I was just reading this article by Abhaya Devi: https://www.wayofbodhi.org/sahaja-yoga-of-saraha/
    And realized that I may have been misinterpreting these kinds of instructions for a while. For example:
    - "Awakening has nothing to do with where you are. Wherever you may be, just turn back and recognize your own mind."
    Why turn "back" if phenomena are (or rather, appear to be) all around us? For me this strengthens the sense of a background.
    - "Free from all conceptuality, leaving the mind in its natural stainless state, bodhi dawns effortlessly."
    This inspires me to search for something stainless. Again, I relax back into the stainless background.
    - "The way we live in Samsara is like looking into a mirror and seeing many forms without seeing the mirror itself."
    But of course there is no such mirror.
    The reason this surprises me is that Abhaya Devi is one of the few Dzogchen teachers that
    Soh
    says has right view. So I'm not sure how to interpret these instructions.
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    Depends. Even Malcolm talked about distinguishing mirror from reflections to realise I AM. But he is also clear about no mirror.
    They are clear about the different phases of realisations.

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    badge icon
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu
    In other words she might be trying to point out I AM in this particular piece?

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    Could be but i need to read more
    Why not you message her
    Im sure both of them [Prabodha and Abhaya Devi] realised anatta. I have read many article from them
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    Also non arising twofold emptiness

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  • Jenny Jennings Foerst
    Aditya Prasad
    , you cannot via intellectualizing them skip over those "steps" in practice. Or let's just say very, very few people have been able to skip over them without deluding themselves.
    Moreover, poetry is method in pointing-out transmission. You are supposed to feel the metaphors, not analyze them.
    This is important.

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  • badge icon
    Author
    Jenny Jennings Foerst Yes, I agree. That's not what's happening here. Each metaphor is useful at a particular stage in practice, but can actually drag one backward if used at the wrong time.

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  • Jenny Jennings Foerst
    Aditya Prasad
    Why would they be "used" at the wrong time? I'm talking about mahamudra. The metaphors cannot drag someone backward if they are related to as poetry.

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    Author
    Jenny Jennings Foerst Well, I've always been overly literal and not very good with poetry 😃.
    The instructions I am working with these days (largely thanks to our mutual friend) emphasize the foreground. For me, right now, instructions to "turn back" or identify something "stainless" reinforce a bad habit I've picked up. I recognize that this may not be so for everyone.

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    Author
    Regarding "stainless," I find this helpful:
    Ven. Jinmyo Renge osho Dainen-ji: "The stainlessness of this moment is not only the fact that colours and forms are as they are or that sensations are as they are; the fact is that this moment cannot be grasped. There is no particular angle that you can take upon this moment because it is too vast and it is constantly changing. You arise within it, I arise within it, we all arise within it."
    Thusness: "The tata is very good. The Stainless is also good but just to be picky... the 'it' must be eliminated... stainlessness is the ungraspable of the arising and passing phenomena. Without essence and locality of any arising... nothing 'within or without it'."
    Stainless
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Stainless
    Stainless

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  • badge icon
    I skimmed through, but it seems an interesting article. Make sure to check the comment section, where the oneness issue, and the comparison to Vedanta, seem to be addressed.
    Oneness without oneness – On Mahasiddha Shavaripa
    WAYOFBODHI.ORG
    Oneness without oneness – On Mahasiddha Shavaripa
    Oneness without oneness – On Mahasiddha Shavaripa

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  • So generally these instructions are given once one is stable in Shine. Which is the stillness aspect of mind isolated from the movement. When one is proficient then one does these instructions, then shine is released.
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  • when you practice shine you are isolating the stillness from movement. so you are watching the movement as if apart from you.
    when that stillness is released then you become the motion itself. so there is no distinction between stillness and motion.
    it's then that you are capturing what the instructions point to.
    when you're isolating a background all you are doing is emphasizing the stillness aspect.
    then you have the issue of movement. movement is an issue. thoughts, sensations, sense perceptions. all of it distracts from the stillness. so there is an inherent duality.
    nonetheless you have to be able to isolate stillness and motion as distinct experiences.
    Dzogchen begins when you release that stillness or background witness.
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    Author
    Albert Hong
    Thanks. I've always understood it a little differently: at first, you are isolating the background, and any movement is a distraction. Then at some point the movement is no longer a distraction -- but you have not exactly "become" the movement. I think of this like I AM, or baby rigpa. Finally, you "become" the movement -- which sounds more like nonduality, or AtR's stage 4, no?
    Looking again, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does indeed say that Dzogchen only begins with the "becoming" (released shiné). If so, then either he does not consider "baby rigpa" to be Dzogchen, or else I am wrong about that second phase being baby rigpa.
    Soh
    .
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  • Aditya Prasad
    the movement doesn't distract because you're absorbed into a concept of stillness. It's very much like putting one's finger over a faucet.
    the issue of motion or movement becomes much more of an issue with Shine. You become super aware of the most subtle currents of motion. Which all distract and irritate.
    One has to release or let go of the focus on one aspect of experience. then presence isn't a thing, but rather endlessly rolling without effort or fixation.
    I don't know much about baby Rigpa to comment on it. From the teachings of Lama Lena, she speaks about how one at first may objectify Rigpa then gradually this deepens.

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    Author
    Albert Hong
    Are we talking about the same thing? I'm not saying that the thoughts don't occur (like a finger over the faucet), but that they don't distract. Movement is not an issue because "that which knows" can never be distracted (in this model). It knows the stillness and movement equally intimately.

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  • I apologize, we could be talking about something else.
    what you're talking about just sounds like basic mindfulness.

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    Author
    Albert Hong
    I'm sure there's some overlap there, but when most people learn basic mindfulness, I don't think they feel like they are (or even have) a timeless, stainless, pure consciousness. At that point, perhaps "turning back" or looking for something "stainless" may be counterproductive. Dunno.

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  • the isolation of a consciousness to look back at is isolating a type of experience.
    turning back is to release that experience. not to create a new ground or space or consciousness. but to end the foci, which always makes subtle or gross objects.
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  • the issue is always making an object and even making Rigpa an object.
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  • Aditya Prasad
    You're right, in Mahamudra they work more or less this way. The advices cited are from different stages
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  • Jenny Jennings Foerst
    Yes,
    Albert Hong
    puts is well. @
    Aditya Prasad
    , you attempt to look back and be interested in "what" is looking. But this emptiness practice is not to establish a background--quite the opposite. The earnest attempt reveals the false polarity of shine and vipassana, so that polarity collapses, deconstructs, which is quite an experience, quite a realization.
    In Mahamudra, one cannot just intellectually bypass the earnest attempt at reflexive "looking." You see, there must be experiential recognition of the impossibility of "background."
    Timelessness is the stillness, silence, and space. Yet the "world" keeps changing. The first is "mind perspective" and the second is "event perspective." When they are integrated, the view is called "simultaneous mind," which is third yoga in Mahamudra.
    Later, there is an end to perspective-taking altogether. But that is after more rounds of deconstruction.

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    Author
    Jenny Jennings Foerst Mixing paths is tricky business (and I probably wouldn't have done it but for the opening I had with Advaita when young). Using your language, once one has mixed the mind and event perspectives, it feels unhelpful to continue to "look back" and try to identify something stainless. There isn't anything stainless (in the sense of being permanent but untouchable) -- and for someone who's been stuck believing so for a long time, using that language can cause its own problems. Luckily I'm getting those instructions (from someone we both know), but I'm "supplementing" with these kinds of teachings, and trying to work out which are relevant at which stages.

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  • Jenny Jennings Foerst
    Aditya Prasad
    Have you stabilized simultaneous mind? Is that what you are saying (among other things)?

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    Author
    Jenny Jennings Foerst Maybe trying to "use your language" wasn't such a good idea after all! To be honest, none of the language or metaphors from the POW retreat connected with me in any way, so I don't want to attempt an answer. Luckily our mutual friend is talented and able to find language that I can relate to. Suffice it to say that "looking back" is not part of my practice right now.

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  • "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."[1]
    "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"
    "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
    Right Effort
    SN 1:1  Ogha-taraṇa Sutta | Crossing over the Flood
    DHAMMATALKS.ORG
    SN 1:1  Ogha-taraṇa Sutta | Crossing over the Flood
    SN 1:1  Ogha-taraṇa Sutta | Crossing over the Flood
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  • Interesting website

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  • Sahaja yoga is Mahamudra, not Dzogchen. And cited Saraha. He is a Mahamudra father. The instructioons are right, the subtleties that confuse you may originate on the translation. They're right Mahamudra advices. But bear in mind that Mahamudra is a progressive path, and every of the four yogas has different instructions.
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  • I have found that by introverting very intensely, one finds a phenomenon that is ontologically "different" from a physical or psychological inner which directly triggers the realization of transpersonal being.
    This is a very fair experiential start for exploring these things having actually got a taste of it.
    It is not about "world-denying". It is simply a pragmatic phenomenological fact that people whose focus and attention entrainment is on the physical in a very limited sense of awareness will not benefit from such ideal things as "the meditation of non-meditation" etc etc.

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    Adrian Brown
    Yes, I can see it being helpful to reach I AM. I'm mostly curious about whether it is helpful beyond that.

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  • Good question, my current position is to say mixed use.
    By "turning inward" you see the roots of how things reify themselves within your own mind for example.
    But that only works if you have the right pointers beforehand or are very conscientious in your exploration and not just rapt away.
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    Turning back from the senses is not helpful to realise anatta. It is for I AM, tracing radiance to the source.
    Bahiya sutta is more useful for anatta.
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Thanks. That's why I love AtR and what you do. I never considered before how following even "very high teachings" might actually hold one back.
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    Abhaya devi is clear about anatta but is pointing people to the I AM first. Just like malcolm and many other zen teachers, etc

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    This article by abhaya devi is about anatta https://www.wayofbodhi.org/bodhidharma-teachings/
    Breaking the Silence – The Teachings of Bodhidharma
    WAYOFBODHI.ORG
    Breaking the Silence – The Teachings of Bodhidharma
    Breaking the Silence – The Teachings of Bodhidharma

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    Both of them (abhaya devi and prabodha) are clear about the thusness seven stages.
    You notice that these teachers who have gone through these phases themselves are open to what john tan wrote. Prabodha even said the seven stages represents essence of buddhism
    Those who do not understand it or gone through it themselves may not resonate

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    Author
    Soh Wei Yu
    Thanks, I'll read it. Right off the bat, though, it's strengthening the I AM for me:
    "He showed how the perception and the perceived never harm the silence of the basic space."

