Awakening to Reality

Don't Bombard with our conversations and Don't Stereotype

Soh, I seriously think u should not keep bombarding ppl with our conversations. Don't get over excited with your anatta insights and experiences. Don't become an anatta bot stereotyping and categorizing ppl into the 7 phases of insights. I know u r extremely sincere and compassionate, but it is unhelpful and unskillful in my opinion.

I am not a teacher, neither r u. If u want to teach and guide, u should seriously consider taking up your teacher's offer and start with Ren Cheng as she has been looking for successor since I know u otherwise it is more appropriate to lead those sincere practitioners to right teachers. Unlike us, those teachers r dedicated full-time; have right settings and environment; have a community of sincere practitioners that mutually support each other; have all the right lineages; and have access to all the frontier knowledge that are passed down from generation to generation from their lineage masters. Y not just do that?

As for those layman practitioners that for some reasons still prefer to go on their own asking for some general guides post anatta insights, I think they can focus on the 5 following points:

1. Extend the insight of anatta, the de-reification process to all events and phenomena. MMK comes handy here. It will help one investigate most of the subtle assumptions we held to be "true" in a hypnotic way.

2. Open up our body and go deeply into body-awareness. This is critical imo. Less intellectual activities and more body-awareness. Post anatta and along the path, due to the de-construction process, the energy released from unconscious holding of our mental constructs can be quite overwhelming. It may also be due to other reasons, for example, attachment to non-dual experiences and as a result it will cause discomfort to both our mind and body.

3. So opening up our body is key at this phase. The imbalance can be released by massage, non-inflammatory diet, qi gong, tai chi movements, yoga or any other body awareness exercises. Just open up our body and bring awareness to our body to complement the anatta insight and less intellectual activities.

4. If after that, the practitioner can intuit directly the relationship between mind, prana and body and wish to pursue his knowledge further on how the energy system works, they can then look for experienced teachers in this space to guide them. U r not into this, hence, do not advise ppl on what u r unsure and have no experience.

5. Lastly, bring the insight of anatta into our daily activities, meet conditions and engage.

I sincerely hope u can make some changes to your approach towards those that seek your advices. Do put serious thought on it. Happy journey!

Comments by Soh:

Check this out:

14) Compilation of Post Anatta Advise

15) Finding An Awakened Spiritual Teacher and Mentor

Special Post Listing Teachers That We Trust

Also read this as it offers much more elaboration on point number 1: Anatta and Post-Anatta, MMK, etc

Labels: John Tan 1 comments | |

I AM vs Anatta vs Twofold Emptiness

Soh Wei Yu

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Shared with someone who realised anatta and asked me what I mean by I AM, its difference with anatta, and also about what follows anatta. (He himself has went through I AM to non dual to anatta, so it is not that he is not aware of these distinctions but he is just clarifying my terminologies)

Soh wrote:

"By the I AM realization I don't mean seeing through the illusion of subject-action-object duality. However the I AM actualization itself is nondual.

In that moment of realization, through asking 'Who am I?' one redirects attention and traces back the radiance into the Source. Which is an absolute certainty of Existence, or Beingness. In that oceanic all pervading Presence, there is no subject-object duality, there is no knower-knowing-known... it is not a knower knowing existence, there's just Existence, the knower is the knowingness is the beingness, there is only pure self-knowing Presence-Awareness itself. Awareness aware of itself is awareness being itself. No duality.

But due to uninvestigated ignorance and a dualistic paradigm, when one compares that taste of Mind to other sense doors and manifestations, lets say a conceptual thought pops up the next moment, then one subtly recalls the previous moment of the non-dual authentication of pure Beingness, that ignorant framework then structures and compares both experiences in terms of subject and object. In other words, it treats the previous non-dual authentication of pure Beingness as 'Ultimate Subject', and the subsequent conceptual or sensory phenomena as 'objects passing by within the background of the Ultimate Subject' and the background appears to be an infinite void container or like a canvas for the painting to appear in. Such a structure is based on ignorance. It is also not an accurate representation of the actual authentication of I AMness, which is a non-dual foreground 'happening'.

