‎[23/3/16, 8:13:14 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
[23/3/16, 8:33:22 AM] John Tan: More towards the +A.  Not so much on the -A imo.
[23/3/16, 8:54:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[23/3/16, 9:42:14 AM] John Tan: Actually what he wrote r all the +A from realizing reality has always non-dual and nothing is or can "presents".   Mere presence is exactly the capacity and the presentation as such no one presenting and nothing presented.  

The mind never fails to create a "ghostly image" behind appearances be it karma, capacity, symbols as something behind hidden.  Is there anything hidden at all or dualistic misperception has prevented us from seeing and tasting the obviousness directly.  If you purge away "ghostly images", then there is only obviousness and aliveness everywhere.  Duality of capacity to give rise to appearances and appearances itself dissolve.  In the realm of suchness, it is altogether a different mode of "perception".  

It is full, direct and intimate living.  Every engagement must be total and complete...and therefore in engagement, there is only the engagement and in the seen, there is only the seen.  You must learn to reclaim your birthright and primordial facility.  Feel fully with entirety body-mind.  Forget self and Smell the air...hear the drum beats of the foot steps, feel the vibration of the moving train...live fully!

[27/3/16, 8:02:59 AM] John Tan: Intensity arises when self dissolves and one becomes a living expression.  Clear, vibrant and spontaneous expression.  U don't think because is replaced by unconditioned intelligence.  When  dealing with our true nature that is free of all artificialities and conventions, it is not only non-attachment but more importantly, the nature of unconditioned suchness is fully expressed and lived.

[27/3/16, 5:48:10 PM] John Tan: There r 2 -A aspects of "emptiness" that stand out quite strongly when contemplating the emptiness of phenomena in my experience.

1.  The non-arising nature of suchness.  There is no true arising, duration and cessation of appearance freeing one from the proliferation of production and cessation.
2. Illusion-like experience

When contemplating the "redness" of a flower and asked "where" is this redness? Is it on the "flower"? Where is the "flower" besides as an empty convention reified as "entity".   Where is the vivid "redness"?  Look at the vivid color...so clear and real but where is it?

Similarly contemplating the dependent origination and emptiness of a beautiful piece of music.  The former note does not meet the current note yet a beautiful music is produced. Where is this music?  Do not attempt to think of its whereabout but "feel" the whereabout...

There will come a time this mirage like experience of phenomena is brought into actual taste upon the immanent presence itself.  Here but never truly here..vividly present but no where to b found...do not think abt it but as a living first person visceral taste of this illusion-like nature of whatever arises...indestructibly vajra not by being powerful, but by being not-real (-A).

[28/3/16, 11:27:27 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Hi Soh, this is a talk given about Kuan-Yin's path to enlightenment. It covers more than half of what I was saying. I'm working on a book and I just found this site.
http://www.baus.org/en/?p=143

