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Someone posted about non meditation but in order for people not to have the wrong idea that non meditation means the neo advaita notion of literally no need for meditation, I shared these excerpts:
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Soh Wei Yu
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Coincidentally, I just read this on Kyle pdf yesterday:
Author: krodha
Date: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:28 pm
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals
Content:
You
as an individual are the result of confusion (or ignorance) about your
primordial state. Your primordial state is originally pure and is always
undefiled, however your knowledge of that primordial state requires
introduction and refinement. The kun byed rgyal po is saying that from
the perspective of your primordial state [primordial wisdom i.e. ye
shes], practice, rituals and so on are extraneous, because your
primordial state is naturally perfected. You as an individual on the
other hand, need to refine your knowledge of your primordial state, and
therefore for you, practice and rituals and so on, are necessary. So
it's a paradox. The ultimate state requires nothing, but you in your
relative condition do require practice. When your knowledge of your
primordial state is complete (through practice and integration), there
will no longer be a difference between you and primordial wisdom. Until
that time though, relative effort is required.
Author: krodha
Date: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals
Content:
Skillful
effort is required until the ultimate nature of mind [sems nyid] is
recognized. Through that recognition, the ability to distinguish mind
from wisdom occurs, and the practice then is to familiarize and rest in
one's knowledge [rig pa] of wisdom [ye shes]. That practice is
'effortless', because effort necessarily entails a subject who is
attempting to 'do something' or 'maintain something'. However there is
nothing which is being 'done' in that sense, because that definitive
rigpa is free of mind, and is therefore free of a subject which is
mediating experience. So the praxis is simply resting in that effortless
natural state.
The
definitive practice is effortless, however initially, some (skillful)
effort is required. Good that you're maintaining a relationship with a
qualified teacher though, the seemingly contradictory paradoxes like the
issue you've raised here are precisely why the guru is an indispensable
aspect of Dzogchen.
Author: krodha
Date: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:24 pm
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals Content:
Yes, and here is a qualified teacher clarifying this point:
"Lopon
comments that while the practitioner is not distracted but is
continuously in the natural state it is as if he or she is in space -
whatever is done, no traces are left behind. As we said, whether you
paint black or white on space nothing remains. The base that keeps the
traces is lost; it is empty.
Of
course this only applies to a practitioner who has achieved continuous
contemplation. For other people who still grasp at their karmic traces
this does not apply. When the Lopon first came to Swayambhu in Nepal in
1944 he met some Tibetans with whom he travelled for some days. One man
was a former monk who had a wife and children and was carrying a huge
load of luggage on his back.
When
he was a monk he had met Dega Rinpoche, a famous Dzogchenpa, in the
mountains and consequentially he gave up his robes because he felt he
was too tied up with the vinaya vows. But Lopon pointed out that he was
equally tied up with his children. The man replied that in Dzogchen it
is said that it does not matter what you do - so he was free to do
anything and that was okay. But this is a complete misunderstanding of
Dzogchen. The teachings only apply when you are totally absorbed in the
natural state. It depends on your practice and only you can judge.
So
it is a paradox that beginners must take actions even though the
ultimate Dzogchen view has no action. The beginner must take a very
strong action - a decision - otherwise there will be doubt and
hesitancy. All the preparatory methods help us realize the natural
state. But once it is seen and understood then the situation is
different. The experience Dzogchenpa would not need to do preparatory
practices at all."
- Lopon Tenzin Namdak
and another from him on the same issue:
"In
the practice of Dzogchen, we do not find it necessary to do
visualizations of deities or to do recitations like the Refuge and
Bodhichitta. Some would say that these are not necessary to do at all,
but this is speaking from the side of the Natural State only. They say
in the Natural State, everything is present there already in potential,
and so there is nothing lacking and nothing more to do to add or acquire
anything. This is fine. But on the side of the practitioner, there is
much to do and practices such as Refuge and Bodhichitta are very
necessary. In its own terms, Dzogchen has no rules; it is open to
everything. But does this mean we can do just what we feel like at the
moment? On the side of the Natural State, this is true and there are no
restrictions or limitations. All appearances are manifestations of mind
(sems kyi snang-ba), like reflections seen in a mirror, and there is no
inherent negativity or impurity in them. Everything is perfectly all
right just as it is, as the energy (rtsal) of the Nature of Mind in
manifestation. It is like white and black clouds passing overhead in the
sky; they equally obscure the face of the sun. When they depart, there
are no traces left behind. However, that is speaking only on the side of
the Natural State, which is like the clear, open sky, unaffected by the
presence or absence of these clouds. For the sky, it is all the same.
