“Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:08pm UTC+08

Greg Goode Soh, this description according to Advaita would not be something that happens in deep sleep, but in a subtle dream, "I have experienced Clear Light in a dreamless sleep before many times. It was pure presence/beingness and bliss without consciousness of any sort of object (or subject), and no other sensory or mental experiences whatsoever." Note the emphasis on "other .. experiences." So this was itself an experience. According to Advaita, it may seem too uneventful to be a dream, so we like to think of it as deep sleep. Even Ken Wilber has misinterpreted the deep sleep teachings by saying that he had developed a witness that was able to witness deep sleep. But in the Direct Path, deep sleep itself is the witness. It is awareness with no objects whatsoever. So the appearance of clear light, according to those teachings, is sufficient to make it a dream. A helpful one to be sure, but a dream. From the perspective of the Advaita teachings on deep sleep, not even clear light or I AM or any imputation or phenomenon appears, no matter how impressive or subtle. What is instructive about deep sleep is that there is no arising whatsoever, yet awareness ... IS. When we try to look back on deep sleep, (we can't literally look back on it - this is a provisional teaching only), but when we look back at it, we are led to several significant insights: 1. There was no evidence of mind, body or world. 2. Yes I was not absent. That is, I didn't disappear, only to reappear when I woke up. 3. I slept happily. It is taught in the direct path as an alternative to the need to develop nirvikalpa samadhi. Faster and more direct..... 2 minutes ago · Like

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:08pm UTC+08

what do you think about this

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08

to me this is like an inferential realization

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08

lol

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08

and not exactly right since the 'I was not absent' is merely an imputation

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08

I agree with what Greg said.

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08

i wrote back:

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08

To me that is like an inferential understanding. A direct realization that 'Awareness IS' is direct realization... no doubt at all, but pure apprehension of Awareness as the essence of mind... without any inference at all, only a direct non-conceptual certainty. But to see it as changeless Self throughout all states is an imputation and precisely is self-view. It is a 'view' or 'understanding' derived from an inherent view and subtle referencing. As I was telling Jax, I differentiate I AM realization with I AM imputation. I AM imputation is a result of referencing. During my I AM days I also had the view that Awareness is changeless throughout waking, dream and deep sleep. That sort of view is seen through in anatta. As I wrote based on what Thusness wrote back in 2007: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/07/spell-of-karmic-propensities.html ...So when momentum is in action, we cannot help but react with our karmic patterns. If we were to ask, "If you lost your shoe, are you still you?" or "If you lost your hands, do you still exist?". It almost seems certain to say "Yes, of course I am still I." because we always assumed there is a truly existing "Self" experiencing changes. This momentum can continue even after experiences of transcendental Presence, and distorting the experience. Dharma Dan calls this the "fundamental knot of perception"...

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08

In fact you must have deep sleep as I told u

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08

ic.. but isnt that 'I am still there in deep sleep' a result of inference?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08

instead of direct realization?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08

its like saying 'if you lost your shoes are you still u'

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08

i dont see any difference.. that sort of derived understanding

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08

That is because you infer

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08

U are not seeing sleep and waking as one

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08

i mean this: but when we look back at it, we are led to several significant insights: 1. There was no evidence of mind, body or world. 2. Yes I was not absent. That is, I didn't disappear, only to reappear when I woke up. 3. I slept happily.

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08

greg said that

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08

isnt that inference?

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08

It is like causes and conditions and awareness not understood as front and back of the same palm

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:21pm UTC+08

I do not see Deep sleep as the Awareness itself but the gist is quite the same.

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:22pm UTC+08

i dun understand you.. what exactly are you agreeing with greg lol

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:23pm UTC+08

isnt greg saying that by inference you see that "I" remains unchanged throughout sleep?

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:23pm UTC+08

Lets say how do you know you will not die the next moment now?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08

but i do agree that awareness is not a witness so of course it is not a witness of deep sleep... in deep sleep just deep sleep

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08

is this what you mean?

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08

Answer me first?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08

i can't know for sure i wont die next moment

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08

i can only guess

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:25pm UTC+08

How do you know you have to breathe out after you breathe in?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:25pm UTC+08

hmm... this is like a spontaneous reflex..

