Mr ED went through the I AM and experienced dissociative and other associated unpleasant mental conditions before. Now he is very eager to penetrate anatta and had some glimpses lately.

Mr ED said:

Oooh thank you my friend

I appreciate very much everything you sent me

I believe one of the things that still get in the way of my realization is the despersonalization

That i might have some

That creates confusion

But some of the things ive been perceiving was:

I noticed how sometimes i do not feel as me

But a collection of conditions

And time is kind of disappearing

One of the thoughts that have been in my head is

There is no time, only change

Change creates a false perception of time because of memory

Also, this sense of "collection of things" forming me always sounded more appropiate to define since i was studying about spirituality in my more occultist times

But realize, feel this os something more difficult

That slowly is building



Soh replied:

Do not feel as me but collection of conditions is good

But is there nondual clarity?

If there is not, it is dissociation

If there is, everything is self liberation

John Tan, 2007:


Thoughts, feelings and perceptions come and go; they are not ‘me’; they are
transient in nature. Isn’t it clear that if I am aware of these passing
thoughts, feelings and perceptions, then it proves some entity is immutable and
unchanging? This is a logical conclusion rather than experiential truth. The
formless reality seems real and unchanging because of propensities
(conditioning) and the power to recall a previous experience and the experience
of ‘impersonality’ may not be able to bring sufficient clarity to the
‘impermanent and dynamic’ aspect of isness presence. The bliss and peace
experienced here, is still the bliss of formlessness.

There is also another experience, this experience does not discard or disown
the transients -- forms, thoughts, feelings and perceptions. It is the
experience that thought thinks and sound hears. Thought knows not because there
is a separate knower but because it is that which is known. It knows because
it's it. It gives rise to the insight that isness never exists in an
undifferentiated state but as transient manifestation; each moment of
manifestation is an entirely new reality, complete in its own. This brings
about the insight of non-duality but the experience of ‘impersonality need not
necessarily arise.

My experience is fusing and stabilizing these 2 experiences are necessary to
help further dissolve the ‘I’. With the dropping of the 'I' , experience
whole-heartedly and dropped the experience immediately; then nothing will
imobilize the flow.

PS: By the way, any idea what give rise to the sense of impersonality?

Session Start: Thursday, 31 May, 2007

(2:47 PM) AEN: tibetan teachings seems to often say bcos the nature of our mind is luminous defilements can be removed.. like wanderer's saying the mind is not the dust, so can be removed
(2:48 PM) AEN: even ajahn chah says "the heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. let things be just as they are! let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. why should we bother to attach to them? if we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness. our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. just like oil and water - they are in the same bottle but they are separate"
(2:49 PM) AEN: then the buddha taught,
(2:49 PM) AEN: Reply with Quote
Luminous is this mind,
Brightly shining, but it is
Colored by the attachments
That visit it.
This unlearned people do not
Really understand,
And so do not cultivate the
(2:49 PM) AEN:
Luminous is this mind,
Brightly shining,
And it is free of the
Attachments that visit it.
This the noble follower
Of the way really understands;
So for them there is
Cultivation of the mind.

- Anguttara Nikaya
(2:52 PM) AEN: wat u tink
(6:29 PM) Thusness: think of?
(6:42 PM) AEN: something like there is stain on ur window, u know stain is not part of ur window tats y u can clean it away
(6:42 PM) Thusness: this is a wrong view in the absolute sense and not prajna wisdom.
(6:43 PM) AEN: oic so tats said in conventional sense?
(6:44 PM) Thusness: in the conventional sense, it should not be spoken that way too. The way ajahn chah puts it is no good. It becomes advaita.
(6:44 PM) Thusness: with all respect, that is not what the buddha taught. :)
(6:44 PM) AEN: oic
(6:44 PM) Thusness: i will explain to u later...i go eat first.
(6:45 PM) AEN: ok cya