Now, when we realise anatta, the subject-action-object, seer-seeing-seen, hearer-hearing-heard, doer-doing-deed structure and framework and paradigm is seen through. So when seeing scenery, seeing is just the sceneries is just colors without seer, when hearing sound, just sounds, so on and so forth... no agent, not even a seeing besides colors and so on for all other senses.

Does this mean we then deny the I AM? We do not deny the Pure Beingness because as we have seen, it is just another non-dual moment of authenticating Mind, it is a moment or manifestation of Mind as a foreground manifestation. It is only misinterpreted to mean a hidden ultimate background. There is as you said, nothing hidden at all.

After anatta, the equal luminous intensity of Mind is not only found in the Mind door, but in all other manifestations, including a conceptual thought, including all the five senses, the colors, sights, sounds, taste, touch, smells, tactile sensations, all vividly reveals as Presencing effortlessly and with vivid intensity. Nothing is denied. Only the view is refined and this refining of view leads to the effortless and full blown and non-referential taste of Mind in No-Mind in all encounters and manifestations. Before maturing this insight, one cannot help but be efforting and referencing back to a source. Anatta is the key and gateway to effortless and full instant presence.

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

So when I said I AM realization is important it is not the same as anatta realization, but it is still important because it is the first time you have the direct realization and taste of the non-dual luminous Presence, except it is initially restricted to the Mind door. But it is the first time you have this realisation and taste, then the subsequent progress from there is the unfolding of this taste and expanding of it to everything and further investigating, refining the view with direct realisation into the nature of Presence and its relationship with the phenomenal world. That is where nondual anatta comes in. Then from there one further matures into total exertion and twofold emptiness.

Without the I AM realization, one's understanding of spirituality is mostly conceptual, dry and barren. Even if one has peak experiences. It is ok to have I AM realization and still hold a dualistic view at first, but with the right pointers and practice one moves into the direction of anatta and emptiness which you understand is important and crucial for liberation. With the right pointers, one can shortcut the path to anatta and emptiness with the I AM realization first, as John Tan said more than a decade ago, which I agree.

Soh Wei YuAdmin

After anatta realisation, further investigation into emptiness teachings and prajnaparamita and mmk reveals that the empty nature of self equally applies to the empty nature of all phenomena, revealing that the nature of all appearances to be its non arising, its lack of coming and going, arising, abiding and ceasing, which leaves appearances equivalent to magical illusions like a rainbow or phantom or mirage. As I explained in 2016,

[17/1/16, 3:30:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: when we scroll text on facebook, people with erroneous essence view think that the text is actually going up and down, or as if the text below is hidden below and we have to scroll down and 'get there'. but when we realize D.O. and non-arising we don't see phenomena arising, abiding, ceasing, going to or coming from... so scrolling of text is merely appearing without movement, abiding no where and going no where, like a magical illusion.

the same for all other phenomena 'in the universe'

[17/1/16, 9:33:31 PM] John Tan: Quite good. Knowing that we must also know about functionality.

[17/1/16, 9:35:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. can u give an example

[17/1/16, 9:41:35 PM] John Tan: When u see texts scrolling from page 1 to page 2, paging serves the function of breaking down the "texts" into the window or screen frame to allow us the possibility of seeing the whole texts.

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

This is the 'non inherent existence' applied at a deeper and wider scope

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

Otherwise one can get stuck with AF (actual freedom) level of realisation, where the self/Self is unreal and deconstructed and dissolved, but the physical world is extremely real and truly existing.

After twofold emptiness, appearances are still vividly self-luminous, but empty and not truly existent. The Dzogchen term is clearly apparent non-existents.

Kyle Dixon wrote 8 months ago:

"It means the appearance and the knowing of the appearance are the same. However “appearances are mind” is primarily a sarma school view. In Dzogchen mennagde it is not said that appearances are mind but rather that appearances are med par gsal snang, which means “non-existent clear appearances” or “clearly apparent non-existents.”"

