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Robert Jarlaczyk
6hS80o83c9no380d8i ·
Hi. I am looking for the evidence in the Pali Sutras for the continuation of the mindstream after reaching nirvana. The eternal continuation is clearly the view od mahayana, tantra and dzogchen but i've heard a opinion that there are evidences for that view in pai sutras, not sure if direct or indirect. Can someone shed some light in this subject?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
It is not spoken in pali suttas which is why theravadins do not have such views.
Are you referring to http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../what-is...
What is Consciousness Without Feature (Viññanam anidassanam)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
What is Consciousness Without Feature (Viññanam anidassanam)
What is Consciousness Without Feature (Viññanam anidassanam)
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· 5h
Robert Jarlaczyk
Author
i am not sure. i am talking about the state of nirvana. mahayana, tantra and dzogchen clearly state that this is not an end to mindstream, it is only cesation of skhandas, and i am looking for the evidence of this view in pali canon also.
· 4h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Robert Jarlaczyk Mahayana, tantra and dzogchen also does not treat cessation of skandhas as something to be achieved either. Unless you mean just the afflicted aggregates.
Malcolm:
"One, whoever told you rig pa is not part of the five aggregates? Rig pa is knowledge of your own state. In its impure form one's own state manifests as the five aggregates; in its pure form, it manifests as the five buddha families.
Nagārjuna resolves this issue through using the eight examples. There is no substantial transmission, but there is serial continuity, like lighting a fire from another fire, impressing a seal on a document and so on. See his verses on dependent origination:
All migrating beings are causes and results.
but here there are no sentient beings at all;
just empty phenomena entirely produced
from phenomena that are only empty,
phenomena without a self and what belongs to a self,
[like] utterances, lamps, mirrors, seals,
lenses, seeds, sourness and echoes.
Although the aggregates are serially connected,
the wise are understand that nothing transfers.
Also, the one who imputes annihilation
upon extremely subtle existents,
is not wise,
and will not see the meaning of ‘arising from conditions’."
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Malcolm: "This is a Mahāyāna forum. Pure aggregates continue in buddhahood. See Mahāyānasamgraha. In Mahāyāna, there is also so-called nonabiding nirvana."
Alessandro Socio Migliori
Soh Wei Yu i don t want to contradict malcolm that s for sure far more knowledged than me, but the continuation of the mindstream seems wishful thinking added later in mahayana and isn t in the pali suttas because isn t what the message of the Buddha was. Would like to be wrong, for curiosity what John tan or you think about this? Is there an answer based on insight on reality from the 7 stages? Lama lena in a live said that arahant in the bardo can snuff their mindstream while bodhisattva can decide to continue
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Alessandro Socio Migliori If you treat Pali canon as the sole authoritative canon of texts, then sure it's not hard to see why one would think that way.
John Tan and I are however Mahayanis who aim to attain Buddhahood.. our views are very much formed and influenced by Mahayana texts and we do not consider Mahayana texts 'less authoritative' than Pali canon ones.
Also as Kyle Dixon said, "
Sure, but in Mahāyāna the "Buddha" is not relegated to the historical figure, Śākyamuni, and in fact the Mahāyāna sūtras state that the "Buddha" should not be seen as name and form at all. Which means the definition of the Buddha is not limited to the historical figure.
For this reason "buddhavacana" or "the word of the Buddha" in Mahāyāna becomes whatever is "said well", meaning an exposition that accords with the fundamental principles of karma, rebirth, dependent origination, bodhicitta, etc.
This is because the Buddha is not name and form, meaning the Buddha is not the rūpakāya, but rather the Buddha is the nature of your mind, the dharmakāya.
"
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Aaron Dorje
What would be the point of nirvana if the mindstream didn't continue? The Buddha would have been better off chillin out as a king. Lack of continuation of the mindstream means utter extinction. As in the horns of a rabbit
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
This is why I am a Mahayani.
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Aaron Dorje
I dont get it 🙂
What i mean is: if the minstream does not continue the only alternative is utter extinction after death.
Which would make parinirvana obsolete.
· 3h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aaron Dorje Theravadins treat parinibbana as the cessation of their aggregates continuum, i.e. their mindstream.