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    Aditya Prasad
    yes. Also it says ordinary people are seeing reflections without seeing the mirror.
    The emphasis here is realise the Mind (I AM)

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    Author
    Soh Wei Yu
    I thought you said the emphasis in this article (the one you just linked about Bodhidharma) was anatta?

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    then the basic space here is not a background:
    “In resting like a mountain, gazing at the empty wall of mind’s nature, he showed how the mind of dualities and conceptual proliferations comes to rest in the basic space of the perception and the perceived1. In moving like a wild goose spreading its wings, he showed how the perception and the perceived never harm the silence of the basic space.”

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    Notice that the basic space here is mere experience free of perceiver and perceived:
    Image may contain: text

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    Thusness, 2013:
    "there is a very intense and much deeper state i assure u...but there is clear understanding that the manifestation is it....however awareness is like an unbounded and limitless expanse field
    the luminosity is intensely clear
    the experience is like Non-Dual Awareness broke lose and exist as a unbounded FIELD
    there is a difference in seeing sound and a hearer and realizing sound as awareness itself
    u cannot focus and there cannot be any sense of effort
    there cannot be any sense of boundaries
    just itself
    u must be very very stable and mature in the anatta state
    and u cannot be in an enclosed room...
    it is the effortlessness and crystal clear transparency and intensity of luminosity...
    but duality must no more trouble the practitioner, phenomena is clearly understood as the radiance...so nothing is obscuring then in total effortless and emanation arises and the expanse just continues"
    On how this differs from one mind:
    "one mind is subsuming
    therefore there is a sense of dual
    in this case there isn't
    it is like a drop of water landed on the surface of a clear ocean. the nature of water and ocean are one and the same...nothing containing anything
    when sounds and music arise...they are like water and waves in ocean...everything is it"
    .......................
    Jackson Peterson wrote about Transparency, the experience and intensity of transparency is important (even though Jax is holding one mind view rather than anatta):
    Transparency
    When sitting, fully relaxed, with no mental topics in mind; consciousness will become ever more clear and sharp.
    At some point the material substance of your head will seem to become clear and transparent, leaving no sense of boundary to awareness.
    Suddenly a shift can happen, such that instead of feeling like a located physical entity, your cognitive nature becomes crystal clear, empty space: a space that co-exists with phenomena, but is timeless and changeless, pervasive presence.
    It’s like being a material entity located within a physical body, in which that localized entity suddenly transforms into space. It’s like consciousness as space had contracted into being a localized contraction of aware space, that suddenly reverted to its status as being empty, borderless space.
    In Dzogchen, this is called “zangtal” or penetrating transparency.
    In this moment it feels like you are the empty space of the universe instead of being a localized “thing” in the universe. All material identifications and psychological self images vanish.
    Imagine there is an infinite ocean of transparent, Clear Light Awareness; which can contract into ice-cube like spheres of localized consciousness. But that contracted consciousness of Clear Light Awareness can suddenly revert to its uncontracted state, its “natural state”.
    Only then do the intrinsic wisdoms of the Clear Light, Natural State, fully unfold.
    -----------------
    Daniel M. Ingram:
    "So you have these two extremes - both of which I find pretty annoying (laughs) - and uhm, not that they are not making interesting points that counterbalance each other. And then, from an experiential point of view, the whole field seems to be happening on its own in a luminous way, the intelligence or awareness seems to be intrinsic in the phenomena, the phenomena do appear to be totally transient, totally ephemeral. So I would reject from an experiential point of view, something in the harshness of the dogma of the rigid no-selfists that can't recognise the intrinsic nature of awareness that is the field. If that makes sense. Cos they tend to feel there's something about that's sort of (cut off?)..."
    Interviewer: "And not only awareness..."
    Daniel: "Intelligence. Right, and I also reject from an experiential point of view the people who would make this permanent, something separate from, something different from just the manifestation itself. I don't like the permanence aspect because from a Buddhist technical point of view I do not find anything that stands up as permanent in experience. I find that quality always there *while there is experience.* Because it's something in the nature of experience. But it's not quite the same thing as permanence, if that makes sense. So while there is experience, there is experience. So that means there is awareness, from a certain point of view, manifestation - awareness being intrinsically the same thing, intrinsic to each other. So while there is experience, I would claim that element (awareness) is there - it has to be for there to be experience. And I would claim that the system seems to function very lawfully and it's very easy to feel that there's a sort of intelligence, ok, cool... ...the feeling of profundity, the feeling of miraculousness, the wondrous component. So as the Tibetans would say, amazing! It all happens by itself! So, there is intrinsically amazing about this. It's very refreshingly amazing that the thing happens, and that things cognize themselves or are aware where they are, manifestation is truly amazing and tuning into that amazingness has something valuable about it from a pragmatic point of view."
    Awakening to Reality
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Awakening to Reality
    Awakening to Reality
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    5/24/2012 8:05 PM: John: But experientially same but just the degree of right understanding
    5/24/2012 8:07 PM: John: Not exactly one mind
    5/24/2012 8:07 PM: John: Do u feel everything as Self now?
    5/24/2012 8:08 PM: John: As in that experience of I M powerfully present at this moment
    5/24/2012 8:09 PM: Soh Wei Yu: yes presence, but as change
    5/24/2012 8:11 PM: John: As if like Awareness clear and open like space, without meditation yet powerfully present and non-dual
    5/24/2012 8:12 PM: John: Where the 4 Aspects of I M r fully experienced in this moment
    5/24/2012 8:14 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
    5/24/2012 8:14 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I think the four aspects is only fully experienced after nondual and anatta, especially effortlessness and no need to abide
    5/24/2012 8:15 PM: John: This experience will become more and more powerful later yet effortless and uncontrieved
    5/24/2012 8:17 PM: John: How so? If it is not correct insights and practice, how is it possible for such complete and total experience of effortless and uncontrieved Presence be possible?
    5/24/2012 8:18 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I do not see it is possible without the proper insights and practice
    5/24/2012 8:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta every activity is it, is buddha nature, so no contrivance at all
    5/24/2012 8:21 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No need to meditate to get anywhere
    5/24/2012 8:21 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But meditation is still important to cultivate certain aspects like tranquility
    5/24/2012 8:22 PM: John: Indeed and this is being authenticated by the immediate moment of experience. How could there be doubt abt it. The last trace of Presence must be released with seeing through the emptiness nature of whatever arises.
    5/24/2012 8:22 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
    5/24/2012 8:25 PM: John: After maturing and integrating ur insights into practice, there must be no effort and action.... The entire whole is doing the work and arises as this vivid moment of shimmering appearance, this has always been what we always called Presence.
    ...
    Thusness, 2012:
    "Has awareness stood out? There is no concentration needed. When six entries and exits are pure and primordial, the unconditioned stands shining, relaxed and uncontrived, luminous yet empty. The purpose of going through the 7 phases of perception shift is for this... Whatever arises is free and uncontrived, that is the supreme path. Whatever arises has never left their nirvanic state... ... your current mode of practice [after those experiential insights] should be as direct and uncontrived as possible. When you see nothing behind and magical appearances are too empty, awareness is naturally lucid and free. Views and all elaborations dissolved, mind-body forgotten... just unobstructed awareness. Awareness natural and uncontrived is supreme goal. Relax and do nothing, Open and boundless, Spontaneous and free, Whatever arises is fine and liberated, This is the supreme path. Top/bottom, inside/outside, Always without center and empty (2-fold emptiness), Then view is fully actualized and all experiences are great liberation."

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    Albert Hong
    tagging you because you asked about transparency

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  • Image may contain: outdoor and nature, text that says '1:24 4G John Tan Oic... right now for me there doesn't seem to be solid objects.. like you say just radiance clarity but not an undifferentiated oneness sense Just now driving around singapore, city seems like I'm experiencing singapore for the first time 6:07 Now I'm meditating at Bedok reservoir PM 6:07PM/ 6:08 PM Good open space like Australia 6:09PM/ Like pure open awareness Lol Without center without boundaries Lol 6:11PM✓'
    • [6:07 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Oic... right now for me there doesn’t seem to be solid objects.. like you say just radiance clarity but not in an undifferentiated oneness sense
      [6:08 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Just now driving around singapore, city seems like I’m experiencing singapore for the first time
      [6:08 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Now I’m meditating at Bedok reservoir
      [6:08 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: 🤣
      [6:09 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Good open space like Australia
      [6:11 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Like pure open awareness
      [6:11 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Lol
      [6:11 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Without center without boundaries
      [6:12 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
      [6:12 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: However it is often misinterpreted as always...something behind
      [6:12 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah..
      [6:14 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Don't hold on to any experience, not the radiance.  Allow the knowledge of emptiness to seemlessly integrate into radiance clarity.
      [6:15 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Let the radiance be as light as feather but immense like universe.
      [6:15 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Don't be intense.
      [6:19 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Oic...
      [6:19 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Today the sense of tightness seems loosening and yet the radiance is still as clear.. I had headache two days ago dunno why
      [6:19 PM, 3/24/2019] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe some tenseness
      [6:19 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Yes
      [6:19 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Because u don't know how to relax
      [6:20 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: U have wrong understanding attempting to focus on intensity unknownly, wanted to feel more
      [6:21 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: Therefore I kept telling u relax, don't hold, be as light as feather and as immense as universe.
      [6:21 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: With practice Awareness will stand out, more braman than braman...lol.
      [6:22 PM, 3/24/2019] John Tan: However that is an emergence effect due to evenness of pristine empty clarity.
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  • Image may contain: text that says '1:24 4G John Tan Good open space like Australia 6:09 Like pure open awareness Lol Without center without boundaries Lol 6:11PM However is often misinterpreted as always...something behind Yeah.. 6:11PM✓ Don't hold on any experience, not the radiance. Allow the knowledge of emptiness to seemlessly integrate into radiance clarity. Let the radiance be as light as feather but immense like universe. Don't be intense. Oic... 6:18PM/ Today the sense of tightness seems loosening and yet the radiance is still as clear.. had headache two days ago dunno why 6:19 Maybe some tenseness 6:19PM/'

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    Dear Atul,
    It is not only about recognizing the reflections as reflections, but also recognizing that there is no mirror (no mind)! Knowing that everything is a projection of mind, is just part of the hundreds and thousands of explanations that lead the disciple. Further, when you directly see and understand (recognize) the nature of yourself, the nature of your own mind, only then you see and truly understand the meaning of even the statement, “everything is projection of mind”.
    Regards,
    Prabodha
    Knowing One Thing Liberates All
    WAYOFBODHI.ORG
    Knowing One Thing Liberates All
    Knowing One Thing Liberates All

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    What's so new about what Richard talks in Actual Freedom?


