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Available Translation(s): (Korean) 비개념성의 병 - The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
I was looking back at some posts by Thusness and found one that really summarizes the problems of many people (including me, once, and many others I see in forums)...
Thusness:
(31 October 2010)
Hi Geis,
I 'fear' commenting about other's forum because AEN will create havoc in that forum after that...lol.
Jokes aside but I think it is still too early to say that insight of anatta has arisen. There seem to be a mixing up and a lack of clarity of the following experiences that resulted from contemplating on the topic of no-self:
1. Resting in non-conceptuality
2. Resting as an ultimate Subject or
3. Resting as mere flow of phenomenality
In case 1 practitioners see ‘The seen is neither subjective nor objective.... it just IS....’
In terms of experience, practitioners will feel Universe, Life. However this is not anatta but rather the result of stripping off (deconstructing) identity and personality.
When this mode of non-conceptual perception is taken to be ultimate, the terms “What is”, “Isness”, “Thusness” are often taken to mean simply resting in non-conceptuality and not adding to or subtracting anything from the ‘raw manifestation’. There is a side effect to such an experience. Although in non-conceptuality, non-dual is most vivid and clear, practitioners may wrongly conclude that ‘concepts’ are the problem because the presence of ‘concepts’ divides and prevent the non-dual experience. This seems logical and reasonable only to a mind that is deeply root in a subject/object dichotomy. Very quickly ‘non-conceptuality’ becomes an object of practice. The process of objectification is the result of the tendency in action perpetually repeating itself taking different forms like an endless loop. This can continue to the extent that a practitioner can even ‘fear’ to establish concepts without knowing it. They are immobilized by trying to prevent the formation of views and concepts. When we see ‘suffering just IS’, we must be very careful not to fall into the ‘disease’ of non-conceptuality.
In Case 2 it is usual that practitioners will continue to personify, reify and extrapolate a metaphysical essence in a very subtle way, almost unknowingly. This is because despite the non-dual realization, understanding is still orientated from a view that is based on subject-object dichotomy. As such it is hard to detect this tendency and practitioners continue their journey of building their understanding of ‘No-Self based on Self’.
For Case 3 practitioners, they are in a better position to appreciate the doctrine of anatta. When insight of Anatta arises, all experiences become implicitly non-dual. But the insight is not simply about seeing through separateness; it is about the thorough ending of reification so that there is an instant recognition that the ‘agent’ is extra, in actual experience it does not exist. It is an immediate realization that experiential reality has always been so and the existence of a center, a base, a ground, a source has always been assumed. This is different from 'deconstructing of identity and personality' which is related to non-conceptuality but 'actual' seeing of the non-existence of agent in transient phenomena.
Here practitioners will not only feel universe as in case 1 but there is also an immediate experience of our birth right freedom because the agent is gone. It is important to notice that practitioners here do not mistake freedom as ‘no right or wrong and remaining in a state of primordial purity’ ; they are not immobilized by non-conceptuality but is able to clearly see the ‘arising and passing’ of phenomena as liberating as there is no permanent agent there to ‘hinder’ the seeing. That is, practitioner not only realize ‘what experience is’ but also begin to understand the ‘nature’ of experience.
To mature case 3 realization, even direct experience of the absence of an agent will prove insufficient; there must also be a total new paradigm shift in terms of view; we must free ourselves from being bonded to the idea, the need, the urge and the tendency of analyzing, seeing and understanding our moment to moment of experiential reality from a source, an essence, a center, a location, an agent or a controller and rest entirely on anatta and Dependent Origination.
In my opinion, the blog that hosts the articles on “Who am I” and “Quietening the Inner Chatter” provide more in depth insights on non-duality, Anatta and Emptiness. The author demonstrates very deep clarity of ‘what experience is’ and the ‘nature (impermanent, empty and dependent originates according to supporting conditions)’ of experience.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
Thusness:
(31 October 2010)
Hi Geis,
I 'fear' commenting about other's forum because AEN will create havoc in that forum after that...lol.
