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• Soh Wei Yu

  

  Chris Jones

  You know I always throw the 80% I AM, 15% One Mind Nondual, 2% or less anatta/emptiness estimate by myself (admittedly I haven't done a very methodical study) which is purely based on my own estimate

  My guess, again based purely on impressions, is that LU is somewhat like 80% impersonality, maybe 10-20% have gone through I AM, 10% have one mind sort of nondual, and maybe 1-2% are closer to anatta.

  But for you, if you can even experience impersonality that is good, since that is one of the four aspects of I AM that will be your next step. For example, when John Wheeler wrote this article, he was only experiencing the 'impersonality' aspect of no-self + I AM realization, so that no-self spoken in there is about impersonality, nothing more, he wasn't even clear about nondual yet: https://awakeningclaritynow.com/awakening-to-the-natural.../ -- yet he clearly delineated the two insights (I AM and impersonality) as both different yet crucial and complementary to his understanding and breakthrough.

  I suppose some do have anatta sort of insight from LU and ruthless truth but it is a minority. Hale Oh said he realised anatta in LU, and prior to that he was at the I AM phase.

  Liberation Unleashed was the offshoot of Ruthless Truth, exactly same approach also, so these comments apply:

  Session Start: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011

  (11:14 PM) Thusness: Don't over promote ruthlesstruth

  many of the blue status aren't anatta

  and that is not the way to teach

  (11:45 PM) AEN: oic..

  yeah

  i do notice that many have not realized anatta

  oic

  why is it not the way to teach

  (11:46 PM) Thusness: what are they teaching?

  everything isn't clear

  how is it that u intro ppl this site here and there

  instead of leading ppl to the right path with the right view

  there are so many good buddhist sites with right teaching

  (11:47 PM) AEN: oic..

  (11:48 PM) Thusness: some don't even have non-dual

  and all these over claiming

  don't mislead ppl

  (11:48 PM) AEN: ic..

  (11:49 PM) Thusness: how things manifest is not clear

  anatta not clear

  non-dual not clear

  (11:49 PM) Thusness: there is not even experience of I AM

  (11:49 PM) AEN: oic

  yeah they dont talk about I AM

  i think its a mix of ppl in impersonality, non dual, and anatta

  i mean the site

  (11:50 PM) Thusness: not only that...there is no clear insight

  so don't anyhow claim about enlightenment

  and lead ppl to enlightenment

  (11:50 PM) AEN: but i think there are some who are clear about anatta there

  though not as many as they claimed

  (11:50 PM) Thusness: worst still overclaiming that insight of anatta arises

  this is pure nonsense

  what anatta...?

  din i tell u experience of no-mind is not anatta?

  (11:51 PM) AEN: oic

  yeah ciaran isn't talking about an experience though

  (11:52 PM) Thusness: from a scale of 1-10, i don't even rate it a 2

  don't anyhow intro ppl... that will only mislead ppl

  (11:52 PM) AEN: ic..

  (11:52 PM) Thusness: not even AF

  (11:52 PM) AEN: oic..

  (11:53 PM) Thusness: there is no short cut

  don't get mixed up and confuse

  out of 10 questions asked about anatta, i don't think they can pass even 1

  (11:54 PM) AEN: what qns

  (11:55 PM) Thusness: lead them to the right buddhist site

  (11:55 PM) AEN: oic

  but in terms of anatta not exactly a lot of buddhist sites have great clarity either

  (11:55 PM) Thusness: there is mahamudra

  u mean ruthlesstruth has clarity?

  (11:55 PM) AEN: not really

  (11:55 PM) Thusness: then?

  anatta must be understood with DO

  (11:56 PM) AEN: oic

  (11:56 PM) Thusness: don't create Buddha

  u r mis-representing buddhism

  I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha

  how is anatta the end of path?

  din i tell u it is only the beginning stage

  and from a scale of 1-10 in the bhumis, what has one understood?

  (12:00 AM) Thusness: understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning or rightly understanding liberation

  (12:02 AM) AEN: oic..

  (12:03 AM) Thusness: also do not give ppl the impression that anatta is the end of path

  (12:04 AM) AEN: ic..

  (12:05 AM) Thusness: also the releasing is still not there

  as for u, release ur contraction

  ur latent tendencies are still strong

  despite ur realization

  (12:06 AM) AEN: oic..

  means sense of self?

  (12:07 AM) Thusness: ur mind and body

  u r unable to let go non-dually

  means ur latent inherent tendencies are still very strong

  (12:07 AM) AEN: oic..