    I have seen
    Soh Wei Yu
    mentioning AF off and on in different places. So I decided to check out his website at http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/ . First, there was a lot of bashing of all traditional spiritual paths as if they have missed the point that he is talking about, and then he mentions how spiritual paths have not been able to rectify the sorry state of affairs in the world. And then he winds up saying that there is no sorry state of affairs in the world after all, here:

    "The day finally dawns where the definitive moment of being here, right now, conclusively arrives; something irrevocable takes place and every thing and every body and every event is different, somehow, although the same physically; something immutable occurs and every thing and every body and every event is all-of-a-sudden undeniably actual, in and of itself, as a fact; something irreversible happens and an immaculate perfection and a pristine purity permeates every thing and every body and every event; something has changed forever, although it is as if nothing has happened, except that the entire world is a magical fairytale-like playground full of incredible gladness and a delight which is never-ending."

    How is it different from what Nagarjuna says as "Nirvana is Samsara"? or what Gaudapada says, " All Jīvas are, by their very nature illumined from the very beginning" as the final realizations.

    His final realization is put in these words:

    "Thus the search for meaning amidst the debris of the much-vaunted human hopes and dreams and schemes has come to its timely end. With the end of both ‘I’ and ‘me’, the distance or separation between both ‘I’ and ‘me’ and these sense organs – and thus the external world – disappears. To be living as the senses is to live a clear and clean awareness – apperception – a pure consciousness experience of the world as-it-is. Because there is no ‘I’ as a thinker (a little person inside one’s head) or a ‘me’ as a feeler (a little person in one’s heart) – to have sensations happen to them, I am the sensations. The entire affective faculty vanishes ... blind nature’s software package of instinctual passions is deleted. There is nothing except the series of sensations which happen ... not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening ... moment by moment ... one after another. To live life as these sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and magic. Consequently, I am living in peace and tranquillity; a meaningful peace and tranquillity. Life is intrinsically purposeful, the reason for existence lies openly all around. Being this very air I live in, I am constantly aware of it as I breathe it in and out; I see it, I hear it, I taste it, I smell it, I touch it, all of the time. It never goes away – nor has it ever been away – it was just that ‘I’/‘me’ was standing in the way of the meaning of life being apparent."

    I fail to understand how traditional non-dual paths, taken to their end, are talking any different.

    Any thoughts?
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    Comments


    I believe it is merely refinement of the view. Whereas the non dual direct experience of presence is the same. It is a matter of deeply hidden views which obscure and trap the presence.
    And various methods and views work their way to meet such obscurations.
    In the end you suffer or you don't. And that is something you in your unique personal mind stream have to come to terms with.
    I would say that not all paths and views lead to the same arenas.
    But certainly specific practitioners within their respective lineages definitely meet in similar arenas.
    But all of it is imho not really relevant.
    Either you are uncontrived and totally free from suffering, or you are not.
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    Ditto on that
    Albert Hong

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  • If I recall, Actualism is just the emphasis on constant PCE or pure consciousness experience, which is non duality. It is also what is considered no mind, because one is thrown completely into the foreground of appearances.
    There is no particular insight into Anatta in the way Atr frames it. Hence such experiential states come and go, where with Anatta realization, no mind is the natural situation without contriving it.
    It's much different than one mind where everything is the taste or flavor of luminosity. That is an emphasis on wholeness rather than unique, diverse manifestations as the texture, which is more no mind.
    We refine the view constantly but we keep the direct, immediate, undeniable experience of presence.
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    actualism is the repeated letting go (“seeing the silliness”) of conditionings and obscurations obscuring anatta

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  • So when there no thinker or feeler or seer or hearer, etc. then foreground is the presence. each sound, each sensation, each thought is exactly the texture as presence. it's not one whole presence but each single, unique experiencing as presencing.
    then the foreground is further deconstructed. we can still be obstructed by this inherent view. we may take the phenomena world to be actual. the sounds, the sensations.
    because it is HD or more real then real. But that is where mutuality and interdependence is very useful. To understand seeing-seen as conditioned arising ends the solidity of a seer or seen or seeing. All of it just conventions that have no where to land.
    again further refining and freeing the presencing as forms leading to ease and naturalness.
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    agree, seeing transience and emptiness of view itself is 🔑

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  • Now why would one need to refine the view?
    in a sense not all views are equal and it is views that orientate and clarify non duality in substantial forms or non substantial forms.
    it is safe to assume we already come with views of all kinds. views that generally desire a Monistic view or any other inherency kink we desire. And those are practically impossible to see because they are so habitually imprinted on the being.
    that is where applying an intellectual view is very useful. since we have the intellectual faculty. it is wise to use a view, learn a view, and apply a view that clarifies what exactly presence is.
    that is useful for some people or it isn't. some are inclined and can intuit the value of that. for most it is irrelevant and they will treat whatever said here as irrelevant conceptual nonsense.
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  • but these aren't just ideas of course. they are lived. they inform the whole subtle body to our seemingly coarse physical body. the holding of any inherent view is an imaginary stain on our being, our whole energetic field. and that knot will not go away until we recognize emptiness.
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    Yes
    Albert Hong
    that's true.

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    Albert Hong
    what about Richard's view that other traditional paths do not have what he is saying? 🙂

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    Yeah it’s strange his criticisms are based on a complete misunderstanding of Buddhism, and after all these years he still hasn’t corrected that view.
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  • Good points....very informative site but I also see lots of contradictions ...also he is very into clear stages as per traditional (patriarchal) Buddhism......men like to systematize everything..... the more recent iterations of non duality awakening I find to be non-hierarchical (not always of course)......and feminine insofar as they incorporate physicality...
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    Actualism is nothing special. Just anatta and not yet into twofold emptiness. Usually my point is something else and not exactly to promote AF
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    June 2009:
    (2:38 AM) AEN: Thus the search for meaning amidst the debris of the much-vaunted human hopes and dreams and schemes comes to its timely end. With the end of both ‘I’ and ‘me’, the distance or separation between both ‘I’ and ‘me’ and the sense organs – and thus the external world – disappears. To be living as the senses is to live a clean and clear and pure awareness –
    apperception – a pure consciousness experience of the world as-it-is. Because there is no ‘I’ as a thinker (a little person inside one’s head) or a ‘me’ as a feeler (a little person in one’s heart) – to have sensations happen to them, one is the sensations. The entire affective faculty vanishes ... blind nature’s software package of instinctual passions is deleted.
    (2:39 AM) AEN: Then there is nothing except the series of sensations which happen ... not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening ... moment by moment ... one after another. To live life as these sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and magic. One is living in peace and tranquillity; a meaningful peace and tranquillity.
    (2:39 AM) AEN: Life is intrinsically purposeful, the reason for existence lies openly all around. It never goes away – nor has it ever been away – it was just that ‘I’/‘me’ was standing in the way of the meaning of life being apparent. Now the universe is experiencing itself in all its magnificence as an apperceptive human being. Life is not
    a vale of tears; peace-on-earth is an actual freedom from the human condition; it is indeed possible to be actually free, here on earth, as this body, in this life-time.
    To seek and to find; to explore and uncover; to investigate and discover ... these actions are the very stuff of life!
    (2:44 AM) AEN: his story of moving from I AM to no self http://actualfreedom.com.au/.../abriefpersonalhistory.htm
    (1:14 PM) AEN: the actualism website states: You could say that mysticism pursues the subjective to the vanishing point of the self – everything becomes subjectivity. In other words, ‘I’ envelope the world to the point where the distinction between subject and object no longer makes sense and the objective is ‘sucked into’ the subjective with no distinction between the two.
    Actualists pursue objectivity to the vanishing point of the self – ‘I’ become so whittled down that eventually the distinction between the objective and the subjective collapses, but this time it is the objective that replaces the subjective – everything becomes (as it already is) objective – factual. No 37 to No 61(R)
    i tink actualism is v sectarian
    (1:14 PM) AEN: they tink that throughout history, they are the first to realise no self, not even buddha
    (1:15 PM) AEN: and they started this whole new movement like religion but not really a religion called 'Actualism'
    lol
    (6:09 PM) Thusness: who is geis?
    (6:09 PM) AEN: i also dunnu
    someone in sgforums
    (6:11 PM) Thusness: This is very good...this is anatta
    (6:11 PM) AEN: u're talking about geis or tHe website
    not the same leh 😛
    (6:12 PM) Thusness: the website
    (6:12 PM) AEN: icic..
    ya i posted on their forum
    (6:13 PM) Thusness: posted what?
    (6:13 PM) AEN: some of my experiences and asked for advise. i also mentioned ur link.. lol
    (6:15 PM) AEN: funny thing is they think even alan watts, bernadette roberts, u.g.krishnamurti, buddha, etc haven realised what they realised
    (6:16 PM) Thusness: coz they dun really understand buddhism...they thought it is new. 😛
    (6:16 PM) AEN: lol ya
    (6:16 PM) Thusness: there are also differing degree to it.
    (6:16 PM) AEN: icic..
    (6:18 PM) Thusness: there is also a problem when one cannot fully penetrate the depth of anatta experientially, at the beginning phase, one may turn to become nihilistic...
    (6:18 PM) Thusness: but since he experienced "I AM", it is unlikely
    (6:19 PM) AEN: oic
    what do u mean by nihilistic
    (6:19 PM) Thusness: means the depth of directly experiencing this sensation
    (6:19 PM) Thusness: or sensate reality without thoroughly no-self experientially...though insight arises...but the sense of self is still there...there is this problem...
    (6:20 PM) AEN: oic..
    but how is it nihilistic
    u mean
    not experiencing the luminosity thoroughly?
    (6:21 PM) Thusness: it is difficult to tell u because u have not come to that struggle yet.
    (6:22 PM) AEN: icic..
    (6:22 PM) Thusness: a struggle when the tendency is still there yet one becomes extremely physical due to the direct experience of sensations...unable to get beyond the sense of self.
    (6:22 PM) Thusness: it is very difficult to tell u.
    (6:23 PM) Thusness: by the way how u come to know about the site?
    (6:23 PM) AEN: extremely physical as in? richard said there is no greater reality only "the universe experiencing itself as this flesh and blood body"
    from DhO... someone posted
    (6:23 PM) Thusness: ic
    (6:24 PM) AEN: apparently theprisonergreco frequent that site last time
    (6:24 PM) Thusness: where is the place u posted the blog
    (6:24 PM) Thusness: now are u clearer the difference between stage 4 and 5?
    (6:25 PM) AEN: dunno leh
    so u mean richard is stage 4 or 5
    (6:25 PM) Thusness: i don't mean that lah
    how come u always like to map
    (6:25 PM) AEN: lol
    (6:26 PM) Thusness: i only want u to have a clear insight the difference
    (6:26 PM) Thusness: at least u have a clearer picture of 4, 5 and 6.
    (6:27 PM) AEN: icic..
    (6:27 PM) Thusness: hari and rob burbea and this richard will help u understand further.
    it is difficult to have one to have that clear insight of the distinction.
    especially between 4 and 5.
    (6:27 PM) AEN: oic..
    (6:28 PM) Thusness: i got to go makan.
    (6:28 PM) AEN: btw richard doesnt seem to be at stage 4 bcos he clearly mentioned that his understanding isnt subject/object union... i tink
    oic
    (6:28 PM) Thusness: at least now i can c u showing me sites that have clearer experience of the distinction.
    (6:28 PM) AEN: ok
    icic
    (6:28 PM) Thusness: he is already beyond that
    (6:28 PM) AEN: oic
    (6:29 PM) Thusness: his is like dharma dan
    (6:29 PM) AEN: icic..
    (6:29 PM) Thusness: i got to read what he wrote later
    (6:29 PM) AEN: ok
    (9:34 PM) Thusness: what is the url again?
    .....
    The Third Alternative
    ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU
    The Third Alternative
    The Third Alternative