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Adam Holt

Came to mind, related to longde Dzogchen practice:

Soh Wei Yu

More on the text scrolling analogy:

[29/3/16, 12:15:19 AM] John Tan: First u must know there r many unexamined assumptions

[29/3/16, 12:16:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What assumptions?

[29/3/16, 12:19:34 AM] John Tan: There can only arising, duration and cessation when an "essence" can b found.

[29/3/16, 12:20:23 AM] John Tan: But u may think u hv gone through thorough enough to know abt essencelessness

[29/3/16, 12:21:57 AM] John Tan: Saying whatever originates in dependence does not originate, abide and cease does not mean u hv understood anything.

[29/3/16, 12:22:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[29/3/16, 12:24:07 AM] John Tan: The teaching starts with a sincere heart in looking for an essence but can't b found under ultimate analysis though in appearance, phenomena appear solid.

[29/3/16, 12:27:44 AM] John Tan: The first actual taste of the profound teaching of essencelessness is from the insight of anatta. However the taste is far from mature realisation of the meaning of non-arising and empty nature of phenomena.

[29/3/16, 12:30:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[29/3/16, 12:30:58 AM] John Tan: So if u do not see essencelessness deep enough, u won't b able to "feel" essencelessness

[29/3/16, 12:32:45 AM] John Tan: There when someone says a bell is ringing, it only sounds logical conventionally, not ultimately.

[29/3/16, 12:43:41 AM] John Tan: For in ultimate sense, neither bell nor sound can b found when sought.

[29/3/16, 12:43:56 AM] John Tan: And what does that mean?

[29/3/16, 12:44:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Bell is labelled based on the sound, the Colours, the function

[29/3/16, 12:44:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No bell can be found

[29/3/16, 12:45:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Sound is labelled in dependence on hearing, hitting, etc

[29/3/16, 12:46:36 AM] John Tan: Like the example u gave once, these texts I m typing scrolls up and down seem to appear and disappear. The texts seem to hide below window and when scrolled upward appears to re-surface from below the window.

[29/3/16, 12:47:22 AM] John Tan: But in ultimate sense, there is no text hidden below the chat window.

[29/3/16, 12:48:18 AM] John Tan: But that is in ultimate sense, not conventional sense.

[29/3/16, 12:49:12 AM] John Tan: So in ultimate sense, there is nothing truly arise, abide and cease.

[29/3/16, 12:49:33 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[29/3/16, 12:58:15 AM] John Tan: So bringing this into actual taste (as first person), what is this telling u? In anatta, what is it telling u and how it feels like?

[29/3/16, 3:40:51 AM] Soh Wei Yu: In Anatta one is freed from the ghostly image of inherent existence and directly taste the appearance.. Likewise for non arising one taste the nature of appearance as empty clarity free from Essence, coming, going

[29/3/16, 3:41:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta tells you there is no ghost or inherent existence to awareness besides seen, heard, smell

[29/3/16, 7:59:02 AM] John Tan: U no need to work?

[29/3/16, 7:59:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Need to work

[29/3/16, 7:59:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Woke up in the middle of the night lol

[29/3/16, 7:59:45 AM] John Tan: Lol

[29/3/16, 8:02:21 AM] John Tan: Free from the inherent existence of self...not free from inherent existence

[29/3/16, 8:14:35 AM] John Tan: Yes allowing one to directly taste the transience and realize these transience (color, sound, thoughts, sensations, scent) that we shunt away is the very suchness. So don't look elsewhere for suchness.

Sound, sensations, colors, form, scent...all these transience phenomena...they r like the texts being scrolled up and down, appears to come and go...but in ultimate sense, understand that they do not truly arise, abide and cease. That is the non-arising and empty nature of suchness.

It is fully understanding these evanescence appearances without having the need to resort back to a linking essence that is difficult.