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:26pm UTC+08

Have you play table tennis before?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08

yea

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08

Good?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08

no not good lol

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08

Lol... Ok...there is knowledge being one with the flow

U can say you infer. Then you just missed the point. It is the knowledge that arises from being the flow

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:30pm UTC+08

ic.. so you mean one can have knowledge with regards to deep sleep like that?

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:30pm UTC+08

So deep sleep and waking state to you is a form of inference but for one that is in the flow...there are an inseparable whole phase

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08

So from the freeness and clarity they understand deep sleep

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08

Greg Goode Soh, what post are you answering here? Deep sleep? "But to see it as changeless Self throughout all states is an imputation and precisely is self-view. " It is not at all like this in Advaita. The states are themselves deconstructed. In direct experience one finds nothing other than awareness. And even that is not found like we find a penny on the floor. Not objectively, but in a mystical combination of knowing and being. Of course anatta is going to differ from this!!!!! No surprise. It differs from anatta too.

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08

oic..

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08

u mean is like from the after effects of sleep?

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:32pm UTC+08

Yes but you are seeing it as an after effect using thought

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:33pm UTC+08

Just like for some ancient tribe life, death and afterlife are one seamless whole...so it means something very different

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:34pm UTC+08

To them it is like walking out to your dad's room

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:35pm UTC+08

But because your mind sees it as something very distinct you see it differently

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:36pm UTC+08

For awareness practice, awareness is maintained throughout. That is the state free of object and that is what it is supposed to b.

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

Awareness with object in the waking state is non-dual and objectless is supposed to be just like deep sleep. Get it?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

ic.. but is what greg said deriving understanding from being one with the flow? i wonder if he's just inferring a changeless self

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

also greg isnt saying awareness has to be maintained

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

in fact he is saying from this understanding, you no longer need to maintain awareness

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

or maintain samadhi or practice awareness in sleep

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

bcos you realize deep sleep is already awareness

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08

Not about maintaining. Anyway nvm...u can get the gist that is enough. If you don't understand even after explaining then it becomes a form of useless argument. Greg is telling you something important in advaita

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:40pm UTC+08

It is the same thing gist if I tell you from the perspective of anatta

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:42pm UTC+08

so you mean what greg is saying is that waking deep sleep is an inseparable whole? as awareness

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:44pm UTC+08

Yes. Just like what is sleep to you from the perspective of anatta and DO?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:45pm UTC+08

an activity.. process/flow..

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:45pm UTC+08

Meaning?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:46pm UTC+08

means like its the experience being exerted with every conditions that led to it. like you said playing table tennis or breathing

John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:49pm UTC+08

Life is the total activity of life. Death is the total activity of death. Sleep is the total activity of sleep. This is the total training and practice. How is one to know he is on the right track in practice?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:52pm UTC+08

total transcendence of self in total activity? How different is it from anatta?

Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:55pm UTC+08

in anatta its just pure sensations.. in total exertion its like you see the whole process activity self-arising seamlessly.. breathing is not just breathing but the whole body and environment etc

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:04am UTC+08

What I am saying is unless you are leaving trace, it is anatta. So life and death, sleep and practice, breathing in and breathing out...all are same practice, same view, same truth, same fruition. Therefore non-dual awareness in objectless state is just as what Greg said...like in deep sleep

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:09am UTC+08

i see..

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:10am UTC+08

Once it becomes an integrated practice then it becomes seamless. Just like if you practice anatta throughout the 3 states it is different...get it. When you do not oscillate between inherent and anatta state, then it is seamless in the 3 states ... Equality

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:13am UTC+08

ic.. hmm now i think greg is saying is that everything is awareness... so there is no need to maintain a state treated as awareness in sleep.. as the sleep itself is nondual awareness

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:13am UTC+08

Yes. Objectless state is just like that...no maintenance. In fact that is how I practice. In the past before I enter into Buddhism. Mind agree with what Greg said about Ken Wilber. And I think we discussed this before...when longchen asked about it...