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    Session Start: Tuesday, July 21, 2009
    (10:27 PM) AEN: dunnu why but chanting a particular mantra a few times brought me into a state of presence. powerful meditation
    (10:28 PM) Thusness: what mantra?
    (10:29 PM) AEN: i read that its a v powerful mantra... supposedly anyone who hears it wont fall into 3 lower realms
    if i understand correctly
    (10:29 PM) AEN: the website author said 'I won’t tell you about the two supernatural things that happened when I chanted this dharani ' haha
    i din experience anything supernatural but i still find it quite powerful
    (10:30 PM) Thusness: i never do chanting b4.
    (10:30 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:30 PM) AEN: i also seldom do
    (10:58 PM) AEN: haha
    (10:58 PM) AEN: im realising richard took many parts of his website from other sources including alan watts, and now i'm seeing bhante gunaratana stuff frm mindfulness in plain english
    and rephased a bit himself 😛
    (10:58 PM) AEN: and he still say only he's enlightened lol
    (11:02 PM) AEN: he's taking the whole of the 'mindfulness' chapter by bhante gunaratana http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe13.html , edit a bit, and put into http://actualfreedom.com.au/.../attentivenesssensuousness...
    (11:03 PM) Thusness: edit with permission or not?
    (11:03 PM) AEN: no la... hahaha
    for example
    bhante gunaratana:
    When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness.
    richard:
    (11:04 PM) AEN: When one first becomes aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of the clean perception of sensum just before one recognises the percept (the mental product or result of perception) and also before one identifies with all the feeling memories associated with its qualia (the qualities pertaining to the properties of the form) and this ‘raw sense-datum’ stage of sensational perception is a direct experience of the actual.
    use his own terminology only 😛
    (11:05 PM) Thusness: the whole chapter?
    (11:05 PM) AEN: yep
    whole chapter
    (11:05 PM) Thusness: and he din mention it?
    (11:05 PM) AEN: nope
    (11:06 PM) AEN: but he did admit he used alan watts books, and edited only here and there. but he still claims alan watts not his realisation 😛
    (11:06 PM) Thusness: i don't like the way he is presenting it though his experience is there
    (11:06 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:06 PM) Thusness: yeah alan is more advaita
    (11:06 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:06 PM) Thusness: and zen
    his is more vipassana and anatta
    (11:07 PM) AEN: icic..
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: but discrediting Buddha's achievement and said that is his own is no good
    and stealing others work for oneself is also bad
    (11:08 PM) AEN: yeah..
    the alan watts one he also din say
    only when ppl question him saying its from alan watts
    and after much debating
    (11:08 PM) AEN: he admit maybe he took it from there a long ago 😛
    (11:08 PM) Thusness: ic
    (11:08 PM) Thusness: and the one on emptiness?
    (11:08 PM) AEN: which one
    (11:09 PM) Thusness: i mean the one on mindfulness
    (11:09 PM) AEN: yeah thats from bhante gunaratana
    i can see its just rephrasing the mindfulness chapter
    (11:10 PM) Thusness: u found out urself?
    (11:10 PM) AEN: yes i found myself
    (11:10 PM) Thusness: ahhaha...icic
    (11:10 PM) AEN: what he called 'apperceptiveness' is gunaratana 'mindfulness'
    as far as i understand
    (11:10 PM) Thusness: no good no good
    (11:11 PM) AEN: oic is different?
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: hopefully he din steal all those that he wrote from someone else
    no wonder it sounded so enlightening
    lol
    (11:12 PM) AEN: lol
    (11:18 PM) AEN: richard also talked about the 3 characteristics but is based on gunaratana.
    (11:19 PM) AEN: It is really very simple: attentiveness actually sees the illusory nature of everything that is felt. It sees the transitory and delusory nature of every ideal and dream and scheme and – seeing the inherently unsatisfactory nature of all feeling beings – it sees that there is no sense grabbing onto any of these passing
    feelings as peace and harmony cannot be found that way. Attentiveness sees the inherent selfishness of all ‘being’ in that it sees the way that human beings have arbitrarily selected a certain bundle of tender feelings, chopped them off from the rest of the surging flow of savage feelings and then realised themselves as unitive and enduring entities swimming in the ‘Ocean Of Oneness’
    --- richard
    (11:19 PM) AEN: gunaratana:
    (11:19 PM) AEN: Mindfulness works like and electron microscope. That is, it operates on so fine a level that one can actually see directly those realities which are at best theoretical constructs to the conscious thought process. Mindfulness actually sees the impermanent character of every perception. It sees the transitory and passing
    nature of everything that is perceived. It also sees the inherently unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned things. It sees that there is no sense grabbing onto any of these passing shows. Peace and happiness cannot be found that way. And finally, Mindfulness sees the inherent selflessness of all phenomena. It sees the
    way that we have arbitrarily selected a certain bundle of perceptions, chopped them off from the rest of the surging flow of experience and then conceptualized them as separate, enduring, entities. Mindfulness actually sees these things. It does not think about them, it sees them directly.
    (11:20 PM) AEN: ya i tink richard more towards vipassana 😛
    (11:20 PM) AEN: but he mistaken that vipassana is a way to watch phenomena to dissociate oneself from phenomena and experience the transcendence of I AM
    (11:21 PM) Thusness: yes..
    (11:21 PM) Thusness: even most vipassana teacher taught and thought it is that too
    Usnisa Vijaya Dharani
    MEDITATIONEXPERT.COM
    Usnisa Vijaya Dharani
    Usnisa Vijaya Dharani
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    Session Start: Saturday, 5 September, 2009
    (10:44 PM) AEN: hi.. how to experience nonduality effortlessly?
    (10:44 PM) Thusness: only through deep insight of anatta and dependent origination
    that is my experience
    (10:46 PM) Thusness: however with the arising insight of anatta, with practice of vipassana, it will turn effortless.
    the insight of anatta is most important
    (10:46 PM) Thusness: one will only realise the true meaning of bare attention after the arising insight of anatta
    (10:46 PM) AEN: oic..
    but before that also can experience bare attention rite
    (10:47 PM) Thusness: yeah but the essence of it will not be known without the insight of anatta
    (10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: it will come a time when the tendency to dualify dissolves due to deep insight (not just meditative stage), it will turn effortless, vivid and powerfully present.
    (10:51 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:53 PM) Thusness: it almost feel like a natural state of absorption yet vivid present because there is no sense of observer, agent, self just luminous manifestation.
    (10:54 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:55 PM) Thusness: actually the site on actual freedom is about there.
    ....
    Session Start: Sunday, 13 September, 2009
    (12:46 AM) Thusness: actual freedom is okie if not all those nonsense blasphemies (not a good term for Buddhism 😛). The experience is there, the insight is there but there are too much plagiarism. 🙂.
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    Richard misinterpreted Buddha's nirvana and 'death-free' (amata) to imply some sort of metaphysical essence or Self. This is not what Buddha meant. This is explained in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-deathless-in...
    The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Deathless in Buddhadharma?
    The Deathless in Buddhadharma?