(6:46 PM) Thusness: u have posted Phagguna Sutta in simpo site. What is such a teaching important?
(6:47 PM) AEN: uh bcos it concerns our nature?
(6:51 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(6:56 PM) AEN: just now i went to ABC, flipped through dalai lama's book and come across this chapter talking about mind's luminosity, then hhdl mentioned something like the window and stain and stain can be removed
(6:56 PM) AEN: then later went palelai and got 2 bks from ajahn chah, one part also mention this
(6:57 PM) AEN: like just now that part
(7:00 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(7:01 PM) AEN: -- wanderer typed:
(7:01 PM) AEN:

(3) Know that your true nature has never ever been stained by such temporary defilements. Therefore such defilements are removable.

You have to recognize that at that moment you are angry, but you are NOT anger.

Knowing that you are NOT anger is important, because then anger is removable.
(7:01 PM) AEN:
Just like when there is a stain on your window, you know that the stain is not part of your window, that is why you will clean away the stain. If you don't believe that the stain is removable, if you thought that the stain were part of the window, then you wouldn't even attempt to clean it away.

Likewise, when your anger arises, recognize the fact that you want to and you can actually remove anger is because it was never part of your true nature. Know that the stain is clean-able. The anger and all other defilements are removable. Your original nature (often referred to as Buddha Nature, or Tathagatha-garbha, or kham) is primordially pure and unstained.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: u see this is how modern teachers teach about buddha's teaching.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: if that is the case, then who need buddha's teaching at all.
(7:02 PM) Thusness: and why the correction in the Phagguna Sutta?
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) Thusness: what would buddha say in phagguna sutta if this was said in the phagguna sutta?
(7:03 PM) AEN: there is no 'who', but conditions arise?
(7:04 PM) Thusness: do not say that 'not me'...change it to 'no me'.
(7:04 PM) Thusness: not me implies that there is a 'me', an 'I'.
(7:04 PM) Thusness: there are few groups of practitioners.
(7:05 PM) Thusness: one has not experienced anything at all, the I is an individual 'I'.
(7:06 PM) Thusness: there are also those that experienced 'I AMness' but has not experienced infinite expansion of 'I'
(7:06 PM) Thusness: there is another group that experienced the 'I' as the infinite I.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: there are those that experienced non-duality but continue to be under the influence of propensities, unable to experience the breadth and depth of non-dual.
(7:08 PM) Thusness: there are those that are completely one in non-dual, free of propensities of 'I'.
(7:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:08 PM) Thusness: why was the Phagguna Sutta taught?
(7:09 PM) Thusness: because Buddha has realised the subtlety of imprints.
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:10 PM) Thusness: Even if one has experienced non-duality, it will not be easy for him to go beyond this 'seed' if he overlooked and continue to employ dualistic interpretation.
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:10 PM) Thusness: therefore Buddha corrected these practitioners.
(7:10 PM) Thusness: even they have experienced no-self.
(7:11 PM) Thusness: unknowingly, the re-enforced and create imprints.
(7:11 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) Thusness: Phagguna Sutta is the language of no-self and emptiness.
(7:11 PM) Thusness: not only there is no 'I', there is no 'mine'.
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic
(7:12 PM) Thusness: not that 'thoughts' has no 'I', it is has no 'mine'.
(7:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:12 PM) Thusness: this then is dharmakaya. First is non-duality, then it is the experience of dharmakaya.
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic
(7:13 PM) AEN: so dharmakaya is non duality without any propensities left?