Jokes aside but I think it is still too early to say that insight of anatta has arisen. There seem to be a mixing up and a lack of clarity of the following experiences that resulted from contemplating on the topic of no-self:
1. Resting in non-conceptuality
2. Resting as an ultimate Subject or
3. Resting as mere flow of phenomenality
In case 1 practitioners see ‘The seen is neither subjective nor objective.... it just IS....’
In terms of experience, practitioners will feel Universe, Life. However this is not anatta but rather the result of stripping off (deconstructing) identity and personality.
When this mode of non-conceptual perception is taken to be ultimate, the terms “What is”, “Isness”, “Thusness” are often taken to mean simply resting in non-conceptuality and not adding to or subtracting anything from the ‘raw manifestation’. There is a side effect to such an experience. Although in non-conceptuality, non-dual is most vivid and clear, practitioners may wrongly conclude that ‘concepts’ are the problem because the presence of ‘concepts’ divides and prevent the non-dual experience. This seems logical and reasonable only to a mind that is deeply root in a subject/object dichotomy. Very quickly ‘non-conceptuality’ becomes an object of practice. The process of objectification is the result of the tendency in action perpetually repeating itself taking different forms like an endless loop. This can continue to the extent that a practitioner can even ‘fear’ to establish concepts without knowing it. They are immobilized by trying to prevent the formation of views and concepts. When we see ‘suffering just IS’, we must be very careful not to fall into the ‘disease’ of non-conceptuality.
In Case 2 it is usual that practitioners will continue to personify, reify and extrapolate a metaphysical essence in a very subtle way, almost unknowingly. This is because despite the non-dual realization, understanding is still orientated from a view that is based on subject-object dichotomy. As such it is hard to detect this tendency and practitioners continue their journey of building their understanding of ‘No-Self based on Self’.
For Case 3 practitioners, they are in a better position to appreciate the doctrine of anatta. When insight of Anatta arises, all experiences become implicitly non-dual. But the insight is not simply about seeing through separateness; it is about the thorough ending of reification so that there is an instant recognition that the ‘agent’ is extra, in actual experience it does not exist. It is an immediate realization that experiential reality has always been so and the existence of a center, a base, a ground, a source has always been assumed. This is different from 'deconstructing of identity and personality' which is related to non-conceptuality but 'actual' seeing of the non-existence of agent in transient phenomena.
Here practitioners will not only feel universe as in case 1 but there is also an immediate experience of our birth right freedom because the agent is gone. It is important to notice that practitioners here do not mistake freedom as ‘no right or wrong and remaining in a state of primordial purity’ ; they are not immobilized by non-conceptuality but is able to clearly see the ‘arising and passing’ of phenomena as liberating as there is no permanent agent there to ‘hinder’ the seeing. That is, practitioner not only realize ‘what experience is’ but also begin to understand the ‘nature’ of experience.
To mature case 3 realization, even direct experience of the absence of an agent will prove insufficient; there must also be a total new paradigm shift in terms of view; we must free ourselves from being bonded to the idea, the need, the urge and the tendency of analyzing, seeing and understanding our moment to moment of experiential reality from a source, an essence, a center, a location, an agent or a controller and rest entirely on anatta and Dependent Origination.
In my opinion, the blog that hosts the articles on “Who am I” and “Quietening the Inner Chatter” provide more in depth insights on non-duality, Anatta and Emptiness. The author demonstrates very deep clarity of ‘what experience is’ and the ‘nature (impermanent, empty and dependent originates according to supporting conditions)’ of experience.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
----------
Update 2021:
- Din RobinsonI would say more that nothing can really be known but Being is an absolute that needs no knowing of it since knowing appears in it, as it
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Din Robinson
and if you think I know what I'm talking about, I don't, I'm just making it up as I go along...
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
John
Tan and I are "against" "don't know mind". In fact usually it refers to
a state of marigpa (ignorance) called the indeterminancy of alaya. (see
next post)
[14/5/18, 9:56:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anyway she asked dae Kwang who let’s go
[14/5/18,
9:57:07 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Dae Kwang said precisely, he ask her back I
think she said don’t know then he say correct, even Buddha’s don’t know,
this don’t know is Buddha nature
[14/5/18, 9:57:22 AM] John Tan: Nonsense
[14/5/18, 9:57:42 AM] Soh Wei Yu: What nonsense?