Mahayana sees arahats as still having continuums sustained by very subtle ignorance and traces, even though they are free from the coarse afflictions that causes rebirth in the three realms. These arahats are in an extreme of cessation, and will be roused by a Buddha from their state of cessation after a long time to continue the bodhisattva path to Buddhahood.
You can't benefit other beings in a state of cessation. Mahayana considers Buddha's continuum to be always manifesting for the benefit of beings.
Robert Jarlaczyk
Author
well i am not asking about the point of that, or a logic of that. only for an evidence in pali sutras for the continuation. that is a simple question guys, come on 😃
Aaron Dorje
Haha but of course if we dont have the answer to that specific question, we are still going to offer you what we DO have 🤣
· 3h
Robert Jarlaczyk
Author
Aaron Dorje i am already a practitioner of Dzogchen and have understanding of the view, so no need for explanation of how it is with the right view, my question is purely academic 🙂
Aaron Dorje
I'd suggest putting it into google scholar to try to find a paper that deals with that specific subject, because it seems one ripe for academic investigation
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Robert JarlaczykPali Suttas do not talk about continuation of consciousness for arahats. This is the short answer. This is why many Theravadins view about parinibbana are annihilationist (I think Ajahn Brahmavamso, Kenneth Folk, etc falls into this category, I think Kenneth Folk called it cosmic suicide), also some Theravadins are slightly eternalistic (it posits Nibbana as some truly existing absolute but not as some consciousness. e.g. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Walpola Rahula, this is standard Theravadin view - Sautrāntika does not hold such eternalistic views about Nibbana).
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Robert Jarlaczyk
Author
ok but on the other hand, nirvana is described also as a true peace in suttas. no continuation no peace, therefore at least indirect evidence should be present there.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Robert Jarlaczyk All the positive epithets of Nibbana are in fact just positive terms for a negation -- the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-deathless-in...
Nana/Geoff: "“Firstly, while the translation of asaṃskṛta as “the unconditioned” is fairly common, it’s a rather poor translation that all too easily leads to reification. The term asaṃskṛta refers to a negation of conditioned factors, and the meaning is better conveyed by “not-conditioned.” Secondly, for Sautrāntika commentators, and many mahāyānika commentators as well, an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), i.e. a negation that doesn’t imply the presence of some other entity, and therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that terminates the defilements and fetters that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path. It doesn’t refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat).” "
Nana/Geoff: "One has to be careful with such descriptions which may seem to be pointing to some sort of truly existent "unconditioned ground." Nibbāna is the extinguishment of the mental outflows (āsavā). The liberated mind is measureless (appamāṇa). This is not a "state of oneness with all of existence." It's an absence of identification (anattatā). It's non-indicative (anidassana), unestablished (appatiṭṭha), and not-dependent (anissita). None of these adjectives entail any sort of metaphysical "ground of being" or "unconditioned absolute." They are all negations. An arahant has simply "gone out."
tiltbillings: "There is no "deathless." That is a bad translation leading to an objectification/reification of the idea of awakening. With awakening, there is no more rebirth, one is free from death. (31 words.)""
Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm: “When you have eradicated all afflictions which cause rebirth, this is all the deathlessness you need. No more birth, BAM! no more death.”
Buddha: "SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.
And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.
And what, monks, is the outflowless (anāsava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.
And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the truth.
And what, monks, is the farther shore (pāra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther shore.
And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.
And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.
And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unaging.
And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.
And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.
And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the non-indicative.
And what, monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.
And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.
And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.
And what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.
And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the auspicious.
And what, monks, is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.
And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.
And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the wonderful.
And what, monks, is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.
And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the calamity-free.
And what, monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the dhamma free of calamity.
And what, monks, is extinguishment (nibbāna)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.
And what, monks, is the unafflicted (abyāpajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unafflicted.
And what, monks, is dispassion (virāga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.
And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called purity.
And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called freedom.
And what, monks, is the unadhesive (anālaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.
And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the island.
And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the cave.
And what, monks, is the shelter (tāṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.
And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the refuge.
