Session Start: Thursday, August 24, 2006

(5:45 PM) John: Actually one should mentally let go of everything, then the clarity of presence is real strength.
(5:45 PM) John: letting go of all things is extremely important to create the calmness for Presence to surface.
(5:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:46 PM) John: otherwise what one glimpse is just a moment of our true nature, there is no strength.
(5:46 PM) AEN: icic
(5:47 PM) John: I hope he can go through this depression...it is not easy for him to get beyond what he is suffering now.
(5:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:48 PM) John: when everything isn't going right, relationship, business, family and spirituality, it is almost unbearable.  
(5:48 PM) John: that is what i worry...
(5:48 PM) AEN: oic
(5:48 PM) AEN: worry for him?
(5:49 PM) John: yeah...i told u not to tok to him anything the very first day and just lead him to rest....not even dharma... but just rest his mind.  
(5:50 PM) AEN: oic
(5:50 PM) John: have i been that serious b4 and tell u not to tell anyone about dharma?
(5:50 PM) AEN: nope
(5:51 PM) John: just listen to his him, be a good listener.
(5:52 PM) AEN: oic.. okie
(5:54 PM) John: if we practice, learn how to let go of everything mentally even the Presence that we experienced, this is most important.  
(5:54 PM) John: more thorough than the nihilists.  
(5:54 PM) AEN: oic
(5:54 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(5:54 PM) John: this is very important.  
(5:54 PM) AEN: icic
(5:55 PM) John: when u sit and meditate, just learn how to let go completely everything, until you experience unsurpassed calm and tranquillity
(5:55 PM) John: then be mindful
(5:55 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:55 PM) John: when u are out, mindful of everything u sense.
(5:56 PM) AEN: icic
(5:57 PM) John: when the presence is experienced, the letting go is even more crucial.  When meditating, drop everything including ur Buddha nature.  There is nothing to keep.  This must be the attitude mentally, spiritually.
(5:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:58 PM) John: first let go completely the body, feel like if anyone wants it, give it away...just let go of it...everything...this is prepare you to experience the most subtle.  
(5:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:59 PM) John: because your teachers told you about being aware during all three stages, it is important that u are able to let go everything even the Presence.
(5:59 PM) AEN: wat stages
(6:00 PM) John: so that u r able to experience deep sleep and what is meant by utter cessation of conditions...
(6:00 PM) John: you must give up entirely urself even the presence, then you will be safe.  
(6:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:00 PM) John: don't go for the dream and dreamless sleep, that is not right for most ppl.  
(6:01 PM) John: go for deep sleep and rest and practice the letting go and deep presence during waking state.
(6:01 PM) John: otherwise when the experience comes, i don't think you will be able to cope, just like ur teachers.  
(6:01 PM) AEN: btw wat 3 stages
(6:02 PM) AEN: icic
(6:02 PM) John: i mean the dream and dreamless
(6:02 PM) AEN: oic
(6:02 PM) John: u must experience Presence in the waking and practice the letting go of everything, then it is correct.  The subsiding of everything totally.
(6:03 PM) John: then that is true practice.
(6:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:03 PM) John: not even a single stain of holding anything....let go
(6:04 PM) John: when u meditate, ur body is as if no more...complete letting go
(6:04 PM) John: that is noble
(6:04 PM) John: then practice mindfulness
(6:04 PM) John: the clarity that arise will have strength.
(6:04 PM) AEN: oic
(6:04 PM) John: when that clarity and presence is so total, ur sleep will lessen tremendously
(6:04 PM) John: maybe to 2-hrs
(6:04 PM) AEN: wah
(6:05 PM) John: or 2-5 hrs
(6:05 PM) John:  
(6:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:05 PM) John: because there will be no tiredness
(6:05 PM) AEN: icic
(6:06 PM) John: but by that time ur practice of letting go completely and die by submitting urself to emptiness and DO instead of presence, will let u overcome 'Self' completely.
