Apologies for the super off-topic post but: Are dzogchen and quan yin method the same thing?

It's real hard to get info on quan yin as it's an initiatory transmission lineage but they seem to work with some kind of inner sound and from what I can gather it seems to provide an exceptionally quick advancement. Can anyone share if they are similar or not?

Soh replied privately:


Quan yin method and teachings only lead to the first two stages here:

Dzogchen guided by a highly realised master leads to all stages including the crucial 5 to 7 that is hallmark of buddhist enlightenment

I AM [i.e. as the recognition of the clarity aspect of one's basis] is just the preliminary rigpa of dzogchen

Also read:

Sep 13

shared with someone days ago:

Dzogchen subreddit is good because krodha (kyle dixon) is admin there. He went through all the way to anatta and emptiness and his insights are deep. Not many subreddits have this clarity because lack if people deeply awakened

Sent this to someone like yesterday:

there's another guy on reddit who is very clear, the admin of dzogchen reddit (i've been added as a mod past few days):

Sent this message to someone yesterday:

“if you are interested in Dzogchen, I can recommend Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith. both John Tan and I attended his teachings and found it resonating, very similar in view and insights

another one is Prabodha Jnana Yogi and Abhaya Devi Yogini

i just became moderator at the dzogchen subreddit days ago

Krodha made me a moderator, also Krodha (Kyle Dixon) is also highly awakened having realised anatman and sunyata as well, and by good karma i was able to meet Acarya Malcolm Smith and Kyle together at California two years ago. it was really coincidentally and good karma cos malcolm (who is kyle's teacher) doesn't even live in california and i too just happened to pass by that state at that time in my travels, i live halfway across the globe in singapore

malcolm smith told me over dinner that kyle was the first person who understand his teachings completely

then malcolm invited me to his retreats next year

john tan and i were able to join his teachings in 2020

so if interested you can check out if there are any other teachings in time to come

here's an article by Acarya Malcolm Smith explaining dzogchen view on the basis:

im really glad i was able to join his teachings though, it just became clear how resonating it is after hearing him speak. didnt know dzogchen is so similar.

also, kyle and malcolm pointed out that the I AM is also the initial rigpa of Dzogchen which is later matured with the realisation of anatman and emptiness at later stage called 3rd vision

Sep 14

btw I'm Soh, co author of the blog


(2:01 AM) AEN:   
    Q: Master, Why is it seeing light and hearing sounds so important in

    M: Because that is our own real self. Light and sound is the
       manifestation of our wisdom inside, which is invisible to our eyes and
       ears. Hearing the sound doesn't mean you hear with the ears. Seeing the
       light doesn't mean you see with eyes. It's just the inside awareness of
       your own self, of your own glorious nature, that we are light; that we
       are a beautiful melody and that we are not the body. And the more you
       hear of this invisible, inaudible sound, the more you'll see this
       invisible light or heaven, the wiser you'll become; the more loving
       you'll become; the more satisfaction you'll gain; and the more
       efficient you will be to serve the world.
(2:01 AM) AEN:           It's not because the light and sound are important; it is because it is
       ourselves. It's just like food, we don't eat because of the taste only;
       it's because it will give nourishment that will later manifest as
       strength and energy, so that we can work for the family; we can think;
       we can read books; and we can do other things. That is the importance
       of food. Similarly, the importance of the light and sound is that it
       makes us wiser, more loving, more capable in all aspects. Alright?

                        Supreme Master Ching Hai answered on March 9, 1993 in Singapore
(2:01 AM) AEN:
(2:02 AM) AEN:     

Quan Yin Method -- the meditation on Inner Light and Inner Sound.
The inner Light, the Light of God, is the same Light referred to in the word "enlightenment".

The inner Sound, is the Word referred in Bible:" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. ..."

It is through the inner Light and Sound that we come to know God...
(2:02 AM) AEN:   

For example, the Christian Bible states, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) This Word is the inner Sound. It has also been called the Logos, Shabd, Tao, Soundstream, Naam, or the Celestial Music. Master Ching Hai says, It vibrates within all life and sustains the whole universe. This inner melody can heal all wounds, fulfill all desires, and quench all worldly thirst. It is all powerful and all Love. It is because we are made of this Sound, that contact with it brings peace and contentment to our hearts. After listening to this Sound, our whole being changes, our entire outlook on life is greatly altered for the better.

The inner Light, the Light of God, is the same Light referred to in the word "enlightenment". Its intensity can range from a subtle glow to the brilliance of many millions of suns. It is through the inner Light and Sound that we come to know God.
(2:03 AM) AEN:    wat kind of experience is this?
(2:24 AM) AEN:    For example like, for an ordinary person to get enlightenment, you normally will see Light and hear Sound - Light of different colors or brilliance, sometimes more than a thousand suns. Some people will see less than that. Some people just see kind of moving black clouds for some time, but very rare. Most people see immediate Light from God.

