All is Mind, No Mind
Soh

 

  • Geovani Geo

    19m 
    Everything appearaing in mind as vision is based on an aspect of the seer "out there". That is the real nature of the seen.
    Everything appearaing in mind as sound is based on an aspect of the hearer "out there". That is the real nature of the heard.
    Everything appearaing in mind as touched is based on an aspect of the toucher "out there". That is the real nature of the touched.
    The snake is eating its own tail.

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    That leads to "All is Mind". Then insight must arise into no hearer, no seer, no agent, anatta.
    A distinct insight.
    Excerpt:
    All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
    Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
    Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
    manifesting as everything whatsoever.
    Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
    Naturally manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is confused into a self.
    By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
    May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
    It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
    It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
    This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
    May the ultimate nature of phenomena, limitless mind beyond extremes, he realised.
    If one says, "This is it," there is nothing to show.
    If one says, "This is not it," there is nothing to deny.
    The true nature of phenomena,
    which transcends conceptual understanding, is unconditioned.
    May conviction he gained in the ultimate, perfect truth.
    Not realising it, one circles in the ocean of samsara.
    If it is realised, buddha is not anything other.
    It is completely devoid of any "This is it," or "This is not it."
    May this simple secret, this ultimate essence of phenomena,
    which is the basis of everything, be realised.
    Appearance is mind and emptiness is mind.
    Realisation is mind and confusion is mind.
    Arising is mind and cessation is mind.
    May all doubts about mind be resolved.
    Not adulterating meditation with conceptual striving or mentally created meditation,
    Unmoved by the winds of everyday busyness,
    Knowing how to rest in the uncontrived, natural spontaneous flow,
    May the practice of resting in mind's true nature be skilfully sustained.
    The waves of subtle and coarse thoughts calm down by themselves in their own place,
    And the unmoving waters of mind rest naturally.
    Free from dullness, torpor, and, murkiness,
    May the ocean of shamatha be unmoving and stable.
    Looking again and again at the mind which cannot be looked at,
    The meaning which cannot be seen is vividly seen, just as it is.
    Thus cutting doubts about how it is or is not,
    May the unconfused genuine self-nature he known by self-nature itself.
    Looking at objects, the mind devoid of objects is seen;
    Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
    Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
    May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
    Free from mental fabrication, it is the great seal, mahamudra.
    Free from extremes, it is the great middle way, madhyamika.
    The consummation of everything, it is also called the great perfection, dzogchen.
    Awakening to Reality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Awakening to Reality
    Awakening to Reality

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    • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Jan
    01
    Consciousness as a Mere Name
    Nāgārjuna's Bodhicittavivaraṇa
    39
    The cognizer perceives the cognizable;
    Without the cognizable there is no cognition;
    Therefore why do you not admit
    That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?
    40
    The mind is but a mere name;
    Apart from its name it exists as nothing;
    So view consciousness as a mere name;
    Name too has no intrinsic nature.
    41
    Either within or likewise without,
    Or somewhere in between the two,
    The conquerors have never found the mind;
    So the mind has the nature of an illusion.
    42
    The distinctions of colors and shapes,
    Or that of object and subject,
    Of male, female and the neuter –
    The mind has no such fixed forms.
    43
    In brief the Buddhas have never seen
    Nor will they ever see [such a mind];
    So how can they see it as intrinsic nature
    That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?
    44
    “Entity” is a conceptualization;
    Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;
    Where conceptualization occurs,
    How can there be emptiness?
    45
    The mind in terms of the perceived and perceiver,
    This the Tathagatas have never seen;
    Where there is the perceived and perceiver,
    There is no enlightenment.
    46
    Devoid of characteristics and origination,
    Devoid of substantive reality and transcending speech,
    Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
    Possess the characteristics of non-duality.
    47
    Those abiding in the heart of enlightenment,
    Such as the Buddhas, the great beings,
    And all the great compassionate ones
    Always understand emptiness to be like space.
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    • The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）
    The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论）

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    [8:50 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: For me I have my own way of sorting out my view, experience and insights from Buddhist contexts. Where it starts and stops. I m not a follower of faith.
    [8:50 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whereas certain forms of madhyamika, longchenpa and tsongkhapa dont necessarily buy thus
    [8:51 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Prasangika do not care about mind at all
    [8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Same for me post anatta...
    [8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah in fact post anatta i resonate more with AF than yogacara 🤣
    [8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: It is not that mind is not important in practice..
    [8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Except i see in terms of dependent origination and emptiness now
    [8:53 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In zen though they say there is no mind, they in fact embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can be detected. Yet [Ven.] Sheng Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post anatta, mind and phenomena are completely indisguishable.
    If both mind and phenomena are completely indistinguishable in experience, then distinctions are nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display.
    [8:54 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. btw did sheng yen realise anatta?
    [8:55 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: So you must know when we say no awareness, no self, no I, it doesnt mean nothing. It is seeing through the background construct and open the gate to directly taste, experience and effortless authenticate clarity.
    [8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: I believe so but he did not talk about his experience except the stanza before his death that is beautiful.
    [8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. didnt see his stanza before
    [8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah luminous aggregates
    [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: That are also empty
    [8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: 无事忙中老，空里有哭笑，本来没有我，生死皆可抛” 台湾高僧圣严法师圆寂

