Also see: Difference Between Thusness Stage 1 and 2 and other Stages

Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta

No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight

Session Start: Saturday, March 14, 2009

(11:50 PM) AEN:    'Nevertheless it is a very key phase'
u mean very important key phase?
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    yeah
(11:52 PM) AEN:    icic..
btw wats the difference between stage 4 and 5 other than stabilizing non dual
(11:54 PM) Thusness:    u need to face the problem to know
it is not in words
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    because u have not experienced non-division
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    so u do not know what is non divison
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    what is no-doership and what is no agent in experience
(11:56 PM) Thusness:    and it is difficult to know what is that 'marks' that prevent the experience of spontaneity
(11:56 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    there is a difference seeing thinker/thoughts as one
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    and hearer/sound as one
then sound is awareness, no hearer
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    stage 4 is more like hearer/sound as one
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    that is why i said one thought, then another thought
just like u, u said u feel like an open space
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    then u hear sound
sound and awareness seem to be one
(11:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    indistinguishable but u cannot have that experience that there is only sound
only in logic u have but not in experience
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    until one day u mature that experience
(12:01 AM) AEN:    icic..
just now i saw a website from truthz's blog lists
i mean not truthz's blog but the blog link appeared in his
(12:02 AM) AEN:
Correct Understanding - the first of the eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path - arises out of noticing the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and impersonal nature of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile objects. When all these phenomena are realized to be not self, the mind will turn inwards, seeking out what it might cling to as ‘me’. But if it looks with absolute clarity it will find emptiness. Behind sensations, feelings, thoughts, and consciousness, there lies clear, endless space. I sometimes call it ‘Buddha Space’.
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    yeah
that is wrong view.
(12:05 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    it is very difficult to see the truth of this until our insight matures
even at stage 4, it can be difficult but it is already the first steps towards anatta
(12:06 AM) AEN:    difficult to what
see anatta?
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    yeah
(12:06 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:07 AM) Thusness:    u must see the no agent
not only no division
(12:07 AM) Thusness:    like i told u there are 3 stages
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    later into just this non-dual luminosity
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    if u ask non-dualists, they will not realise that they are an arising thought
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    like what jeff foster said
(12:09 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:10 AM) Thusness:    they will feel damn ultimate
(12:10 AM) AEN:    ic..
like brahman
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    yes so they see self
not events, process phenomena
(12:12 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    they see brahman, not sunyata
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    even the experiences are very similar
the insight has not matured into anatta
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    like shingon sort of practice, the experience can be said to be maha like
but it is not the maha sort of experience i am talking about
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    it is oneness sort of experience
but it is a stage
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    what i said is oneness is always there
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    when one realises that presence is always a manifestation and full embodiment of interconnectedness
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    no effort needs to be done to induce a maha experience

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    there are few conditions to experience maha as a ground
(12:23 AM) Thusness:    1. mature in non-dual experience
2. DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) Thusness:    3.  experience and understand that 'interconnectedness' is the universe itself
then 'self' and even non dual becomes quite irrelevant
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    in fact now presence is not understand as non-dual to me.
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    but as DO
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    where non-dual is already included



