sama: expanding the gap betw 2 thots

(8:25 PM) Thusness: the name is given by?

(8:25 PM) AEN: in the v beginning he never teach much, he only gave these four verses for his students to 'can1' (like koan)... but now teacher chen giving more details talks

(8:25 PM) AEN: orh

(8:25 PM) ??? Sama: master

(8:25 PM) AEN: i tink master shen kai..

(8:25 PM) ??? Sama: master sheng kai

(8:25 PM) AEN: i tink the word derives from prajna, which master shen kai also say is 'mother of wisdom'

(8:25 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:26 PM) Thusness: da zhi mu fa

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why da

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why zhi

(8:26 PM) Thusness: why mu

(8:26 PM) Thusness: ?

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mu is mom

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mother

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: mu being the prajna

(8:26 PM) Thusness: yeah...

(8:26 PM) Thusness: but why da zhi mu?

(8:26 PM) ??? Sama: wisdom flowing out of this mu

(8:27 PM) Thusness: first ur master shen kai has some thought before he came out this title.

(8:27 PM) Thusness: Da means?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: big

(8:28 PM) Thusness: what is he thinking when he said Da?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: hehe

(8:28 PM) AEN: without boundary?

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: hmm

(8:28 PM) ??? Sama: great wisdom...

(8:28 PM) Thusness: how great?

(8:29 PM) ??? Sama: y u ask how great?

(8:29 PM) AEN: hmm boundless?

(8:30 PM) Thusness: u must know...coz u do not know the thoughts of ur master.

(8:30 PM) ??? Sama: i oso think it just means boundless lor

(8:31 PM) Thusness: if your master never put thoughts in the name of the title, then one is not being serious in ones teaching.

(8:32 PM) Thusness: a serious practitioner will always want to put all and everything into as short sentence as possible.

(8:32 PM) Thusness: the lesser the better.

(8:32 PM) AEN: oic.. how come

(8:32 PM) Thusness: until none.

(8:32 PM) AEN: icic

(8:32 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(8:32 PM) Thusness: da is not big.

(8:32 PM) ??? Sama: then wot does this great imply?

(8:34 PM) Thusness: means great but this great like what AEN said is without boundary

(8:34 PM) Thusness: means he does not know how great or big

(8:34 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:34 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:35 PM) Thusness: but in his mind, he expressed it as da...without limit, or small without size.

(8:35 PM) Thusness: zhi is wisdom...

(8:35 PM) Thusness: this wisdom is without limit, it is not ordinary form of wisdom.

(8:36 PM) Thusness: and why mother?

(8:36 PM) ??? Sama: source?

(8:37 PM) AEN: mother bcos it arises wisdom?

(8:37 PM) Thusness: what ur master is trying to imply is the way, the path, the technique that gives birth to the great wisdom without limit.

(8:37 PM) Thusness: he wanted to convey this technique to all his followers.

(8:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:38 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:38 PM) Thusness: there are so many paths, so many techniques, so many ways

(8:38 PM) AEN: hmm but from wat i read master shen kai always say all dharmas eventually come to 'da zhi mu'.. something like tat

(8:38 PM) Thusness: some say this, some say that....but what ur master think is this is the way that can give birth to this wisdom.

(8:39 PM) AEN: icic

(8:39 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:39 PM) Thusness: so what is the way that can give birth to this wisdom?

(8:40 PM) Thusness: the past thought is gone, the future thought hasn't arise, right now....expand the gap limitless wide...

(8:40 PM) Thusness: this is the way, the path towards the birth of wisdom.

(8:40 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:40 PM) ??? Sama: ok..

(8:41 PM) Thusness: just this way, this simple way will give rise to wisdom.

(8:41 PM) Thusness: that is nakedness of awareness

(8:41 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:41 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:42 PM) Thusness: when ur master thought of the name, I think he put much effort into it.

(8:43 PM) Thusness: but many takes it as a name and practice as what it is...trying to visualize what will happen

(8:43 PM) Thusness: and what is it about...

(8:43 PM) Thusness: and to see what...

(8:43 PM) Thusness: so what there is nakedness, what is seen?

(8:44 PM) AEN: awareness?