  • (Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)

    In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)

    Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)

    Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)) - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/11/differentiate-wisdom-from-art.html

    [8:59 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic...
    [9:10 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Then u can't say phenomena is empty if u resonate with AF. AF is based on the concreteness of phenomena.
    [9:12 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u say u resonate, then emptiness cannot b anywhere resonating at all.
    [9:13 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact just opposite as in the eight similes of illusion.
    [9:25 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I resonate with af in the sense that i do not see an ultimate Self or cosmic mind at all, or one mind or all is mind.. i only see luminous aggregates that are totally exerting as infinitude of universe and time
    [9:26 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But yet not the same as AF because i see the eight examples of illusion as applying to these luminous aggregates
    [9:26 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: There is nothing wrong resonating with AF
    [9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Just that u need to b clear, u can't b neither here nor there.
    [9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Mixing up everything
    [9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Basically like what ted biringer said about existence time except even that is empty
    [9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: So i dont see timeless formless absolute
    [9:30 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u see anatta as de-cosntruction of self, then deconstructing further into object is just a natural progression.
    [9:31 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Unless one is stuck in seeing through self with experience and have insight of no self but did not know the cause of it.
    [9:38 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [10:20 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Do u know e main different between sutrayana and vajrayana?
    [10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm says view are the same but path different
    [10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe vajrayana deals with energy
    [10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: That is e main difference
    [10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [10:26 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact all religions, science, new age or old age...lol ultimately must come to this
    [10:30 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [10:30 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Science also?
    [10:30 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Of course

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    • Geovani Geo
    Author
    Yes, Soh, indeed. The OP was answer to somebody insisting in asking what the "vision of a cat" was based on "outside". I have tried several approaches that did not work. I am curious about how will he react to this one. The dude can notlet go of some "real nature" of things "out there". Understand?
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Who is that guy? Outside AtR?

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    • Geovani Geo
    Author
    Yes.
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Consciousness in Classical Buddhism
Soh

I find this a good read including the text he linked. https://app.box.com/s/jarnprcugpon7fzdj5xt8hif0c6i49y4



https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=36909&p=588086#p588086

Astus:

The suttas are quite clear on the matter that consciousness is one of the aggregates and it is very much impermanent. SN 12.64 itself states that "for the nutriment consciousness, if there is no delight, if there is no craving, consciousness does not become established there and come to growth." (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), that is, there is no consciousness to talk about without nutriment. On the concept of unestablished consciousness mentioned there, see e.g. What the Nikāyas Say and Do not Say about Nibbāna by Bhikkhu Brahmāli, p 47ff.

Also, regarding consciousness, see chapter 4 of Theravada Abhidharma by Y. Karunadasa:

"Early Buddhism recognizes three basic psychological principles. The first is the dependent arising of consciousness, expressed in the well-known saying: “Apart from conditions, there is no arising of consciousness.” (M. I, 256: Aññatra paccayā natthi viññāṇassa sambhavo.) Consciousness is not some kind of potentiality residing in the heart and becoming actualized on different occasions. Nor is it a static entity that runs along and wanders without undergoing any change, a kind of permanent soul entity that transmigrates from birth to birth. (M. I, 256)"

And chapter 5:

"In the Abhidhamma psychology, bare consciousness, that which constitutes the knowing or awareness of an object, is called citta. It can never arise in its true separate condition. It always arises in immediate conjunction with mental factors, the factors that perform more specialized tasks in the act of cognition. In the books of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka the individual nature of consciousness is often sought to be described by positioning it in relation to other basic factors (dhamma) into which individual existence is analyzed.
...
As a basic factor of actuality (dhamma), consciousness is the mere occurrence due to conditions. (VsmṬ. 462: Yathāpaccayaṃ hi pavattimattam etaṃ sabhāvadhammo. See also Abhvk. 116; VśmS. V, 132.) It is not an entity but an activity, an activity without an actor behind it. The point being emphasized is that there is no conscious subject behind consciousness."

For Karunadasa on the subject of nirvana see chapter 10 of Early Buddhist Teachings: The Middle Position in Theory and Practice.

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Astus
Soh

 

There is another forummer in dharmawheel, Astus, who wrote some good posts over the years that John Tan and I liked. His understanding and insight seems to be very much based on anatta.