(7:13 PM) Thusness: when we say we are not 'thoughts', we are not 'feelings', we are not 'forms'
(7:13 PM) Thusness: then does that mean that there is an 'I' that is not transient?
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:14 PM) AEN: wat u tink about the teaching of tathagathagarbha as being 'primordially pure and unstained' or something like that
(7:14 PM) Thusness: there is a clarity that is untouched but it must be viewed in terms of emptiness.
(7:14 PM) AEN: oic
(7:15 PM) Thusness: if this tathagathagarbha nature is taught but without knowing emptiness, then it is erroneous views.
(7:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:16 PM) AEN: pure and unstained shld be understood in terms of emptiness and self-liberation?
(7:17 PM) Thusness: yeah
(7:17 PM) Thusness: but stressing that pure and unstained should not be misunderstood as there is something behind.
(7:17 PM) Thusness: it is from beginning pure and unstained.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: we never lost our clarity.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: even for a moment.
(7:18 PM) Thusness: but when I said that, I do not mean that there is a clarity behind phenomenon.
(7:18 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:19 PM) Thusness: pain is clarity, otherwise why is there pain. How is it that we feel it is so real?
(7:19 PM) Thusness: isn't it clear.
(7:19 PM) AEN: oic
(7:19 PM) Thusness: when there is momentum, there is 'self', isn't this clear?
(7:19 PM) AEN: icic
(7:20 PM) Thusness: everything is as clear as it can be, as luminous.
(7:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:21 PM) Thusness: actually u just have to see manifestation, see conditions and that is all.
(7:21 PM) Thusness: there is no need to look for buddhahood.
(7:21 PM) Thusness: naked awareness is just this.
(7:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:23 PM) AEN: no need to look for buddhahood as in
(7:23 PM) Thusness: one can experience non-duality, understand non-duality thoroughly and yet still continue to reinforce the seed of 'I' due to our conventional language.
(7:24 PM) Thusness: but when one uses language of emptiness and no-self as in the case of Phagguna Sutta, the deconstruction is every moment.
(7:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:26 PM) Thusness: then we will know that how true the dualistic language has bonded and moulded me into experiencing an 'I' and using the way of Phagguna Sutta to deconstruction the views of the world and together with the experience of non-duality, one experiences the true breadth and depth of non-duality.
(7:27 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:27 PM) AEN: oh theres one part in ajahn chah's book that he mentioned his experience of deconstruction too
(7:27 PM) AEN:
(7:27 PM) AEN: search 'space'
(7:30 PM) AEN: btw ajahn chah speaks a lot on 3 dharma seals and vipassana
(7:30 PM) AEN: but somewhere he also mentions about 'that which knows'.. sounds a bit like 'i am' lol
(7:30 PM) AEN: i tink ajahn mun's lineage ppl also say tat
(7:30 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:30 PM) AEN: u also remember rite
(7:30 PM) Thusness: it becomes advaita.
(7:30 PM) AEN: oic
(7:31 PM) AEN: he said 'Thus the Buddha taught to abide as 'that which knows' [2] and simply bear witness to that which arises. Once you have trained your awareness to abide as 'that which knows', and have investigated the mind and developed insight into the truth about the mind and mental factors, you'll see the mind as anatta (not-self).
(7:31 PM) Thusness: there is nothing and no 'I' apart from manifestation.
(7:31 PM) AEN: icic
(7:31 PM) Thusness: no
(7:32 PM) Thusness: buddha taught there is only the arising and ceasing, there is nothing apart from that. Just the correct and right view.
(7:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:32 PM) Thusness: when we have the wrong view, we see things in the form of life and death.
(7:32 PM) Thusness: when we have the right view, we see the unborn, uncreated.
(7:33 PM) AEN: oic
(7:33 PM) Thusness: ever manifesting.
(7:33 PM) Thusness: buddha taught there is only the arising and ceasing, there is nothing apart from that. Just whether the view is correct or wrong view.
(7:34 PM) AEN: back
(7:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:34 PM) Thusness: when one is able to experience our nature as it is, the bliss experienced is different.
(7:35 PM) AEN: oic
(7:35 PM) Thusness: The experience and bliss of an eternal witness observing the transient and the full experience of just the transient is different.
(7:36 PM) Thusness: the bliss and clarity of no-self is of a different dimension.
(7:37 PM) AEN: icic
(7:37 PM) Thusness: u must understand that buddhism does not deny clarity, luminosity.
(7:37 PM) Thusness: but we must realise what clarity is.
(7:37 PM) AEN: oic
(7:37 PM) AEN: btw u read ajahn chah's bk b4? how u find them
(7:37 PM) Thusness: yes i have read it b4. :)

