The difference between the experience of non-doership and impersonality vs the experiential realization of non-dual anatman

I discussed this topic a lot but it keeps re occurring, so I'm sharing this part of a convo I had on reddit with yall.

Soh Wei Yu Mr. C: Have you ever encountered this? I’m sure you have Snoovatar Soh: I have read some of the suttas from sutta nipata But if you want to start reading i suggest an overview of the buddhist teachings first which i think this is a good one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003OYIG00/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr= Its on kindle for $2.99xabir Snoovatar And many impt suttas inside too. After anatta you will realise the purpose of satipatthana (the four foundations of mindfulness)xabir Snoovatar It is related to http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html Btw which city do you live in or around? I can see if i know of any dharma centres or communities around youxabir Snoovatar .... Soh: I have a full time job haha as a software engineerxabir Snoovatar Sorry i seem to have failed to send a message earliet — After my anatman breakthrough from bahiya sutta, i read thousands of pages of suttas from books like this one https://www.amazon.com/.../dp/B003XRDC2K/ref=mp_s_a_1_1... and the majjhima nikaya (the middle length discourses) https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003XRDC2K... And the message was then followed up by “But if you want to start reading i suggest an overview of the buddhist teachings first which i think this is a good one:” and etc I find yin ling very inspiring She is a full time doctor (i think general practitioner) and has a very busy work but she always makes time for dharma reading and she still meditates 3 to 4 hours a day Likewise my mentor thusness also does the same (hours spent meditating everyday) .... Soh: https://youtu.be/sl3jKFTKkuI Good post by https://www.reddit.com/user/krodha/ on the anatman insight: "'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness." - Kyle Dixon, 2014xabir Snoovatar Do u have the sense that sound is hearing itself? Like literally? Also, john tan said in 2006: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/this-is-impersonality-aspect-not-anatta.html http://web.archive.org/.../www.../html/body_stages.html SUMMARY Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM THAT Self Realization – I AM Jnani – I Satguru – no conceptualization Thusness: Interesting site... In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond labels and concepts. I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments: On the experience of “AMness”: The key when the ‘I’ drops away lies in “fusing into everything”. Without this experience, it is still resting in “I AM”, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of “fusing into all things”, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in. .... Do you have the experience above where the dissolution of self leads to the fusing into everything? What is it like now? What the Buddha Taught: Revised and Expanded Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada AMAZON.COM What the Buddha Taught: Revised and Expanded Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada What the Buddha Taught: Revised and Expanded Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada ReplyRemove Preview2m Soh Wei Yu Mr. C: complete dissolution of the “self” doesn’t seem to be the correct way of saying it for me unfortunately. Although there are no boundaries between me and others often there seems to be the little twinge of self identity that hangs around. I can not truly say that I have had the complete fusing into everything experience. Only tastes of such maybe a couple sips lol Soh: Then its not good enough.. true actualization of anatman is truly nondual, totally fused into the vividness of appearances of all senses in bright luminosity Even then it is a state initially, glimpses. Realisation of anatman as seal turns it into a natural state Spend quality time in meditation, open space, nature, and experience this dissolution of self and fusing into everything and keep the two stanzas of anatta in mind until there is breakthrough and certainty and it stabilizes Excerpt: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/this-is-impersonality-aspect-not-anatta.html icic (8:48 PM) John: read Soen-sa experience (Soh: see http://www.buddhanet.net/masters/soen-sa.htm) (8:48 PM) AEN: so u mean my fren experience the same 'life force' thing? (8:48 PM) John: yet his is not stable yet (8:48 PM) AEN: soen-sa? seung sahn? (8:48 PM) AEN: oic (8:48 PM) AEN: what is not stable? (8:48 PM) John: that level is already beyond 1 going into 2 (note by Soh: not referring to 7 thusness stages. In his earlier definition, 1 is I AMness, 2 is anatta and emptiness, 3 is unconditional spontaneous presence) (8:49 PM) AEN: oic (8:49 PM) AEN: which one (8:49 PM) John: the luminosity is clear and correct (8:49 PM) AEN: oic.. (8:49 PM) John: yet his master told him to be silent for 3 years (8:49 PM) AEN: icic (8:49 PM) John: the mind that is pre-occupied cannot perceive his master's intention (8:49 PM) AEN: oic (8:50 PM) John: u know what is the problem of the link now? (8:50 PM) AEN: wat is it (8:51 PM) John: what is lacking... (8:51 PM) John: think...u should know (8:53 PM) John: what is the diff between what is posted and those zen masters' poems (8:53 PM) AEN: true experience, theoretical? (8:53 PM) John: yes but what is the true experience like? (8:54 PM) AEN: experiencing the presence in everything without self (8:54 PM) John: yes! fusing into everything.... (8:55 PM) John: the tennis court....the drum beats of the foot step (8:55 PM) AEN: oic (8:55 PM) John: that clarity breaks the first level into the 2nd (8:55 PM) AEN: icic how come (8:55 PM) John: the luminosity of the mirror bright (8:55 PM) AEN: u mean by experiencing that one will immediately realise Emptiness? (8:56 PM) John: wait...what is the differences between that and emptiness? (8:56 PM) John: sorry i mean "AMness" (8:57 PM) John: the clarity of zen masters enlightenment and "AMness" (8:57 PM) AEN: amness is still attached to a state of purity? not completely fuse into everything? (8:58 PM) John: yes...has the zen master not demonstrated in their lives about the luminous clarity in all things that came into contact? (8:59 PM) John: is there a self? (8:59 PM) John: there is only the everything (8:59 PM) John: where is the 'Self'? (8:59 PM) AEN: oic.. (8:59 PM) AEN: but hmm (9:00 PM) AEN: i tot u also said b4, when one experiences the 'i am' when 6 senses are widely open, one will experience it as 'i am all'. isnt that also sort of fusing into everything? (9:00 PM) John: yes....and zen masters might have the danger of that too.... (9:01 PM) AEN: oic (9:01 PM) John: so luminosity is not nature (9:01 PM) John: what is it? (9:01 PM) AEN: emptiness? (9:01 PM) John: yes (9:01 PM) AEN: icic (9:01 PM) John: it is anatta...now this, now that, always changing and ungraspable (9:02 PM) AEN: icic (9:02 PM) John: the ungraspable is anatta manifestation. (9:02 PM) John: it is seen in all (9:02 PM) John: in everything (9:02 PM) AEN: oic (9:02 PM) John: if u return and want to rest in the 'Self', instead of gaining, u lost everything (9:02 PM) AEN: icic (9:03 PM) John: the nature is anatta, there is no self (9:03 PM) John: understand? (9:03 PM) AEN: ya (9:04 PM) John: now when one understand this, he lays the foundation of stabilizing this in "everything" experience (9:04 PM) John: because he is not returning to the "AMness" (9:04 PM) AEN: oic (9:04 PM) John: he is not confused anymore (9:04 PM) AEN: icic (9:05 PM) John: he finds it in all things without returning...though ungraspable, it is always seized at the moment.xabir Snoovatar Excerpt from the AtR guide: Anatta is often misunderstood as mere non-doership, impersonality and subject-object non-division (wrong self-diagnosis!) “Unless there is expression of non dual, otherwise yes more like impersonality and non-doership [than anatta].” – John Tan, 2019 “Nothing much, his no-self is more towards no doership rather then pellucid luminosity.” – John Tan mentioned about someone’s experience, 2020 “[11:24 PM, 5/23/2021] John Tan: Like in prasangika mmk, the non-affirming negation, in the phases of insights approach of the 2 stanzas, one is not interested in the affirmation, just the thorough deconstruction of self construct. The seeing through of self in anatta is the direct experiential taste of non-dual, purity and spontaneity. [11:39 PM, 5/23/2021] John Tan: So when someone describe to you, they say they have deconstruct self/Self but there is no direct taste of colors, smell, sensation, sound, no direct face to face of the radiance, pellucidity, purity, spontaneity, insubstantiality and non-duality of appearances, is that genuine authentication? [12:00 AM, 5/24/2021] Soh Wei Yu: No its not.. more like impersonality [12:00 AM, 5/24/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Or nondoership”” “[11:33 AM, 6/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: She asked what do you think [11:35 AM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: Later then I read [8:39 PM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: Yes more on no-doership. [8:40 PM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: 1. Dzogchen has a phrase "spontaneous presence". I do not know it's exact meaning in dzogchen however the phrase is intimately related to the 2 experiences of the [John Tan’s] 2 stanzas [of anatta]:
  1. No doership = spontaneous
  2. Mere appearances as Presence Imo, she is more on 1 not so much on 2 so far in her descriptions. [8:43 PM, 6/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah I thought so” This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization This is Impersonality Aspect, Not Anatta Realization ReplyRemove Preview1m Soh Wei Yu 2006: “(1:19 AM) John: it is very difficult to stabilize the no-self stage. (1:19 AM) John: haahahha....it can take many many years. (1:19 AM) AEN: oic.. (1:20 AM) John: depending on longchen [Sim Pern Chong] conditions, i hope he can go through 2 more break-through to stabilize a lil. (1:20 AM) AEN: 2 more break through? (1:20 AM) AEN: icic (1:21 AM) John: u think initial break-through means that's all....kok your head (1:21 AM) AEN: haha no la (1:21 AM) John: still need some time. (1:21 AM) AEN: icic (1:22 AM) John: the realness and vividness of the phenomenal world and self-arising (self-so) is very important. (comments by Soh: realness and vividness related to second anatta stanza, self-arising related to first stanza) he almost need to break the layer of 'thinking mechanism' completely to see it. now he will still have a hard time fighting with this habitual tendency (1:23 AM) AEN: oic.. (1:23 AM) John: the subtle imprints of the labels and names will confuse him. That is why i told you to post at his site. hope it can sink into his consciousness. only the realness and self-arising can break-lose this layer....it is quite tough....and will suffer a lil.” “Unmanifested is the manifestation, The no-thing of everything, Completely still yet ever flowing, This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source. Simply Self-So. Use self-so to overcome conceptualization. Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.” – John Tan, 2006 Mr. C: Okay thank you I will continue to hold the stanzas in mind. I often lose myself completely in what is happening but that’s not really the same Soh: sounds like non-doership See http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html