[14/5/18, 9:58:01 AM] John Tan: Such half past six answers is not zen
[14/5/18, 9:58:08 AM] John Tan: Degraded
[14/5/18, 9:58:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oh but also he say
[14/5/18, 9:58:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Heart Sutra no eyes no nose no... etc
[14/5/18, 9:58:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Then he ask what is no eyes
[14/5/18, 9:58:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He ask someone he doesn’t know
[14/5/18, 9:58:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He say wall is white
[14/5/18, 9:59:46 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung sahn always emphasise don’t know
[14/5/18, 9:59:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think it’s just non conceptuality
[14/5/18, 9:59:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I mean the don’t know part
[14/5/18, 9:59:57 AM] John Tan: I know
[14/5/18, 10:00:29 AM] John Tan: This is a disease rather than wisdom
[14/5/18, 10:01:44 AM] John Tan: What "don't know" points to is "non-conceptual" functioning.
[14/5/18,
10:03:30 AM] John Tan: Lack of investigation and stable insights we
will not be able to distinguish stable insights of non-conceptual
functioning from "conceptual releasing".
[14/5/18, 10:04:20 AM] John Tan: Originally I wanted to tell tan jui Hong but dun want to talk too much.
[14/5/18, 10:05:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18,
10:05:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I think u shld tell jui.. anyway jui has
realised anatta I think might be into total exertion but not sure
[14/5/18, 10:06:15 AM] John Tan: Next time
[14/5/18, 10:06:21 AM] John Tan: Is he Singaporean
[14/5/18,
10:09:06 AM] John Tan: Freeing from reified constructs is a whole new
world of practice. That is "don't know mind" starts from there.
[14/5/18, 10:14:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean jui?
[14/5/18, 10:14:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya jui is singaporean, u met before
[14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18, 10:14:37 AM] John Tan: Yes
[14/5/18, 10:14:40 AM] John Tan: Ic
[14/5/18,
10:23:21 AM] John Tan: Also understanding reified constructs and
experiencing reified constructs in oneself is the most crucial aspect.
[14/5/18, 10:24:31 AM] John Tan: That is the first part of an anatta is key to understanding grasping.
[14/5/18, 10:25:25 AM] John Tan: Only when we understand constructs and reification, can we understand grasping.
[14/5/18, 10:27:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[14/5/18, 10:27:49 AM] John Tan: So understanding mental constructs r very imp
[14/5/18, 10:28:11 AM] John Tan: That includes the energy and mind-body reactions
[14/5/18, 10:32:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[14/5/18, 10:46:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: image omitted
[14/5/18, 10:46:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Overemphasize non conceptual I think
[14/5/18, 10:48:17 AM] John Tan: That is lack of insight and investigation
[14/5/18,
10:49:16 AM] John Tan: Means due to lack of working with conceptual
mind, the "reasons" and the "way" isn't appropriately expressed
[14/5/18, 10:49:33 AM] John Tan: There is the beauty of mathematics
[14/5/18, 10:49:59 AM] John Tan: Like calculus to understand complex movement and rate of change
[14/5/18, 10:51:03 AM] John Tan: There is glendin that can express total exertion and anatta properly.
[14/5/18, 10:51:52 AM] John Tan: There r energies, prana, awareness teachings of functionality not due to "conceptualities"
[14/5/18,
10:54:06 AM] John Tan: What just "don't know mind". By doing that, he
has caused confusion in himself and others due to lack of investigation.
The way of non-conceptual function is not to be solved by mind.
[14/5/18, 11:13:12 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. not to be solved by the mind but by what way?
[14/5/18, 11:15:23 AM] John Tan: By the "don't know mind" they r talking
[14/5/18, 11:15:37 AM] John Tan: The problem is they do not know
[14/5/18, 11:15:39 AM] John Tan: Lol
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
On
how "Don't Know Mind" is actually a state of ma-rigpa (or at most the
coarse form of unripened rigpa), Mipham Rinpoche puts it nicely:
quote:
"In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which
discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa
(“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it
and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is
called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say
what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is
thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of
apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state
within the ālaya."