  (12:08 AM) Thusness: sit and let go of ur entire mind and body

  meet conditions and let go

  when u answer ur parents, treat it as a form of practice too

  smile in ur heart

  and be patient

  (12:10 AM) Thusness: after realization, meditate on the 6 entries and exits

  feel that whatever arises is primordially pure

  then allow it to meet daily matters...

  see how it arises...and understand the latent deep

  that is then true practice

  (12:11 AM) AEN: oic..

  letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...

  (12:15 AM) Thusness: no

  that is completely wrong

  after anatta, u r able to experience whatever arises directly

  feel wholely

  (12:17 AM) AEN: yea

  (12:17 AM) Thusness: yet u are still contracting

  ur entire body is imprinted to hold

  (12:17 AM) AEN: oic

  (12:18 AM) Thusness: letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go

  (12:19 AM) AEN: ic..

  (12:19 AM) Thusness: means ur body and mind must let go

  by its own accord, non-dually

  not by disassociation

  practice this

  (12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

  (12:21 AM) Thusness: ur mind, ur thoughts, ur body

  without ground, without center, without essence

  like painting on a pond

  u understand theoretically but not in direct experience

  (12:22 AM) AEN: how is what i said previously wrong

  (12:22 AM) Thusness: there is realization but experience is still on the surface

  (12:22 AM) AEN: think its the same thing..

  oic

  (12:22 AM) Thusness: is ur body releasing?

  (12:23 AM) Thusness is now Offline

  (12:25 AM) AEN: it feels like any 'i' or anything is dissolving into just the universe... and not only that the entire universe is dissolving, gone each moment

  (12:25 AM) Thusness is now Online

  (12:25 AM) Thusness: is ur mind is in state of perpetual releasing?

  (12:26 AM) AEN: i wouldnt say perpetual... like every moment of my life i guess... but its like kind of normal

  (12:26 AM) Thusness: no

  now u r only without background

  but not releasing

  (12:27 AM) AEN: oic

  (12:27 AM) Thusness: ur experience is direct, vivid and clear

  but not releasing

  (12:27 AM) AEN: ic..

  (12:28 AM) Thusness: experience is spontaneous but not releasing

  that is different

  spontaneous because DO, but if latent tendencies are there, what arises in like it a perpetual holding mode

  (12:29 AM) Thusness: just like an arising thought, there is no one behind

  but that 'thought' is attachment

  is holding

  (12:29 AM) AEN: oic..

  (12:29 AM) Thusness: get it?

  like ur attachment to forum...

  now there are 2 ways

  one is disassociation, one is letting go due to its nature

  when i told u to let go, initially we do it by way of disassociation

  even after arising insight of anatta, we still do it that way

  but we understand what it meant

  however in most of the time, releasing and letting go is still very much dualistic
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Soh Wei Yu