And what, monks, is the destination (parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination." - SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta - more in http://measurelessmind.ca/pariyosana.html
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
More in the link.. just a partial excerpt
Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu At least according to Ajahn Martin of LP Maha Bua tradition,what is considered eternal and liberated is 'citta'(mind),but certainly not 'manos'(consciousness):
http://www.forestdhammatalks.org/.../Ajahn%20Martin_Is...
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan Ajahn Maha Boowa and Ajahn Mun held eternalist views about consciousness. Their view is more of the Vedanta variety, and even Greg Goode told stories about how the Ajahns actually thought Vedanta was similar to their view. Eternalist and Vedantic views about consciousness is very common in Thai Forest tradition.
Their views do not represent the Theravada school's doctrinal views proper though.
Myriad Objects
Liu Zhi Guan very controversial view of course.
and fairly unique to certain strands of the Thai Forest tradition
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Myriad Objects Ajahn Brahmavamso and a few others are the outliers of the Thai Forest school who do not hold eternalist views. And he criticised the other teachers in his tradition a number of times, e.g. Nafis Rahman
Yin Ling
From Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
The Buddha’s Word on the One Who Knows
Even some good, practicing monks fail to breach illusion’s last line of defense, the knower. They take “the one who knows,” “the original mind,” “the pure knowing,” or some other descriptions of the citta as the ultimate and permanent reality. To be accurate, such concepts belong to the teachings of Hinduism and not to Buddhism, for the Buddha clearly refuted these theories as not penetrating deeply enough.
For instance, in the first sutta in the first collection of Buddhist scriptures, the Brahmajāla Sutta, the Buddha described in detail sixty-two types of wrong view (micchā diṭṭhi). Wrong view number eight is the opinion that the thing that is called citta, or mind (mano), or consciousness (viññāṇa) is the permanent self (attā)—stable, eternal, not subject to change, forever the same (DN 1,2,13). Thus maintaining that “the one who knows” is eternal is micchā diṭṭhi, wrong view, says the Buddha.
In the Nidāna Saṃyutta, the Buddha states:
But, bhikkhus, that which is called “mind” [citta] and “mentality” [mano] and “consciousness” [viññāṇa]—the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: “This is mine, this I am, this is self.”…
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self [attā] this body…because this body…is seen standing…for [as long as] a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called “mind” and “mentality” and “consciousness” arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. (SN 12,61)
However, just as the hard scientific evidence mentioned earlier cannot dislodge the view that it is oneself who is the doer, so even the hard scriptural evidence of the Buddha’s own teachings is unable on its own to dislodge the view that “the one who knows” is the ultimate entity, the attā. Some even argue that these Buddhist texts must have been changed, solely on the grounds that the texts disagree with their view!
Such irrational stubbornness comes from bhavataṇhā, the craving to be. Bhavataṇhā is so strong that one is prepared to let go of almost everything—possessions, one’s body, and one’s thoughts—as long as one is finally left with something, some tiny spot of existence, in order to be. After all, one wants to enjoy parinibbāna, thoroughgoing extinction, having worked so hard to get there. Bhavataṇhā is why many great meditators are unable to agree with the Buddha and make that final leap of renunciation that lets go of absolutely everything, including the citta. Even though the Buddha said that “nothing is worth adhering to” (sabbe dhammā nālam abhinivesāya) (MN 37,3), people still adhere to the citta. They continue to hold on to the knower and elevate it to unwarranted levels of mystical profundity by calling it “the ground of all being,” “union with God,” “the original mind,” etc.—even though the Buddha strongly refuted all such clinging, saying that all levels of being stink, the way even a tiny speck of feces on one’s hand stinks (AN I,18,13).
One needs the experiences of many jhānas, combined with a sound knowledge of the Buddha’s own teachings, in order to break through the barrier of bhavataṇhā, the craving to be, and see for oneself that what some call “the citta,” “mind,” “consciousness,” or “the one who knows” is only an empty process, one that is fueled by the craving to be and blinded by the delusion of permanence, but which is clearly of the nature to cease absolutely and leave nothing at all remaining (...)
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Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu Yes,and also likely the same view for Ajahn Chah's lineage.
Myriad Objects Not sure if certain strands,or actually as a whole.
Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu The knower/knowing teaching is quite central aspect in Thai Forest tradition,there is even a term emphasized: pooroo(one who knows)
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan Yes. Ajahn Chah too. More into I AMness.
Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu Come think of it,I remember you mentioned about insomnia in I AM stage. Ajahn Martin mentioned in one meditation retreat in Singapore that he slept ard 5hrs,while LP Maha Bua 3hrs.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan That is still ok.
Ajahn Chah said he doesn't need to sleep for days I think.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
But that is not good.
Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu yeah agreed,be it sleepless for days or only few hours per day. Hence I took up yoga to resolve the issue when it occurred.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan This is not good -
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
If Dhamma practice reaches this level, there’s another inter-
esting side benefit. While asleep, snoring, talking in our sleep,
gnashing our teeth, and tossing and turning will all stop. Even if
we’ve been resting in deep sleep, when we wake up we won’t be
drowsy. We’ll feel energized and alert as if we’d been awake the
whole time. I used to snore, but once the mind remained awake
at all times, snoring stopped. How can you snore when you’re
awake? It’s only the body that stops and sleeps. The mind is
wide awake day and night, around the clock. This is the pure
and heightened awareness of the Buddha: the One Who Knows,
the Awakened One, the Joyous One, the Brilliantly Radiant One.
This clear awareness never sleeps. Its energy is self-sustaining,
and it never gets dull or sleepy. At this stage we can go without
rest for two or three days. When the body begins to show signs
of exhaustion, we sit down to meditate and immediately enter
deep samādhi for five or ten minutes. When we come out of
that state, we feel fresh and invigorated as if we’ve had a full
night’s sleep. If we’re beyond concern for the body, sleep is of
minimal importance. We take appropriate measures to care for
the body, but we aren’t anxious about its physical condition. Let
it follow its natural laws. We don’t have to tell the body what to
do. It tells itself. It’s as if someone is prodding us, urging us
to strive on in our efforts. Even if we feel lazy, there’s a voice
inside that constantly rouses our diligence. Stagnation at this
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On Meditation
point is impossible, because effort and progress have gathered
an unstoppable momentum. Please check this out for yourself.
You’ve been studying and learning a long time. Now it’s time to
study and learn about yourself.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
- Ajahn Chah, Food for the Heart: The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
As John Tan said, these are insomnia and energy imbalances. But even great masters often mistaken it to be a progression or heightened state of awareness.
As John Tan warned, “You realize everyone that claims this ended up having serious health issues.’”, “just don't mistaken all these energy imbalances as achievement. Look at all these issues directly and know how to deal with it.”
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Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu I managed to sleep for 2-3hrs for a few weeks,but fortunately it was largely resolved after a few sessions of hatha yoga. During the insomnia period,my mind felts like it is a reflexive mirror, it was just 'be' - no deliberate thinking so that kept me functional.
". When the body begins to show signs
of exhaustion, we sit down to meditate and immediately enter
deep samādhi for five or ten minutes. "
That was what it did then when i prematurely woke up after 2-4 hours of sleep,though I meditated more like 30mins to even 1 hour.
"- Ajahn Chah, Food for the Heart: The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah"
I have the book😅
Liu Zhi Guan
"As John Tan warned, “You realize everyone that claims this ended up having serious health issues.’”, “just don't mistaken all these energy imbalances as achievement. Look at all these issues directly and know how to deal with it.”"
Fully agreed,good that i identify it as issue and went for a viable solution.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan You haven't went through I AM right?
Liu Zhi Guan
Soh Wei Yu tbh i havent went thru your AtR doc thoroughly yet,so I dont really know what entails the I AM stage.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Liu Zhi Guan A sudden realization of what you are as pure existence, pure presence-awareness. Doubtless.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Updated names above.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Also people like Ven Nyanananda do not hold the standard Theravadin view which subtly reifies Nibbana. More about this http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-meaning-of...
The Meaning of Nirvana
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Meaning of Nirvana
The Meaning of Nirvana
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
I just sent these to someone two weeks ago:
Aaron Dorje
Robert (putting aside that Soh may have already pointed at this), I can TOTALLY see why Buddha may not have emphasised the continuity of awareness, even if he understood its reality.