(8:44 PM) Thusness: what awareness?

(8:44 PM) Thusness: or what is awareness?

(8:45 PM) AEN: erm.. like our buddha nature? without limits and boundaries

(8:45 PM) Thusness: that is definition

(8:45 PM) AEN: icic

(8:45 PM) Thusness: what is seen?

(8:45 PM) ??? Sama: what is?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: and what is, what is?

(8:46 PM) AEN: but many takes it as a name and practice as what it is...trying to visualize what will happen --> yea lzls say some ppl practise visualising expanding to include the house, then the town, then Singapore, then Malaysia, etc.. lol. then she say that is not 'boundless'

(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:46 PM) AEN: clarity?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: no no...

(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is seen when previous thought is gone, new thought hasn't arise, right there...what is it?

(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is what is?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: i have said so many times....

(8:47 PM) AEN: everything? lol

(8:47 PM) Thusness: and what is everything?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: now?

(8:47 PM) AEN: means every seeing, hearing, etc?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: what is it now?

(8:47 PM) Thusness: don't define...

(8:48 PM) AEN: hmm

(8:48 PM) Thusness: hmm...ur head!

(8:48 PM) AEN: lol

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the words that form on the screen

(8:48 PM) ??? Sama: dun define how to write

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the keyboard..

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the sound of the basket balls

(8:48 PM) AEN: icic

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the air

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the breathe

(8:48 PM) Thusness: the everything...

(8:49 PM) ??? Sama: is it like wot u say, the fabric, texture of reality

(8:49 PM) Thusness: because the mind that is bound cannot know the essence of all these...he/she doesn't know the instantaneous moment of reality.

(8:49 PM) Thusness: yes...then entirety of the single flash....the fabric and texture of reality...

(8:49 PM) AEN: icic.. yea.. master said something like if anapanasati is awareness of breathing, da zhi mu is 'whole awareness'

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the very wisdom right now...

(8:50 PM) AEN: oic

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the limitless wisdom that is boundless

(8:50 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(8:50 PM) Thusness: that words that form on the screen is already the wisdom.

(8:50 PM) Thusness: this is the essence and that is all.

(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:51 PM) Thusness: when u practice, enter with this understanding and heart.

(8:51 PM) ??? Sama: is there a phrase call 'guan ru shi'?

(8:51 PM) Thusness: otherwise not a single thing is known.

(8:51 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:51 PM) Thusness: what is...

(8:51 PM) AEN: icic

(8:52 PM) ??? Sama: so is da zhi mu fa is = guan ru shi?

(8:52 PM) Thusness: guan ru shi means?

(8:53 PM) ??? Sama: touching n feeling the texture, taste, smell, hear...

(8:54 PM) Thusness: ur master wants u to know that the very moment of luminosity in nakedness is the very wisdom itself.

(8:54 PM) Thusness: whatever arises at the moment of nakedness is the very wisdom. :)

(8:54 PM) Thusness: anything besides that is not what he wants u to know.

(8:55 PM) ??? Sama: does it mean that our hearing 'ting jue (jue = awareness)' or sight 'shi jue', etc r already the awareness?

(8:55 PM) Thusness: and the depth of experience is not in words. :)

(8:55 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:55 PM) AEN: oic

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: so basically i just guan wotever my senses jue (awareness)... n as it is.. that is reality already?

(8:56 PM) Thusness: yes. :)

(8:56 PM) Thusness: the five aggregate is buddha nature.

(8:56 PM) Thusness: but a dualistic mind can't see.

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: wot abt the thots floating ard?

(8:56 PM) ??? Sama: that is oso the reality?

(8:57 PM) Thusness: yes.

(8:57 PM) Thusness: but u must know what is dualistic and what is non-dualistic.

(8:57 PM) Thusness: means there is nothing that is not it.

(8:57 PM) ??? Sama: explain?

(8:57 PM) Thusness: but the inability to see causes pain.

(8:57 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(8:57 PM) Thusness: though everything is it, the mind is unable to know.

