All buddhism's analysis into no self and empty nature is not to be taken as the final destination ... yes , we can release till none , but still we won't cease to exist , will we ? So in the end , when we release everything , only the One Supreme Will left .... the One without a Second , the Absolute ..

Kyle Dixon/Krodha wrote ten years ago, excerpt from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html


The abiding background can either be (i)awareness separate from phenomena or (ii)awareness merged with phenomena. In either case there is the faculty of awareness which is assumed to be existent. Advaita defines Brahman as being empty of attributes because it is 'that' which knows(the knower). The "knower" is attributeless because through investigation it is unaccounted for in anything perceivable or knowable. In advaita the term neti-neti is implemented (to discover this faculty) which means "not this, not that". So using this negative approach one disavows every conceivable aspect of one's experience until the "knower"(awareness) itself is all that remains. The process is much like; "I am not the body, because I am aware of the body - I am not my thoughts, because I am aware of my thoughts, etc...", so the process retracts into the realm of the formless observer. Since this formless awareness is posited to be unstained by any phenomenal appearance (or designation), it is said to be empty of attributes, unassailable and eternal. Awareness (then still assumed to be embodied) is the atman, and upon actualizing the differentiation between the atman and characteristics which allegedly compose the personal self(jivatman), and external world, the next step is to merge the atman with the brahman(universal self).

Taken from Wikipedia:
"In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism it refers to one's true self beyond identification with phenomena. In order to attain salvation/liberation (moksha) a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana) which is to say realise experientially that one's true self is identical with the transcendent self (paramatman) that is called Brahman."

The merging of the atman and brahman resembles the process involved in buddhism, however the brahman is conceived to be an ultimate suchness. Brahman is sometimes referred to as the Absolute or Godhead which is the Divine Ground of all being. Whereas in buddhism, no such ground nor ultimate suchness exists.

This "ground of all being" is referred to in dzogchen as the alaya. About this Jigme Lingpa states:
"If... when you examine that which abides, the mere reflexive luminosity (rang gsal) of the alaya-vijnana comes up as truly accomplished, then you approach the mistake of the Anekantavada mind-only doctrine."

Jigme Lingpa sets out what he understands the Anekantavada position to be(which mirrors the sentiments of advaita vedanta);
"We hold that the outer object does not exist, and the awareness that apprehends it does not exist either. The awareness that realizes the apprehender and apprehended as nondual is a reflexive awareness and a reflexive luminosity. This is designated as truly existent. This is the alaya-vijnana. Actions and their result are based on it."

The Anekantavada position is criticized for attributing reflexive awareness with true existence. The terms reflexive awareness and reflexive luminosity are often used in the Great Perfection, and figure frequently in the Longchen Nyingtig texts themselves. Jigme Lingpa cannot criticize the use of the terms themselves. He must object to the designation of them as being truly established, that is, existent. As the passage from the Khyentse Melong suggests, this is also a criticism of the position that holds the alaya-vijnana, the basis of consciousness, as the basis of both samsaric and nirvanic awareness. For Jigme Lingpa, and his Seminal Heart sources, the alaya-vijnana is samsaric in nature, a result of delusion and separation from the ground...."

This is why the distinctions between the two types of basis are employed in Dzogchen, the nirvanic basis known as the ground(gzhi) and the samsaric basis of consciousness, the alaya(kun gzhi). One basis, two paths.