Contra
rigpa (knowledge): "Although there is no dualistic separation here
between an experience and an experiencer, still the mind is certain
about its own true nature, and there is a sense that, “There is nothing
whatsoever beyond this.” When this occurs, because you can not
conceptualize it or express it in words, it is acceptable to apply such
terms as: “free from all extremes”, “beyond description”, “the
fundamental state of clear light” and “the pure awareness of rigpa.”
As
the wisdom of recognizing your own true nature dawns, it clears away
the blinding darkness of confusion, and, just as you can see clearly the
inside of your home once the sun has risen, you gain confident
certainty in the true nature of your mind."
LOTSAWAHOUSE.ORG
A Lamp to Dispel Darkness
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
And
likewise, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and many other teachers pointed out that
rigpa is marked by certainty. I have said likewise in my journal.
Absolute Certainty
"First,
acknowledging it is called recognizing one's nature. Next, we must be
decisive about what is recognized. This is more complicated, because who
really decides? Is it conceptual mind that settles it? Or is it rigpa
itself that decides? or is it your teacher who makes up your mind - "The
guru said so, so it must be true"? Or will modern technology validate
it for you? Could you go to the Rigpa Lab and check your heart and brain
with instruments to decide if your rigpa is fine and fit, if your
nonduality is in good shape?
How
do you resolve this point? It may be tough to have to immediately
endorse your own experience, but we can decide upon it if we feel even
60 percent confident that it's actually rigpa. As the basis for
verifying, we use our teacher's words, the words of an authentic
scripture, and our own experience. When our state of experiencing rigpa
really is rigpa, there is within that an automatic feeling of certainty.
To arrive at that certainty you need to give some time to the process,
and you also need to have passion. There is a point at which the
certainty is built-in, automatic certainty. Once we get to this natural,
unshakable certainty, we feel so sure that even if the Buddha himself
came before us and said, "Hey, you're wrong, it's not rigpa!" we would
thank him for coming, but it would not change our certainty at all. At a
certain point the qualities of empty essence, cognizant nature, and
unconfined capacity become so utterly obvious that we really know. At
this point, we have gained the certainty that whatever occurs in our
minds can be freed by itself."
- Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World
Labels: Tsoknyi Rinpoche |
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Absolute Certainty
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
And likewise John Tan said in the quote above,
"I
think I mentioned I am not into without view. The freeing from seeing
through self is not a form of "not knowing", contrary it is deep wisdom
that allows one to understand our nature directly.”"
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"However
due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see
through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by
dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through
mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-pure...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Anatta and Pure Presence
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
[30/9/17,
10:50:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The he Say open mouth already wrong. Cut off
thinking.. then he use the Zen stick hit the floor.. is the mind and The
hit same or different? Answer is just hit. No inside outside etc..
where you come from.. where does the one return to etc. All just hit.
But after the interview I hear they discussing among themselves do u
understand? They all just shrug, dunnu what the Teacher talking about
[30/9/17, 10:55:20 PM] John Tan: Zen is a non verbal expression of suchness
[30/9/17, 10:56:00 PM] John Tan: Attending to express in the most direct and intuitive way the actualization of anatta
[30/9/17, 10:57:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[30/9/17, 10:57:12 PM] John Tan: But the extreme of it is the insight will prevent further insights
[30/9/17, 10:57:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Cos falling into non conceptual disease?
[30/9/17,
10:58:32 PM] John Tan: And actualization is on-going...After the koan
an, one has to mature oneself to embrace both side of the coins...
[30/9/17, 10:59:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What are the both sides?
[30/9/17, 10:59:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: View and nondual experience?