(7:38 PM) Thusness: i find that ajahn chah is proned towards "I AMness".
(7:38 PM) Thusness: that is the trace of self is still there.
(7:38 PM) Thusness: I do not know, since he is already (being claimed to be) an arhat. :P
(7:39 PM) Thusness: i prefer u to read dharma
(7:39 PM) AEN: oic he did state tat?
(7:39 PM) AEN: as in he's arhat
(7:39 PM) AEN: i heard about it also
(7:39 PM) AEN: icic
(7:39 PM) Thusness: i do not know...
(7:40 PM) AEN: i heard from e-sangha dunnu isit the same monk that criticised ajahn maha boowa... that ajahn mun and its lineage ppl, ajahn chah, ajahn maha boowa etc lean towards eternalism... then the other lineage like ajahn buddhadhasa lean towards nihilism or something like that
(7:40 PM) AEN: oic but how u know he's arhat
(7:40 PM) Thusness: i mean ppl say, not i know.
(7:40 PM) AEN: icic
(7:41 PM) Thusness: the teaching of buddha's is very profound and subtle.
(7:41 PM) Thusness: we need to practice hard to validate what that is taught.
(7:41 PM) AEN: oic
(7:42 PM) Thusness: otherwise mostly we will misinterpret.
(7:42 PM) Thusness: most likely
(7:42 PM) Thusness: ehehehe
(7:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: a person must be able to experience the dissolution of the self to a great extent before the teaching of buddha can be fully appreciated.
(7:43 PM) Thusness: that is even after he/she has experienced non-duality.
(7:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:46 PM) Thusness: but try not to comment on ajahn chah.
(7:46 PM) AEN: yea
(7:46 PM) Thusness: i do not want u to have another issue like lao tze.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: :)
(7:46 PM) AEN: hahaha
(7:46 PM) AEN: oh ya is tmr lol
(7:49 PM) Thusness:
(7:50 PM) AEN: btw ajahn brahm under ajahn chah u know?
(7:52 PM) Thusness: yeah
(7:52 PM) Thusness: heard of.
(7:52 PM) Thusness: why?
(7:53 PM) AEN: nothing much.. lol
(7:54 PM) Thusness: but u know wat i meant right?
(7:54 PM) AEN: yea
(7:55 PM) Thusness: however it is okie to experience the "I AMness" first. :)
(7:56 PM) Thusness: with the teaching and the experience of your teacher as guidance, moving into non-duality and the experience of dharmakaya.
(7:56 PM) AEN: icic..