That's because he was a very skilful teacher who avoided saying things that could distract the students.
(For example, see the sutta about 'the leaves in the forest')
His whole teaching was based on that which was very concrete and observable - form as the body and mind. Even though pointing out awareness can be a powerful sword and shortcut, it probably wasnt for the majority.
So he may have mentioned the continuity of awareness as part of talking about something else (cos he's not going to LIE about it), or you may find it in his lack of denial of it.
I do remember tho some sutra about him saying he says consciousness neither continues/exists or doesn't, or some such.
Of course he was also famously silent on some topics. That doesnt mean he didnt know the answer. He could simply be avoiding distracting doctrines. Or even that he knew words could not capture it and would only create confusion.
FWIW its obvious to me there are only two choices:
continuity or utter extinguishment. If the latter, no need to spend your whole life on a path. Its neither helpful nor necessary
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Aaron Dorje
FWIW here are a few descriptions from the Pali about nirvana. Perhaps you can intuitively find reference to continuity here....
__________________________
"There is, monks, that state where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of the infinity of nothingness, no base consisting of the infinity of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, monks, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering."
__________
"There is, monks, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-formed. If, monks, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-formed, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, formed. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-formed, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, formed. "
__________
"Monks, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that..."
"Monks, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth... I will teach you the far shore... the subtle... the very difficult to see... the unaging... the stable... the undisintegrating... the unmanifest... the unproliferated... the peaceful... the deathless ... the sublime... the auspicious... the secure... the destruction of craving... the wonderful... the amazing... the unailing... the unailing state... Nirvana... the unafflicted... dispassion... purity... freedom... the unadhesive... the island... the shelter... the asylum... the refuge..”
__________
"Monks, this supreme state of sublime peace has been discovered by the Tathagata, that is, liberation through not clinging, by understanding as they actually are the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of the six bases of contact. Monks, that is the supreme state of sublime peace discovered by the Tathagata, that is, liberation through not clinging, by understanding as they actually are the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of the six bases of contact"
__________
"This good recluse or brahmin, with the relinquishing of views about the past and the future...regards himself thus: “I am at peace, I have attained Nirvana, I am without clinging.” Certainly this venerable one asserts the way directed to Nirvana. Yet this good recluse or brahmin still clings, clinging either to a view about the past or to a view about the future or to a fetter of sensual pleasure or to the rapture of seclusion or to unworldly pleasure or to the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. And when this venerable one regards himself thus:“I am at peace, I have attained Nirvana, I am without clinging” that too is declared to be clinging on the part of this good recluse or brahmin. That too is conditioned and gross, but there is cessation of formations.’ Having understood ‘There is this,’ seeing the escape from that, the Tathagata has gone beyond that."
__________
"This, monk, is a designation for the element of Nirvana: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in this way."
__________
"The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless: that right view... right concentration."
__________
The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the formed, the unlasting,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and cravingÂ’s cord -
That is not fit to take delight in.
The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned - bliss.
__________
The greatest of all gains is health,
Nirvana is the greatest bliss,
The eightfold path is the best of paths
For it leads safely to the Deathless
__________
Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light.
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.
When a sage, a brahmin, has come to know this
For himself through his own experience
Then he is freed from form and formlessness
Freed from pleasure and from pain.
__________
[Nirvana 'with remainder' and 'without remainder' (parinirvana):]
Monks, there are these two Nirvana-elements. What are the two? The Nirvana-element with residue left and the Nirvana-element with no residue left.
“What, monks, is the Nirvana-element with residue left? Here a monk is an arhat, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being and is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nirvana-element with residue left.
“Now what, monks, is the Nirvana-element with no residue left? Here a monk is an arhat... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, monks, is called the Nirvana-element with no residue left.
“These, monks, are the two Nirvana elements.
These two Nirvana elements were made known
By the Seeing One, serene and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.
Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dharma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving).
Those serene ones have abandoned all being."
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Robert Jarlaczyk
Author
thank you, that might be helpful ❤ 🙂
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aaron Dorje There's nothing in your quotes that affirms any sort of continuity though. These are negations - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-deathless-in...