- James
[28/3/16, 11:28:49 PM] Soh Wei Yu: "Suppose that someone rings a bell. If he then asks if the bell is ringing, one would answer affirmatively. If he were to ask the same question after the ringing had faded away, one would answer in the negative. Here, language is well in accord with what has actually taken place, for the sound of the bell has, in fact, arisen and subsided. But now, if the bell is made to ring again and the question posed is “Can you hear something?” the situation becomes quite different. While the affirmative answer made while the bell continues to ring would still be correct, the same cannot be said of the negative response given when the ringing has ceased. It is true that one no longer hears the bell, but one can still hear. Even if one is aware of no sound at all, it is precisely by using the sense of hearing that one is aware of silence. So it is clear that while sound just comes and goes, the same is not true of our innate nature to hear. This aspect of hearing, which hears transient sounds, but does not itself change, is what is called the innate nature to hear in Buddhist terminology.
The examples given above serve to illustrate the difference between sound and the nature to hear. Sound arises and ceases without lingering for even a moment. It is impermanent. The nature to hear, on the other hand, is always present; it neither arises nor ceases. Even a deaf man possesses the nature to hear, but due to other impairments he cannot hear sounds."
[28/3/16, 11:29:11 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sounds no different from Advaita discriminating the changeless from the changing
[28/3/16, 11:29:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[28/3/16, 11:29:34 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Or Lzls yi jue bu yi xin cos awareness is changeless and mind is changing
[28/3/16, 11:32:14 PM] John Tan: That is dualistic
[28/3/16, 11:38:56 PM] John Tan: How do u change it to ur understanding?
[28/3/16, 11:52:01 PM] Soh Wei Yu: There is no awareness besides mind, hearing besides sound
[28/3/16, 11:54:37 PM] John Tan: If u continue to think this way, u will not see DO And emptiness.
[28/3/16, 11:58:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. How should I understand it?
[28/3/16, 11:59:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sound appears due to conditions, never truly arise?
[29/3/16, 12:01:35 AM] John Tan: What sort of logic is that
[29/3/16, 12:02:02 AM] John Tan: Appears due to conditions so nvr truly arise?
[29/3/16, 12:07:15 AM] Soh Wei Yu: More like it never attained the status status of independent existence. What is originating in dependence does not exist on its own that could have lifespan, like if two blocks support each other, it's not that two standing blocks are "created". They are only appearing or originating in dependence. When this is, that is, when this is not, that is not. When seeing scenery, the seeing/scenery originates in dependence and could never stand on its own apart from conditions
[29/3/16, 12:08:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: There is no inherently existing or fixed "standing block"
[29/3/16, 12:13:09 AM] John Tan: Why isn't this orgination?
[29/3/16, 12:14:03 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Origination means it has inherent existence and could sustain its own existence on its own for a period of time before ceasing to exist after some time
[29/3/16, 12:14:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: There is simply no self sustaining Essence, only dependently originating appearance/phenomena
[29/3/16, 12:15:19 AM] John Tan: First u must know there r many unexamined assumptions
[29/3/16, 12:16:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What assumptions?
[29/3/16, 12:19:34 AM] John Tan: There can only arising, duration and cessation when an "essence" can b found.
[29/3/16, 12:20:23 AM] John Tan: But u may think u hv gone through thorough enough to know abt essencelessness
[29/3/16, 12:21:57 AM] John Tan: Saying whatever originates in dependence does not originate, abide and cease does not mean u hv understood anything.
[29/3/16, 12:22:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 12:24:07 AM] John Tan: The teaching starts with a sincere heart in looking for an essence but can't b found under ultimate analysis though in appearance, phenomena appear solid.
[29/3/16, 12:27:44 AM] John Tan: The first actual taste of the profound teaching of essencelessness is from the insight of anatta.  However the taste is far from mature realisation of the meaning of non-arising and empty nature of phenomena.
[29/3/16, 12:30:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 12:30:58 AM] John Tan: So if u do not see essencelessness deep enough, u won't b able to "feel"  essencelessness
[29/3/16, 12:32:45 AM] John Tan: There when someone says a bell is ringing, it only sounds logical conventionally, not ultimately.
[29/3/16, 12:43:41 AM] John Tan: For in ultimate sense, neither bell nor sound can b found when sought.
[29/3/16, 12:43:56 AM] John Tan: And what does that mean?
[29/3/16, 12:44:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Bell is labelled based on the sound, the Colours, the function
[29/3/16, 12:44:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No bell can be found
[29/3/16, 12:45:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Sound is labelled in dependence on hearing, hitting, etc
[29/3/16, 12:46:36 AM] John Tan: Like the example u gave once, these texts I m typing scrolls up and down seem to appear and disappear.  The texts seem to hide below window and when scrolled upward appears to re-surface from below the window.
[29/3/16, 12:47:22 AM] John Tan: But in ultimate sense, there is no text hidden below the chat window.
[29/3/16, 12:48:18 AM] John Tan: But that is in ultimate sense, not conventional sense.
[29/3/16, 12:49:12 AM] John Tan: So in ultimate sense, there is nothing truly arise, abide and cease.
[29/3/16, 12:49:33 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 12:58:15 AM] John Tan: So bringing this into actual taste (as first person), what is this telling u? In anatta, what is it telling u and how it feels like?
[29/3/16, 3:40:51 AM] Soh Wei Yu: In Anatta one is freed from the ghostly image of inherent existence and directly taste the appearance.. Likewise for non arising one taste the nature of appearance as empty clarity free from Essence, coming, going
[29/3/16, 3:41:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta tells you there is no ghost or inherent existence to awareness besides seen, heard, smell
[29/3/16, 7:59:02 AM] John Tan: U no need to work?
[29/3/16, 7:59:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Need to work
[29/3/16, 7:59:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Woke up in the middle of the night lol
[29/3/16, 7:59:45 AM] John Tan: Lol
[29/3/16, 8:02:21 AM] John Tan: Free from the inherent existence of self...not free from inherent existence
[29/3/16, 8:14:35 AM] John Tan: Yes allowing one to directly taste the transience and realize these transience (color, sound, thoughts, sensations, scent) that we shunt away is the very suchness.  So don't look elsewhere for suchness.

