To state there is anything out of this is just ignorance at play. It’s not laziness, it’s confusion, ignorance.

Everything is dependent on each other. Meaning, “you” would not be “you” without any of the specific events and experiences and happenings in life, including the idea that “you” experienced it. Which “you”? This current “you”? No, this “current you” is the result of the “past you”. There is no longer “past you”, but the events and circumstances during those moments are what allowed this “current you” to be.

We all influence each other. The environment influences itself. There is no separation between “you” and the “environment”. So all of this? Unfolded spontaneously, completely out of our control, completely effortlessly, completely on its own.

There’s no “controller” to the rivers, so how can there be an “controller” to you? The idea that “you” control “you” is an influenced perception.

Does that mean that you don’t have “choice”? No. Choice is a thing, but the spontaneity of these unravelings are what led to where you’re at now. Your mind expands beyond what you’ve been influenced to believe you “can” or “should” do, as a person. Your view expands beyond how you’re taught to react and respond, and even what to believe.

You don’t “control” anything, but you can choose what to embody, and then everything will unravel on its own so long as there is embodiment of that. That’s why there’s no “Self” doing anything, because even the “Self” unraveled on its own because of some sort of “embodiment”.

In the situation with the magician, yes there’s an implication of an “agent”. But if we take away the “self” in that regard, then still the illusion is happening whether we perceive them as an agent or not.

We can still see through the illusion of self despite the potential of an unknown force or will, but if an identity is created and placed on that unknown force or will, then we won’t see through it.

But if we’re talking in terms of the illusion of “Self” being “empty”, and we also consider emptiness being an understanding of conceptualized dualities being “neither nor” in regards to being a “true reality”, then if there is an “unknown force”, it can’t be “known” conventionally because it transcends any dualities. And if it transcends dualities, then there is neither a beginning nor end to it, therefore we cannot truly “know” an “origin”, nor an “end”.

So it could be conventionally labeled as “unknown”, but if it’s “unknown” then we do not actually “know” it at all. We can’t. Since it transcends “Self”, there is no “Self” that this “unknown force” is involved with or identifies as either.

And we as humans with a sense of “Self” might call it “unknown”, but this force does not consider itself as such, because there’s nothing to consider for “it”. Yet the magical display is still “happening”.

I suppose though, one can still enjoy the “magic trick” knowing it’s an illusion despite not knowing the workings of it or the reasons on how and why it’s an illusion right?

Because there are plenty of people who understand that a magician’s tricks are not actually what is being presented - like, a rabbit isn’t actually being pulled out of a hat sort of thing - but they’ll still go to the show for entertainment purposes.

Innate and Imputing Ignorance

Lopon Malcolm:

“In the basis (Tibetan: གཞི, Wylie: gzhi) there were neutral awarenesses (sh shes pa lung ma bstan) that did not recognize themselves. (Dzogchen texts actually do not distinguish whether this neutral awareness is one or multiple.) This non-recognition was the innate ignorance. Due to traces of action and affliction from a previous universe, the basis became stirred and the Five Pure Lights shone out. When a neutral awareness recognized the lights as its own display, that was Samantabhadra (immediate liberation without the performance of virtue). Other neutral awarenesses did not recognize the lights as their own display, and thus imputed “other” onto the lights. This imputation of “self” and “other” was the imputing ignorance. This ignorance started sentient beings and samsara (even without non-virtue having been committed). Yet everything is illusory, since the basis never displays as anything other than the five lights.”

Kyle Dixon:

“I’m obviously preferable to the Dzogchen system because I started there and although branching out, my primary interest has remained there. But I do appreciate the run-down of avidyā or ignorance in the Dzogchen system because it is tiered and accounts for this disparity I am addressing.

There are two or three levels of ignorance which are more like aspects of our delusion regarding the nature of phenomena. The point of interest in that is the separation of what is called “innate” (or “connate”) ignorance, from what is called “imputing ignorance.”

The imputing ignorance is the designating of various entities, dimension of experience and so on. And one’s identity results from that activity.

The connate ignorance is the failure to correctly apprehend the nature of phenomena. The very non-recognition of the way things really are.

This is important because you can have the connate ignorance remain in tact without the presence of the imputing ignorance.