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Even the "bliss" is a negation:
Ven: Sariputta: “Reverends, extinguishment (Nibbana) is bliss!
“sukhamidaṃ, āvuso, nibbānaṃ.
Ven. Udayi: “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“kiṃ panettha, āvuso sāriputta, sukhaṃ yadettha natthi vedayitan”ti?
Ven. Sariputta: “The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.
“Etadeva khvettha, āvuso, sukhaṃ yadettha natthi vedayitaṃ.
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Myriad Objects
On this topic, I really like Ñāna/Geoff’s take on things, from the dhammawheel forum, responding to someone arguing that Nibbāna = the cessation of experience in the Pāli suttas:
The Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya offers thirty-three epithet…
See more
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"this is why Mahayana considers arahat's cessation an extreme. you can refer to Malcolm's postings on dharmawheel as he wrote a lot on matters like these
"
This the extreme of cessation. Not acceptable in Mahāyāna as CW points out."
"Cessation is considered an extreme in Mahāyāna, an extreme to be avoided.
A cessation is not an annihilation however. A cessation is not annihilation since an annihilation requires an existent to be destroyed. A cessation is simply the absence of a cause for arising."
" Cessation is not annihilation. Analytical cessation is the absence of the arising of afflictions which continued birth in samsara due supermundane insight on the path of seeing and meditation. Nonanalytical cessation is is simple absence of a cause for arising, like a burnt seed.
Neither are annihilation."
At the end of ten thousand aeons, it is said,
The arhat wakes up from the state of cessation,
And enters the Mahayana path.
Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche
"
Nevertheless, since arhats have traces of ignorance, this is sufficient to maintain their continuums, albeit not as a birth in any of the three realms."
" No, they do have a problem with it, otherwise Asanga would not have written what he wrote. The fault is that śravakas enter into a mental body in a permanent cessation with no chance of escape without intervention. Otherwise, the yogacarins too would be at fault for accepting cessation as an extreme."
- https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=29127...
" No, the nature of any given mind stream itself is partless moments, hence, not eternal; but since these arhats will not arise from this samadhi of cessation without intervention, their samadhi is for all intents and purposes, permanent (but not eternal).
The nonabiding nirvana of a buddha means that the continuum of a buddha never ceases, all that ceases for them is the two obscurations."
"The Śṛī Mālādevi Sūtra points out that arhats and pratyekabuddhas, as well as bodhisattvas, have not in fact abandoned all afflictions.
“O Lord, arhats and pratyekabuddhas are afraid. Because these arhats
and pratyekabuddhas still have not extinguished their lives, these [psychophysical
forces] continue. They have not completed the practice of purity, and so
remain impure. Because their actions are not ultimate, they still have actions
to perform. Because they have not reached that [final stage], they still have
defilements that should be severed. Because these are not severed, one is far
from the realm of nirvana...The inconceivable death
of transformation [for a purpose] refers to the mind-made bodies of the arhats,
pratyekabuddhas, and greatly powerful bodhisattvas until the time of their
supreme, complete enlightenment.
Pg. 24, https://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files ... ode&id=480"
" No, since the Lankavatara points out that arhats are roused from an equipoise of cessation and then set on the bodhisattva path, their motivation now redirected towards full buddhahood.
Ekayāna does not mean that everyone has the same motivation; it means that despite the three kinds of bodhicitta formed as a cause, all paths lead to full buddhahood (with a little intervention required in the case of arhats and pratyekabuddhas)."
" There are also arhats in the pure abodes, not just nonreturners.
In any case, the Mahāyāna definition supersedes the Hinayāna definition since it is a higher tenet system.
The ultimate of the lower system
is the relative of the higher.
Śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas are not buddha arhats. It is a simple as that. They simply experience a temporary relief from samsara, but mistake the equipoise of cessation for actual nirvana."
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=32880...
" When the series of aggregates driven by afflictions ceases because the afflictions are uprooted and there is no more birth in the three realms (because there is no more birth), this is the extreme of cessation referred to when in Mahayana we refer to samsara and nirvana as extremes. We don’t accept this as the goal of the path, but it is fruitless to deny that this is very much the desired goal of shravakas."