Sound, sensations, colors, form, scent...all these transience phenomena...they r like the texts being scrolled up and down, appears to come and go...but in ultimate sense, understand that they do not truly arise, abide and cease.   That is the non-arising and empty nature of suchness.

It is fully understanding these evanescence appearances without  having the need to resort back to a linking essence that is difficult.
[29/3/16, 8:15:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 8:16:55 AM] John Tan: There is some true existence hearing nature is the problem...for that is precisely the cause of duality.
[29/3/16, 8:17:07 AM] John Tan: And cause of suffering.
[29/3/16, 8:22:44 AM] John Tan: If one needs to establish "sound" to b "here", to b "now" or to have firm establishment any hearing nature separate from sound....that is stressful, not liberating.
[29/3/16, 8:26:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 8:28:16 AM] John Tan: Freedom comes from directly experiencing the empty and non-arising nature of appearances in real time...not needing an Essence ground is the releasing factor.
[29/3/16, 8:41:11 AM] John Tan: The key issue is most do not know the way of essencelessness.  It is directly opposite of "holding"...rather it is just full and unreserved opening...complete welcoming
[29/3/16, 8:45:18 AM] John Tan: Even u after conceptually understood...even after initially taste of selflessness and the insight of anatta, there is no release.  The karmic tendency of holding on to an essence has infiltrated into every aspect of our thoughts, manifested in our every action, imprinted into every cell.
[29/3/16, 8:46:48 AM] John Tan: The body must b opened up too in addition to just dissolving reified mental constructs.

Also see:

• Conventional Validity and Causal Efficacy
• Don't Neglect the Conventional

John Tan

S0h1hao7m4fl6s93orltm  ·
Ok enough of blahing for few weeks, this will be my last post.
For those who conclude mmk denies causal efficacy,
they have unknowingly fallen into the essentialist view of "true existence". Mmk only teaches if cause and effect exist essentially, then casuality is untenable and impossible.
Therefore don't just say "ultimately causality, self and phenomena are empty" but deeply understand:
In anatta, there is action without agent.
In prasangika, action is performed by empty agent.
As such "empty wars" kill, "empty self" suffers, empty self takes rebirth and only empty things have causal relations.
That is y Nagasena can be ferried by an "empty chariot".
Hence, don't neglect the imagined and experience the wonderment of seeing emptiness of the conventional.
An early Happy New Year to all and happy journey to all my dharma friends!

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William Lim
Nice blahing!
More empty blahing in the new year please.

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Yin Ling
So good. Why is the last post