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    “Yes and very good. There is a very big difference between substantialist non-dual of One-Mind and what you said. In this experience, there is no background reality. It is not about the background Awareness but rather the foreground aggregates that you are talking about - A thought. There is just aggregates that are like foams, bubbles, ethereal having all the same taste without substantiality and implicitly non-dual. No sense of body, mind and the world, nothing actual or truly there.
    Before, when insight of anatta first arose, you still risk the danger of seeing the physical as inherent and truly existing. Therefore there is a period that you are lost, unsure and AF (Actual Freedom) seems appealing - a sign that you have not extended the insight of emptiness to phenomena though you kept saying twofold emptiness.
    At present you focus on the following:
    1. When there is no cold or heat (Soh: See glossary at the bottom of the article)
    2. Total exertion
    For 1, it is not difficult to understand now but for 2, you have not directly or adequately replace the 'Self/self' with the interdependence of whatever arises.” - John Tan, 06/12/2011 E-mail
    “André, to me anatta is a very specific and definite phase of seeing through the background self/Self quite thoroughly at least in the waking state but there is a tendency that experience can somehow turn very "physical, sense-based and causal" for me.
    Every experience is direct, gapless, non-dual, non-conceptual and radiance even total exertion is present, just not empty. Almost equivalent to Actual Freedom as narrated by Richard. In fact I find Richard's description very much my version of arahat 🤣.
    For Kyle, due to his view in emptiness, the experiential insight of anatta not only pierce through the self/Self but also triggered the arising insight of emptiness. However this may not be true (imo) in most cases if one's view isn't firmly established. For me when I first encountered the chariot analogy, there is an immediate and intuitive recognition that it is referring to anatta but I am unable to grasp the essence of the phrase "emptiness and non-arisen" there and then.
    In other words, in addition to self immolation, a specific insight must arise, it is the prajna that clearly sees through the referent is empty and non-arisen. So anatta I would say is about severing the self/Self whereas phase 6 is the blossoming of this specific insight. Extending this insight from self to phenomena, from conventions to magical appearances is then a natural progression.
    As for first bhumi (Soh: related: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism , Definition of First Bhumi) I am seriously not sure and never thought of it.
    I can only say if we practice long enough, there is a frequent occurrence of a clear, clean and pure spring of joy that emerges from nowhere, floating like cloud. A very helpful antidote for negative emotions.
    Even the experience of drinking water is like experiencing a clean and pure stream of luminous sensations in zero dimension similar to a mirage flowing spring water floating in the air.” - John Tan in the Awakening to Reality Discussion Group, 2019, John wrote this maybe a month or two before a breakthrough that Soh had which led to the writing “The Magical Fairytale-like Wonderland and Paradise of this Verdant Earth Free from Affective Emotions, Reactions and Sufferings”
    “Soh: as Richard said, the out of control experience can happen even before anatta (the complete dissolution of self/Self), that is why the "doer" dissolves but the "be-er" is still there, but in actual freedom both dissolves
    John Tan: Quite acute insight and thorough for the state no mind. Means "being" is also deconstructed.”
    (Soh: For those wondering what Actual Freedom is referring to:
    See A Brief Personal History (of Richard Maynard of Actual Freedom) and Peace on this Earth: Actual Freedom and Actual Freedom and Buddhism)
    John Tan wrote on 24 March 2019 to me,
    “Not going back. If you want to write a guide, write with sincerity. If you write with a sincere heart, I am sure people will benefit as those are genuine insights leading to effortlessness of instant presence. However, never claim or even suggest the phases of insight are end of journey, that is very naive, untrue and misleading.
    As for powerful vivid radiance, they are normal if you have spent quality time post your anatta insight. When the center is gone, externally you will feel like a ball of radiance appearing as the world. Internally, energetic radiance will beam through your body cells, vibrating on your crown, your face, dancing as pulsation of your flowing blood, that is the time you should seriously look into energy practice. If you are not interested in energy practice, just learn deep rhythmic abdominal breathing until a state of no mind into deep release, it will help to contain and regulate and the powerful energetic radiance.
    As for AF, the immolation of Self/self is simply the deconstruction of mental construct of self as a center background. Richard has carried it far enough to reach total exertion which he called "realizing one's destiny" if I remember correctly. However the same cause reifying the background is now manifesting in the foreground as the "actual world", therefore there is no thorough liberation. Imo from the perspective of self immolation, he has carried it further than you and his essays can definitely help to guide you. It does seems final in a pseudo sense.
    For you, it will be difficult to find a teacher but if you humble yourself, everyone, every event is your teacher. When I tell you to differentiate experience from realization and established firmly on the view as your guide, the purpose is not for you to go around stereotyping people, it is strictly for your own development.
    Lastly due to the Awakening to Reality group and your relentless advertisement, I have been receiving messages. I do not want to mislead people and I am not a spiritual teacher and I do not wish to develop it into a cultic group🤣. As for me, practice is ongoing and there is no finality. So I will continue my never ending journey. You can WhatsApp me just don't message me who is at what stage… lol.”
    After writing to me, in the following months my total exertion deepened and stabilized. I experienced the 'destiny' of infinite space and time that Richard always talked about, which became a natural state.
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    Richard is clear in distinguishing his realisation and experience from those of Stage 1~4.
    "RICHARD: You must be referring to this:
    • [Richard]: ‘I never advise or encourage anyone to use psychotropic substances (for obvious reasons). If, however, someone already has done so, and intends to do so again of their own accord and volition anyway, then I would counsel their very careful and considered use as it is all-too-easy for an altered state of consciousness (ASC) to emerge rather than a pure consciousness experience (PCE) ... there are many accounts available on the internet and 4 or 5 years ago I browsed through several web pages and never found any description that resembled a PCE’.
    A quick search of the internet showed that the quote you provided comes from an essay, in ‘This is It and Other Essays on Zen and Spiritual Experience’, entitled ‘The New Alchemy’ and goes on to say, immediately after where you ended it, the following:
    • [quote] ‘For it implies that experience is not something in which one is trapped or by which one is pushed around, or against which one must fight. The conventional duality of subject and object, knower and known, feeler and feeling, is changed into a polarity: the knower and the known become the poles, terms, or phases of a single event which happens, not to me or from me, but of itself. The experiencer and the experience become a single, ever-changing self-forming process, complete and fulfilled at every moment of its unfolding, and of infinite complexity and subtlety’. [endquote].
    That polarity of subject/ object, knower/ known, feeler/ feeling, experiencer/ experience is an unmistakable description of mystical experiencing wherein the polar opposites unite (aka non-duality) – known in some mystical literature as ‘complexio oppositorum’ (union of opposites) ‘or coincidentia oppositorum’ (coincidence of opposites) – and thus shows that my counselling of very careful and considered use of psychotropic substances is a well-advised monition.
    Here in this actual world neither duality nor non-duality have any existence.
    ....
    RICHARD: Here is the full version (with the sections you selected highlighted for convenience):
    • [Mr. Alan Watts]: ‘I can say only that the awareness of grain or structure in the senses seemed to be awareness of awareness, of myself from inside myself. Because of this, it followed that *the distance or separation between myself and my senses, on the one hand, and the external world, on the other, seemed to disappear*. [emphasis added].
    • [Richard]: ‘With the end of both ‘I’ and ‘me’, *the distance or separation between both ‘I’ and ‘me’ and these sense organs – and thus the external world – disappears*. [emphasis added].
    And the reason why I provide the full version is because Mr. Alan Watts clearly reports that it is [quote] ‘because’ [endquote] of the awareness of himself, from inside himself, that the distance or separation (between himself and his senses, on the one hand, and the external world, on the other) seemed to disappear ... as contrasted my report that it is [quote] ‘with’ [endquote] the end of both ‘I’ and ‘me’ that the distance or separation (between both ‘I’ and ‘me’ and these sense organs and thus the external world) disappears.
    In other words, with no identity whatsoever there is no-one to be either in a state of separation (aka duality) or in a state of union (aka non-duality).
    RESPONDENT: [Let’s compare]:
    Alan Watts: ‘I was no longer a detached observer, a little man inside my own head ...’
    Richard: ‘Because there is no ‘I’ as a thinker (a little person inside one’s head) or a ‘me’ as a feeler (a little person in one’s heart)’
    RICHARD: Again here is my full version (with the section you selected highlighted for convenience):
    • [Richard]: ‘To be living as the senses is to live a clear and clean awareness – apperception – a pure consciousness experience of the world as-it-is. *Because there is no ‘I’ as a thinker (a little person inside one’s head) or a ‘me’ as a feeler (a little person in one’s heart)* ...’. [emphasis added].
    Again the reason why I provide the full version is because to be living *as* the senses (as a flesh and blood body only) is a vast cry from a remaining, and non-detached observer, having *become* the sensations (as in having identified with and/or having arrogated them).
    RESPONDENT: [Let’s compare]:
    Alan Watts: ‘ ... /having/ sensations. I was the sensations’
    Richard: ‘to have sensations happen to them, I am the sensations’
    RICHARD: And again here is the full version (with the sections you selected highlighted for convenience):
    • [Mr. Alan Watts]: ‘I was no longer a detached observer, a little man inside my own head */having/ sensations. I was the sensations* ...’. [emphasis added].
    • [Richard]: ‘Because there is no ‘I’ as a thinker (a little person inside one’s head) or a ‘me’ as a feeler (a little person in one’s heart) *to have sensations happen to them, I am the sensations*’.[emphasis added].
    And again the reason why I provide the full version is because of the marked distinction between an egoless observer/ feeler/ experiencer (aka identity) having become the sensations and a flesh and blood body only being the very senses.
    RESPONDENT: [Let’s compare]:
    Alan Watts: ‘[I was the sensations], so much so that there was nothing left of me, the observing ego, except the series of sensations which happened – not to me, but just happened – moment by moment, one after another’
    Richard: ‘There is nothing except the series of sensations which happen ... not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening ... moment by moment ... one after another’
    RICHARD: And yet again here is my full version (with the section you selected highlighted for convenience):
    • [Richard]: ‘The entire affective faculty vanishes ... blind nature’s software package of instinctual passions is deleted. *There is nothing except the series of sensations which happen ... not happening to an ‘I’ or a ‘me’ but just happening ... moment by moment ... one after another*’. [emphasis added].
    And yet again the reason why I provide the full version is because of the remarkable difference betwixt a flesh and blood body sans the entire affective faculty (and thus identity in toto) and an identity, replete with the full suite of emotions/ passions/ calentures it is comprised of, having identified with and/or having arrogated bodily sensations.
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    RESPONDENT: [Let’s compare]:
    Alan Watts: ‘To become the sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and release’
    Richard: ‘To live life as these sensations, as distinct from having them, engenders the most astonishing sense of freedom and magic’
    RICHARD: Here is what I go on to say immediately following:
    • [Richard]: ‘Consequently, I am living in peace and tranquillity; a meaningful peace and tranquillity. Life is intrinsically purposeful, the reason for existence lies openly all around. Being this very air I live in, I am constantly aware of it as I breathe it in and out; I see it, I hear it, I taste it, I smell it, I touch it, all of the time. It never goes away – nor has it ever been away – it was just that ‘I’/ ‘me’ was standing in the way of the meaning of life being apparent’ [endquote].
    And here is what Mr. Alan Watts goes on to say immediately following:
    • [quote] ‘For it implies that experience is not something in which one is trapped or by which one is pushed around, or against which one must fight. The conventional duality of subject and object, knower and known, feeler and feeling, is changed into a polarity: the knower and the known become the poles, terms, or phases of a single event which happens, not to me or from me, but of itself. The experiencer and the experience become a single, ever-changing self-forming process, complete and fulfilled at every moment of its unfolding, and of infinite complexity and subtlety’. [endquote].
    (...)
    RICHARD: That polarity of subject/ object, knower/ known, feeler/ feeling, experiencer/ experience is an unmistakable description of mystical experiencing wherein the polar opposites unite (aka non-duality) – known in some mystical literature as ‘complexio oppositorum’ (union of opposites) ‘or coincidentia oppositorum’ (coincidence of opposites) – and thus shows that my counselling of very careful and considered use of psychotropic substances is a well-advised monition. Here in this actual world neither duality nor non-duality have any existence."

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  • I think perhaps it is important is it to distinguish view and depth of realization?
    So for eg. One can have "right view" or perhaps even experiential glimpse into emptiness. But without fully refining gross and subtle experience and abiding in emptiness.
    And perhaps someone else can have a deep abiding realization of Annata like Richard seems to have with a view that perhaps served him to get over 'spiritualism' but is obscuring further realization.
    Not sure what the trad. Buddhist view on this would be with regards to rebirth. But in terms of present experience Richards experience could be more free of suffering than that of someone with a glimpse of non-abiding emptiness.
    So i dont like getting too caught up in the stages.
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    I think a good thing about Richard is that about 30 months after his basic freedom (anatta) breakthrough, he transitioned into abiding total exertion (fully free). Other than Vineeto, so far none of the other actually free individuals made that transition.

