See whole discussion here:

Chris Jones recently realised I AM and posed this question.

Has anyone gone through Liberation Unleashed and have any experiences or thoughts on it they’d like to share? They claim to be able to point people directly to Anatta, even without any prior practice. It seems to depend highly on how experienced your guide is, but I think it’s a really interesting idea.
(I’m not advertising and don’t represent them in any way, just wanted opinions)

  • badge icon
    You know I always throw the 80% I AM, 15% One Mind Nondual, 2% or less anatta/emptiness estimate by myself (admittedly I haven't done a very methodical study) which is purely based on my own estimate
    My guess, again based purely on impressions, is that LU is somewhat like 80% impersonality, maybe 10-20% have gone through I AM, 10% have one mind sort of nondual, and maybe 1-2% are closer to anatta.
    But for you, if you can even experience impersonality that is good, since that is one of the four aspects of I AM that will be your next step. For example, when John Wheeler wrote this article, he was only experiencing the 'impersonality' aspect of no-self + I AM realization, so that no-self spoken in there is about impersonality, nothing more, he wasn't even clear about nondual yet: -- yet he clearly delineated the two insights (I AM and impersonality) as both different yet crucial and complementary to his understanding and breakthrough.
    I suppose some do have anatta sort of insight from LU and ruthless truth but it is a minority. Hale Oh said he realised anatta in LU, and prior to that he was at the I AM phase.
    Liberation Unleashed was the offshoot of Ruthless Truth, exactly same approach also, so these comments apply:
    Session Start: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011
    (11:14 PM) Thusness: Don't over promote ruthlesstruth
    many of the blue status aren't anatta
    and that is not the way to teach
    (11:45 PM) AEN: oic..
    i do notice that many have not realized anatta
    why is it not the way to teach
    (11:46 PM) Thusness: what are they teaching?
    everything isn't clear
    how is it that u intro ppl this site here and there
    instead of leading ppl to the right path with the right view
    there are so many good buddhist sites with right teaching
    (11:47 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:48 PM) Thusness: some don't even have non-dual
    and all these over claiming
    don't mislead ppl
    (11:48 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:49 PM) Thusness: how things manifest is not clear
    anatta not clear
    non-dual not clear
    (11:49 PM) Thusness: there is not even experience of I AM
    (11:49 PM) AEN: oic
    yeah they dont talk about I AM
    i think its a mix of ppl in impersonality, non dual, and anatta
    i mean the site
    (11:50 PM) Thusness: not only that...there is no clear insight
    so don't anyhow claim about enlightenment
    and lead ppl to enlightenment
    (11:50 PM) AEN: but i think there are some who are clear about anatta there
    though not as many as they claimed
    (11:50 PM) Thusness: worst still overclaiming that insight of anatta arises
    this is pure nonsense
    what anatta...?
    din i tell u experience of no-mind is not anatta?
    (11:51 PM) AEN: oic
    yeah ciaran isn't talking about an experience though
    (11:52 PM) Thusness: from a scale of 1-10, i don't even rate it a 2
    don't anyhow intro ppl... that will only mislead ppl
    (11:52 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:52 PM) Thusness: not even AF
    (11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:53 PM) Thusness: there is no short cut
    don't get mixed up and confuse
    out of 10 questions asked about anatta, i don't think they can pass even 1
    (11:54 PM) AEN: what qns
    (11:55 PM) Thusness: lead them to the right buddhist site
    (11:55 PM) AEN: oic
    but in terms of anatta not exactly a lot of buddhist sites have great clarity either
    (11:55 PM) Thusness: there is mahamudra
    u mean ruthlesstruth has clarity?
    (11:55 PM) AEN: not really
    (11:55 PM) Thusness: then?
    anatta must be understood with DO
    (11:56 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:56 PM) Thusness: don't create Buddha
    u r mis-representing buddhism
    I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha
    how is anatta the end of path?
    din i tell u it is only the beginning stage
    and from a scale of 1-10 in the bhumis, what has one understood?
    (12:00 AM) Thusness: understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning or rightly understanding liberation
    (12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:03 AM) Thusness: also do not give ppl the impression that anatta is the end of path
    (12:04 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:05 AM) Thusness: also the releasing is still not there
    as for u, release ur contraction
    ur latent tendencies are still strong
    despite ur realization
    (12:06 AM) AEN: oic..
    means sense of self?
    (12:07 AM) Thusness: ur mind and body
    u r unable to let go non-dually
    means ur latent inherent tendencies are still very strong
    (12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:08 AM) Thusness: sit and let go of ur entire mind and body
    meet conditions and let go
    when u answer ur parents, treat it as a form of practice too
    smile in ur heart
    and be patient
    (12:10 AM) Thusness: after realization, meditate on the 6 entries and exits
    feel that whatever arises is primordially pure
    then allow it to meet daily matters...
    see how it arises...and understand the latent deep
    that is then true practice
    (12:11 AM) AEN: oic..
    letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...
    (12:15 AM) Thusness: no
    that is completely wrong
    after anatta, u r able to experience whatever arises directly
    feel wholely
    (12:17 AM) AEN: yea
    (12:17 AM) Thusness: yet u are still contracting
    ur entire body is imprinted to hold
    (12:17 AM) AEN: oic
    (12:18 AM) Thusness: letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go
    (12:19 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:19 AM) Thusness: means ur body and mind must let go
    by its own accord, non-dually
    not by disassociation
    practice this
    (12:21 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:21 AM) Thusness: ur mind, ur thoughts, ur body
    without ground, without center, without essence
    like painting on a pond
    u understand theoretically but not in direct experience
    (12:22 AM) AEN: how is what i said previously wrong
    (12:22 AM) Thusness: there is realization but experience is still on the surface
    (12:22 AM) AEN: think its the same thing..
    (12:22 AM) Thusness: is ur body releasing?
    (12:23 AM) Thusness is now Offline
    (12:25 AM) AEN: it feels like any 'i' or anything is dissolving into just the universe... and not only that the entire universe is dissolving, gone each moment
    (12:25 AM) Thusness is now Online
    (12:25 AM) Thusness: is ur mind is in state of perpetual releasing?
    (12:26 AM) AEN: i wouldnt say perpetual... like every moment of my life i guess... but its like kind of normal
    (12:26 AM) Thusness: no
    now u r only without background
    but not releasing
    (12:27 AM) AEN: oic
    (12:27 AM) Thusness: ur experience is direct, vivid and clear
    but not releasing
    (12:27 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:28 AM) Thusness: experience is spontaneous but not releasing
    that is different
    spontaneous because DO, but if latent tendencies are there, what arises in like it a perpetual holding mode
    (12:29 AM) Thusness: just like an arising thought, there is no one behind
    but that 'thought' is attachment
    is holding
    (12:29 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:29 AM) Thusness: get it?
    like ur attachment to forum...
    now there are 2 ways
    one is disassociation, one is letting go due to its nature
    when i told u to let go, initially we do it by way of disassociation
    even after arising insight of anatta, we still do it that way
    but we understand what it meant
    however in most of the time, releasing and letting go is still very much dualistic

    • Reply
    • 23m
    • Edited

  • badge icon
    (12:33 AM) AEN: oic..
    what is letting go dualistically
    means there is aversion?
    or trying to tune things out?
    (12:34 AM) Thusness: u may think ur letting go is natural, but it is not
    it is still a form of dis-association
    when u hear music, listen
    and experience how it painting on the surface of a pond
    slowly dissolve into tracelessness
    as itself and by itself dissolve into tracelessness
    (12:37 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:38 AM) Thusness: when u breath...train urself to be in tune with the flow
    ur thoughts
    (12:39 AM) AEN: oic
    (12:40 AM) Thusness: ur body and ur mind must be in state of perpetual releasing
    this is very important
    (12:40 AM) AEN: means everything is like gone and everything is fresh without clinging to a previous moment?
    (12:41 AM) Thusness: don't worry about being fresh
    (12:41 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:42 AM) Thusness: means phenomena itself is releasing
    mental states
    whatever arises
    (12:42 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:45 AM) Thusness: now ur experience is still very skewed towards intensity of luminosity
    feels experiencing directly and wholely
    (12:46 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:47 AM) Thusness: like i told u about the mandala, vivid and clear...then gone
    although u understand, u have not experienced clearly yet
    (12:48 AM) AEN: its similar to what i said right 'letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...'
    (12:48 AM) Thusness: no
    (12:49 AM) Thusness: when u experienced, u will not be writing this way
    why do u worry about the universe?
    (12:50 AM) AEN: for example if i am walking on the street... there isnt a perception even of moving from one location to another... in fact there is not even a perception of there being a universe... its utterly empty and self-releasing... nothing i can pin down
    (12:51 AM) Thusness: why universe?
    why do u worry so much about the universe?
    (12:52 AM) AEN: yeah.. thats what i mean
    there isnt a universe
    (12:52 AM) Thusness: so why mention about it?
    (12:53 AM) AEN: cos prior to this the universe still does have a tinge of appearing solid.. like its 'there'... but now that cant be said
    (12:54 AM) Thusness: it is not experience becoming dream-like
    i mean saying the releasing
    did u experience that releasing?
    (12:56 AM) AEN: if u mean everything is gone every moment and nothing solid there then yes... but if u mean something else then i dunno
    (12:56 AM) Thusness: no i am not referring to nothing solid...i am telling u the releasing
    (12:56 AM) AEN: oic
    (12:57 AM) Thusness: ai yoh...
    u know what is releasing or not
    the feeling of letting go...
    (12:57 AM) AEN: is it like the tranquilising of body and mind that i talked about
    (12:57 AM) Thusness: do u have that feeling of letting go
    not stillness
    (12:58 AM) AEN: think maybe not 😛
    (12:58 AM) Thusness: like now u r very attached
    then the letting go of this attachment...
    let go...
    get it?
    (12:59 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:59 AM) Thusness: like u are very attached to answering to kian....
    i tell u to let go...
    get it?
    one is holding
    one is letting
    (12:59 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:59 AM) Thusness: ur mind is holding
    i told u let go...
    get it?
    (1:00 AM) AEN: just now i took a glance at taobums, then headache.. then i just let go. gone 😛
    (1:00 AM) Thusness: let u say in the seen, just the seen...
    i tell u to let go of that... more
    (1:00 AM) AEN: oic..
    (1:02 AM) Thusness: gate the heart sutra
    (1:02 AM) AEN: yeah. but if i just simply open to the empty, luminous, flickering field of sensations as it is... it becomes automatically traceless
    (1:03 AM) Thusness: currently there is still a sense of let go
    it is just that arising letting go of itself
    (1:04 AM) Thusness: i m not referring to the explanation...i m referring to that experience
    i am not referring to that u realize that
    i am saying that 'releasing'
    it is just like luminosity...
    u directly experience the non-dual luminosity
    clear, vivid...pristine...and brilliantly present
    i am not referring to that 'releasing'
    did u experience it
    (1:06 AM) AEN: yeah i mean if i open to sensations as they are, they simply subside momentarily by itself... it is because i dont open to sensations as they are, that i cling to things solidly.
    (1:06 AM) Thusness: ai yoh
    i am saying did u experience that releasing
    it is like there is no-self
    it is like u tell someone there is no-self
    the question is did that someone directly experience the no-self
    once u experience no-self, u clearly understand no-self
    i mean now say, about that releasing...get it
    (1:09 AM) AEN: more like non abiding
    (1:10 AM) Thusness: more like stainless
    (1:11 AM) AEN: what i experience is that every moment is gone and fresh without any sense of linking with the past... but there is also not even the 'present' as everything is really dissolving, not solid, not graspable
    (1:11 AM) Thusness: u know what is burden or not?
    like walking 24km...
    then u completed
    get it
    do u have that feeling
    can u get what i meant
    what u r telling me is phenomena is empty...u is passing away
    get it
    it is like u r watching...phenomena is gone
    it is different from being that phenomena that is gone
    (1:14 AM) Thusness: the burden is gone
    (1:14 AM) AEN: oic
    (1:14 AM) Thusness: like u r holding rifle over ur head
    then u let go...
    that letting go sensation
    get it?
    (1:15 AM) AEN: yea
    (1:15 AM) Thusness: not i see phenomena is ever passing
    i m refering that do u have that feeling of releasing
    (1:16 AM) AEN: no i dont feel that kind of releasing i think
    i mean like what u described above
    (1:16 AM) Thusness: yeah
    like when u first experience anatta
    the weight is gone
    there is a sense of relief too
    on top of the vividness
    (1:17 AM) AEN: yea
    (1:17 AM) Thusness: suddenly that linkage is gone
    get it?
    like u r in conflict with someone
    suddenly both of u patch up
    relief and release
    that feeling
    get it?
    like u r having anger
    let go
    (1:20 AM) AEN: ic..
    so u're saying one should practice this?
    (1:23 AM) Thusness: if u do not understand this, u will need to undergo suffering to release
    (1:23 AM) AEN: oic
    (1:24 AM) Thusness: practice because it is not clear...the experience is not obvious
    no owner is clear
    no background is clear
    the releasing is still very much lacking
    (1:24 AM) AEN: ic..
    (1:25 AM) Thusness: practice letting go as if u are willing to drop everything
    i go sleep already
    (1:27 AM) AEN: oic..
    gd nite

    • Reply
    • 22m

  • badge icon
    One of the co-founder of LU, Elena Nezhinsky, 'gated' at Ruthless Truth and experienced impersonality/non-doership. She started LU and only many years after starting LU did she realize I AM through self-enquiry. Then after I AM, the nondual aspect.

    • Reply
    • 20m
    • Edited

0 Responses