This separation is not even apparent through the stilling of imputation like in śamatha. But it can be made readily apparent in instances where you awaken from sleep, perhaps in a strange location, on vacation etc., or even just awakening from a deep sleep. There can be a period of moments where you do not realize where you are right yet, and then suddenly it all comes back, where you are, what you have planned for the day, where you need to be, etc.,

In those initial moments you are still conscious and perceiving appearances, and there is still an innate experience of the room being external and objects being something over-there, separate from oneself. That is because this fundamental error in recognition of the nature of phenomena is a deep conditioning that creates the artificial bifurcation of inner and outer experiential dimensions, even without the activity of imputation.”

Labels: Ācārya Malcolm Smith, Dzogchen |

The following blog entry is from a post made in my forum on 9th October 2008. It is about seeing awareness as manifestation instead of a mirror reflecting, and seeing the inseparability of awareness and conditions. This is also related to a previous blog entry Dependent Arising of Consciousness which contains a related text by Arya Nagarjuna.

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Passerby/Thusness saw some inadequateness in one of the Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma translations, and translated himself a certain passage and commented on my forum:

Original Chinese text from Bodhidharma's Bloodstream Sermon (血脉论): 若智慧明了，此心号名法性，亦名解脱。生死不拘，一切法拘它不得，是名大自在王如来；亦名不思议，亦名圣体，亦名长生不死，亦名大仙。名虽不同，体即是一。圣人种种分别，皆不离自心。心量广大，应用无穷，应眼见色，应耳闻声，应鼻嗅香，应舌知味，乃至施为运动，皆是自心。

(I myself translated certain parts to fill in the gap): With the illumination of wisdom (prajna), mind is known as Dharma Nature, mind is known as Liberation. Neither life nor death can restrain this mind, no dharmas (phenomenon) can. It’s also called the King of Great Freedom Tathagata, the Incomprehensible, the Holy Essence, the Immortality, the Great Immortal. Its names vary but its essence is one. Sages vary, but none are separate from his own mind. The mind’s capacity is limitless, and its conditional functions are inexhaustible. With the condition of eyes, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.

Comments by Passerby/Thusness:

若智慧明了，此心号名法性，亦名解脱。

A better way to translate this should be:

With the illumination of wisdom (prajna), mind is known as Dharma Nature, mind is known as Liberation.

Comments: It is important to know that mind is itself liberation. That is why knowing the nature of our mind is the way of liberation. If Liberation is not experienced, then the clarity is still not there. There is no true understanding of what mind is.

Liberation is this Pristine Awareness itself in its natural state. That is why understanding this Pristine Awareness is the direct path towards liberation. If we cannot see that the 5 aggregates are themselves our Buddha Nature, then we will not understand there is nothing to shunt from the transience. Thought liberates, sound liberates, tastes liberates. The transience liberates. If we do not see that, then we are taking a gradual path. It is also not advisable to speak too much about spontaneous arising or self liberation. It can be quite misleading.

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应眼见色，应耳闻声，应鼻嗅香，应舌知味，乃至施为运动，皆是自心。

A better way to translate should be:

With the condition of the eye, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.

Thusness/Passerby's comments:

Here there are 2 important points to take note. First is that Buddha Nature is the transience. Second it is more of '应'. Means with the condition of the eye, forms arise. With ears, sound arises.

Awareness is not like a mirror reflecting but rather a manifestation. Luminosity is an arising luminous manifestation rather than a mirror reflecting. The center here is being replaced with Dependent Origination, the experience however is non-dual.

One must learn how to see Appearances as Awareness and all others as conditions. Example, sound is awareness. The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears...are conditions. One should learn to see in this way. All problems arise because we cannot experience Awareness this way.

Conventionally we experience in the form of subject and object interaction taking place in a space-time continuum. This is just an assumption. Experientially it is not so. One should learn to experience awareness as the manifestation. There is no subject, there is only and always manifestation, all else are conditions of arising. All these are just provisional explanations for one to understand.

Further comments:

What's seen is Awareness. What's heard is Awareness. All experiences are non-dual in nature. However this non-dual luminosity cannot be understood apart from the ‘causes and conditions’ of arising. Therefore do not see ‘yin’ as Awareness interacting with external conditions. If you see it as so, then it still falls in the category of mirror-reflecting. Rather see it as an instantaneous manifestation where nothing is excluded. As if the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise. A moment is complete and non-dual. Vividly manifest and thoroughly gone leaving no traces.