impersonality and non-doership is also important and is one of the four aspects of i am that refines and paves the way towards nondual and anatta. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html but it is not nondual or anatta. if you read the book 'what the buddha taught' i recommended above, you will also know an important scripture and teaching by buddha is on the four foundations of mindfulness.. this is also related to this important practice, excerpts from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html 2007: (10:50 PM) Thusness: at the more refine level of non dual experience, when the sense of self is gone to a great level, there is absolutely nothing but only everything...what does that mean? many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual. (10:51 PM) AEN: not where? (10:51 PM) Thusness: he must feel completely nothing and only the 'concreteness', 'solidness', realness... must feel the 'solidness' and that is things.... that is awareness (10:51 PM) AEN: Oic. Thusness says: many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual. --> huh not where? (10:52 PM) Thusness: there are different level of non-dual experience. feeling crystal clarity and 'no one there' is the same as only the solidness, hardness, sound, vividness, realness. that 'sense of self' must be completely gone. 🙂 you must remember this. (10:55 PM) AEN: oic.. this is like mindfulness rite (10:56 PM) Thusness: so now you know why buddha teach mindfulness? and why advaita din. 🙂 this is important. it is the direct way. you c, the teaching and the practice is in line. (10:57 PM) AEN: oic.. (10:57 PM) Thusness: so non-dual as in no-self. into impermanence and just the manifestation and DO and authenticate this with insight meditation. however it is taught wrongly. 😛 (10:58 PM) AEN: icic (10:58 PM) Thusness: but when one experience deeper and understand better, why buddha taught and said those things will become clear. you will realise that advaita always tok about the Self. but when a person tat is enlightened, he doesn't like to use this word. Self is a by-product. it is the production of thought. (11:00 PM) Thusness: even if you call it Brahman, it is still sinking back to a source. but when one gets clearer and clearer, and know more about manifestation. there is only arising and ceasing of phenomenon according to conditions. that is dharmakaya. it is understood in crystal clarity. (11:02 PM) Thusness: just understand that there is no self until it sinks to the inmost consciousness. and know the different layers of consciousness but do not think that it is different type of consciousness
Reply1mEdited

Mr. C: Today What is the supreme application of the all embracing seal? 12:15 AM Or I guess what is the all embracing seal? I guess the best description for my experience is that there is the same familiar sensations and feelings one would constitute as self. However now they are not seen as that. Also they are not so stable and familiar. Snoovatar Soh: "what is the all embracing seal?" a very profound teaching called mahamudra i can recommend dakpo tashi namgyal's clarifying the natural state a good book excerpts here: Awakeningtoreality http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/11/few-excerpts-from-clarifying-natural.html Resolving That Thoughts and Perceptions are Buddha-Mind www.awakeningtoreality.com xabir Snoovatar Mr. C: Thank you so 🙏 I guess the best description for my experience is that there is the same familiar sensations and feelings one would constitute as self. However now they are not seen as that. Also they are not so stable and familiar. Snoovatar Soh: what is important is that there is experiential realisation that leads to an energetic expansion outwards into all the forms, sounds, radiant universe... such that it is not that you are in here, in the body, looking outwards at the tree, listening the birds chirping from here it is just the trees are vividly swaying in and of itself, luminously without an observer the trees sees themselves the sounds hear itself there is no location from which they are experienced, no vantage point the energetic expansion outward into vivid manifestation, boundless, yet it is not an expansion from a center, there is just no center without such energetic shift it is not really the real experience of no selfxabir Snoovatar Mr. C: I only sometimes have had experiences like this but never permanently Or realizations Snoovatar Soh: no worries just practice the vipassana http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html along with two stanzas of anatta, when insight is clear and there is quality practice things will stabilizexabir Snoovatar Mr. C: Also tilopa mahamudra instruction was super super helpful Okay thank you Snoovatar Soh: ok.. been talking too much online today. gotta go meditate hehe go read the mahamudra link i sent you by dakpo tashi namgyal too
Labels: | edit post
0 Responses
Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)