Continued:


So the term "empty" in the context of this statement,

asunthatneversets wrote:....in rigpa the localized substratum(or abiding background) is empty and for this reason it(rigpa) is primordially unstained by any distinctive notions or characteristics....


is using 'empty' to show that the notion of a localized abiding substratum is erroneous because it is a dependently originated designation. It is an imputed abstraction born of delusion and is solely the product of misconstrued illusory faculties of mind, mistaken as inherent aspects of experience. These faculties do not constitute being nor non-being and certainly do not result in a localized and enduring substratum which is subject-to and/or merged in/with experience. Though the brahman is also considered to be nondual, timeless, spaceless etc... it is still considered an enduring suchness which is identified with and considered eternal. The nondual, timeless and spaceless aspects of brahman are imputed characteristics or attributes of this 'suchness'(brahman) which is posited to reside beyond the pale of one's intellect(and limited scope of understanding) because one is indeed 'that'. A description along the lines of(and I paraphrase); It hears but cannot be heard, it sees but cannot be seen, it knows but cannot be known, is used to point to the brahman which implies that one cannot know it, because one is indeed it, just as teeth cannot bite themselves, nor fire burn itself. So it has a flavor of taking your limited and temporal beingness and transforming it into a limitless and eternal suchness.

Œakyamuni Buddha came along and revised this testament of eternal beingness championed by hindus/advaitins proclaiming it wasn't the final truth. He therefore created the doctrine of anatman(anatta) where he essentially stated that those who attest that the atman is equivalent to brahman are still victims of a subtle clinging which prevents them from accessing the ultimate truth. He taught that the alleged state of 'being one with brahman' is merely a re-packaging of one's present state of being, tantamount to simply labeling it as something else. The claim that one is indeed brahman(vast, eternal, undying) is merely an escape which doesn't remove the fundamental delusion (one is fastened to) because one doesn't want to lose oneself. One hasn't let go.

Dzogchen avoids (the perpetual evolution of) this fundamental delusion through the direct introduction of one's true nature, which is the union of clarity(luminosity) and emptiness. So right from the start, the mistaken ground of brahman is forsaken as a delusion. This is an empty cognizance, unestablished and illusory. The aspect of ones nature which is mistaken as an abiding substratum is the clarity of the natural state.

Namdrol wrote:

gad rgyangs wrote:there is the irreducible presence of the here and now where we find ourselves.



It's reducible, thank goodness.

In any event, what you are talking about is the famous "clarity" aspect of the mind, the famed Descartes trope, "I can doubt everything but that fact that I am doubting". But this hardly constitutes "the fact of the existent".

Continued:

Xabir shared this insight from Zen Priest Alex R. Weith in the "No-Self And Rigpa" Thread which also addresses the common error of mistaking clarity as an abiding ground:

xabir wrote: (quote from: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2011/10/zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html) Just for the sake of clarification, I would like to make it clear that I never said that "these luminous self-perceiving phenomena which are craving-free and nondual are the Ultimate", if there could still be any ambiguity about that.

On the contrary, I said that what I used to take for an eternal, empty, uncreated, nondual, primordial awareness, source and substance of all things, turned out to be nothing more than the luminous nature of phenomena, themselves empty and ungraspable, somehow crystallized in a very subtle witnessing position.The whole topic of this thread is the deconstruction of this Primordial Awareness, One Mind, Cognizing Emptiness, Self, Atman, Luminous Mind, Tathagatagarbha, or whatever we may call it,

As shocking as it may seem, the Buddha was very clear to say that this pure impersonal objectless nondual awareness (that Vedantists called Atma in Sanskrit, Atta in Pali) is still the aggregate of consciousness and that consciousness, as pure and luminous as it can be, does not stand beyond the aggregates.

Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.' (Anatta-lakkhana Sutta)."

"What I realized also is that authoritative self-realized students of direct students of both Ramana Maharishi and Nisargadatta Maharaj called me a 'Jnani', inviting me to give satsangs and write books, while I had not yet understood the simplest core principles of Buddhism. I realized also that the vast majority of Buddhist teachers, East and West, never went beyond the same initial insights (that Adhyashanti calls "an abiding awakening"), confusing the Atma with the ego, assuming that transcending the ego or self-center (Aha?kara in Sanskrit) was identical to what the Buddha had called anatta (Non-atma).