But on the side of the practitioner, it is quite different because we
mistakenly believe these clouds are solid, opaque, and quite real and
substantial. As practitioners we must first come to an understanding of
the insubstantiality and unreality of all these clouds which obscure the
sky of our own Nature of Mind (sems-nyid). It is our Tawa (lta-ba), or
view, our way of looking at things, which is basic and fundamental, and
we must begin here. Then we must practice and attain realization. So on
the side of the practitioner, practice and commitment are most certainly
required. The Natural State in itself is totally open and clear and
spacious like the sky but we, as individuals, are not totally open and
unobstructed.”
- Lopon Tenzin Namdak
Author: krodha
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:25 am
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals
Content:
The
kun byed rgyal po is speaking from the ultimate standpoint as
primordial wisdom. The system of Dzogchen is a means to recognize
primordial wisdom, integrate with primordial wisdom, and then actualize
buddhahood. That is what practice is for.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Top contributor
Author: krodha
Date: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:19 pm Title: Re: Integration
Content:
Jean-Luc Achard on integration:
"Oh
yes there are plenty of things to do. Rushen for instance in order to
clearly deepen this knowledge and have a direct experience that is not
produced by our discursiveness. Then, the training of the 3 doors. Then
specific techniques such as the Four Natural Accesses to properly access
the state of Trekcho. You seem to imply that there is nothing to do:
there are things to do to enter this state, and once you're in it you
just cultivate it by integrating other things (after having become
familiarized with it). This appears to be not understood at all in this
discussion. When you are in this state, you just have to stabilize it.
This takes the whole path to do so! (Don't bypass it because you don't
like it, it's precisely like this, one has to practice, period). You may
state otherwise but this is
not
Dzogchen anymore. This is Chan. We don't accept Chan as having a
definitive perspective on the natural state in Dzogchen. This is a
sutra-based approach which is at best dualistic (the 2 truths) or at
worst nihilistic (don't do nothing). Then, what is happening in the
meditation? Nothing, nothing at all. No integration. Once you are stable
in the experience of the natural, you realize that this experience is
uncompounded, unaltered, etc., and you don't have to do anything to
correct it. But in general everybody (including our masters at a stage
in their life) regresses from it. So one has to become familiar with it,
through contemplation practice. But this contemplation practice is
aimless if it just mean sitting and doing nothing. That means that each
time you quit your sitting meditation, you are regressing from that
state because ordinary life is particularly good at putting you back
into an ego- centered life. But, if you want to integrate the natural
state in a non-regressive way, you have to do something (otherwise it
does not do it by itselt just for you). And integration is the very
purpose of Trekcho otherwise your Thogel is not going to go very far. So
again, i'm sorry to repeat it, but in while in the Trekcho state, you
have to integrate 4 things (please Jax learn this by heart, I wrote it
several times but you by-pass it constantly whereas it is the core of
Trekcho practice and of all Dzogchen practices):
1.
integration of the activities of the 3 doors (there are specific things
to integrate here, very precise), 2. integration of the six sense
consciousnesses (also specific things here too),
3. integration of thoughts (same as above), and
4. integration of various things (this larger in scope but precise too).
I'm
not enumerating this list out of my imagination. This is precisely what
one has TO DO in Trekcho practice. If your Trekcho and experience of
the natural state consists in doing nothing, then your result is
nothing. If you try to integrate the 4 modalities listed above (and you
have a lot of specific practices in there), then you integrate your
whole being to the natural state and that is real Trekcho." - Jean-Luc
Achard
P.s. this is adding context to what Lama Lena said above and is not in any way contradicting what Lama Lena has said
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Top contributor
Another nice quote:
Dudjom Rinpoche explains:
"The
mere recognition of vidyā will not liberate you. Throughout your lives
from beginningless time, you have been enveloped in false beliefs and
deluded habits. From then till now you have spent every moment as a
miserable, pathetic slave of your thoughts! And when you die, it’s not
at all certain where you will go. You will follow your karma, and you
will have to suffer. This is the reason
why
you must meditate, continuously preserving the sate of vidyā you have
been introduced to. The omniscient Longchenpa has said, 'You may
recognize your own nature, but if you do not meditate and get used to
it, you will be like a baby left on a battlefield: you’ll be carried off
by the enemy, the hostile army of your own thoughts!' In general terms,
meditation means becoming famiIiar with the state of resting in the
primordial uncontrived nature, through being spontaneously, naturally,
constantly mindful. It means getting used to leaving the state of vidyā
alone, divested of all distraction and clinging."