[4:32 PM, 5/17/2021] John Tan: I just read what is mind in dharmawheel. Astus is anatta and mahamudra whereas Malcolm does not accept thinking without thoughts as a conventional expression. 🤣
[4:33 PM, 5/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Astus has anatta insight?
[4:33 PM, 5/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Didnt pay attention to his posts previously
[4:33 PM, 5/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: What you mean thinking without thoughts
[4:33 PM, 5/17/2021] John Tan: U read u will know. Malcolm adhere strictly to madhyamaka 2 truth but I thought dzogchen is one truth🤣
[4:34 PM, 5/17/2021] John Tan: Thinking without thinker I mean
[4:34 PM, 5/17/2021] John Tan: Also dzogchen has a different definition for experience.
[4:35 PM, 5/17/2021] John Tan: Go read, it is an interesting discussion
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The Touchstone 10: Serenity Is Not Special
Soh

 John Tan: "I really like the expression of this article and the quote from Dogen's Genjokoan. No preference and privileging of either -- water or moon's light; no over emphasis and extrapolation of water into ocean, instead the metaphor of "a single drop of dew dangling from a blade of grass" is used - the maha of vastness sky and radiance of moonlight in a dangling dew drop. So deeply intimate even though it is just a reflection. How long such a reflection will last? just consider the water's depth, the moon's light. Beautiful!"

 

https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/touchstone-10-serenity-not-special

 

 

The Touchstone 10: Serenity Is Not Special

by Ven. Jinmyo Renge sensei

Dainen-ji, June 21st, 2014

At any moment that you recognize that you are lost in thought or are propagating a feeling tone or a state, you can use that recognition as a prompt to come back to the breath and the body, seeing and hearing. Experiencing this moment with the whole body is practising an intimacy of experiencing that comes about only when you simply allow yourself to meet your experiencing as it really is.

Meeting experience as it is might be feeling the breath at the diaphragm and tanden, opening to seeing and hearing while chopping vegetables. It might be opening attention while pulling wads of who-knows-what out of the drain in the kitchen sink because it's not emptying properly. It might be a moment of opening to seeing and hearing and bodily sensation while listening to birdsong as you walk under the canopy of trees on the way to the monastery. Or you might find yourself opening attention while someone nearby is expressing frustration and anger. It might be feeling the breath at the diaphragm and tanden and opening to whole-bodily sensation and seeing and hearing while listening to falling rain, or it might be while measuring out medication for someone who is ill. You don't know, from moment to moment, what will happen, what will need to be done, what someone might say. Yet each moment of your life is a moment of breathing, of feeling, of seeing, of hearing. Each moment is always a moment in which you can simply allow yourself to meet experience intimately.

If you were not practising at all, you might still walk down this street and hear the birdsong and you might still have to pull wads of who-knows-what out of the sink drain when necessary. And you'd still be interacting with other people and their states. But if you are practising, the difference is that you can do each thing you are doing more fully and completely. You can do each task with the whole bodymind instead of doing them with a sense of resentment. You can recognize how your attention is as you do them and choose to release attention into the sensations and colours and forms and the doing of the task instead of recoiling and holding yourself at a distance from it.

Self-image -- or the process of contraction that gives rise to a sense of self -- would much rather think about what's going on than really engage in what is going on. This is because through contraction, the sense of a 'self' sets itself up as the 'knower' of experiencing, as a some 'one' who is separate from what is being experienced.

When you sit zazen you can see this process of contraction and separation quite easily. You might begin by following the instructions to stay with the sensations of the breath and body, to open to seeing and hearing and pay attention to where you are and what is going on. But a few minutes later, you begin to drift into a storyline, in which the sense of self can seem to be at the center of the storyline.

In zazen, again, and again, when you come back to the breath and body, and refresh your practice, you see the storylines fall apart because there is no "one" at the center of experiencing. There is just this moment and the details that present themselves as the exertion of this moment which are constantly changing. Our practice is to release contraction, and instead of recoiling, learn to meet experiencing as it actually is. This is why we begin with this very simple practice of sitting cross-legged in the posture of zazen, opening attention to all of the sense fields instead of ignoring them to pursue internalized states and stances. And this is why, when we practise Anapanasati, or mindfulness of the breath, we come back to the touchstone of the breath, we mark the moment with the touchstone of this breath. We touch the breath and ground ourselves in this moment.

Grounding oneself in this moment doesn't mean hanging on to the moment. It means letting yourself drown in the moment. If you try to hold on to the moment things can get quite complicated. So I will talk about that a little, because it is something that comes up in people's practice at one time or another.

In people's lives there is usually a lot they have to contend with that they don't particularly like. For instance, being bored at work; having to participate in social events they don't want to go to; being immersed in family issues that are not interesting to them.

Zen practice isn't about any of that stuff. But we are instructed to practice while those experiences are going on. So here's where a misunderstanding can creep in.