Session Start: Thursday, 31 May, 2007

(8:29 PM) Thusness: just meditated for 15 mins...ahaha
(8:29 PM) AEN: lol
(8:29 PM) AEN: icic
(8:29 PM) AEN: so how was it
(8:29 PM) Thusness: forgot to tell u the part on "even ajahn chah says "the heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. let things be just as they are! let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. why should we bother to attach to them? if we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness.
(8:30 PM) AEN: icic
(8:30 PM) AEN: so wat u wanted to say
(8:31 PM) Thusness: is very important.
(8:31 PM) Thusness: that is the experience of the 2nd door.
(8:31 PM) Thusness: our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. just like oil and water - they are in the same bottle but they are separate"
(8:31 PM) Thusness: this part is advaita.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: so there is the 2nd door without the clarity of non-dual.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: but the first part is very important in terms of experience.
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:33 PM) Thusness: some is non-duality without second door.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: but each door is to deal with a particular aspect of 'self'
(8:33 PM) AEN: icic
(8:33 PM) AEN: longchen now knows second door rite
(8:33 PM) Thusness: yeah
(8:34 PM) AEN: icic
(8:34 PM) Thusness: but the depth of the experience, dunno.
(8:34 PM) Thusness: eheheh
(8:34 PM) AEN: oic
(8:34 PM) AEN: how come second door will lead to 'things as they are'
(8:35 PM) Thusness: did u read what i said in the post to amadeus?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: on the immense clarity of isness?
(8:36 PM) AEN: tink so
(8:36 PM) AEN: cant remember now
(8:36 PM) Thusness: Isness is not just letting the passing away and not adding and subtracting to the moment.
(8:36 PM) AEN: oic
(8:37 PM) Thusness: it is the immense clarity, aliveness and vividness of the moment.
(8:37 PM) Thusness: the former is the passing away without clarity.
(8:37 PM) Thusness: the later is the clarity those not to the level of non-duality
(8:38 PM) Thusness: these 2 aspects must fuse into one to arise the realisation of self-liberation.
(8:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:38 PM) AEN: so the third is immense clarity of passing away
(8:39 PM) Thusness: did u c what i wrote to amadeus?
(8:39 PM) Thusness: on the post "when truth takes over"
(8:39 PM) Thusness: i said still with all the vividness, it is gone.
(8:39 PM) Thusness: but who can understand...ehhehee
(8:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:39 PM) Thusness: maybe
(8:40 PM) AEN: watch it understands 2nd door and clarity?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: not exactly, the experience is there.

“Collection of things” is very important. When directly realized then apply it to all phenomena.. then that is twofold emptiness

Have you watched this before:

The dissolution of both personal self and ultimate Self is not to be feared

It only becomes problematic if only gone halfway. Then it becomes dissociation

Then with that you will experience dark nights

Have you seen this article:


25 Jan `07, 2:47PM
(commenting on some of Suzanne Segal's descriptions) If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay person’s inmost consciousness that “he can’t go beyond this line”, that lay person will feel that the so called ‘imaginary’ boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are ‘bonded’ to dualistic view of a ‘Self’ is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that "invisible line" is not the experience of “no-self” in Buddhism and therefore I would not call her experience an “insight” into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like very strong ‘self/Self’ propensities, it is a form of split, a separation.

Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help reacting to it.
One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before "content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter this problem.

In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experienced (clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second, the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of liberation as that boundary, that separation disappeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in the experience of no-self.

Edited by Thusness 25 Jan `07, 11:57PM

When all self/Self is gone, there is no dissociation, no fear and other dark night problems. There is liberation, intensity of luminosity, aliveness, bliss, nondual, boundless release

Even if you want to call it depersonalized it is ok. But it is not a deluded, suffering state.

Actual freedom richard said:

Apperceptiveness has its own distinct ambience in consciousness: it has a flavour – a magical, crystal-clear, scintillating flavour – whereas feelings are heady, magisterial and grandiloquent by comparison ... finicky and phantasmal and flighty and fantastical. Yet these are but descriptive words and one’s own action will show one the difference ... then one will probably come up with one’s own words and the words used here will become superfluous. Action is the thing as apperception is a living actuality that adds nothing to perception nor subtracts anything – it distorts not at all – and sees things as they actually are. One can apperceive prime characteristics that actual freedom factually shows. In psychiatric terms, for example, these are called:
1. ‘depersonalisation’ (selflessness ... the absence of an entity that is called ego and Soul or self and Self).
2. ‘alexithymia’ (the absence of the affective faculty ... no emotions, passions or calentures whatsoever).
3. ‘derealisation’ (the condition of having lost one’s grip on reality ... the ‘real world’ is nowhere to be found).
4. ‘anhedonia’ (the inability to affectively feel pleasure/pain ... no hormonal secretions means hedonism is not possible).

But the absence of affective does not mean inability to have compassion or care for others or love someone else.