[29/3/16, 8:15:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[29/3/16, 8:16:55 AM] John Tan: There is some true existence hearing nature is the problem...for that is precisely the cause of duality.

[29/3/16, 8:17:07 AM] John Tan: And cause of suffering.

[29/3/16, 8:22:44 AM] John Tan: If one needs to establish "sound" to b "here", to b "now" or to have firm establishment any hearing nature separate from sound....that is stressful, not liberating.

[29/3/16, 8:26:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[29/3/16, 8:28:16 AM] John Tan: Freedom comes from directly experiencing the empty and non-arising nature of appearances in real time...not needing an Essence ground is the releasing factor.

[29/3/16, 8:41:11 AM] John Tan: The key issue is most do not know the way of essencelessness. It is directly opposite of "holding...rather it is just full and unreserve opening...complete welcoming

[29/3/16, 8:45:18 AM] John Tan: Even u after conceptually understood...even after initially taste of selflessness and the insight of anatta, there is no release. The karmic tendency of holding on to an essence has infiltrated into every aspect of our thoughts, manifested in our every action, imprinted into every cell.

[29/3/16, 8:46:48 AM] John Tan: The body must b opened up too in addition to just dissolving reified mental constructs.

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Seek or Stop Seeking?

Anisor Marie

Author

James Wolanyk thank you. This resonates and makes a lot of sense to me.

I have heard teachers say that I need to even give up the need and desire for awakening.

Ram Dass says that "enlightment is the egos ultimate disappointment." But I only now understand what that means, in that it dissolves the ego or merges it into awareness.

I used to interpret this as to stop seeking, bc he says "eventually you have to give that up to."

It seems that writing a lot of this out helps me make sense of things. As well as everyone's feedback.

Should I stop seeking the answers? Some teachers say to stop and others say to keep seeking for deeper awakening and eventual full realization.

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    Soh Wei Yu also this seems to come back to teachers, whom all the greats say we need to give up attachments and clinging to things.
    Here in lies my dilemma, me wanting to go deeper and learn more, is this a form of attachment? When RD & Robert Adams etc say "eventually you have to give that up to" does that mean once (IF) I ever become fully realized? Won't it automatically be given up then?
    