[30/9/17, 10:59:37 PM] John Tan: Yes
[30/9/17, 10:59:52 PM] John Tan: Non-verbal direct experience is important
[30/9/17, 11:00:05 PM] John Tan: Only the over emphasis is the issue
[30/9/17, 11:00:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[30/9/17,
11:01:52 PM] John Tan: Too much emphasis on just non-verbal stuff will
prevent one from further insights into our nature as the mind can't
clearly see
[30/9/17,
11:02:59 PM] John Tan: But too much analysis and thinking is a grave
obstruction to energy and intuitive felt sense practice 
[30/9/17, 11:03:05 PM] John Tan: Have to balance
[30/9/17, 11:16:37 PM] John Tan: Sat chit Ananda can b a very refined stage too
[30/9/17, 11:16:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like different stages of I amness?
[30/9/17, 11:17:04 PM] John Tan: Yes
[30/9/17, 11:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[30/9/17,
11:17:58 PM] John Tan: Just don't like to say I hv experience this and
that...lol. ... Too old to go into debate anymore...
[30/9/17, 11:18:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[30/9/17,
11:19:46 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Just now he ask the question what is the one
clear thing beyond life and death even before interview.. then I sat on
the question and just experienced blissful being ness. Like beingness is
blissful... actually anything nondual is blissful that’s why breathing
can also be incredibly blissful
[30/9/17, 11:21:27 PM] John Tan: Yes but u R in anatta or total exertion or non-obstruction self arising phenomenon
[30/9/17, 11:21:42 PM] John Tan: Or in silence?
[30/9/17, 11:22:05 PM] John Tan: Or in non-dual awareness?
[30/9/17, 11:22:14 PM] John Tan: All are non dual
[30/9/17, 11:22:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[30/9/17,
11:22:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Depends on the question I think, like before
birth who am I leads to more like silent being, just mind
[30/9/17, 11:23:22 PM] John Tan: Just I M
[30/9/17, 11:23:46 PM] John Tan: fully into beingness
[30/9/17, 11:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya
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Din Robinson
hi Soh Wei Yu,
I would appreciate if you could talk to me directly without using
quotes and tell me what you are saying in as few words as possible
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
The
key to liberation is deeper and deeper insights into anatta and
emptiness. Not just resting in a state of non conceptuality or “not
knowing”.
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Din Robinson
thanks you, that was very concise 
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Also related:
The Trap of Non-Conceptuality
Also see: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality
For
me, the idea that conceptuality is a trap is actually a trap itself
that depletes the potential of spiritual practice. It entails throwing
away a very valid dimension of experience - after all, thinking is part
of reality as well. And since it is thinking that creates the illusion
of duality, it is at the level of thought that illusions must be
dismantled. At the level of "reality" there is nothing to be done.
"Observe
and see" [which is the only instruction you say you follow,] is also
doing something. A spiritual path without instructions is not a path.
And from the moment there are instructions, all of them may be valid,
depending on the practitioner.
The
neo-Advaita has this characteristic of tending to be nihilistic in
relation to the path and means of liberation. "There is no one, there is
nothing that needs to be done." This reveals a profound
misunderstanding concerning the nature of experience: Everything happens
in experience, even without an agent to perform it - the spiritual path
is no exception.
The
simplicity of "not thinking" is a comfortable nest that prevents us
from asking important and bothersome questions. There is "presence" in
the act of observation, but that presence has to be investigated in
order to make its nature known. Otherwise, we are substituting a belief -
in the self - for another - in some immutable and eternal presence.
Both ego and presence are obvious and undeniable for those who establish
them.
Buddhism
also dissolves all concepts, but only when they have already done their
job of deconstructing all concepts. "Silencing" conceptuality too soon
is to throw away the ladder (of analytical thinking) before we've used
it to go beyond the wall (of conceptual ignorance).
– Andre A. Pais
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Trap of Non-Conceptuality
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Comments by Soh:
Hence, the realization of anatman is not merely a state of suspending concepts, which does not confer the prajna wisdom that puts an end to ignorance.
"The process of eradicating avidyā (ignorance) is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought, but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge, but a specific misconception, and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein, Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of 'inherent existence' merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there, so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance." - Napper, Elizabeth, 2003, p. 103"
It is an insight, realization, eureka moment of actually seeing and realizing the nature of mind:
"'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness." - Kyle Dixon, 2014