(12:33 AM) AEN: oic..
what is letting go dualistically
means there is aversion?
or trying to tune things out?
(12:34 AM) Thusness: u may think ur letting go is natural, but it is not
it is still a form of dis-association
when u hear music, listen
and experience how it disappear...like painting on the surface of a pond
slowly dissolve into tracelessness
as itself and by itself dissolve into tracelessness
(12:37 AM) AEN: ic..
(12:38 AM) Thusness: when u breath...train urself to be in tune with the flow
ur thoughts
(12:39 AM) AEN: oic
(12:40 AM) Thusness: ur body and ur mind must be in state of perpetual releasing
this is very important
(12:40 AM) AEN: means everything is like gone and everything is fresh without clinging to a previous moment?
(12:41 AM) Thusness: don't worry about being fresh
(12:41 AM) AEN: ic..
(12:42 AM) Thusness: means phenomena itself is releasing
mental states
body
mind
whatever arises
(12:42 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:45 AM) Thusness: now ur experience is still very skewed towards intensity of luminosity
feels experiencing directly and wholely
(12:46 AM) AEN: ic..
(12:47 AM) Thusness: like i told u about the mandala, vivid and clear...then gone
although u understand, u have not experienced clearly yet
(12:48 AM) AEN: its similar to what i said right 'letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...'
(12:48 AM) Thusness: no
(12:49 AM) Thusness: when u experienced, u will not be writing this way
why do u worry about the universe?
(12:50 AM) AEN: for example if i am walking on the street... there isnt a perception even of moving from one location to another... in fact there is not even a perception of there being a universe... its utterly empty and self-releasing... nothing i can pin down
(12:51 AM) Thusness: why universe?
why do u worry so much about the universe?
(12:52 AM) AEN: yeah.. thats what i mean
there isnt a universe
(12:52 AM) Thusness: so why mention about it?
(12:53 AM) AEN: cos prior to this the universe still does have a tinge of appearing solid.. like its 'there'... but now that cant be said
(12:54 AM) Thusness: it is not experience becoming dream-like
i mean saying the releasing
did u experience that releasing?
(12:56 AM) AEN: if u mean everything is gone every moment and nothing solid there then yes... but if u mean something else then i dunno
(12:56 AM) Thusness: no i am not referring to nothing solid...i am telling u the releasing
(12:56 AM) AEN: oic
(12:57 AM) Thusness: ai yoh...
u know what is releasing or not
the feeling of letting go...
(12:57 AM) AEN: is it like the tranquilising of body and mind that i talked about
(12:57 AM) Thusness: do u have that feeling of letting go
not stillness
(12:58 AM) AEN: think maybe not
(12:58 AM) Thusness: like now u r very attached
then the letting go of this attachment...
let go...
get it?
(12:59 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:59 AM) Thusness: like u are very attached to answering to kian....
i tell u to let go...
gone...
get it?
one is holding
one is letting
(12:59 AM) AEN: ic..
(12:59 AM) Thusness: ur mind is holding
i told u let go...
get it?
(1:00 AM) AEN: just now i took a glance at taobums, then headache.. then i just let go. gone
(1:00 AM) Thusness: let u say in the seen, just the seen...
i tell u to let go of that...
gone...no more
(1:00 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:02 AM) Thusness: gate gate...gone...like the heart sutra
(1:02 AM) AEN: yeah. but if i just simply open to the empty, luminous, flickering field of sensations as it is... it becomes automatically traceless
(1:03 AM) Thusness: currently there is still a sense of let go
it is just that arising letting go of itself
(1:04 AM) Thusness: i m not referring to the explanation...i m referring to that experience
i am not referring to that u realize that
i am saying that 'releasing'
it is just like luminosity...
u directly experience the non-dual luminosity
clear, vivid...pristine...and brilliantly present
i am not referring to that 'releasing'
did u experience it
(1:06 AM) AEN: yeah i mean if i open to sensations as they are, they simply subside momentarily by itself... it is because i dont open to sensations as they are, that i cling to things solidly.
(1:06 AM) Thusness: ai yoh
i am saying did u experience that releasing
it is like there is no-self
it is like u tell someone there is no-self
the question is did that someone directly experience the no-self
once u experience no-self, u clearly understand no-self
i mean now say, about that releasing...get it
(1:09 AM) AEN: more like non abiding
(1:10 AM) Thusness: more like stainless
(1:11 AM) AEN: what i experience is that every moment is gone and fresh without any sense of linking with the past... but there is also not even the 'present' as everything is really dissolving, not solid, not graspable
(1:11 AM) Thusness: u know what is burden or not?
like walking 24km...
then u completed
finished....
release...
get it
do u have that feeling
can u get what i meant
what u r telling me is phenomena is empty...u realize..it is passing away
get it
it is like u r watching...phenomena is gone
it is different from being that phenomena that is gone
(1:14 AM) Thusness: the burden is gone
(1:14 AM) AEN: oic
(1:14 AM) Thusness: like u r holding rifle over ur head
tiring...
then u let go...
that letting go sensation
releasing
get it?
(1:15 AM) AEN: yea
(1:15 AM) Thusness: not i see phenomena is ever passing
dreamlike
i m refering that do u have that feeling of releasing
(1:16 AM) AEN: no i dont feel that kind of releasing i think
i mean like what u described above
(1:16 AM) Thusness: yeah
like when u first experience anatta
no-self
the weight is gone
there is a sense of relief too
on top of the vividness
(1:17 AM) AEN: yea
(1:17 AM) Thusness: suddenly that linkage is gone
get it?
like u r in conflict with someone
suddenly both of u patch up
relief and release
that feeling
get it?
like u r having anger
let go
(1:20 AM) AEN: ic..
so u're saying one should practice this?
(1:23 AM) Thusness: if u do not understand this, u will need to undergo suffering to release
(1:23 AM) AEN: oic
(1:24 AM) Thusness: practice because it is not clear...the experience is not obvious
no owner is clear
no background is clear
the releasing is still very much lacking
(1:24 AM) AEN: ic..
(1:25 AM) Thusness: practice letting go as if u are willing to drop everything
i go sleep already
(1:27 AM) AEN: oic..
gd nite
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Soh Wei Yu

One of the co-founder of LU, Elena Nezhinsky, 'gated' at Ruthless Truth and experienced impersonality/non-doership. She started LU and only many years after starting LU did she realize I AM through self-enquiry. Then after I AM, the nondual aspect.
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Soh Wei Yu

Also I wrote this article which some may find helpful: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../different... Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

But I found /find myself enamored with the Gelug approach that, to me, refuses to reduce all phenomena to some type of substrate. But it seems that this specific commitment is something of an anomaly among Western students of Tibetan Buddhism, and there seems to be a preference for overall approaches that are either more ecumenical/non-sectarian and/or a strong preference for Yogacara, but I don't know. I'm still very new to the Tibetan Buddhist world.