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    Soh Wei Yu
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    Anisor Marie It is important to continue and persist with diligence and strive for total liberation. This sounds contradictory to what we hear about the 'effortlessness' of the natural state, but it is not contradictory. Without very deep wisdom there can be no real effortlessness, only contrived state of effortlessness, or an afflicted and delusional state pretending to be "effortlessness". Many teachers are unfortunately not clear about these points, and not clear about what are the conditions for true effortlessness to arise in one's practice.
    Which is why contemplating on the anatta stanzas are important. Because the anatta insight is a key or doorway into effortless instant presence. Even then it does not mean one starts to laze around, it is only the beginning of the path of endless actualization in practice-enlightenment.
    And there is no true letting go without the correct insights either.
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../realization-and...
    "
    "...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "
    ~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)
    "...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."
    ~ Thusness"
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    https://docs.google.com/.../16QGwYIP.../edit...
    William Lam: So, since I think a lot relies on the anatta experience, can you share with us a little bit more about the anatta experience?
    John Tan: the experience, there are two. One of them is… I separate experience from insight. So, why? Because you can have an experience, you can feel spacious, you can feel free, you can feel oceanic. That's an experience. There is no insight, means you can’t clearly see uh, there isn’t, from the beginning there is no self. Seeing through that, that is the insight. Experience means, you experience something, correct? So anatta means that, to me, that time when I realized… I started from presence, means I experienced presence directly. So presence there's a taste, means it is very clear, transparent, vivid, without concept, and all that kind of experience. That experience itself is actually non dual. But post that experience, you just become dualistic.
    William Lam: It's non conceptual.
    John Tan: It’s non conceptual. Yup. Okay. Presence is not conceptual experience, it has to be direct. And you just feel pure sense of existence. Means people ask you, before birth, who are you? You just authenticate the I, that is yourself, directly. So when you first authenticate that I, you are damn happy, of course. When young, that time, wah… I authenticate this I… so you thought that you’re enlightened, but then the journey continues. So this is the first time you taste something that is different. It is… It is before thoughts, there is no thoughts. Your mind is completely still. You feel still, you feel presence, and you know yourself. Before birth it is Me, after birth, it is also Me, 10,000 years it’s still this Me, 10,000 year before, it’s still this Me. So you authenticate that, your mind is just that and authenticate your own true being, so you don't doubt that. In later phase…
    Kenneth Bok: Presence is this I AM?
    John Tan: Presence is the same as I AM. Presence is the same as… of course, other people may disagree, but actually they're referring to the same thing. The same authentication, the same what... even in Zen is still the same.
    But in later phase, I conceive that as just the thought realm. Means, in the six, I always call the six entries and six exits, so there is the sound and there’s all these… During that time, you always say I’m not sound, I’m not the appearance, I AM the Self that is behind all these appearances, alright? So, sounds, sensations, all these come and go, your thoughts come and go, those are not me, correct? This is the ultimate Me. The Self is the ultimate Me. Correct?
    William Lam: So, is that nondual? The I AM stage. It’s non-conceptual, was it nondual?
    John Tan: It’s nonconceptual. Yes, it is nondual. Why is it nondual? At that moment, there is no duality at all, at that moment when you experience the Self, you cannot have duality, because you are authenticated directly as IT, as this pure sense of Being. So, it’s completely I, there’s nothing else, just I. There’s nothing else, just the Self. I think, many of you have experienced this, the I AM. So, you probably will go and visit all the Hinduism, sing song with them, meditate with them, sleep with them, correct? Those are the young days. I meditate with them, hours after hours, meditate, sit with them, eat with them, sing song with them, drum with them. Because this is what they preach, and you find these group of people, all talking about the same language.
    So this experience is not a normal experience, correct? I mean, within the probably 15 years of my life or 17 years of my life, my first... when I was 17, when you first experienced that, wah, what is that? So, it is something different, it is non conceptual, it is non dual, and all these. But it is very difficult to get back the experience. Very, very difficult, unless you're in when you're in meditation, because you reject the relative, the appearances. So, it is, although they may say no, no, it is always with me, because it's Self, correct? But you don't actually get back the authentication, just pure sense of existence, just me, because you reject the rest of that appearances, but you do not know during that time. Only after anatta, then you realize that this, when you when you hear sound without the background, that experience is exactly the same, the taste is exactly the same as the presence. The I AM Presence. So, only after anatta, when the background is gone, then you realize eh, this has the exact same taste as the I AM experience. When you are not hearing, you are just in the vivid appearances, the obvious appearances now, correct. That experience is also the I AM experience. When you are even now feeling your sensation without the sense of self directly. That experience is exactly the same as I AM taste. It is nondual. Then you realize, I call, actually, everything is Mind. Correct? Everything. So, so before that, there is an ultimate Self, a background, and you reject all those transient appearances. After that, that background is gone, you know? And then you are just all these appearances.
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    William Lam: You are the appearance? You are the sound? You are the…
    John Tan: Yes. So, so, that is an experience. That is an experience. So after that, you realize something. What did you realise? You realise all along it is the what, that is obscuring you. So… in a person, for a person that is in I AM experience, the pure presence experience, they will always have a dream. They will say that I hope I can 24 by 7 always in that state, correct? So when I was young, 17. But then after 10 years you are still thinking. Then after 20 years, you say how come I need to always meditate? You always find time to meditate, maybe I don't study also meditate, you give me a cave last time I will just meditate inside.
    So, the the thing that you always dream that you can one day be pure consciousness, just as pure consciousness, live as pure consciousness, but you never get it. And even if you meditate, occasionally probably you can have that oceanic experience. Only when you after anatta, when that self behind is gone, you are not 24 by 7, maybe most of your day, waking state, not so much of 24 by 7, you dream that time still very karmic depending on what you engage, doing business, all these. (John mimics dreaming) How come ah, the business…
    So, so, in normal waking state, you are effortless. Probably that is the, during I AM phase, what you think you are going to achieve, you achieve after the insight of anatta. So you become clear, you are probably in the right path. But there are further insights you have to go through. When you try to penetrate the… one of them is, I feel that I become very physical. I am just narrating, going through my experience. Maybe that time… because you experience the relative, the appearances directly. So everything becomes very physical. So that is how you come to understand the meaning, how concepts actually affect you. Then what exactly is physical? How does the idea of physical come about, correct? That time I still do not know about emptiness, and all these kind of things, to me it is not so important.
    So, I start going into what exactly is physical, what exactly is being physical? Sensation. But why is sensation known as physical, and what is being physical? How did I get the idea of being physical? So, I began to enquire into this thing. That, eh, actually on top of that, there is still further things to deconstruct, that is the meaning… that, just like self, I’m attached to the meaning of self, and you create a construct, it becomes a reification. Same thing, physicality also. So, you deconstruct the concepts surrounding physicality. Correct? So, when you deconstruct that, then I began to realize that all along, we try to understand, even after the exp
    erience of let’s say, anatta and all these… when we analyze, and when we think and try to understand something, we are using existing scientific concepts, logic, common day to day logic and all these to understand something. And it is always excluding consciousness. Even if you experience, you can lead a spiritual path you know, but when you think and analyze something, somehow you always exclude consciousness from the equation of understanding something. Your concept is always very materialistic. We always exclude consciousness from the whole equation.
    