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:16am UTC+08

mind agree ? isit

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:17am UTC+08

I told both of you not to maintain awareness in deep sleep and treat deep sleep as deepest samadhi...if I am not wrong

oic..

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:18am UTC+08

Becoz Simpo think what Ken Wilber said is true but I told him not to practice that way...

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:18am UTC+08

But forgotten...lol too long

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:19am UTC+08

I think you replied longchen saying that I said that...like in sleeping, sleep! But too long already

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08

searching now :P

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08

Or was it someone else? Lol

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08

jonls right

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:22am UTC+08

I thought it was Simpo? you can't rem?

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:23am UTC+08

Originally posted by JonLS: An innocent mind In the sense of original innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is quiescent (quiet, still, surrendered). This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's true nature. It is no longer making efforts to "know" or "understand" something. Instead, there is resting in one's true nature, in being. This is about letting go of the need to know. And trusting. And just being. True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance. you replied: To find one that can completely surrender and totally be is extremely rare. Not even one in millions. Yet in deep sleep, all has to let go. How can one be denied such a precious state of beingness. For a person that has experienced no-self (non-duality), deep sleep is even more important. It is the completion of a full cycle of non-duality and natural beingness. But this may not be the case for one that clings to the "Eternal Witnessing". There is a very subtle holding in them for maintaining this witnessing subconciously thereby denying them from naturally going into deep sleep. If it reaches a point that presents itself as a problem, it is a signal to the practitioner that it is time to let go and dissolve the holding of the Witness, the center. It will be tough to simply try just "let go" of the center and if this is the case, an insight into our "emptiness nature" may help. Only after going through a full cycle of natural non-duality and beingness in all three states will a practitioner sleep be shorten. I called this the second cycle of non-duality.

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:23am UTC+08

In fact I told you not to practice that way cause you asked me before. I told you I practice trying to maintain awareness in the 3 states before

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08

Yeah not this

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/232880

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08

Sleep cycle shorten due to clarity but deep sleep is a form of samadhi. In fact I told you not to practice that way cause you asked me before. I told you I practice trying to maintain awareness in the 3 states before and face a lot of problems

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:26am UTC+08

Jonls is one but Simpo and you also

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:26am UTC+08

18 Sep `06, 11:44AM Originally posted by longchen: I don't have the book with me now... But... I think he said something like this... 1. Be the witnessing Presence... watching the thinker. This should be I AM. 2. He also described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time. This is like a state of gap between thinking. 3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation. There shouldn't be a 'beyond'. Yes Longchen, Very well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else. When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality. Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into the non-duality without certain pre-requiste can cause problems. There is always habitual propensities that will again make this experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go without sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this new found experience. Many have mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns, there must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then our thoughts and the experience of presence...completely letting go from moment to moment...the senses and thoughts can be shut by this art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid Presence must fuse into one. Practice during the waking state till the there is no single trace of doubt that there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-conscious propensites require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep well.

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:27am UTC+08

oh

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:28am UTC+08

06 Feb `07, 11:58AM Originally posted by longchen: Hmmm... although i have fully understood that existence is non-dual and can at times goes into the bliss of no one, physical pain still hurts like hell. I think we should not negate pain and suffering. For those who have suffered losses in the recent floods, the pain is real. The subject-object split is false... but the pain created by causes and conditions is real. And that is what non-dual is all about. There is no-self to obstruct the experience, it is as real and as clear as it can be. you replied: Side Message: The deep dreamless sleep is a very precious state of being, a natural samadhi of its own, a measure of accomplishment in the first complete cycle of non-dual. If conditions are understood along with our pristine nature, all 3 states flow as a single whole.

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:28am UTC+08

Yes. When?

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08

06 Feb `07, 11:58AM

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08

buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/235502

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08

Yeah...coz he is still in witnessing state.  Lol...I still rem

Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:32am UTC+08

huh.. can't be.. longchen at that time already stabilized nondual

John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:33am UTC+08

Yeah but not anatta. Non-dual awareness. Or has he realized anatta? If he does, then I would have told him total exertion”

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