Other comments:

Phrase like “everything arises from Emptiness and subsides back to Emptiness” is equally misleading. By doing so, we have made ‘Emptiness’ into a metaphysical essence; similarly not to make the same mistake for “causes and conditions”, not to objectify it into a metaphysical essence. All are provisional terms to point to our insubstantial, essence-less and interdependent nature.

Labels: Anatta, Dependent Origination, Zen, Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma |

Everything is empty, dependently originating and dependently designated.

Comments

* Yin LingOh this is so good!

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* Reply

* 15h

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* André A. PaisI'm reminded of Stian's "knock-sound" experiment. Knocking on the table, sound appears: but where is it? Is it in the fingers? In the wood? In the air? In the eardrum or the mind? Is it in the space accommodating all this? In the temporal series expressing this activity? Sound is nowhere to be found, and yet it is vividly present. It lies not in any of the individual conditions, but if a single one of them is removed, sound does not manifest. It arises from nothing in specific, and yet it exists inseparable from all. Ultimately, the whole universe is embodied in this knock-sound movement, but in the whole universe never is it found. It's like the fresh-looking water in a mirage. It is so obviously there - a tired wanderer will spend his last sliver of energy dragging his hurt feet over burning sand to taste that deliciously-looking water. And yet, there is not one atom's worth of water in the mirage. The absolute absence of water is perfectly aligned with and inseparable from the appearance of fresh and vibrant water. The emptiness of water is none other than the form of water. Sound is like the water in a mirage. It is as gloriously present as it is unfathomably absent. It is the entire field of causes and conditions, stretching all space and time, and yet magically abiding and resting nowhere. All causes and conditions are like this. All effects. All reality - space, time, self, other, mind, matter, world. All is gloriously present, vibrant and poignant; all is mysteriously absent, unfindable and ungraspable. Stian Gudmundsen Høiland

It can, but doesn’t need to either. And if it does, there’s gonna be a point where with those “deities”, you won’t find an “actual self” in it. (Which is probably why you brought up them being subject to anatta and no permanent self.)

The magical display doesn’t need an agent in order to appear. It doesn’t even need an agent in order to shift around. It doesn’t need a creator or anything because it IS the “creation” alone.

That “stability” IS it. There’s not any specific agent at work. That “intelligence” IS it. No need for a separate being with intelligence to work in the background, because this magical display alone is the reason there appears to be an “underlying working force”.

It’s more like “embodiment” but there’s no one embodying, it’s just embodiment alone.

So this “embodiment” leads to a sensation of “self” and “deities” and “beings” that are unique from one another doing different efforts and all. Go beyond these ideas and it’s just happening on its own, but that doesn’t mean its meaningless, because when it’s believed to be meaningless, that is an embodiment and the entire display changes its energy based on that perception.

If it is due to certain experience, would you like to share it? Thanks.

I want to distinguish something.

Radiant Anatta, notice that you are talking about "some unknown force/will". And notice how people are replying to you: They are challenging you on this "unknown force/will". Notice the way that they are challenging you on this "unknown force/will". Notice in particular what it does to your mind when they challenge this.

See, I think that the way they are challenging you on this "unknown force/will" (and really notice what I'm saying here:) makes you look away from that "spot"; that spot where you have identified that there is some "unknown force/will". When they negate this "unknown force/will", it mentally or cognitively makes you look away (from that spot).

This is a huge mistake, and those who are challenging you on this "unknown force/will" lack recognition of where you are mentally engaged. And duly note:

You are mentally engaged in (or with) the right "spot". That is to say, the way in which, or fact that, something seems to require "some unknown force/will". That is exactly the thing or spot you want to be looking at and investigating, taking each way it seems to you that it has to be as they come, and remaining curious and sustaining your investigation there. And you are doing that.

Do not be fooled into looking away or ignoring what you are finding by the community's well-meaning hints to not settle your investigation being incongruent with how it appears to you now. It is not that you are not finding the right thing and instead should look for something else or "see" something you are not seeing there (i.e. that you should see that there is no such "unknown force/will"). Instead, you *are* finding the right thing and should simply continue looking exactly in the correct spot you have found, which you have called "due to some unknown force/will".