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  • Anurag Jain
    he made up his mind about Buddhism and other spiritual paths before he embarked on his journey. He also was 'thrilled to the nth degree' to go and discover something no one has ever discovered.
    These two things have stayed throughout his journey and he doesn't seem to have the psychological capacity to step back from these points of view.
    Everything he will come across that suggests he isn't the first one will be dismissed because of his lack of psychological majority. (psychological maturity doesn't necessarily come from spiritual maturity, ppl can stay psychological immature dispute profound insight into spirituality)
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    I think its also not as simple as that.
    AF people are looking specifically at the physicalist subphase of anatta to be in their criteria of AF.
    This is why when I described my experience to Vineeto, she dismissed it, saying her experience of universe is physical and inherently existing. (I do not, because I underwent twofold emptiness).
    Likewise Richard said a few times that U.G. Krishnamurti could be experiencing an actual freedom. U G is in the physicalist subphase of anatta. But after some years he recanted that position, saying there is some dissimilarities, although maintaining that U G is the closest to his experience by far.
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    John Tan’s early years of anatta was identical to AF for reasons I wrote in the atr guide

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    Anatta up to total exertion and very physical

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  • I am sure these things play a role in it as well. However, there's a distinct difference between John Tan and his capabilities to look at various teachers and traditions and Richards. Richard simply lacks this capacity and in my view, that is rooted in the two reasons I have outlined above.
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    Yes
    Although i would add, anatta is truly rare. Most people out there only realise I AM and up to one mind. It is quite rare as a matter of fact.. so it is not easy to find convincing descriptions of anatta and total exertion.
    Even John Tan said it is rare*. But that being said, there is truly a difference between John and Richard’s ability to discern.
    “Though buddha nature is plainness and most direct, these are still the steps. If one does not know the process and said ‘yes this is it’… then it is extremely misleading. For 99 percent [of ‘realized’/’enlightened’ persons] what one is talking about is "I AMness", and has not gone beyond permanence, still thinking [of] permanence, formless… ...all and almost all will think of it along the line of "I AMness", all are like the grandchildren of "AMness", and that is the root cause of duality.” - John Tan, 2007
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  • AF belief is that they are their bodies, according to AF spirituality is to believe that one is awareness. Probably a criticism of Advaita Vedanta, not so much Buddhism.
    I think Richard cherry picks his conclusions, it could have gone unnoticed 10 years ago, not so much anymore.
    His personality suffers from megalomania which he himself cannot see.
    Despite reading his descriptions on PCEs they never triggered an experience of them in my system.
    HAIETMOBA for me seems to be a suppression tactic rather than a relaxing into experience.
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  • A criticism of AF from the Dzogchen perspective.
    Imitating Freedom, a Buddhist critique of "Actual Freedom" - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
    DHARMAOVERGROUND.ORG
    Imitating Freedom, a Buddhist critique of "Actual Freedom" - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
    Imitating Freedom, a Buddhist critique of "Actual Freedom" - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
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  • The unawareness that is spoken of here is similar to my impression of suppression in using HAIETMOBA. Basically one pushes a certain experience in place with force. Rigpa / Dzogchen is a release of the force.
    I find self-inquiry here in my system doing the same thing, so I am not sure one should go for I AM ness rather than anatta. But then I am more into transmission based systems than sutra / manual ones.
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    Actually all Dzogchen teachers I have come across leads students to I AM. At least initially. And that is indeed the (initial, not fully matured) rigpa of Dzogchen.
    This is so even for Arcaya Malcolm, as his long time student Kyle Dixon himself said to me and showed me a post by Malcolm in his Zangthal forum. I AM first, then anatta/emptiness later.
    Unfortunately I cannot share that text outside, unless you are a member of that Zangthal forum
    Forum Signup — Zangthal
    ZANGTHAL.COM
    Forum Signup — Zangthal
    Forum Signup — Zangthal

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    Also my experience of self enquiry wasn’t exactly very forceful. But yes one should complement it with “dropping” as i wrote in atr guide

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    But i can share John Tan’s comments about Malcolm’s post:

    JT: "This is like what I tell u and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性.  先明心, 后见性.

    First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心.  There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They r the same.

    However that is not realization of emptiness.  Realization of emptiness is 见性.  Imo there is direct path to 明心 but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 yet.  If u go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs, u will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots r.

    Therefore emptiness or 空性 is the main difference between buddhism and other religions.  Although anatta is the direct experiential taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.  

    The former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about doing away with self whereas the later is abt living in the wisdom of emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all phenomena.

    As for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa. Both r equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane speech as in terms of result, ultimately they r the same (imo)."
    No photo description available.

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    明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性.
    Means “Apprehending the mind is not realising its nature. First apprehend Mind, later realise its nature.”
    Nature as in emptiness

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  • ChNN never stated that anywhere as far as I can tell from reading his material or from his teachings I participated in online so I think that is a personal interpretation.
    The only place I found something similar to an identity like I AM is where he says you find out you are Vajrasattva so impurities fall away naturally. Everywhere ChNN emphasizes looking into 'who' is having the experience. This looks like self-inquiry from the outside but actually is different experientially because one is in clarity.
    Regarding my take on self-inquiry I am just reporting on how it feels here, not saying it objectively is something to avoid. I think it is something specific to my system due to strong analysis capabilities of the brain. So the self-inquiry might trigger unconscious processing of sensory input.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    I find the comparison of rigpa to I AM a bit confusing. For example in the guide you mention that abiding in the I AM is a trap and won’t lead to anatta, but this is exactly what is practiced in Dzogchen. I trust you and Malcolm on this point though as you clearly have more experience with these states than I do.

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  • One does not abide in I AM in Dzogchen. In ChNN guru yoga one abides in the same state as ChNN, how it works in other Dzogchen systems I don't know. However Lama Lena transmissions feel a bit different from what I can pickup on YouTube.
    I AM is missing on the emptiness part, this is true though. I didn't see that until recently where it clicked that I AM practioners describing it as something permanent that emptiness pierces through.

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  • Chris Pedersen
    I meant abiding in and stabilising rigpa, not I AM, though obviously that’s an oversimplification. But if we’re equating rigpa and I AM, then it would be the same thing.

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    I wasn't having ChNN particularly in mind, but really, all Dzogchen teachers I've seen and come across lead students to I AM. (not necessarily as a final stage)
    But yes, ChNN is included. It isn't even controversial. Kyle Dixon would agree with me, in fact, he told me himself that Malcolm Smith points to I AM as initial rigpa and is the said instant presence.
    There's an important aspect to the guru yoga taught by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu which brings out the aspect of I AMness or Pure Presence.
    I wrote previously, quoting a text from ChNN:
    "...We sound another A and from that moment we are no longer working with visualization, thinking, or judging, but are only being in that presence. In particular, we notice who is doing this visualization, who is being in this white A at the center of the gakhyil. We are not looking at something in a dualistic way; we are being in that state, and that is instant presence and our real condition."
    -- this is a self-enquiry instruction pointing to the same realization, exactly the same, even if you do not want to call it by those name.
    ChNN pointing out the I AM (note that I am not suggesting that I AM is the limit of his insight):
    5/12/2012 6:29 AM: Soh Wei Yu: "If you are in the state of instant presence, and compare this sensation with the experience of emptiness, or clarity, or in a different way you compare one with another, you discover that presence is unique, that it always remains the same. But before we are able to be in the state of presence, experiences are all different. So that is the meaning of tsed la pheb:
    5/12/2012 6:30 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Maturing: you discover really that the state of instant presence or rigpa is unique. In our lives everything is an experience, and there are not only three experiences."
    5/12/2012 8:54 AM: John: What does he meant by not only three experiences
    5/12/2012 9:43 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Emptiness (in the gap between thoughts that is emptiness but there is nonetheless someone noticing that, a presence, sounds like I AM), clarity (like movement, manifestation) and sensation (sensation of pleasure incl sexual contact)
    5/12/2012 9:45 AM: Soh Wei Yu: He said
    5/12/2012 9:47 AM: Soh Wei Yu: "...when we are dissolving everything into emptiness, in that moment we are discovering instant presence because we are not only lost in emptiness, there is also someone noticing that, there is a presence. So this is called instant presence. And you can also have this instant presence with the experience of clarity and with the experience of sensation, even with a strong sensation like sexual contact. Of course, at this moment you can feel a very strong sensation of pleasure and maybe you are generally distracted by it, but
    ?5/12/2012 9:48 AM: Soh Wei Yu: If you are a good practitioner you also notice the instant presence. That is, you are not only enjoying the strong sensation but at the same time
    5/12/2012 9:48 AM: Soh Wei Yu: you are in instant presence.
    5/12/2012 9:48 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Then followed by the ""If you are in the state of instant presence, and compare this sensation with the experience of emptiness... Etc
    .....
    ChNN also said before,
    "Ranxin minis means one does not simply remain in the condition of the experience, but uses the experience as a method to find oneself in the state of contemplation. In these experiences there is a presence. It is not as if one has fainted or lost consciousness. There is somebody who remains in it. There is no difference whatsoever whether this presence is found in the experience of the person who is smiling or in the experience of the person who is frightened, even though the experiences are completely different. Minis does not mean that two things are united, or that we think that they are the same. If we just say that the nature of those things is not real, thus they are the same, then it will remain as a mental construction. But if one goes through the diverse experiences and hence finds that the true state of presence has no difference, then the real state of nacog is one, and the presence is called rigba (rig.pa.) If we say different experiences are not equal, this is what we mean.
    "Whether it is calm, movement, or any one of hundreds of experiences, the important thing is to know the difference between experience and presence. When we know what is meant by rigba, we ought to know how to integrate with all these aspects in our presence."
    "So, ugly or beautiful, positive or negative conditions, heavens or hells or transmigration do not in any way affect the underlying nature of the consciousness that is the state of the mirror itself." "that which is noticing thoughts and that which is noticing no thoughts, that which notices both conditions is Rigpa"

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    And I can refer to you that Malcolm Smith post pointing to the distinction between initial rigpa as I AMness and subsequent emptiness realisation, if you guys are in the Zangthal forum.