(6:06 PM) John: You can prevent from being like TheVoice or your teachers.
(6:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:06 PM) John: Your teachers engage in activities that is very important
(6:07 PM) John: in fact one way to get TheVoice out is to engage in activities.
(6:07 PM) AEN: icic
(6:07 PM) AEN: isnt he engaging in activities
(6:07 PM) AEN: hahaah
(6:07 PM) John: i mean helping others  
(6:07 PM) John: in dharma...
(6:07 PM) AEN: orh icic
(6:07 PM) John: but think it is difficult for he himself is so confused.  
(6:07 PM) AEN: oic
(6:08 PM) AEN: brb
(6:08 PM) AEN: back
(6:09 PM) AEN: hmm actually i tink my teachers do know about emptiness although they didnt teach a lot on tat..  
(6:09 PM) John: i know...teacher chen is already very high
(6:10 PM) John: but that stage is very difficult to overcome
(6:10 PM) AEN: u mean 'presence'?  
(6:10 PM) John: just learn how to let go of everything...
(6:10 PM) John: hahahahahah longchen...
(6:11 PM) John: it is time for him to let go of everything....and experience the vivid presence.  
(6:11 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:13 PM) AEN: so teacher chen's stage v difficult to overcome? lol
(6:13 PM) John: it is be dead to the Presence.  
(6:14 PM) John: not teacher chen lah
(6:14 PM) John: ur lzls...be dead to Presence.  
(6:14 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:14 PM) AEN: icic
(6:15 PM) John: everyone must be dead to Presence.  
(6:15 PM) AEN: oic y
(6:15 PM) AEN: hm
(6:15 PM) AEN: but u said to let go of presence?
(6:15 PM) John: yes.  
(6:16 PM) John: actually u will understand what i meant when u start with letting go of ur body so firm and steady during meditation.
(6:17 PM) John: the calmness and tranquillity will lead u forward to enhance your understanding of Presence.
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:18 PM) John: when the practice is correct, everything thing will seem very smooth.  
(6:18 PM) John: but still a bit of suffering is still necessary.  
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:21 PM) John: u know who is swami Rama?
(6:21 PM) AEN: nope.. who is he?
(6:21 PM) John: the one that can stop heart beats from pumping...lol
(6:21 PM) AEN: wahh
(6:21 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:22 PM) AEN: din know  
(6:22 PM) AEN: oh i know
(6:22 PM) AEN: when a person enter deep samadhi their heartbeat and breathing stop
(6:22 PM) AEN: oh ya anyway u said when u meditate u know u are sleeping bcos of sleeping symptoms and snoring etc
(6:22 PM) AEN: but will u know about tat when u are meditating? or someone else tell u?
(6:23 PM) John: now...u must know one thing...
(6:23 PM) John: Presence exists in all three stages
(6:23 PM) John: it is the memories that is not there.
(6:23 PM) AEN: icic
(6:24 PM) John: that is in deep sleep, there is a very short period u lost memories
(6:24 PM) John: and u can remember.
(6:24 PM) John: can't
(6:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:24 PM) John: actually we rest very lil in mind only the body rest
(6:24 PM) John: during sleep.
(6:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:25 PM) John: but one will not be able to notice it and experience Presence correctly without the ability to keep the body at total rest.
(6:25 PM) John: the experience is different.
(6:26 PM) John: first work through the waking state and know what exactly presence is.
(6:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:26 PM) John: until it gather strength, so strength that it creates the momentum to penetrate other states naturally
(6:26 PM) John: but it must come from a deep calm of letting go
(6:27 PM) John: experience the subsiding of every moment
(6:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:27 PM) John: but start with the body
(6:27 PM) AEN: icic but when one practises mindfulness of breathing naturally one will let go of body isnt it
(6:27 PM) John: then when ur body is in complete rest, u will know
(6:27 PM) AEN: oic
(6:28 PM) John: that depends
(6:28 PM) John: it must be a real deep letting go to experience the bliss and calm i tell u.