It would seem therefore that the Buddha had realized the Self at a certain stage of his acetic years (it is not that difficult after all) and was not yet satisfied. As paradoxical as it may seem, his "divide and conquer strategy" aimed at a systematic deconstruction of the Self (Atma, Atta), reduced to -and divided into- what he then called the five aggregates of clinging and the six sense-spheres, does lead to further and deeper insights into the nature of reality. As far as I can tell, this makes me a Buddhist, not because I find Buddhism cool and trendy, but because I am unable to find other teachings and traditions that provide a complete set of tools and strategies aimed at unlocking these ultimate mysteries, even if mystics from various traditions did stumble on the same stages and insights often unknowingly. "

This also means that the first step is to disembed from impermanent phenomena until the only thing that feels real is this all pervading uncreated all pervading awareness that feels like the source and substance of phenomena. Holding on to it after this realization can hower become a subtle form of grasping diguised as letting go.

The second step is therefore to realize that this brightness, awakeness or luminosity is there very nature of phenomena and then only does the duality between the True Self and the appearences arising and passing within the Self dissolve, revealing the suchness of what is.

Continued:


The next step that I found very practical is to push the process of deconstruction a step further, realizing that all that is experienced is one of the six consciousness. In other words, there is neither a super Awareness beyond phenomena, not solid material objects, but only six streams of sensory experiences. The seen, the heard, the sensed, the tasted, the smelled and the cognized (including thoughts, emotions, and subtle thougths like absorbtion states, jhanas).

At this point it is not difficult to see how relevent the Bahiya Sutta can become.



Bahiya Sutta:
In the seen, there is only the seen,
In the heard, there is only the heard,
In the sensed, there is only the sensed,
In the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here(subject);
This Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
In the seen, only the seen,
In the heard, only the heard,
In the sensed, only the sensed,
In the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there(object),
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that you are therefore
located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.
However this statement could still be misinterpreted as implying that the sensory processes do indeed give way to established objects, which in turn constitute some form of suchness. Such a conclusion would be a grave misunderstanding.

I believe in yr subconscious desire of feeling the superiority of yr views and religion u hv confused the characteristics of the path with the final goal and destination .....

The fruition is different.

As John Tan said before about someone else,

“Unless she can drop her current view... haha

It is not that she is wrong, just it is not the same view as Buddhism, more advaita. For advaita, it is perfectly ok and perfect.

So fruition is different since path, view and realization are different.”


Do go through these:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html

Also, Kyle Dixon:

Author: krodha
Date: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:59 pm
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
The Dzogchen tantras explicitly reject the Advaita Vedanta view, so it is quite questionable for a
teacher to suggest the two systems are compatible.
Author: krodha
Date: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:18 pm
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:

Perhaps provisionally, as a mere exercise, but they aren't not intended to lead to the same species of
insight.

Author: krodha
Date: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:46 pm
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Those I know who have dabbled in both systems with some success say that the difference is
experiential.

Author: krodha
Date: Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:30 pm
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:

Because it treats the clarity of mind as being empty/non-arisen, and therefore avoids reifying clarity
into some sort of abiding, background, substratum that serves as a foundation for a witness or true
self, etc.

You should already be familiar with such views, e.g. in seeing there is just the seen, no "seer". Same
goes for the other sense doors, etc... that is the emptiness of clarity.
Genuine insight into this completely decimates the possibility of a witness or a true self etc. Those
who champion such views are merely grasping at clarity (reifying it as something substantial and
independent), which is taught to be a deviation in Dzogpachenpo.

Author: krodha
Date: Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:40 pm
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content

In that way you can see that systems such as Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta go in opposite directions
in terms of praxis. The former sets out to recognize the emptiness of clarity, while the latter reifies
and fortifies clarity.
In Vedanta you take the position as the passive witness. You are the seer, you are the hearer, and
that is your true identity. In Dzogchen the witness is meant to be immediately uprooted, there is no
seer or hearer, the idea of a core witness is an illusion that manifests due to ignorance and habitual
patterns of grasping.