….
From kyle pdf post:
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals
Content:
I posted some of this elsewhere but it is relevant here and explains my point:
The
guru gives you pointing out instructions, you recognize primordial
wisdom, you rest in that knowledge [vidyā], unerringly, and that is the
path. When that knowledge ripens to it's full measure your vidyā is
dharmakāya, and you are a buddha. The basis, path and result are never
apart from vidyā, because they are simply the refinement of vidyā via
the exhaustion of traces. Our illusory and deluded experiences as
sentient beings, are merely the complex interaction of these karmic
traces, habitual tendencies and afflictive propensities.
Buddhahood
is only attained when these propensities are exhausted, as Longchenpa
elucidates: "Ordinary beings are truly buddhas, but this fact is
obscured by adventitious distortions, once these are removed, truly
there is buddhahood."
There
is no method to apply other than resting in vidyā. The path is
familiarization, stabilization and integration in that view [tib. ta
wa]. It is crucial that the view is maintained tenaciously and one
cultivates non-distraction. If this isn't performed skillfully, then
there is undoubtably a danger of regression into deluded mind. In time
the view will become more and more effortless, however initially it is
important to rely on practice and so on.
This
principle is identical to the three testaments of Garab Dorje: (i)
Introduction to one's nature [basis], (ii) Confidence in one's nature
[path], (iii) Continuation in one's nature [result].
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
"A
seeming confusion obscures the recognition of the basis [gzhi].
Fortunately, this seeming delusion is temporary. This failure to
recognize the basis is similar to dreaming. Dreaming is not primordial;
it is temporary, it can be purified. Purification happens through
training on the path. We have strayed from the basis and become sentient
beings. To free the basis from what obscures it, we have to train.
Right now, we are on the path and have not yet attained the result. When
we are freed from obscuration, then the result - dharmakāya - appears.
The liberated basis, path and result are all perfected in the realm of
the single essence, the continuity of rig pa [vidyā].
In
fact, there is no difference whatsoever between the basis and result.
In the state of the basis the enlightened qualities are not
acknowledged, but they are manifest at the time of the result. These are
not new qualities that suddenly appear, but are like the qualities of a
flower that are inherent in the seed. Within the seed are the
characteristics of the flower itself. The seed holds the potential for
the flower's color, smell, bud and leaves. However, can we say that the
seed is the result of the flower? No, we cannot, because the flower has
not fully bloomed. Like this analogy, the qualities of the result are
contained in the state of the basis; yet, they are not evident or
manifest. That is the difference between the basis and the result. At
the time of the path, if we do not apply effort, the result will not
appear."
So even after
recognition the view must be maintained, this is what practice is for,
otherwise karmic propensities will cause distraction and deviation to
arise in one's condition, as Dudjom Rinpoche explains:
"The
mere recognition of vidyā will not liberate you. Throughout your lives
from beginningless time, you have been enveloped in false beliefs and
deluded habits. From then till now you have spent every moment as a
miserable, pathetic slave of your thoughts! And when you die, it’s not
at all certain where you will go. You will follow your karma, and you
will have to suffer. This is the reason
why
you must meditate, continuously preserving the sate of vidyā you have
been introduced to. The omniscient Longchenpa has said, 'You may
recognize your own nature, but if you do not meditate and get used to
it, you will be like a baby left on a battlefield: you’ll be carried off
by the enemy, the hostile army of your own thoughts!' In general terms,
meditation means becoming famiIiar with the state of resting in the
primordial uncontrived nature, through being spontaneously, naturally,
constantly mindful. It means getting used to leaving the state of vidyā
alone, divested of all distraction and clinging."
Author: krodha
Date: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:03 pm
Title: Re: In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals
Content:
Actually this passage from Dudjom Rinpoche is even better:
"Similarly:
first, the rigpa [vidyā] of having had the introduction is like the
first part of the early dawn; in the middle, the rigpa of having gained
assurance, free from equipoise and post-attainment is like the daybreak;
and finally the rigpa of having gained liberation from extremes is like
the sun shining."
And Mipham Rinpoche states:
"The training of rigpa comes in three steps: recognition, training and finalization."