In my experience

Kyle dixon: "...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

“level 1
· 2d
I suppose my question is manifold. If emotion isn't part of the mind's nature, do positive emotions such as joy and happiness need to be abandoned along with the kleshas if one wants to achieve a pure mind?
If you practice effectively and begin to have instances of awakened, nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness, then you will encounter what is called prajñā, which is the transcendent and ecstatic knowledge of emptiness that occurs while in awakened equipoise. Prajñā is forceful and bright and actually involuntarily “burns” away kelśas just by virtue of its nature. As such, if you cultivate awakened equipoise, then each time you establish a samādhi infused with prajñā, more and more kleśas will be exhausted, and with them, the seeds for afflictive states of mind and negative emotions.
You will still be able to have positive emotions, but overall you will actually end up establishing a state of equanimity where you will be pretty even all the time, content and undisturbed.
With that your compassion will naturally increase, because compassion is actually an innate property of the nature of mind.
The prajñā or “wisdom” of suchness/emptiness that knows the actual nature of phenomena, manifests once the knowledge obscuration that misconceives of an inherent identity or "self" in phenomena is exhausted as a result of authentic awakening. The direct realization of an absence of self in persons and phenomena is then the basis of compassion, as noted in the Sangs rgyas gsang ba'i lam rim:
Being empty, it is always devoid of attributes, and free from the clinging to the notion of self. Therefore, the suchness upon seeing this forms the basis for the arising of compassion.
Padampa Sangye concurs:
When you realize emptiness, it would be absurd to do anything negative. When you realize emptiness, compassion arises with it simultaneously.
· 1d
So you’re saying that compassion IS part of mind’s pure nature and is not a coloring “hue” like emotions might be, according to the Dalai Lama’s framework, correct?
Yes, compassion is considered to be an innate aspect of the nature of mind, and altruistic in that the aspect of karuna or compassion actually works for the benefit of other beings by virtue of its very nature. In some teachings it says that this compassion selflessly performs virtuous and altruistic deeds on behalf of beings.
Is the idea that the pure nature of the mind is inherently virtuous/beneficial?
Yes. We are kind and compassionate by nature. The less compassionate amongst us just have a bit more dust on their mirrors, so to speak.
From Ācārya Malcolm:
In Dzogchen, there is little need to 'cultivate' compassion since compassion is recognized a) to be innate b) will be expanded up by recognizing your own state.
...We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.
Then, when we recognize our true condition, our compassion will burst out like the sun behind a cloud.
2” – Krodha (Kyle Dixon) -


Hello my friend

Do not feel as me but collection of conditions is good

But is there nondual clarity?

If there is not, it is dissociation

If there is, everything is self liberation


Mr Ed wrote:

I don't know... it's probably dissociation

Because it doesnt feel like an awakening, sometimes it even brings an uneasy feeling

Uneasy not even in the way of expecting something new and being anxious, but weird

So it's probably just my dissociation

Also, i've seen you sent me many things, thank you my friend, i will read them as soon as possible

Had a really good day today, i've seen some long term friends i didn't see in many time, and they were really heartwarming in welcoming me back

Very kind with words and reception, made me feel realy cherished

Soh replied:

:) have to experience the luminous clarity as manifestation with vividness and without background.. then with two stanzas you can breakthrough and realize