(11:46 PM) Thusness:    Does ken (Ken Wilber) talk about anatta
(11:46 PM) AEN:    no
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    Or Advaita sort of understanding
(11:47 PM) AEN:    advaita (Ken Wilber is at Thusness Stage 4)
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    Then y u kept asking me.
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    What is anatta?
(11:48 PM) AEN:    ya but wat i mean is nondual experience is not as in stage 2 type of passing experience, but as everpresent reality?
(11:48 PM) AEN:    anatta is no agent and dependent origination?
(11:48 PM) Thusness:    Didn't I tell u understanding non-dual experience as verb. (Soh: refer to my article The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind)
(11:48 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:49 PM) Thusness:    Not an entity that is independent and unchanging?
(11:49 PM) AEN:    but ken wilber say "You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found."
(11:50 PM) AEN:    *oic
(11:50 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual experience is there is clarity of no separation (As in Thusness Stage 4)
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    Stage 2 is there is merging
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    As if I dissolved and merge..
(11:51 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    There r two, dual
(11:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    Non-dual is there never was a separation
(11:52 PM) Thusness:    No split
(11:53 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness:    There is no separate I.
(11:53 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:53 PM) Thusness:    But this awareness is still very much constant, permanent and unchanging
(11:54 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:54 PM) Thusness:    Anatta goes further and understand exactly what is non-dual experience
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    This is a break-through in insight
(11:55 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:55 PM) AEN:    its about discerning it as DO?
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    There is thinking, no thinker
(11:55 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    Seen no seer
(11:56 PM) Thusness:    Sound no hearer
(11:56 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:56 PM) Thusness:    Understood becoming no being
(11:56 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:57 PM) Thusness:    Understand that object@
(11:57 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    Object/subject is the result of compartmentizing 'verb'
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    Action
(11:59 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    Thinking becomes thinker and thoughts
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    That is anatta
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    It is the direct experience that there is no thinker, just thoughts
(12:01 AM) Thusness:    In seeing, always only the seen.
(12:01 AM) AEN:    is this wat u mean by nondual yet permanent (for ken wilber):

You are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the reflections, standing back and watching. You are everything that is arising moment to moment. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp, it is so small, and you can taste the sky without moving an inch.
(12:01 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness:    Yes what I called desync of view and non-dual experience
(12:04 AM) Thusness:    When insight arises, there is no desync
(12:04 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    Non-dual experience is clearly understood because there never was one.
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    It is always only manifestation
(12:06 AM) AEN:    there never was what?
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    DO is the operation mechanism of the Transience
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    A self
(12:06 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:10 AM) Thusness:    It is very difficult to have such clarity
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    Only Buddha has it
(12:11 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    Even buddhist practitioners have so much mis-conceptions
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    They can't see how consistent and precise the teaching is
(12:13 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:14 AM) AEN:    btw this is not yet nondual experience rite, more like I AM?:
(12:14 AM) AEN:    "the world moves forward as it is..... but instead of seeing the diversity as the ulitmate the One underneath it all is rested in..... Like the ocean reality or maya is simply the surface waves of moving consciousness.... shakti which manifests the underlying Ocean of Consciousness into a limited visible form..... But what is beneath and around and within that form is simply the same consciousness which comprises the Whole of the Ocean.... But in the calm of the depths you know the vastness instead of the limited......"
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:16 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    Under the influence of the 'bond' without knowing it
(12:17 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    Stage 1 to 6 cannot be skipped
(12:17 AM) AEN:    wat do u mean
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    Best experienced that way.
(12:18 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    A practitioner cannot skip stages
(12:18 AM) AEN:    but buddhist path skips some rite
(12:18 AM) AEN:    like dharma dan never go through 'i am'
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    Yes
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    the depth of clarity will not be there
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    Like grimnexus see 4 same as 5.
(12:20 AM) Thusness:    But a person that undergone knows clearly.
(12:21 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:21 AM) AEN:    ya he tot its the same
(12:21 AM) AEN:    btw grimnexus at stage 4 rite
(12:21 AM) Thusness:    Like ken and Ajahn amaro, seems the same but even Ajahn Amaro thought it is the same.
(12:21 AM) AEN:    long time nv see him online liao, he like never came online for many months
(12:21 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:21 AM) Thusness:    Why u worry so much abt others ppl stage?
(12:22 AM) AEN:    lol
(12:23 AM) Thusness:    Rather pray hard that u will not be misled and go through countless lives of rebirth again
(12:23 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:23 AM) Thusness:    What u must have is to correctly discern
(12:24 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    If u want to hv clarity of the essence of the six phases, discern and understand correctly.
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    What if I m no more around?
(12:25 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    If Ajahn Amaro cannot know the diff, much less is others
(12:26 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:26 AM) AEN:    dharma dan leh
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    Rather ask urself have u correctly understood then abt others
(12:27 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness:    How I know?
(12:27 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:27 AM) Thusness:    U kept asking abt others, I worry more abt u.
(12:27 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:28 AM) Thusness:    If u know, u will be able to know r they there.
(12:28 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:29 AM) Thusness:    Like ken and Ajahn Amaro clearly have same experience but different understanding
(12:29 AM) Thusness:    David loy treat them the same too.
(12:29 AM) Thusness:    Not realizing the differences
(12:30 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    So have the right understanding
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    One is abiding, the other is non-abiding
(12:32 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    One is still efforting, the other is effortless
(12:32 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:33 AM) Thusness:    One is Brahman, the other is DO
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    One is mirror, the other is pure manifestation
(12:34 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:36 AM) Thusness:    'Self' is grasped unknowingly because it is independent, changeless
(12:36 AM) Thusness:    Therefore they can't treasure the Transience
(12:37 AM) Thusness:    They can't c conditions
(12:37 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:37 AM) Thusness:    The Transience and conditions are most sacred
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    How can Self c this?
(12:38 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    But one must know the emptiness nature of Transience, unfindable and ungraspable
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    And rises when condition is
(12:40 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:40 AM) Thusness:    When we say attributes, we r referring to the empty nature of awareness
(12:41 AM) AEN:    wat u mean
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    But awareness is full of colors
(12:41 AM) AEN:    u mean attributelessness?
(12:41 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    Like 'redness' of a flower
(12:42 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:42 AM) Thusness:    But to advaitins, it is absence
(12:42 AM) Thusness:    Nothing to do with awareness
(12:43 AM) AEN:    u mean they see awareness as formless?
(12:43 AM) Thusness:    yes
(12:43 AM) AEN:    icic
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    Means absence of attributes as colorless, formless
(12:44 AM) Thusness:    But what buddhism is referring is its emptiness nature
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Not that there is a real formless entity
(12:45 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:45 AM) Thusness:    Awareness is appearances appearing when condition is
(12:46 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:46 AM) Thusness:    awareness is not free of thoughts
(12:46 AM) Thusness:    To advaitins, it is.
(12:47 AM) Thusness:    To buddhist practitioner, thought is awareness
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    One thought arises
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    Next one
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    Like what Ajahn Amaro said
(12:48 AM) Thusness:    There is no worry abt no thought, no conceptuality
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    All will be experienced in their most vivid forms
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    I got to go now.
(12:49 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:49 AM) AEN:    ok gd nite
(12:49 AM) Thusness:    Nite