(8:58 PM) AEN: truthz: like teacher chen said about poking someone... the pain sensation is just the awareness, but later when asked he said "I was in pain", tats dualistic thought

(8:58 PM) ??? Sama: rite.. n the thot that it is pain is oso it

(8:58 PM) AEN: yes

(8:58 PM) Thusness: but the mind that completely puts down the past thoughts, and free itself from future thoughts, resting upon nothing and not even now sees clarity.

(8:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:59 PM) Thusness: this is the path...it is the way towards liberation.

(8:59 PM) Thusness: anything besides that is extra...

(9:00 PM) AEN: oic

(9:00 PM) Thusness: when we feel the incredible realness, the tremendous clarity, experience the boundlessness of this instantaneous moment, then it is clear.

(9:00 PM) Thusness: there is no need to define or ask any thing.

(9:01 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:01 PM) ??? Sama: ok

(9:01 PM) Thusness: so AEN this saturday...listen with this basic understanding.

(9:01 PM) AEN: icic.. ok

(9:01 PM) Thusness: and enter the explanation. :)

(9:02 PM) Thusness: it will be clearer for u. :)

(9:02 PM) AEN: oic.. ok

(9:02 PM) ??? Sama: wot time start?

(9:02 PM) ??? Sama: i oso go hehe...

(9:02 PM) AEN: lol

(9:02 PM) AEN: 7.30 p.m

(9:02 PM) Thusness: :)

(9:02 PM) AEN: playing da zhi mu fa

(9:03 PM) ??? Sama: john, is da zhi mu fa same thing as wot Padmasambhava talk of seeing with naked awareness?

(9:03 PM) ??? Sama: ya i guess as much

(9:03 PM) Thusness: there are many stages to it...the entrance until the entire experience...

(9:04 PM) Thusness: the way towards opening the gate towards great wisdom is this way.

(9:04 PM) Thusness: like insight meditation

(9:04 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:04 PM) Thusness: but the meaning of it...u must know at least in a conventional sense.

(9:05 PM) Thusness: then ur master will not waste his effort naming this technique....ehehehehe

(9:05 PM) AEN: oic.. haha

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: hehe

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: he wont jump from his grave liao

(9:05 PM) ??? Sama: since he's already schooling

(9:06 PM) Thusness: lol

(9:06 PM) AEN: lol

(9:06 PM) Thusness: ang mo now...

(9:06 PM) AEN: half ang mo half chinese

(9:06 PM) ??? Sama: best of both worlds

(9:06 PM) AEN: haha

(9:06 PM) ??? Sama: black hair?

(9:07 PM) ??? Sama: ask ur dad ship him a PS3 lah, AEN

(9:07 PM) AEN: hahahah

(9:08 PM) Thusness: :)

(9:10 PM) ??? Sama: master said our 6 senses r like electric appliances... n awareness is the electricity

(9:11 PM) AEN: oic.. where?

(9:11 PM) ??? Sama: i forgot..

(9:11 PM) AEN: icic

(9:11 PM) ??? Sama: jue is like the dian ma

(9:12 PM) ??? Sama: then dian flow thru the yan jue, er jue,etc

(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:13 PM) Thusness: it is just an illustration.

(9:13 PM) ??? Sama: ya

(9:14 PM) Thusness: when we tok about buddha teachings, the essence should be so:

(9:14 PM) Thusness: the electricity should not be taken as an entity.

(9:14 PM) Thusness: the organs are part of the conditions for manifestations

(9:15 PM) AEN: icic

(9:15 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:15 PM) Thusness: when condition arises, it is the luminosity of the appearances that u must know

(9:15 PM) Thusness: u never see or know what awareness is unless through conditions where appearances manifest

(9:16 PM) ??? Sama: luminosity does it mean wot u see actually glows?

(9:16 PM) Thusness: that vividness of appearance is awareness in real time and life.

(9:16 PM) AEN: ya i tink vividness is the rite word

(9:16 PM) Thusness: not what i see glows, it is the seeing is the object is the awareness

(9:17 PM) AEN: like 'being' the seeing

(9:17 PM) ??? Sama: ic

(9:18 PM) AEN: mindfulness has a vivid quality esp when the sense of duality decreases or disappears... then u 'become' the trees, the flowers, etc

(9:19 PM) ??? Sama: ic