Session Start: Mon Jan 03 20:15:44 2005
Session Ident: ^john^
[20:18] <ZeN`hw> hello John... have u heard about drugs like LSD which can cause ppl to feel "united with the universe", and realise that we are all "one organism"?
[20:18] <ZeN`hw> 122. The sixth type of psychedelic experience has been called by such names as psychedelic-peak, cosmic, transcendental, or mystical. Some of the psychological phenomena which are said to characterize this experience, are: a sense of unity or 'cosmic oneness' with the universe; a feeling of transcendence of time and space; a deeply felt positive mood of joy, blessedness, love, and peace; a sense of sacredness, awe and, wonder; a feeling of profound theological or religious awareness; a feeling of insight into reality at an intuitive, nonrational level; an awareness of things which seem logically contradictory and paradoxical; and a belief that the experience is beyond words, non-verbal and impossible to describe. The full peak experience, in its entirety, does not occur in the majority of individuals, is usually transient, and does not last for long in its full intensity, although it may have persisting effects on attitudes an
[20:18] <ZeN`hw>
[22:01] <^john^> yes. :)
[22:02] <^john^> But it is far from what it is being described.
[22:02] <^john^> I have told Sangha about OBE too when he told me his friend is able to see his own body during meditation.
[22:05] <^john^> In fact Baba Ram Dass (not exactly sure whether is it him) used to be a Harvard Lecturer in psychology. He experimented using LSD to induce mystical experience.
[22:06] <^john^> He was dismissed because of that. :)
[22:19] <ZeN`n1th> oh.. icic
[22:19] <^john^> Zennith, the experience of Thusness is not what that is described by them.
[22:20] <^john^> It is nothing close if u believe me.
[22:20] <^john^> how is one able to understand. :)
[22:21] <^john^> I just written something today.
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> har?
[22:21] <ZeN`n1th> written wat
[22:21] <^john^> my meditation. :P
[22:22] <ZeN`n1th> oh icic.. wat is it about?
[22:22] <^john^> 03.01.2005
[22:22] <^john^> How could anyone understand?
[22:22] <^john^> The crying, the sound, the noise is buddha.
[22:22] <^john^> It is all the experience of Thusness.
[22:22] <^john^> To know the true meaning of this
[22:22] <^john^> Hold not even the slightest trace of 'I'.
[22:22] <^john^> In the most natural state of ILessNess,
[22:22] <^john^> All Is.
[22:22] <^john^> Even if one said the same statement,
[22:22] <^john^> the depth of experience differs.
[22:22] <^john^> The is no point convincing anyone.
[22:22] <^john^> Can anyone understand?
[22:22] <^john^> Any form of rejection
[22:22] <^john^> Any sort of division
[22:22] <^john^> Is to reject buddhahood.
[22:22] <^john^> If there is a slightest sense of a subject, an experiencer
[22:22] <^john^> we miss the point.
[22:22] <^john^> Natural Awareness is subjectless
[22:22] <^john^> The vividness and clarity
[22:22] <^john^> Feel, taste, see and hear with totality
[22:22] <^john^> There is always no 'I'.
[22:22] <^john^> Thank you Buddha, You truly know.
[22:23] <^john^> :)
[22:23] <^john^> It is difficult to understand the subtlety.
[22:23] <ZeN`n1th> icic... v nice
[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005
[22:25] <^john^> Without 'self' oneness is immediately attained.
[22:25] <^john^> There is only and always this Isness. Subject has always been the Object of observation.
[22:25] <^john^> This is true samadhi without entering trance.
[22:25] <^john^> Completely understanding this truth. It is the true way towards liberation.
[22:25] <^john^> Every sound, sensation, arising of consciousness is so clear, real and vivid.
[22:25] <^john^> Every moment is samadhi.
[22:25] <^john^> The tip of the fingers in contact with the keyboard, mysteriously created the
[22:25] <^john^> contact consciousness, what is it? Feel the entirety of beingness and realness.
[22:25] <^john^> There is no subject...just Isness.
[22:25] <^john^> No thought, there really is no thought and no 'self'. Only Pure Awareness.
[22:25] <^john^> :)
[22:26] <^john^> Zennith, it is meaningless to tok about anything. Just practice hard.
[22:27] <ZeN`n1th> icic...
[22:27] <^john^> The depth of emptiness cannot be measured.
[22:27] <ZeN`n1th> ok
Session Close: Mon Jan 03 23:30:08 2005


Soh: when luminosity in foreground is experienced, the world literally comes alive and is radiant and intense, but without self/Self

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