In early 2010, before I realised anatta:

(11:12 PM) Thusness: u r using stage 4 understanding to explain 6
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) Thusness: i am not interested in views
only the insight that allows u to understand the right view
(11:14 PM) Thusness: that is in phase 4, 'non-dual' is the insight
in phase 5, that observer is gone
(11:15 PM) Thusness: there is not only no 'in' here or out 'there' not because it is non-dual, but because there is no such observer at all.
(11:15 PM) Thusness: that is the 'insight' that must arise
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) Thusness: just like what dharma dan said

(11:23 PM) Thusness: u do not deny subjective or object reality
(11:24 PM) Thusness: they are only provisional and conventional
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: but when the dualistic and inherent hears the term 'non-dual', they either visualize the 2 becoming one or 'you have become me'...
(11:25 PM) Thusness: because this is how a mind that is trapped would think despite the experience
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:27 PM) Thusness: for what that is beyond the four extremes cannot be expressed adequately using language
so what that is important is the insights
(11:27 PM) Thusness: and see how one expresses these insights
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness: like joan tollifson
it is the direct experience
there is no view about it
(11:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: means a practitioner will only experience hardness, softness, intentions, scenery, sound
no self
(11:30 PM) Thusness: action
(11:31 PM) Thusness: but conventionally, u r still u, i am still me
(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no such thing as u r me
get it?
(11:32 PM) Thusness: or there is an awareness that is sound
or all is just this awareness
there is no such concept
(11:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:33 PM) Thusness: there is sound, sight, thoughts
(11:33 PM) Thusness: and what u call awareness are just that
(11:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) AEN: ya i talked about it in
(11:35 PM) Thusness: yeah but ur mind is thinking some awareness
or all are just this awareness
(11:35 PM) AEN: oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: this is a dualistic way of understanding
though experience is non-dual
that is phase 4
(11:36 PM) AEN: sorry i mean post #126
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating winter as spring and spring as autumn
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating fire as becoming ashes
(11:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: get it?
although u said that sound is awareness, u r still treating it as that.
(11:37 PM) Thusness: as if winter becomes spring
or winter is spring
(11:38 PM) Thusness: get it?
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness: it is different
for example dharma dan said there is just sensations, thoughts...the aggregates. whether super awareness or awareness. it is different from saying sensation is awareness, thoughts is awareness as if awareness has become thoughts
3 Responses
  1. Anonymous Says:

    This is the same as surrender,surrender to what is ....

  2. Anonymous Says:

    The Wanderer

    I have traveled so far
    And for so long
    That none could conceive it possible.

    My Journey of aeons and lifetimes
    Has taken me through
    Crystal palaces of exquisite splendor
    Where I played with courtesans
    The likes of which this world
    Has never seen.

    I have led armies into battle
    Been slain and conquered a million times. 

    I have ridden bareback on mythical beasts
    Exploring worlds of unimaginable beauty.
    I've bathed in enchanted pools under cooling moonlight
    And lived with the nymphs who dwell in those places. 

    I have dived to the depths of oceans
    And fought with the mighty beasts
    Who dwell in the deep.

    I have explored the four corners of space,
    Spent lifetimes in silent ecstasy
    Breathing in and out with the stars.

    I have fallen through the earth
    And been held captive in the most cruel of places.
    I have been cut and tormented,
    Had my life ripped away
    And been revived in places of daggers and pain.

    I have been swept along in rivers of molten flame,
    Burned until I could no longer recognize 
    Even my own body. 
    Fought, fought and fought,
    Killed and been killed
    Spending aeons in fear, rage and fury.

    I have taken animal form,
    Run with the wolves
    And howled at the moon in the depths of night.

    I have been killed a million, million times,
    Loved and lost through bitter heart ache
    As my love left me for another life
    More times than I care to recall.

    I have had Sons, Daughters,
    Wives, Husbands, Harems.

    I have lived through the greed of owning one million palaces
    The hatred of murdering one million men
    The love of devoting myself entirely to a precious few.

    The self obsession of the inglorious "I".

    Misery, torment, abandonment,
    Fear, loneliness, isolation, grief... joy.
    I have lived through them all
    I have lived in them all!

    There is not one place in this entire universe I have not visited,
    Or one thing I have not owned...
    And yet, 
    I stand here before you
    Empty handed and alone.
    An old man at the end of his travels,
    Weary of adventure
    And seeking peace...

    A place to call home.

    The road is not less traveled!
    We play this mighty game of life and death
    Never stopping to question
    Or pause to think...

    The question is not "When will it stop?".
    The question is "When will we stop?".
    When will we search for home?
    Listen to that quiet, quiet voice
    Which tells us to be still.
    To awaken.
    To see that,
    From the highest palace,
    To the deepest hell.
    It has all been  - but a dream

    We have been dreaming.

    *Wake up my friends
    and find peace.

  3. Soh Says:


    (10:55 PM) Thusness: when someone surrender and accept, what are they accepting and surrendering?
    (10:56 PM) AEN: everything arising moment to moment
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: yes
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: the moment to moment of manifestation.
    (10:56 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: that spontaneously arises and ceases
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: now is there true acceptance and surrendering?
    (10:57 PM) AEN: yes
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: there isn't.
    (10:57 PM) AEN: how come
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: this is because consciousness works through insight.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: as long as it cannot 'see', it is still bonded.
    (10:58 PM) AEN: orh icic yea so after non dual insight than can accept isnt it.. cos one no longer sees dualistically
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: so deep most in consciousness, it cannot accept with totality.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: so what is true is insight and realisation.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: only when there is true insight, there is spontaneity and liberation.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: what is manifestation?
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is the source.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: what is appearance?
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is our buddha nature.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: Total acceptance is an illusion in the deep most sense. When there is the realisation that manifestation is already the source, there is no surrendering nor acceptance.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: there is just one whole happening.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: any thing extra is doing and propensities.