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    As for some excerpts from other Dzogchen teachers besides ChNN pointing to I AMness:
    Sogyal Rinpoche: “Sometimes when I meditate, I don't use any particular method. I just allow my mind to rest, and find, especially when I am inspired, that I can bring my mind home and relax very quickly. I sit quietly and rest in the nature of mind; I don't question or doubt whether I am in the "cor-rect" state or not. There is no effort, only rich understanding, wakefulness, and unshakable certainty. When I am in the nature of mind, the ordinary mind is no longer there. There is no need to sustain or confirm a sense of being: I simply am. A fundamental trust is present. There is nothing in par-ticular to do… …If meditation is simply to continue the flow of Rigpa after the introduction, how do we know when it is Rigpa and when it is not? I asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche this ques-tion, and he replied with his characteristic simplicity: "If you are in an unaltered state, it is Rigpa." If we are not contriving or manipulating the mind in any way, but simply resting in an unaltered state of pure and pristine awareness, then that is Rigpa. If there is any contriving on our part or any kind of manipulating or grasping, it is not. Rigpa is a state in which there is no longer any doubt; there is not really a mind to doubt: You see directly. If you are in this state, a complete, natural certainty and confidence surge up with the Rigpa itself, and that is how you know.”
    Lopon Tenzin Namdak: "To clarify the Dzogchen view: "We are just what we are, the Natural State which is like a mirror. It is clear and empty, and yet it reflects everything, all possible existences and all possible lifetimes. But it never changes and it does not depend on anything else."
    etc etc.. too many to list but you get the hang of it
    Being the Mirror, Not the Reflection
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    Being the Mirror, Not the Reflection
    Being the Mirror, Not the Reflection
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    Also, the direct introduction of Dzogchen also can lead to I AM realization. For example, Tinh Panh realised the I AM during Malcolm Smith's direct introduction. He kinda thanked me for introducing him to Malcolm as I was kind of an influence for leading him to Malcolm Smith.
    Those who don't get it yet can do self-introduction practices like rushan and semzins.
    Kyle Dixon also said,
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    "I’ve never met anyone who gained any insight into emptiness at direct introduction. Plenty who recognized rigpa kechigma though.
    I don’t presume to know better than luminaries like Longchenpa and Khenpo Ngachung who state emptiness isn’t actually known until third vision and so on. You may presume otherwise and in that case we can agree to disagree."
    - Kyle Dixon
    The Degrees of Rigpa
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Degrees of Rigpa
    The Degrees of Rigpa

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  • Soh yes then you are right.
    You could call it abiding in I AM as it is your own presence, what ChNN calls instant presence.
    Doing this without a master is different though. Like doing self-inquiry with Ramana Maharshi and without.

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  • I think I had compartmentalized I AM as something different (presence, but zero thoughts) because of the relationship with Hinduism. But yes this is your own presence, the feeling that you exist etc.

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    Whether you realize I AM with or without a master, it is exactly the same realization. Just that without a very realised teacher, it's hard to advance from there, and tendency is to get stuck. Unfortunately even lineage teachers are often stuck at the I AM/one mind phases. (I have personal experiences like that as well) John Tan also met many lineage masters, but they all couldn't lead him to anatta and emptiness, he had to figure it all out by himself by contemplating on the Buddha's teachings. Having known John Tan, I can tell you his wisdom faculty is incredibly sharp, so most of us dull ones like myself will never hope to figure it all out without a teacher, or someone like John Tan who pointed out to me. Well he is not teaching others formally but by his and AtR sharing many have come to progress from I AM to realise anatta as well (40+)
    Likewise if you are studying under someone who is very clear, like Malcolm, it is safe, because you are pointed to the right view, etc.

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    As Malcolm himself said, due to the current degeneration of Buddhadharma, it is the case that in all traditions of Buddhism it is very rare to find someone who realise emptiness.
    (Although I would argue that this may be the case even back in olden days:
    'Introduction to the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Jamgon Mipham',
    "There is a story that once when Atisha was in Tibet, he received news of the death of the master Maitripa. He was deeply grieved, and on being questioned about the reasons for his sorrow, he replied that Buddhism was in decline in India and that everywhere there was syncretism and confusion. Until then, Atisha continued, there had been only two masters in the whole of India, Maitripa and himself, capable of discerning the correct teaching from the doctrines and practices of the reviving Hindu schools. The time is sure to come, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche commented, and perhaps it is already here, when there will be an analogous situation in the West. Only the correct establishment of the view will enable one to find one's way through the religious confusion of the modern West and to distinguish authentic Buddhism from the New Age "self-help" versions that are already taking hold.”
    )

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    John Tan also reiterated recently that all the traditions are talking about the same authentication:
    William Lam: It's non conceptual.
    John Tan: It’s non conceptual. Yup. Okay. Presence is not conceptual experience, it has to be direct. And you just feel pure sense of existence. Means people ask you, before birth, who are you? You just authenticate the I, that is yourself, directly. So when you first authenticate that I, you are damn happy, of course. When young, that time, wah… I authenticate this I… so you thought that you’re enlightened, but then the journey continues. So this is the first time you taste something that is different. It is… It is before thoughts, there is no thoughts. Your mind is completely still. You feel still, you feel presence, and you know yourself. Before birth it is Me, after birth, it is also Me, 10,000 years it’s still this Me, 10,000 year before, it’s still this Me. So you authenticate that, your mind is just that and authenticate your own true being, so you don't doubt that. In later phase…
    Kenneth Bok: Presence is this I AM?
    John Tan: Presence is the same as I AM. Presence is the same as… of course, other people may disagree, but actually they're referring to the same thing. The same authentication, the same what... even in Zen is still the same.
    But in later phase, I conceive that as just the thought realm. Means, in the six, I always call the six entries and six exits, so there is the sound and there’s all these… During that time, you always say I’m not sound, I’m not the appearance, I AM the Self that is behind all these appearances, alright? So, sounds, sensations, all these come and go, your thoughts come and go, those are not me, correct? This is the ultimate Me. The Self is the ultimate Me. Correct?
    William Lam: So, is that nondual? The I AM stage. It’s non-conceptual, was it nondual?
    John Tan: It’s nonconceptual. Yes, it is nondual. Why is it nondual? At that moment, there is no duality at all, at that moment when you experience the Self, you cannot have duality, because you are authenticated directly as IT, as this pure sense of Being. So, it’s completely I, there’s nothing else, just I. There’s nothing else, just the Self. I think, many of you have experienced this, the I AM. So, you probably will go and visit all the Hinduism, sing song with them, meditate with them, sleep with them, correct? Those are the young days. I meditate with them, hours after hours, meditate, sit with them, eat with them, sing song with them, drum with them. Because this is what they preach, and you find these group of people, all talking about the same language.
    So this experience is not a normal experience, correct? I mean, within the probably 15 years of my life or 17 years of my life, my first... when I was 17, when you first experienced that, wah, what is that? So, it is something different, it is non conceptual, it is non dual, and all these. But it is very difficult to get back the experience. Very, very difficult, unless you're in when you're in meditation, because you reject the relative, the appearances. So, it is, although they may say no, no, it is always with me, because it's Self, correct? But you don't actually get back the authentication, just pure sense of existence, just me, because you reject the rest of that appearances, but you do not know during that time. Only after anatta, then you realize that this, when you when you hear sound without the background, that experience is exactly the same, the taste is exactly the same as the presence. The I AM Presence. So, only after anatta, when the background is gone, then you realize eh, this has the exact same taste as the I AM experience. When you are not hearing, you are just in the vivid appearances, the obvious appearances now, correct. That experience is also the I AM experience. When you are even now feeling your sensation without the sense of self directly. That experience is exactly the same as I AM taste. It is nondual. Then you realize, I call, actually, everything is Mind. Correct? Everything. So, so before that, there is an ultimate Self, a background, and you reject all those transient appearances. After that, that background is gone, you know? And then you are just all these appearances.
    William Lam: You are the appearance? You are the sound? You are the…
    John Tan: Yes. So, so, that is an experience. That is an experience. So after that, you realize something. What did you realise? You realise all along it is the what, that is obscuring you. So… in a person, for a person that is in I AM experience, the pure presence experience, they will always have a dream. They will say that I hope I can 24 by 7 always in that state, correct? So when I was young, 17. But then after 10 years you are still thinking. Then after 20 years, you say how come I need to always meditate? You always find time to meditate, maybe I don't study also meditate, you give me a cave last time I will just meditate inside.
    So, the the thing that you always dream that you can one day be pure consciousness, just as pure consciousness, live as pure consciousness, but you never get it. And even if you meditate, occasionally probably you can have that oceanic experience. Only when you after anatta, when that self behind is gone, you are not 24 by 7, maybe most of your day, waking state, not so much of 24 by 7, you dream that time still very karmic depending on what you engage, doing business, all these. (John mimics dreaming) How come ah, the business…
    So, so, in normal waking state, you are effortless. Probably that is the, during I AM phase, what you think you are going to achieve, you achieve after the insight of anatta. So you become clear, you are probably in the right path. But there are further insights you have to go through. When you try to penetrate the… one of them is, I feel that I become very physical. I am just narrating, going through my experience. Maybe that time… because you experience the relative, the appearances directly. So everything becomes very physical. So that is how you come to understand the meaning, how concepts actually affect you. Then what exactly is physical? How does the idea of physical come about, correct? That time I still do not know about emptiness, and all these kind of things, to me it is not so important.
    So, I start going into what exactly is physical, what exactly is being physical? Sensation. But why is sensation known as physical, and what is being physical? How did I get the idea of being physical? So, I began to enquire into this thing. That, eh, actually on top of that, there is still further things to deconstruct, that is the meaning… that, just like self, I’m attached to the meaning of self, and you create a construct, it becomes a reification. Same thing, physicality also. So, you deconstruct the concepts surrounding physicality. Correct? So, when you deconstruct that, then I began to realize that all along, we try to understand, even after the experience of let’s say, anatta and all these… when we analyze, and when we think and try to understand something, we are using existing scientific concepts, logic, common day to day logic and all these to understand something. And it is always excluding consciousness. Even if you experience, you can lead a spiritual path you know, but when you think and analyze something, somehow you always exclude consciousness from the equation of understanding something. Your concept is always very materialistic. We always exclude consciousness from the whole equation.
    ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
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    ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
    ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Thanks for the clarification. So to summarise, in Dzogchen you are initially pointed to rigpa/I AM and through continued practice (with the right guidance) you see through the “I”ness of it similar to the AtR contemplations. Hence you arrive at the same point. I hadn’t thought of it this way.

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  • The writings, discussions help even though I already have the Dzogchen transmissions.
    I think you need right conceptual understanding as well because otherwise you will difficulty communicating with others, internal misunderstanding etc.
    But I probably put less emphasis on it than you. I think the degeneration of Buddhism is partly caused by the obsession and cultivation of the intellect. ChNN's teacher had a simple mind, wasn't a big intellectual.
    But sometimes intellectual descriptions are necessary when describing Hinduism vs Buddhism.