(6:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:28 PM) John: calm first.
(6:28 PM) John: bliss must come along with vividness and clarity
(6:28 PM) AEN: oic
(6:28 PM) John: without thoughts
(6:29 PM) John: then let it penetrates naturally
(6:29 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:29 PM) John: when the Presence is felt and the willingness to let go of itself is experienced, u will understand what i mean.
(6:30 PM) AEN: icic
(6:30 PM) John: then coupled with the resting of the body, u will be able to take on the challenges.  
(6:30 PM) John: otherwise, u will suffer.  
(6:30 PM) AEN: icic
(6:31 PM) John: the practice is like becoming a perfect nihilist and realist
(6:31 PM) AEN: lol
(6:31 PM) John: at the same time...ehehehe
(6:31 PM) AEN: oic
(6:31 PM) John: ur letting go must be more thorough than any nihilist.  
(6:32 PM) John: ur Presence must be more thorough than any realist.
(6:32 PM) John: through the right understanding of emptiness.
(6:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:32 PM) John: but when u r practicing, it might not be so easy to go through.
(6:33 PM) John: because we engaged in so much intellectual activities and do not really practice impermanence and emptiness
(6:33 PM) AEN: lol
(6:33 PM) AEN: icic
(6:33 PM) John: though we experience Presence, the root is not strong and we are unable to contain the experience.
(6:34 PM) AEN: oic
(6:34 PM) John: be real to impermanence is neither intellectual nor conceptual, it is total disengaging mentally....it must result in deep and serene calmness.
(6:35 PM) John: this is a very important factor for true Presence to surface.
(6:35 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:35 PM) AEN: actually vipassana and samatha is practised at the same time isnt it
(6:35 PM) John: nope
(6:35 PM) AEN: oic
(6:36 PM) AEN: but by practising mindfulness, one will become calmer?
(6:36 PM) John: concentration can come first and led to insight later and vice versa.
(6:36 PM) AEN: oic
(6:36 PM) John: but both must come eventually.
(6:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:36 PM) AEN: can insight come before concentration?
(6:37 PM) John: there can be great intensity of clarity and presence and understood our Buddha's nature.
(6:37 PM) AEN: do u tink its necessary to go through 4 jhanas? lol
(6:37 PM) AEN: oic
(6:37 PM) John: But suffering will still exist
(6:37 PM) AEN: icic
(6:37 PM) John: that is because of us not being able to let go...we focus too much on the luminosity and claim only in words about the emptiness nature.
(6:38 PM) John: the strength that must be resulted from disbanding and letting go is not experienced.
(6:38 PM) John: that will cause suffering.
(6:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:38 PM) John: this is like the case of TheVoice.
(6:38 PM) AEN: oic
(6:39 PM) John: a certain aspect of luminosity is experienced but there is no strength and without good karmic conditions, he will not be able to overcome it that easily.
(6:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:40 PM) AEN: u mentioned before he is seeking to 'recapture' the experience?  
(6:40 PM) John: yes
(6:41 PM) John: ur center might have the tendency of over emphasizing the luminosity aspect unknowingly...though emptiness is taught.
(6:41 PM) John: when emphasis is placed on the highest aspect
(6:41 PM) AEN: lol icic... hmm u come to my center dharma talk b4 meh?  
(6:41 PM) AEN: oic
(6:41 PM) John: it can turn negative.
(6:42 PM) AEN: highest aspect meaning ?
(6:42 PM) John: self spontaneity
(6:42 PM) AEN: oic.. y will it turn negative
(6:43 PM) John: because identification and attachment is very subtle, we are too consumed about the greatness of our buddha's nature.  
(6:43 PM) AEN: oic
(6:43 PM) John: i always tell u it is not that great what.
(6:43 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:53 PM) John: ken wilber say he took 30 years to come to his experience
(6:53 PM) AEN: isit?
(6:54 PM) John: and it normally takes at least that long to understand
(6:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:54 PM) AEN: when he started
(6:54 PM) John: 30 years ago...