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    Soh Wei Yu
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    "me wanting to go deeper and learn more, is this a form of attachment"
    No it is not, or it need not be. There must be a balance (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../jean-luc-achard-on... )
    The correct books can provide very good pointers in practice and also help one attain deeper insight which are crucial for liberation.
    Session Start: 9 April, 2011
    Thusness: then to have more knowledge
    Soh: I see.. Like last time lzls said not to read books at one pt right
    Thusness: yeah
    Soh: She said last time master would take out a lot of books and start writing essays and then got stopped by zen master dong chu
    Soh: Who said something like which buddha ever attained buddhahood through reading and writing
    Soh: something like that
    Thusness: yeah
    Thusness: but it depends
    Thusness: after anatta it is okie
    Soh: Oic
    Thusness: before that, need a good teacher
    Soh: Ic..
    Thusness: because after anatta, one is able to see what is meant by direct, gapless and pure
    Thusness: and he is on his own to mature this experience
    Thusness: until the next phase comes
    Thusness: all practitioners must experience for himself and not read
    Thusness: like dogen, what expressed is clear and direct
    Thusness: ted expresses the total exertion
    Thusness: and how come it sounds like maha?
    Thusness: when reading the vietman zen master thich naht hanh, how do u know what he express is correct?
    Thusness: i have not read anything...in fact very lil
    Thusness: only one to two stanza
    Thusness: all else is direct experiences
    Thusness: bought many books but din read...ahha
    ...
    Contemplating the two stanzas of anatta and two nondual contemplations can lead to the breakthrough insight of anatta.
    More recently, John Tan has been emphasizing how even after anatta, one should study and learn Madhyamika teachings/MMK for deepening one's wisdom. John Tan, "mmk exposes all the very subtle and hidden cognitives obscurations that we are unable even post anatta insight. So if one is interested in bringing anatta insight to maturity and perfection, mmk is needed."
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    In addition to Walpola Rahula's book which is clear about anatta and dependent origination, another good book for beginner is Steve Hagen's Buddhism Plain and Simple https://www.amazon.com/.../dp/0804851182/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
    These two books can help guide the way towards anatta and are not too difficult to read even for those totally new to Buddhism.
    Likewise Angelo's book is also very good and you should read it
    
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