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  • Chris Pedersen
    Yes, I agree that making progress on the path isn’t about conceptual understanding. But without it, it’s easy to follow a wrong teaching and get stuck for many years (I’ve experienced this personally). Even if you have a teacher they could have no idea what they’re talking about, so I don’t just blindly follow someone. That’s why I’m very grateful for discovering AtR which presents everything in a pragmatic way.

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  • You could take part in a Dzogchen transmission if you are interested. I am grateful for having mine as a backup.
    I don't follow cults anymore, I just do my own thing.
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  • In instant presence there is no duality according to ChNN. So merely just feeling you exist, you know the I AM and there is still duality, then you are not in instant presence.
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  • Chris Pedersen
    Yeah, I‘ll be receiving a transmission in the near future. I don’t currently practice Dzogchen or claim to be a Dzogchen practitioner. I see this as more of a discussion on an intellectual level based on my understanding.

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    It is important after discovering instant presence to eventually realised anatta. This is the key to make instant presence effortless, full-blown, non-dual in all sense gates.
    According to Kyle Dixon, Dzogchen practice is resting in moment of unfabricated consciousness in sense gates, with mindfulness and awareness that directly hit thought as it arises and then is not distracted by thought. Then also direct perception of vidyā. The first will lead to anatta realization, the second two fold emptiness. It is now subject and object are recognized as empty. But also the semdzins can expedite insight. Seeing through thought is how anatta occurred for Kyle. The Rig Pa Rang Shar says, as thought arise (shar grol) then as one gets more familiar in the practice thought arise by themselves (rang grol) and finally in realization as if they never arose in the first place (ye grol). Non-arising of thought is what led to insight of no background for Kyle and then whole intense realization. Time is held together by thought and substratum delusion of background knower

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  • Advice from Kyle Dixon
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Advice from Kyle Dixon
    Advice from Kyle Dixon
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    Chris Jones
    Maybe attend Acarya Malcolm's webcasts in www.zangthal.com the next round.
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    Chris Pedersen
    The authentication of instant presence as pure sense of existence is nondual, nonconceptual, etc. But do you have the same taste in all senses and manifestations effortlessly? That is important and anatta leads to that. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/.../thusnesss-six...
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
    Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

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  • Same taste almost 100%, mind very silent. Winning or losing, no difference. Everything is rolling on, nobody doing it.
    However suffering a bit from energy imbalances due to prior energy practice. So I don't do much, it is more of a letting go.
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  • This all makes sense to me. But what it leaves me wondering is, does this mean Dzogchen teachers are all wrong in emphasizing the critical importance of direct introduction given live as being vital to the recognition of rigpa?
    If the initial realization of rigpa is the same as I AM, then it's clear there are many ways to enter this realization, books and recordings could work perfectly well.
    As far as I know even Malcolm emphasizes that this point is vital.

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    Direct pointing in various ways is used not only in Dzogchen, but even in Zen it is used - "directly pointing to the human Mind" 直指人心. As Yuan Yin Lao Ren said, in earliest Zen, the Zen Master mostly just pointed out people's Mind, it is only later that koans developed to help practitioners. Many people awaken through that, not only Tinh Panh.
    In Advaita too, direct pointing may be used. For example John Wheeler awakened to the I AM after meeting his teacher Sailor Bob Adamson, and for this reason he always encourage people to meet a live teacher to be directly pointed out, and said reading from book is much less potent (or something like that) - https://awakeningclaritynow.com/awakening-to-the-natural.../
    Awakening to the Natural State: Guest Teaching by John Wheeler – Awakening Clarity Now by Fred Davis
    AWAKENINGCLARITYNOW.COM
    Awakening to the Natural State: Guest Teaching by John Wheeler – Awakening Clarity Now by Fred Davis
    Awakening to the Natural State: Guest Teaching by John Wheeler – Awakening Clarity Now by Fred Davis

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    But yes, it is not the only way.

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  • Direct introduction is not merely with words, there is non conceptual knowing when the teacher does it.
    This is why Jax is not teaching correct Dzogchen but more like sutra style pointing out.
    A lot of people say the non conceptual pointing out doesn't matter and they are all wrong. In my opinion.

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    Dzogchen uses Phat, Zen master shouts Katz, etc. Maybe some symbols used are different.

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    Zen is not exactly using sutras for its direct introduction either.
    A key Zen story, shared by all the schools: Once, the Buddha was giving a talk on Vulture Peak. In the middle of the talk he paused and held up a flower. Everyone was silent. Only Mahakasyapa broke into a smile. Buddha then said, “I have the Treasury of the True Dharma Eye, the ineffable mind of Nirvana, the real form of No Form, the flawless gate of the Teaching. Not dependent on words, it is a special transmission outside tradition. I now entrust it to Mahakasyapa.”
    What Is Zen Buddhism and How Do You Practice It?
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    What Is Zen Buddhism and How Do You Practice It?
    What Is Zen Buddhism and How Do You Practice It?
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    教外别传,不立文字,直指人心,见性成佛

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  • A Teaching From Zen Master Jinen
    YOUTUBE.COM
    A Teaching From Zen Master Jinen
    A Teaching From Zen Master Jinen

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    Yes “I AM” as it is understood in AtR is the first step in Dzogchen practice, and then insight is refined from there.
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    Chris Pedersen
    if you have any of ChNN’s Longsal texts, there are a couple instances where he makes it quite explicit that “instant presence” is synonymous with what we would understand I AM to be in this AtR model. Instant presence is like an unripened form of rig pa in that way, used as a support for all practices, but not yet refined through insight.
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    "Everything is rolling on, nobody doing it. "
    For many, no-self is more towards no doership rather then pellucid luminosity.
    Have you read this, you went through all phases (or rather, aspects)? http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../different...
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

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  • Definitely number 1 + God realization happened funnily enough through Dzogchen. Later on it seems the God belief purged away on its own.
    There is still a subtle belief of self that is seen through from time to time but I am not so concerned with it right now.
    I can't predict whether I practice or not, it is more a happening on its own.
    Sometimes shifts happen by reading something, like there was someone writing in this group that the sense of self was just sensations in the head coupled with thoughts.
    That invoked some fears and cleaned some deeper beliefs.
    The other day I was reading an article about British military history and the sense of self disappeared temporarily.
    Then I sensed into the writer of the article and felt he had no self.

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  • Kyle Dixon, are the Longsal books necessary?
    I only have Guru Yoga, Precious Vase, Supreme Source and Cycle of Day and Night.
    I never met ChNN in real life. Yesterday I was lying in bed contemplating how fortunate I was to meet him, since he really was unique and nobody has come forward with the same level of clarity and simplicity in his teachings.

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    Oh I was just saying if you have those texts there are more detailed statements in them that pertain to this topic, but no, they are not necessary to possess.
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    Chris Pederson
    I see. In that case the next major breakthrough for you will be full blown anatta realisation. It will be your most major breakthrough yet when you realise it.
    There are a number of ways to go about it.
    Contemplating the two stanzas of anatta was how John Tan realised it and recommend:
    Malcolm Smith also wrote and explained anatta here:
    Kyle Dixon also had some good advice here and an account of how he realised: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../advise-from-kyle_10...
    Robert Dominik wrote how he broke through to anatta here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../robert-dominiks...
    As for myself, the two nondual contemplations especially Bahiya Sutta has been crucial for my own breakthrough: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../two-types-of...
    Mentioning Malcolm, Kyle, Robert as they are all also students of ChNN, also Malcolm was asked by Kunzang Dechen Lingpa to teach Dzogchen. I can also recommend Malcolm’s teachings.
    Besides the impersonality and I AMness you are experiencing, it is also important to practice the other “four aspects of I AM” like the intensity of luminosity of the foreground (bring the taste of Presence and luminosity from the background into the five senses) which is very much part of trekchod practice, as I wrote above:
    “According to Kyle Dixon, Dzogchen practice is resting in moment of unfabricated consciousness in sense gates, with mindfulness and awareness that directly hit thought as it arises and then is not distracted by thought. Then also direct perception of vidyā. The first will lead to anatta realization, the second two fold emptiness. It is now subject and object are recognized as empty. But also the semdzins can expedite insight. Seeing through thought is how anatta occurred for Kyle. The Rig Pa Rang Shar says, as thought arise (shar grol) then as one gets more familiar in the practice thought arise by themselves (rang grol) and finally in realization as if they never arose in the first place (ye grol). Non-arising of thought is what led to insight of no background for Kyle and then whole intense realization. Time is held together by thought and substratum delusion of background knower”
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

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  • Thanks, I will read what you have written and the links etc and contemplate. Maybe a breakthrough will come soon.
    It seems there is a dismissal of instant presence / I AM related to the belief 'I am the body' which ties into a belly knot. This knot has been lessened in time.
    The burning desire you wrote about in getting to I AM realization seems for me not to be related to a specific desire for realization but more of a union / love for the guru. I will see if I can dive into that.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Really nice links on anatta. I'm not there yet, but do you have any thoughts on going from experiences of I AM to I AM realization for someone coming from a Dzogchen background.
    I'm reading your book just now, and have started practicing self enquiry as well, but still finding my feet with that approach, it's new for me. I have some more experience of Dzogchen style practices, and have had some very strong I AM experiences, and I think tastes of some of the other stages through Dzogchen practice, but no realization yet.

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    Self enquiry is good. Lama surya das has teaches it in his book https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Radiance.../dp/1591796121
    Beyond that, I cannot advice on Dzogchen practices. This is something you should discuss with a Dzogchen teacher. In Dzogchen reflections are distinguished from the mirror to realise the I AM. It is a form of self enquiry.
    Natural Radiance: Awakening to Your Great Perfection
    AMAZON.COM
    Natural Radiance: Awakening to Your Great Perfection
    Natural Radiance: Awakening to Your Great Perfection

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  • Soh
    wrote above, "Other than Vineeto, so far none of the other actually free individuals made that transition."
    What is this? Are those your words? If yes, are you referring to some specific group of people that you call "actually free individuals", or what?

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  • He is referring to the actual freedom followers. Just click the link in the OP and you can read the site to which this all refers.
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    I am referring to the actual freedom followers that actually attained actual freedom.
    There are two stages of actual freedom: 1) basically free stage (like anatta, free from separative identity) 2) fully free, permanent experience of the purity and perfection of the limpid universe along with its infinite space, infinite time and perpetual matter (abiding total exertion)
    So far 5 to 10 people are at basically free, while only richard and vineeto made the transition from basically free to fully free stage.

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  • P – Peter's Report of Becoming Actually Free
    ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU
    P – Peter's Report of Becoming Actually Free
    P – Peter's Report of Becoming Actually Free
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