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Geovani Geo
Starting from where the 'usual' man stands: All things are mind. There is not s single event/thing/no-thing that is not in the mind brought in by the senses. So, what are 'things, 'distance', 'weight' or 'mass'? Nothing but a breeze, a hazy appearance, a dream. Nothing. And, what is 'mind' and 'senses'? Likewise, nothing. When the mind is nothing, everything is nothing, beyond 'is' or 'is not'.
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
~ Shakespeare ~
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Geovani Geo
And:
“At no time throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes has there ever been an actual birth. There has only been the appearance of birth. There has never been actual death, only the transformation of appearances like the shift from the dream state to the waking state . . . throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes there has never been any actual experience of transition or going from one state to another, or any actual experience of being located in some other place. This is analogous to the images in a dream.”
~ Longchenpa
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John Tan
Geovani Geo there is no need to worry about birth and death ultimately but that is quite useless if we do not know about the conventional that we r trapped. Even empty words sets the mind spinning and emotional obturations in motion.
We thought all along only truly existence things can initiate action and this is misknowledge and confusion; rather it is empty phenomena that r imaginary and non-existence entities setting things in motion. It is this imaginary entity that is experiencing karma and that is how the karma works and as long as we r not Buddha, it will continue endlessly. For the benefit of u as a sincere practitioner. Anyway I will be away for quite some time. Enjoy the ride and happy new year.
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John Tan
Geovani Geo what u quoted must go hand in hand with this:
Longchenpa on Nihilism
From Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind.
Those who scorn the law of karmic cause and fruit
Are students of the nihilist view outside the Dharma.
They rely on the thought that all is void;
They fall in the extreme of nothingness
And go from higher to lower states.
They have embarked on an evil path
And from the evil destinies will have no freedom,
Casting happy states of being far away.
”The law of karmic cause and fruit,
Compassion and the gathering of merit -
All this is but provisional teaching fit for children:
Enlightenment will not be gained thereby.
Great yogis should remain without intentional action.
They should meditate upon reality that is like space.
Such is the definitive instruction.”
The view of those who speak like this
Of all views is the most nihilist:
They have embraced the lowest of all paths.
How strange is this!
They want a fruit but have annulled its cause.
If reality is but a space-like void,
What need is there to meditate?
And if it is not so, then even if one meditates
Such efforts are to no avail.
If meditation on mere voidness leads to liberation,
Even those with minds completely blank
Attain enlightenment!
But since those people have asserted meditation,
Cause and its result they thus establish!
Throw far away such faulty paths as these!
The true, authentic path asserts
The arising in dependence of both cause and fruit,
The natural union of skillful means and wisdom.
Through the causality of nonexistent but appearing acts,
Through meditation on the nonexistent but appearing path,
The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest.
Such is pure causality’s profound interdependence.
This is the essential pith
Of all the Sutra texts whose meaning is definitive
And indeed of all the tantras.
Through the joining of the two accumulations,
The generation and completion stages,
Perfect buddhahood is swiftly gained.
Thus all the causal processes
Whereby samsara is contrived should be abandoned,
And all acts that are the cause of liberation
Should be earnestly performed.
High position in samsara
And the final excellence of buddhahood
Will speedily be gained.
- Finding Rest in the Nature of Mind (vol 1)
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Geovani Geo
John, yes, the whole story of movement and volition is in the imaginary realm. We where used to look at 'things' and 'events' as if outside, mistake which is the triggering of samsara. Things and events have no basis, no ground. How funny: if we touch the empty lucid factor that leads to the equalness of all appearances, we are unable to find such factor.
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Geovani Geo
"The fruit is gained, appearing and yet nonexistent;
And for the sake of nonexistent but appearing beings,
Enlightened acts, appearing and yet nonexistent, manifest."
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John Tan
Geovani Geo yes therefore understanding imagined non-existence things having no basis and no ground is not yet even half the journey. For authenticatic path and right understanding and "speedily be gained" as longchenpa said, read the text above by him line by line otherwise one falls into nihilism.
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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Yin Ling

Book recommendation for post anatta:

"john tan commented after reading [redditor who recently realised anatta, Mr. JKB] msgs:

[24/12/21, 1:44:08 AM] John Tan: Next he must understand freedom from all elaborations.

[24/12/21, 9:24:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. any books u think he should start on?

[24/12/21, 9:26:30 AM] John Tan: Not easy, it will be too difficult for him to read mmk. The reason is mmk is not strictly written for the modern ppl but to refute the other buddhist schools and philosophers.

[24/12/21, 9:47:10 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic but what to start on? I think greg goode recommended dalai lama how to see yourself as you really are as starter

‎[24/12/21, 9:55:28 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

‎[24/12/21, 9:55:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

‎[24/12/21, 9:55:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

‎[24/12/21, 9:55:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted

[24/12/21, 10:36:40 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe i shld introduce mipham books to him too? Beacon of certainty?

[24/12/21, 10:44:11 AM] John Tan: Yes but will still need to sort out a lot for him. Anatta is just the beginning so it is not easy to understand at a single go. If we do not read the teachings of great masters like Mipham and Tsongkhapa's with a reverent mind, we will be frequently doing "spiritual bypassing" in our reading colored by insights of anatta.

[24/12/21, 10:44:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[24/12/21, 10:44:58 AM] Soh Wei Yu: For tsongkhapa which books you recommend?

[24/12/21, 10:51:18 AM] John Tan: It is even more difficult to understand Tsongkhapa if ur anatta isn't matured enough to penetrate deeply into the conventional and that includes understanding the energy system of ur body in his tantra teachings. It is more advisable and much more intuitive to progress one's insight from anatta to freedom from all elaborations into spontaneous presence.

[24/12/21, 10:53:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[24/12/21, 11:08:29 AM] John Tan: ‎This message was deleted.

[24/12/21, 11:14:35 AM] John Tan: There r books all around about gelug's teaching of emptiness as mmk is dominated by gelug's interpretation. It is how u "feel" the heart of his teachings. The only problem I feel is his rejection of "freedom from all elaborations" which imo is a "pivotal insight" as he felt it is dangerous illustrate the view, path, result the way those sudden schools of enlightenment present it as evidenced by those non-dual junkies in FB . This is not to say he knows nothing abt it. He is just too compassionate and put great effort in making his teachings systematic, logical and step by step without compromising "selflessness", it is a transformative and developmental approach towards liberation.

There r many good books that tell u clearly how appearances should be understood and how non-dual experiences are like for Tsongkhapa. "The two truths debate" (Soh: can refer to this article for a short excerpt: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../tsongkhapas... ) will be a good read if u want to understand the non-dual experiences of the gelug. "Self, reality and reason in Tibetan philosophy" is also good. But I think they did not present the freedom of all elaborations correctly or, lots of bias same applies to other books. That is y if u do not read with a reverent heart, u will not gain anything and simply "bypass".

[24/12/21, 6:02:47 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

xabir Snoovatar

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../book...

https://www.amazon.com.au/.../B00.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0...

"

Also for a general overview of Mipham's teachings, can read https://www.amazon.com/Jamgon-Mipam-His.../dp/1590306694 which is also good

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Tsongkhapa's Epistemic Nonduality

Tsongkhapa's Epistemic Nonduality

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John Tan: I think u have read enough of books and u already have the books needed to refine your understandings post anatta. 

From anatta-->deconstruction of both mind and phenomena into empty appearances as one's radiance clarity-->freedom from all elaborations (mmk)-->spontaneous presence

What u lack is the nuances of anatta in actual experience that is difficult to tell as the energy system differs for each person and can only be known by that individual when he tasted it.  Otherwise u just actualize through the 6 parimatas.

Find out what diet combinations help u detox so that your inner organs become healthy and less inflammatory + deep restful sleep.  U have to understand what is most crucial is the evenness of non-dual at the moment of sleep and the moment…

Soh: Oic..
[12:20 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When u say "Cause and effect are empty but not a rejection of dependent origination", do u know what it means? (Soh: from Don't Neglect the Conventional)
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Y do u like to cut and put our conversations in other forums for what?
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: A simple answer just answer Ur own

Soh: Oic..
Cause and effect are empty doesnt mean they are nonexistent
But they are dependent designations.. like father and son (Soh: see Relationship Between Father and Son and Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect). So it is not inherent cause and inherent production. Like chariot and parts are also dependent designations.. awareness and object of awareness.. and so on. In freedom from proliferation, awareness and object of awareness, cause and effect are all emptied into nondual suchness.. but in terms of relative they are expressed as dependent designations. Father and son, consciousness and object of consciousness and so on are neither same nor different, merely dependently designated and empty
In terms of relative the seeing of dependent designation also allows penetrating into total exertion
Freedom from proliferation is more like -A

John Tan: Yes also Like cup or self, although these r conceptual notions however they have conventional validity.  There is no "cup" or "self" are empty and non-arisen, but there r conventional validity in that there is a functioning purpose.  Cause and effect serves their purpose this way linking the conventions.

Soh: Oic.. like that time malcolm mentioned,

Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.


...

No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.
[10:27 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Lol yeah
[10:28 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When we neglect all these, we become nihilistic.
[10:29 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: What the non prasangika don't understand is they thought there must be real referent in order to have causal efficacy.
Soh: Ic..
[10:31 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Even in objective science, gravity explains perfectly the man-size John Tan: Newtonian world but there is no "gravity" as a force pulling any object as explained in relativity.
[10:33 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Like fiat money is empty but moves the world.
Soh: Oic..
John Tan: And it is precisely that because the conventional r empty of any essential nature, such causal relationships r possible, inherent and truly existing things can't.