Light represents wisdom, the super consciousness; the Light without shadows, the Light that you don't see with your eyes but you see with your inner awareness. That is called enlightenment when you see that. Then you hear the Sound, the silent Sound from God, which brings you the message from heaven. It's kind of like music, but without instruments. You can't make out what it is; but it is so beautiful and melodious, it lifts you up above the mundane level of consciousness and brings you back to where you are supposed to be.
-- ching hai,

(2:36 AM) AEN:    she says our true self is that light and sound

Session Start: Sunday, 20 May, 2007

(9:41 AM) Thusness:    The description is true but the explanation is not quite right.  It is distorting a transcendental experience similar to that of "I AM".  It is having an experience of non-dual but not knowing what is non-dual.  It is also not knowing what is emptiness nature.
(9:42 AM) AEN:    how come "I AM" has to do with light and sound?
(9:42 AM) AEN:    so she knows "I AM"?
(9:45 AM) Thusness:    i go makan first...and of course. :P
(9:45 AM) Thusness:    it is clear.

(9:54 AM) AEN:    but why has 'I AM' got to do with light and sound
(9:55 AM) AEN:    anyway the master is a charismatic cult leader :P
(10:09 AM) Thusness:    yeah i know. 
(10:09 AM) Thusness:    But as long as she does not bring in buddhism, it is okie.
(10:09 AM) AEN:    she does!
(10:09 AM) Thusness:    she can be treated as a new age leader like ET (Soh: Eckhart Tolle). :P
(10:09 AM) AEN:    lol
(10:09 AM) AEN:    tats why buddhism always see her as cult

(10:10 AM) Thusness:    but if she does, then she is distorting the essence of buddhism.
(10:10 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:10 AM) Thusness:    she may be accepted in advaita/vedanta but not buddhism.
(10:10 AM) AEN:    icic
(10:10 AM) Thusness:    i wonder why these people must bring in Buddha's name and say this is the essence of his teaching.
(10:10 AM) Thusness:    just remain what they experience.
(10:11 AM) AEN:    oic hahaha
(10:11 AM) Thusness:    there is no need to ascribe this to the teaching of buddha.
(10:11 AM) AEN:    btw how come 'i am' has to do with light and sound? btw u heard of ching hai b4?
(10:11 AM) Thusness:    yeah
(10:11 AM) Thusness:    it is her experience.
(10:12 AM) Thusness:    like i tell u the 6 doors.
(10:12 AM) Thusness:    "I AM" is just a door in the thought realm.
(10:12 AM) Thusness:    hers is light and sound
(10:12 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:12 AM) AEN:    so hers is not 'I AM'?
(10:12 AM) Thusness:    when all doors and vividness are cleared, there is only One taste.
(10:13 AM) Thusness:    then there is strengthening the experience of one taste as described in the 10 stages of mahamudra practices.
(10:13 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:13 AM) Thusness:    till "Emptiness is Form" is completely cleared.
(10:13 AM) Thusness:    one might think that he already is very clear about this, but that is an illusion.
(10:13 AM) Thusness:    there is no end to this experience and no depth to it.
(10:14 AM) Thusness:    all others stages are just the depth and intensity of this experience.
(10:14 AM) Thusness:    that manifestation is really the source and emptiness is form.
(10:14 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:15 AM) Thusness:    even till now, every time i tell u i have another break-through, it is all about the intensity of this experience.
(10:15 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:15 AM) Thusness:    from arising, to ceasing to spontaneity to self-liberation.
(10:15 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:15 AM) Thusness:    there is no beyond...there is only the clarity and degree of intensity.
(10:16 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:16 AM) AEN:    btw ching hai's experience is not 'i am' then?
(10:16 AM) Thusness:    it is.
(10:16 AM) AEN:    but i tot 'i am' is thought realm only?
(10:17 AM) Thusness:    u don't know is difficult for u to understand in terms of words.
(10:17 AM) AEN:    lol ok
(10:17 AM) Thusness:    only a person that has experienced it will know what she is toking about.
(10:18 AM) Thusness:    Like Yougarksooo (Scott Kiloby) that becomes a teacher. :P
(10:18 AM) AEN:    oic lol
(10:18 AM) AEN:    icic
(10:18 AM) Thusness:    he might not accept what i said but it depends on his yuan.
(10:18 AM) Thusness:    not that i am higher in terms of experience or what....
(10:18 AM) Thusness:    it is just a matter of insight. :)
(10:19 AM) Thusness:    in fact i do not like to tok about much there because it is a forum about ET [eckhart tolle].
(10:19 AM) Thusness:    and it is no good to shake their faith...
(10:19 AM) Thusness:    it all depends on yuan [conditions]...