I'd love to hear from folks who are more conversant with the schools of tenants and Tibetan Buddhism generally. Are my assumptions above inaccurate? Do many feel persuaded by the turning-of-the-wheel taxonomy? Is the Gelug approach considered too limited or constrained--or, horrors: incomplete? If they do, how are the emptiness teachings formulated to sit alongside some type of global substrate, like awareness? (Just for background, my main sources for understanding these teachings have been Greg Goode, Jeffrey Hopkins, Guy Newland, and to a lesser degree Jan Westerhoff, CW Huntington, and of course, the classical literature associated with this tradition, Tsongkhapa, et. al.).

Thanks"

 

 

I replied:

 

For the past 2 months, I focused mainly on somatic techniques due to having an energy imbalance. Very limited contemplation or formal meditation.

When I walk, there is just the sensation of my feet touching the hard floor. When hearing a song on Youtube, it’s just hearing the sound itself without any kind of internal interference. Sometimes I even re-develop an energy imbalance while listening to music. There’s no need for a “hearer” to hear for me, but it’s actually happening in real-time rather than merely theoretically.

Any concept of anything absolute or unchanging no longer exists. I used to believe in God, but it disappeared as well. There’s no need for a separate awareness, and through practicing the exercises in Seeing that Frees and Clarifying the Natural State I know firsthand that the self never existed in the first place. It was all a self-deception.

I’ve had no-mind experiences in the past, but since it’s been stable for over 1 month, I think the insight has fully developed. However I still have thoughts, emotions, and get absent-minded. The world around me still feels very much physical. After practicing some of the emptiness exercises, I have weird visions and hallucinations, like objects have no boundary surrounding it. But still working on it, so ignore this section.

Sometimes the world seems “flat” like everything is 2D or a painting, but again, I’m not confident in anything beyond anatta. Or that the colors of each object start mixing together like a wet painting.

I feel like I can make everyday experience even more direct, that the directness of how everything is perceived can be increased. However when I do so, I experience pressure around my third eye. If I try to delve into sensations even more it spreads to the crown chakra. Even with anatta I feel there are phases in terms of how directly everything is perceived by the 5 senses. But again, it’s difficult to go further at present.

....

I started meditating 2 years ago.
I realized I AM accidentally by reading non-duality/advaita books, and doing mindfulness in plain english 30 mins everyday.
Power of Now, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Ramakrishna, was focused on nirvikalpa samadhi...
I was able to escape [Soh: the trap of reifying I AM] using Seeing that Frees, but not sure if he [Mr. A. J.] will read it

[12:39 PM, 10/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I asked him to read clarifying the natural state two months ago (Further comments by Soh: not the first time I heard of someone attaining insights just by reading through this book, so this is recommended reading, along with The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1. And as I told Nafis, if you are interested in Mahamudra or Dzogchen, find a good teacher in these lineages.)
[12:39 PM, 10/7/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Back then he hasn't realised anatta. Only no mind

[12:40 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: Like I said yesterday, even anatta there r several phases.
[12:41 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: Anatta as in the experiential insight of seeing through self and seeing through the cause for the sense of self is different.
[12:48 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: The later path one towards emptiness realizing "inherency" is the result of a reification.  One then progress through deconstructing the reification thoroughly and gain the prajna (wisdom) that not only sees through directly the mental constructs and conventionalities but also the direct knowledge of one's empty clarity.
[1:01 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: Don't rush post anatta or even no-mind but refine one's view. Nevertheless it is hard not to get energy imbalances initially which is due attachment of going after certain experiences.

The sense of self/Self or any sense of it-ness is a hindrance for natural spontaneity and therefore thorough exhaustion is necessary.  However maturing this emptiness of "it-ness or self-ness" post anatta is an ongoing process.  Deeply held blindspots are slippery and extremely difficult to see and can take decades to reveal.  

So practice calmly and evenly...don't rush into anything...

Just relax and be fully open to whatever arises without dual, don't go after anything and keep refining view instead of chasing after experiences.  Eventually the clarity of seeing through will automatically result in the everyday experiences.
[1:13 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: Without dual and without self

Nafis Rahman wrote:

[1:18 PM, 10/7/2020] John Tan: Just continue with current practice.  Allow the whole body mind to become a sensing organ,  vibrantly alive and intimately connected with the ten thousand things!




Nafis Rahman wrote to someone else: