Is I AMness stream entry?

• Soh Wei Yu

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  No, stream entry as defined in the suttas is not the first awakening (I AM).

  It is the realisation of no self and conditionality

  Do read https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

  And http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../insight-buddhism...

  The reddit post is of such importance (due to a very common misunderstanding about what stream entry means) that my mentor Thusness told me to place it at the top of the reading list in my Awakening to Reality blog
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Diederik van der Boor
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Soh Wei Yu Thank you for these extensive pointers.
I'm still slightly tripped by the terminology still because the Reddit post also mentions "stream-Entry (first Bodhi/awakening)", which would again suggest the equivalence with kensho/satori. I hope to get a sense of whether people talk of the same thing, or completely speak of different things while thinking they are the same.
For me, no-self is a much deeper stage of awakening, and I AM not as the first one. I'm lookin from the perspective of: first awakening -> finding emptyness in all forms -> finding awareness/fullness in everything (I AM?) -> taking that deeper -> no-self -> beyond original dualty of phenomena/awareness -> beyond mystery -> finding Divinity in everything
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Soh Wei Yu
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Diederik van der Boor If you go by Theravada path, you don't have to go through the I AM. I AM is only practiced and realised by the Thai forest Theravadins. The Mahasi path does not go through I AM. Daniel Ingram did not go through I AM before his anatta realization, which unfortunately he inaccurately (scripturally speaking) placed it as arahantship (4th path). It should accurately be called stream entry instead.
Daniel's definition of 1st and 2nd path (I just called them MCTB 1st/2nd/3rd/4th path but I don't agree they line up with the scriptures or Buddha's teachings) are just blip outs. Cessations. They don't have anything to do with I AM either (they are not for example, Nirvikalpa samadhi where mental-sensory perceptions blank out into an absorption in pure Presence/Beingness) But still they are mundane samadhis actually, it is not nirvana (although modern practitioners, some of them made this mistaken of equating these mundane blip outs with nirvana), they are not the real stream entry, they do not produce a quantum leap of perception that affects day to day life in very much the same way as a real nondual awakening, no-self awakening, or even an I AM awakening does. Yin Ling can tell you about this because she went through the Mahasi path.
O
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Soh Wei Yu
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Furthermore, even in for example, the Mahamudra and Dzogchen path, the way they present things are very similar to what I said. Will elaborate in the next post
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Soh Wei Yu
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But basically, I have read thousands of pages of pali suttas (I read it after Bahiya Sutta, a pali sutta text, led to my realization of anatman/no-self proper in October 2010), during 2010 to 2012, and I am confident of my understanding. Buddha never led anyone to I AM and called it stream entry or defined it in any way like that. But he did clearly go through I AM from his Samkhya teachers (and was dissatisfied with his attainments, left and attained awakening on his own under the bodhi tree later), it just wasn't placed as a supramundane path for his followers. He was always adamant about overcoming the myriad views of self (including being a watcher, the Samkhya/Vedantic's infinite self, and so on), and the elimination of all such views of self through direct experiential insight, that is stream entry. I elaborated with scriptural quotations in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-not-self-or... and also you can read more about it in Geoff's well written articles like http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/.../great...

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Anatta: Not-Self or No-Self?
Anatta: Not-Self or No-Self?
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Yin Ling
Soh Wei Yu nothing to add to your comment.
Blipping out or cessation is Nothing to shout home about. There’s no insight in that. It’s just how mind works. I blip out a lot involuntarily, it feels good but that’s all lol. Some ppl can induce it. But the duality I’m not broken. Very far from stream entry.
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Soh Wei Yu
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ok.. now about the Mahamudra and Dzogchen path.
In multiple books, Mahamudra teachers from ancient times, like Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, has defined a map of enlightenment known as the four yogas. The four yogas are as follows: the yoga of one pointedness, the yoga of simplicity, the yoga of one taste, and the yoga of non-meditation.
The first bhumi (also known as Mahayana stream entry), universally defined as the moment where one has the direct experiential realization of emptiness, that is defined by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in his book (very highly recommended reading -- clarifying the natural state, see -- you can get the book at $1.25 http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../some-book... )
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal equates the beginning of the yoga of one taste with the path of seeing, the first bhumi. Some Mahamudra teachers define first bhumi as a certain stage within the yoga of simplicity (which some also define it as seeing through the emptiness of subject-action-object). Maps and definitions may differ slightly according to different teachers. But I tend to like Dakpo Tashi's mapping. In any case, all agree that the first bhumi is directly correlated with the realization of emptiness, the seeing through of the seer-seeing-seen/subject-action-object construct, it also corresponds to the realising of non-arising of mind and phenomena (the empty nature of mind and phenomena). Furthermore, none of the Mahamudra teachers would equate the first yoga of one pointedness, with first bhumi.
And yet, it is clearly this very first yoga of one pointedness that is where the so called 'first awakening' or the I AM is at.
How do I know? These quotes are crystal clear: "You have seen the essence of One-Pointedness if you
have reached a naturally knowing and confident certainty
in your mind's aware emptiness. You have not seen the
essence if you do not possess this confident certitude, even
if you can remain in the states of bliss, clarity and nonthought." - Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, Clarifying the Natural State
In other books by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, it is also mentioned somewhere that the earlier yoga of one pointedness is where the characteristic of luminous clarity of one's essence is discovered (this corresponds to the so called I AM). Whereas emptiness (which includes no-self) is only realised in the later yogas.
Likewise, other teachers like Khamtrul Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche also made a distinction between the beginner's vipashyana or 'baby rigpa' from the real matured or 'fruitional' vipashyana and rigpa.
"At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness, you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru, properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called “the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization, or “the vajra mind view.”
"Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."
- Khamtrul Rinpoche, Royal Seal of Mahamudra Part 1 http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../self-liberation-by...
. And yet this does not mean one has ended one's path, it is just the path of seeing to be followed by the path of meditation and non meditation (spanning the yogas of one taste and yogas of non-meditation, or bhumis 1 to 10/13/16)

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Some book recommendations for newcomers
Some book recommendations for newcomers
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Soh Wei Yu
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Kyle Dixon shared with me resources describing first bhumi years ago, "The Daśabhūmika sūtra, and its commentary by Vasubandhu. Candrakīrti’s Madhyamakāvatāra. The Avataṃsaka.
But I’m not sure how extensive the descriptions are. The first bhūmi is without a doubt the first instance of insight into emptiness.
Wikipedia says “According to Tsong Khapa, first level bodhisattvas directly understand that persons do not exist by way of their own nature. Due to this, they overcome the false idea that the five aggregates constitute a truly existent person. They also eliminate predispositions toward corrupted ethics so completely that they will not arise again.[8]”
There’s no doubt this is anatta."
Also
"...The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
Also (notice how first bhumi is Mahamudra stream entry)
"The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three fetters: the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing. "
~ Mipham http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../definition-of-first...
Next post: I will talk about Dzogchen

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Definition of First Bhumi, Stream Entry, Etc
Definition of First Bhumi, Stream Entry, Etc
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Soh Wei Yu
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Oh wait. Before that. I quoted fruitional vipashyana from Mahamudra but I forgot to quote 'Beginner's Vipashyana':
Now, to what degree must vipashyana have arisen to be considered true vipashyana? The unmistaken vipashyana that has directly realized the truth of dharmata comes only at the time of the greater level of the yoga of simplicity. In our case, however, we are only concerned with the vipashyana that arises in the beginner’s mind. For instance, the first moon of the month does not have the same function as the full moon, yet it is still conventionally considered to be the moon. Therefore here we are concerned with the vipashyana that includes one’s mind and the thoughts and phenomena arising from its radiance, as discussed earlier. All phenomena of subject and object are unoriginated, nonabiding, and unceasing. To know this crucial point and to have the experience and conviction born from deep within that they are devoid of true essence or nature is what, at this point, should be defined as vipashyana. It may happen that, for some time, vipashyana does not arise to such a degree. However, as followers of the practice lineage, we acknowledge the following beginner’s vipashyana. The essence of one’s mind is an unidentifiable void; it is the primordial cognizance that has not been fabricated. In the mind that is aware of itself and lucid by itself, these two, void and cognizance, are inseparable. To gain the experience that the mind has ascertained that it is so is a beginner’s vipashyana. By sustaining just that much at the beginning, we are confident that unmistaken vipashyana will gradually arise.
Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 262). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
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Soh Wei Yu
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About Dzogchen: similar mappings can be found.
The rigpa (knowledge or recognition of one's nature) that all Dzogchen practitioners must obtain, either from the direct introduction given by the Master (it does work that way -- someone described to me that he had that initial first awakening just by listening and attending to Acarya Malcolm Smith's first Dzogchen direct introduction teaching, the first session), or if having failed, subsequently self-introduces oneself to one's own nature through the practices of semdzins and rushans taught by the teacher. Prior to rigpa or having that recognition, one's Dzogchen practice has not really begun.
Yet nobody realizes emptiness on the first introduction, unless you belong to a special calibre that is perhaps reserved to fables and stories.
Almost everyone goes through the phases of first recognizing the aspect of unfabricated clarity, where the Dzogchen teacher tells you to distinguish the reflections (phenomena) from the mirror itself, so that you can discover that you are the mirror of instant presence. Sometimes they even use self enquiry to discover 'Who' is that instant presence even when all visualisations have vanished. But this is just the beginning, the discovery of instant presence is simply the discovery of one's unfabricated clarity, but it is the crucial first recognition of the clarity of rigpa, but it is not the matured or ripened rigpa that comes with the realization of emptiness or at third vision which is then equated with the path of seeing, the first bhumi, etc. (Dzogchen's rainbow body is the last bhumi, Buddhahood, etc) The realization of no-self and emptiness comes later, at a very mature phase of one's Trekcho's practice where one suddenly discovers the non-arising (empty) nature of one's mind, and discovers one's primordial purity (Kadag). Or, one reaches the third vision of the Thodgal practice. One simply requires the recognition of clarity aspect of rigpa for the first two visions.
You can read http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-degrees-of... -- so the specific methods and practices differ, but the progression of insight, as far as I tell, there are strong overlaps.

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The Degrees of Rigpa
The Degrees of Rigpa
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Soh Wei Yu
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I have attended Acarya Malcolm Smith's Dzogchen teachings and I am simply reiterating what I have learnt, as far as I can tell.
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Soh Wei Yu
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But Kyle Dixon, long time student of Malcolm (and Malcolm told me in 2019 that Kyle was the first who totally understood his teachings, and also Kyle himself has the realisation of anatman and emptiness, also see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../advise-from-kyle_10... ), agrees with me privately that the so called I AM, or instant presence, is similar to the initial rigpa and then the realisation of anatman and emptiness comes later, known as the fully ripened or matured rigpa, the rigpa of the third vision, the first bhumi, and so on.

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Advice from Kyle Dixon
Advice from Kyle Dixon
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Soh Wei Yu
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Diederik van der Boor Also have you seen this map: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss-six...

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Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
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 https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/8532948386746516/?__cft__[0]=AZU16atTFytnacLJ0BTqD_9iwcmmLEpexfmUUrOMPk-VGZ_3YlOdRC62CYmdE3OZAUPkKmD5i7zOrzzfFPfWGvD2lTVkwrnfdn-kR_78UB5Mhx-H2qh0IYXha8fppX--F97mm8-g0LlSdLhKVQz0xdttRjlPEWsFjTYoBUWQci0m7gKltZgNd4n6gBjUeH2P2K8&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Soh Wei Yu

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As John Tan said before, if you still experience even the slightest negative emotions when faced with the worldly winds, then in such case, you have not even lived in non-dual radiance to the "middle level", otherwise whatever happens to you, the eight worldly winds, they won't affect you at all. Even if loved ones depart from your life and so on, the universe collapses, whatever. Therefore if one feels one is still affected even in the slightest (like feeling the slightest tinge of sadness or attachment to anything that happens), then one must increase one's practice. You have to sit and overcome the body to stillness and then to pervasiveness of radiance, and master a skill (method of practice) that can help to develop your meditation (shamatha-vipashyana) and don't think you have reached the ultimate stage of non-meditation. It's a joke, laughable, he said.

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Yin Ling

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Soh Wei Yu this comment should be a post in itself!

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/8532948386746516/?__cft__[0]=AZU16atTFytnacLJ0BTqD_9iwcmmLEpexfmUUrOMPk-VGZ_3YlOdRC62CYmdE3OZAUPkKmD5i7zOrzzfFPfWGvD2lTVkwrnfdn-kR_78UB5Mhx-H2qh0IYXha8fppX--F97mm8-g0LlSdLhKVQz0xdttRjlPEWsFjTYoBUWQci0m7gKltZgNd4n6gBjUeH2P2K8&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Owen Richards

Where is suffering and the end of suffering in such perceptual takes on awakening?

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Soh Wei Yu

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Owen Richards That has to do with the depth of how deep your realisation has sunk in and liberates the latent tendency. This is why there is the gradation from stream entry to arahantship. Or 1st bhumi to Buddhahood. The Buddha said 'in the seen just the seen... ...no you in terms of that...' in Bahiya Sutta is equivalent to 'the end of suffering', and Bahiya got it instantly and attained Arahantship, the complete end of mental afflictions and suffering. But does that mean everyone who has the anatman insight becomes an arahant instantly? No, usually it means one starts with stream entry ( https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20 , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html ), unless you are of the elite calibre. This is why as Kyle Dixon said in 2013, “99% of individuals require integration and familiarization. The non-gradual individuals [cig car ba's] are said to be as rare as stars in the day time, and the Dalai Lama attests that there hasn't been a cig car ba for centuries.”

But when you are in actual equipoise, even if you are just a stream enterer, there is no suffering. There is literally no self/Self at all either. In the seen just the seen, no seer, no seeing and nothing seen.. and same goes for all senses. Just bright, vivid, empty luminosity/radiance as all appearances. And sustaining the awakened equipoise is the way to burn away all residual latent karmic traces. But whether at the beginning you have that insight suffused with sufficient samadhi and stability is another matter, without that strength you will still be affected by the traces. When that awakened equipoise is unbroken 24/7/365 even into all the three states and all subtle latent tendencies have been exhausted, that is Buddhahood. If you experience the slightest mental affliction or negative emotions for even 0.001 seconds in the entire year, you have not attained the 8th bhumi (in fact by the 3rd bhumi you should hardly have any of them at all), let alone a Buddha that has exhausted both obscurations (afflictions and knowledge obscurations). But your day to day living should see a tremendous reduction of suffering and mental afflictions in general, even if you are just at the level of stream entry if you are on the Sravaka path, or the 1st bhumi stage if you are on the Mahayana path. So even after you realise anatta and emptiness, there's still a long way to go. But what 99% of people describe as no-self is not even what AtR calls anatman insight, and is not stream entry, but is most likely merely an experience of impersonality or non-doership. See http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html And what some/many people describe as arahant is only what the suttas and AtR consider to be merely stream entry (ala Daniel Ingram's model and definition of arahantship is simply what we consider to be stream entry here).

Also see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html

Also, excerpts by Kyle Dixon:

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

Kyle has written a very nice account back in 2012 of his own realization: Advice from Kyle Dixon - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html

“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.

Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.

The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019

“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021

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Soh Wei Yu

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As John Tan said before, if you still experience even the slightest negative emotions when faced with the worldly winds, then in such case, you have not even lived in non-dual radiance to the "middle level", otherwise whatever happens to you, the eight worldly winds, they won't affect you at all. Even if loved ones depart from your life and so on, the universe collapses, whatever. Therefore if one feels one is still affected even in the slightest (like feeling the slightest tinge of sadness or attachment to anything that happens), then one must increase one's practice. You have to sit and overcome the body to stillness and then to pervasiveness of radiance, and master a skill (method of practice) that can help to develop your meditation (shamatha-vipashyana) and don't think you have reached the ultimate stage of non-meditation. It's a joke, laughable, he said.

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Yin Ling

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Soh Wei Yu this comment should be a post in itself!

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 👍

Yin Ling:

When we say experiential insight in Buddhism, 

It means.. 

A literal transformation of energetic orientation of the whole being, down to the marrow. 

The sound MUST literally hears themselves. 

No hearer. 

Clean. Clear. 

A bondage from the head here to there cut off overnight. 

Then gradually the rest of the 5 senses. 

Then one can talk about Anatta. 

So if for you, 

Does sound hear themselves? 

If no, not yet. You have to keep going! Inquire and meditate.

You haven’t reach the basic insight requirement for the deeper insights like anatta and emptiness yet!

Yin Ling:

Yin Ling: “Realisation is when 

This insight goes down to the marrow and you don’t need even a minute amount of effort for sound to hear themselves. 

It is like how you live with dualistic perception now, very normal, no effort. 

Ppl with Anatta realisation live in Anatta effortlessly, without using thinking to orient. It’s their life. 

They cannot even go back to dualistic perception because that is an imputation, it js uprooted 

At first you might need to purposely orient with some effort. 

Then at one point there is no need.. further along, dreams will become Anatta too. 

That’s experiential realisation. 

There’s no realisation unless this benchmark is achieved!”

......

"Soh:

what is important is that there is experiential realisation that leads

to an energetic expansion outwards into all the forms, sounds, radiant

universe... such that it is not that you are in here, in the body,

looking outwards at the tree, listening the birds chirping from here

it is just the trees are vividly swaying in and of itself, luminously

without an observer

the trees sees themselves

the sounds hear itself

there is no location from which they are experienced, no vantage point

the energetic expansion outward into vivid manifestation, boundless, yet

it is not an expansion from a center, there is just no center

without such energetic shift it is not really the real experience of no

selfxabir Snoovatar" - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/12/the-difference-between-experience-of.html

I discussed this topic a lot but it keeps re occurring, so I'm sharing this part of a convo I had on reddit with yall.

1. No doership = spontaneous
2. Mere appearances as Presence Imo, she is more on 1 not so much on 2 so far in her descriptions. [8:43 PM, 6/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah I thought so” This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization ReplyRemove Preview1m Soh Wei Yu 2006: “(1:19 AM) John: it is very difficult to stabilize the no-self stage. (1:19 AM) John: haahahha....it can take many many years. (1:19 AM) AEN: oic.. (1:20 AM) John: depending on longchen [Sim Pern Chong] conditions, i hope he can go through 2 more break-through to stabilize a lil. (1:20 AM) AEN: 2 more break through? (1:20 AM) AEN: icic (1:21 AM) John: u think initial break-through means that's all....kok your head (1:21 AM) AEN: haha no la (1:21 AM) John: still need some time. (1:21 AM) AEN: icic (1:22 AM) John: the realness and vividness of the phenomenal world and self-arising (self-so) is very important. (comments by Soh: realness and vividness related to second anatta stanza, self-arising related to first stanza) he almost need to break the layer of 'thinking mechanism' completely to see it. now he will still have a hard time fighting with this habitual tendency (1:23 AM) AEN: oic.. (1:23 AM) John: the subtle imprints of the labels and names will confuse him. That is why i told you to post at his site. hope it can sink into his consciousness. only the realness and self-arising can break-lose this layer....it is quite tough....and will suffer a lil.” “Unmanifested is the manifestation, The no-thing of everything, Completely still yet ever flowing, This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source. Simply Self-So. Use self-so to overcome conceptualization. Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.” – John Tan, 2006 Mr. C: Okay thank you I will continue to hold the stanzas in mind. I often lose myself completely in what is happening but that’s not really the same Soh: sounds like non-doership See http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html