If you are practising Zen you will see more about your own states. And you will recognize more often when other people are in a state -- because you recognize some of your own. Now, all this stuff that was going on before you started practising - the boredom and arguments and family foibles and all of the rest of it -- that stuff is still going to be going on after you start practising. And what can happen is that you may make the mistake of trying to use your practice as a way of distancing yourself from all this stuff you don't really like.

So, for instance, there is a family member in front of you talking about an issue. It doesn't matter what the issue is. What matters is the stance you might take up relative to that person and the situation. If you recoil instead of releasing, this is not practising. It's taking up a stance about the situation and perhaps about the other person. And if you allow this recoil to continue, it can seem as though you are at a distance from what is being experienced, in a kind of special practice space that they don't share. Because, the story says, you're different. Because, the story says, you practice and they don't and that makes you superior and special. And if you allow this state and its story to continue, you may actually begin to feel quite serene about the whole thing. But what is being mistaken for a sense of serenity is actually a sense of flattening and withdrawal.

I do want to make it very clear that this has nothing to do with practising. This is merely the acting out of various patterns of contraction with a storyline about practice woven through them.

If you are in a social interaction and this comes up, open around it by coming back to the touchstone of the breath and actually do your practice. If you are in that situation it is because you agreed to put yourself in that situation. So be in that situation with the whole bodymind. If you don't wish to experience that sort of thing again, then you can change the activities you engage in. If you are in a relationship or are married, it is because you agreed to that. You can change that, but if you are going to change it then do it. Don't fence-sit, secretly holding yourself at a distance. Fully participate in your life and if you make a change, then fully engage in and take responsibility for that change. Don't use your practice as a way to avoid your life. This is not how a bodhisattva behaves - it is how self-image behaves.

When students make the mistake of recoiling from their own lives, and from the people around them, to some extent they will recognize that this is not good. And they will ask if Zen is devoid of feeling.

No, Zen is not devoid of feeling. If you are really practising, you will feel more, not less. But genuine emotion, real feeling, is a momentary flash. It does not colour or predispose, so it is not something you can hold on to.

In Anzan Hoshin roshi's translation of the Genjokoan, The Question of our Lives, Eihei Dogen Zenji says:

Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting upon water; the moon isn't wet, the water isn't stirred. With all of its radiance, the moon can still be seen in a puddle. Full moon, vast sky, can both be reflected in a single drop of dew dangling from a blade of grass. Enlightenment does not disturb you just as the moon doesn't ruffle the water. You can no more grasp enlightenment than the dew drop can restrain the full moon, the vast sky. As deep as the drop is, so high is the moon. As to how long such a reflection will last, just consider the water's depth, the moon's light.

We cannot grasp enlightenment and we cannot grasp mindfulness. Mindfulness is only mindfulness if we are really allowing ourselves to meet our experience as it actually is in this moment. It's not something we can 'oversee'. We can only enter into it, moment after moment. It penetrates our lives like sunlight through water and the longer and more deeply that we practice, the more transparent we become. And being transparent to experiencing allows us to see that all experiences arise within a much larger space.

To be transparent means that there is absolutely nothing you can hang on to. It means that none of your thoughts are solid, none of your feelings are solid, none of your views or attitudes are solid.

So when you are practising formally or informally, at home or at work, interacting with other people, the same is true. Practise this transparency by coming back to the breath and body, by opening to seeing and hearing, and allow experiencing to present itself to you. With other people, let them be how they are and don't hold yourself separate from them. Again, if you don't want to be with them you don't have to be. But if you ARE with them and this is what you agreed to, then let yourself fully BE in that situation. Don't be half-assed. You can't sit up straight as the Buddhas and Awakened Ancestors if you are half-assed. You need to practise with the whole bodymind, both legs, both feet, both hands, and arms and legs and ears and eyes and the nape of the neck and behind the ears.

You can't do other people's practice for them. Do your own practice. If you just do your own practice, it includes all people that you know, all of the things that you do, all of the colours and forms that you see. In doing your own practice you practise the moment and everything that arises together as the moment. Meet the moment intimately and wordlessly. Don't recoil. Release. In this way you embrace everyone instead of holding everything at a distance.

You can release grasping at them and being entangled by their grasps as well, by embracing them and everything in the intimacy of experience. You are not people's ideas about you and they are not your ideas about them.

Zen practise is not an idea. And it is certainly not the ideas you can have about your practice, many of which are quite contradictory. Zen practice is something that you actually do. And in actually doing it, it does you, it changes you. Not into a special version of you, someone who is not only more spiritual or wise than you were but more wise and spiritual and special than your family and friends. It changes you so that you can live your real life, be a real person instead of a story about yourself, and really meet others beyond your ideas about them. We will explore more of this next time.

Right now, let's sit.

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