(10:19 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:20 AM) Thusness:    just that sometimes i find it a waste if someone is close or near to a breakthrough.
(10:20 AM) Thusness:    and some might think he already is there so...can't be helped. :P
(10:21 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:21 AM) AEN:    lol
(10:21 AM) Thusness:    it is important that one must not assume the role of a teacher without being thoroughly authenticated because it will only prevent him/her from further understanding...
(10:22 AM) Thusness:    coz one teaches too much and re-enforce the ego structure.
(10:22 AM) Thusness:    the role of a teacher is deeper imprinted into his/her consciousness
(10:22 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:22 AM) Thusness:    even buddha were to appear in front of him/her, they will not recognise.
(10:23 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:24 AM) Thusness:    it is better to focus on one practice than to become a teacher. :P
(10:25 AM) AEN:    icic
(10:25 AM) AEN:    yea
(10:25 AM) Thusness:    in fact i do not like anyone to know about the stages i wrote...just that it is due to yuan that i wrote something to share with JonLS.
(10:26 AM) Thusness:    and sharing is only meaningful when the time is right.
(10:26 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:26 AM) Thusness:    otherwise there isn't much value.
(10:26 AM) Thusness:    even then it can serve as a block.
(10:27 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:27 AM) Thusness:    once a person have some experience and the idea of a teacher arise, it becomes a 'block' very quickly.
(10:27 AM) Thusness:    and one will not like who teach or what...
(10:27 AM) Thusness:    that is plainly the result of ego at work.
(10:27 AM) Thusness:    nothing more than that.
(10:27 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:28 AM) Thusness:    similarly JonLs or Simpo might not like it after certain realisation. :)
(10:28 AM) AEN:    what realisation
(10:28 AM) Thusness:    so don't tok about me in their forums.
(10:28 AM) AEN:    lol
(10:28 AM) AEN:    how come
(10:28 AM) Thusness:    coz it is not respecting their realisation.
(10:29 AM) Thusness:    heehhee


(11:58 PM) Thusness:    i got to go... and u better meditate
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    practice until u bear fruition
(11:58 PM) AEN:    oic.. ok
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    insight + sitting
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    it helps ur progress
(11:58 PM) AEN:    i was thinking wah even that master ching hai make her students sit 5 hours a day :P
(11:59 PM) AEN:    she herself seat 4 hours lol
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    huh?
(11:59 PM) AEN:    i mean meditation
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    c...even cults sit more hours than u and me.
(11:59 PM) AEN:    she very emphasize meditation one
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    :P
(11:59 PM) AEN:    lol
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    if she has the correct knowledge, dunno where is she now. :P
(11:59 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    unfortunately too attached to stages.
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    :P
(12:00 AM) AEN:    wat u mean
(12:00 AM) AEN:    she attached to stages meh
(12:01 AM) AEN:    ?
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    don't like to tok too much about cults.
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    :P
(12:01 AM) AEN:    huh lol
(12:01 AM) AEN:    i mean u said she attached to stages?
(12:01 AM) AEN:    or wat

sim pern chong wrote:

She (Supreme Master Ching Hai) is definitely at 'I AM' stage. She has not yet understood 'no subject-object split'. That is why she say there are 2 parts... body and spirit.

For one who realises non-duality (no subject-object split) there is no division of body and spirit. At non-duality realisation, body is not seen as entity but as perceptions and sensations that are 'not separated from environment'. In fact perception and sensation is the 'environment'.


This thread reminds me of one incident last month.

I was in one shopping center and i saw a shopfront advertising Prana and Arhatic Yoga course.

Well, naturally, i was curious and went in to have a look. I have a chat with one of the persons inside. I think she is a staff or student of the course.

I was looking through the brochures and ask her why the word 'Arhat' was used for the Yoga course. Another lady overhead the conversation and say that the course is pitching at the same level as the Buddhist Arhat.

Having browsed thru some of the brochures, I told her it is not the same. She seems to be in a hurry and asked me to check out their website.

I check out their website. Their teacher talk about I AM oneness realisation.

Indeed, it is not the same level of realisation as the Arhat. The teacher is at I AM level understanding. It is sad that the followers cannot tell the difference.

People are doing business and earning from it. So, i thought better not to disrupt their livelihood by telling them. Also, the chances of them believing what i say will be very slim...


I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.

To me,  'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.

However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required.

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