John Tan: I think u have read enough of books and u already have the books needed to refine your understandings post anatta. 

From anatta-->deconstruction of both mind and phenomena into empty appearances as one's radiance clarity-->freedom from all elaborations (mmk)-->spontaneous presence

What u lack is the nuances of anatta in actual experience that is difficult to tell as the energy system differs for each person and can only be known by that individual when he tasted it.  Otherwise u just actualize through the 6 parimatas.

Find out what diet combinations help u detox so that your inner organs become healthy and less inflammatory + deep restful sleep.  U have to understand what is most crucial is the evenness of non-dual at the moment of sleep and the moment…

Soh: Oic..
[12:20 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When u say "Cause and effect are empty but not a rejection of dependent origination", do u know what it means? (Soh: from Don't Neglect the Conventional)
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Y do u like to cut and put our conversations in other forums for what?
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: A simple answer just answer Ur own

Soh: Oic..
Cause and effect are empty doesnt mean they are nonexistent
But they are dependent designations.. like father and son (Soh: see Relationship Between Father and Son and Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect). So it is not inherent cause and inherent production. Like chariot and parts are also dependent designations.. awareness and object of awareness.. and so on. In freedom from proliferation, awareness and object of awareness, cause and effect are all emptied into nondual suchness.. but in terms of relative they are expressed as dependent designations. Father and son, consciousness and object of consciousness and so on are neither same nor different, merely dependently designated and empty
In terms of relative the seeing of dependent designation also allows penetrating into total exertion
Freedom from proliferation is more like -A

John Tan: Yes also Like cup or self, although these r conceptual notions however they have conventional validity.  There is no "cup" or "self" are empty and non-arisen, but there r conventional validity in that there is a functioning purpose.  Cause and effect serves their purpose this way linking the conventions.

Soh: Oic.. like that time malcolm mentioned,

Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.


No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.

[10:27 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Lol yeah
[10:28 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When we neglect all these, we become nihilistic.
[10:29 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: What the non prasangika don't understand is they thought there must be real referent in order to have causal efficacy.
Soh: Ic..
[10:31 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Even in objective science, gravity explains perfectly the man-size John Tan: Newtonian world but there is no "gravity" as a force pulling any object as explained in relativity.
[10:33 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Like fiat money is empty but moves the world.
Soh: Oic..
John Tan: And it is precisely that because the conventional r empty of any essential nature, such causal relationships r possible, inherent and truly existing things can't.

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