...
Not with me. I was merely pointing out that my perspective is not Hinayāna; while presenting evidence the Sautrāntikas (the higher tenet system) regard nirvana to be unreal, in contrast with the Sarvāstivādins (the lower tenet system), who assert it is real, and further, clarifying why it is that Mahāyāna regards the śrāvaka cessation to be an extreme, because it represents an aspiration for total cessation, doing away with all dharmas."
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
<-- in short, the Mahayana view of arhat is that their continuums are maintained, but they are 'residing' in an 'extreme of cessation' which Bodhisattvas do not fall into, and furthermore these arahats will be roused from cessation by a Buddha at a distant future to continue their path to Buddhahood.
But I doubt you can find any pali suttas supporting such views. It is purely from Mahayana texts.
1
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Quoted texts above from Malcolm.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Might be wrong to say that some Theravadins hold 'annihilation' views. https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=32880...
tobes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:50 am
What's in dispute: the claim that there is literally nothing at all from that point; total annihilation, nothingness, non-existence. i.e. you go beyond the 4 jhanas into absolute death.
Malcolm:
Not annihilation, absolute cessation of the continuum of the aggregates. What else could it be, if there is nothing else apart from the aggregates upon which an a self is imputed.
Peter Harvey, in Selfless Persons, argues that an unconditioned consciousness continues, but he is not a classical shravaka, and does not cite classical shravakas sources which confirm his ideas. He bases his argument, as far as I recall, On some very elusive passages in the Pali suttas. But the sautrantikas still argue that nirvana is unreal, whether you like it or not. Not only this, but everyone who has ever written a book on the subject of the four tenet systems in India and Tibet also confirms this fact.
tobes:
There has been no dispute at all, from my side, about the proposition that Shravaka cessation = absolute cessation of the aggregates.
What has been in dispute is that this implies/entails a state of nothingness, extinction, annihilation. Unreality does not imply those things, as you concede. So I'm happy we agree on this point.
As far as Peter Harvey goes, this also seems like a stretch to me, but I would need to see how he is using the term consciousness.
Malcolm:
There isn’t any annihilation, because a cessation necessarily entails that no ceased entity’s nonexistence can be properly described. It’s a contradiction in terms to speak of the nonexistence of something which never existed at all, since it never arose. For example the shoot of a burnt seed.
...
No, I am saying that a cessation is necessarily a nonarising, for example, the shoot of a burnt seed.
Where is ‘Mind’? - Page 8 - Dharma Wheel
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Where is ‘Mind’? - Page 8 - Dharma Wheel
Where is ‘Mind’? - Page 8 - Dharma Wheel
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Robert Jarlaczyk
" eternal continuation"
Although, you should be careful not to fall into eternalist views, but you probably already know this.
Malcolm: "" No, the nature of any given mind stream itself is partless moments, hence, not eternal;"
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../clarification...
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I understand. All awarenesses are conditioned. There is no such thing as a universal undifferentiated ultimate awareness in Buddhadharma. Even the omniscience of a Buddha arises from a cause.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
isn't this cause, too, an object of awareness? Isn't there awareness of this cause? If awareness of this cause is awareness itself, then isn't this awareness of awareness? What causes awareness of awareness, if not awareness?
If awareness is the cause of awareness, isn't it its own cause?
Malcolm wrote:
Omniscience is the content of a mind freed of afflictions. Even the continuum of a Buddha has a relative ground, i.e. a the rosary or string of moments of clarity is beginingless.
Origination from self is axiomatically negated in Buddhadharma,
Each moment in the continuum of a knowing clarity is neither the same as nor different than the previous moment. Hence the cause of a given instant of a knowing clarity cannot be construed to be itself nor can it be construed to be other than itself. This is the only version of causation which, in the final analysis, Buddhadharma can admit to on a relative level. It is the logical consequence of the Buddha's insight, "When this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
I am not referring to cognition, rather, the causes of that cognition.
Malcolm wrote:
Cognitions arise based on previous cognitions. That's all.
If you suggest anything other than this, you wind up in Hindu La la land.
Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as a universal undifferentiated ultimate awareness in Buddhadharma.
Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm
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