(6:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:58 PM) John: sometimes i think that he is over joyed.
(6:59 PM) John: placed too much emphasis on the Presence...non buddhist.
(6:59 PM) John: hinduism...
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:59 PM) AEN: but how come his level of understanding i tot u say v high
(6:59 PM) AEN: lol
(7:00 PM) John: yeah...
(7:00 PM) John: i do not know what is beyond that.  
(7:00 PM) John: as a lay practitioner, i do not know what is beyond that.
(7:01 PM) John: it is the degree of letting go, i do not know how much strength
(7:01 PM) AEN: icic...
(7:01 PM) John: in terms of anatta and the experience of the luminous clarity, i have no doubt.
(7:01 PM) John: that is very clear. (comments: as John later clarifies, Ken Wilber is more of substantialist non-dualism than anatta)
(7:01 PM) AEN: oic
(7:02 PM) John: not just an I AMness, means clarity of no-self
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:02 PM) John: and penetration into the dream and dreamless states...but since his is tantric practice
(7:02 PM) John: i do not want to make much comments
(7:03 PM) AEN: his is dzogchen practise
(7:03 PM) AEN: y wont make comments
(7:03 PM) John: all sort of practices
(7:03 PM) AEN: icic
(7:03 PM) AEN: actually dzogchen also place alot of importance on 'presence' isnt it
(7:03 PM) John: yes
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:04 PM) John: but he practice under many enlightened masters.
(7:04 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: ya i read his website he got teach with a rinpoche in new york b4
(7:04 PM) AEN: lol
(7:04 PM) John: eh?
(7:04 PM) AEN: wait
(7:04 PM) John: what is the url?
(7:05 PM) AEN: http://www.kenwilber.com/news/show/82?page=9
(7:05 PM) AEN: he and traleg rinpoche will be teaching on the practise of 'lojong' some sort of vajrayana practise
(7:06 PM) John: ic...
(7:06 PM) AEN: and this one is weird
(7:06 PM) AEN: http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/110
(7:06 PM) AEN: lol
(7:06 PM) AEN: his muscles turn purple?
(7:06 PM) John: hope one is not engaged in materialistic pursue.  
(7:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:07 PM) AEN: but since his realisation is quite high he will not be too attached to materialism isnt it
(7:07 PM) AEN: lol
(7:13 PM) John: how we know ah...
(7:14 PM) John: practice hard...understand emptiness and let go and experience Presence.  The bliss will come.  
(7:14 PM) John: then u will know what is most important.  
(7:14 PM) John: he hurt pretty badly.
(7:14 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:14 PM) AEN: u mean his bruise ?
(7:14 PM) John: yeah
(7:15 PM) AEN: ya
(7:15 PM) John: he thought he gonna die...lol.
(7:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:15 PM) AEN: yea
(7:15 PM) John:  
(7:16 PM) John: anyway...sustain of presence of presence can be due to a natural momentum or a very subtle and strong attachment of the 'Self'.  
(7:16 PM) AEN: sustain of presence of presence?
(7:16 PM) AEN: icic
(7:17 PM) John: that is, in dreamless state, it can be due to the unwillingness of letting as a result of subtle attachment
(7:17 PM) John: most likely the case.  
(7:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:17 PM) John: it is not natural momentum.
(7:17 PM) AEN: u have experienced tat in the past?
(7:17 PM) John: the letting go into deep sleep is very important and let it turns in naturally.
(7:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:17 PM) John: even now.  
(7:17 PM) AEN: huh
(7:18 PM) AEN: how come
(7:18 PM) John: it is not easy to differentiate....one has to be utterly truthful.
(7:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:18 PM) John: but i have practice the letting go few years back.
(7:19 PM) AEN: icic...
(7:19 PM) John: and it helps me to see more clearly instead of being lured into the idea of thinking i have achieved great height of attainment.  
(7:19 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:20 PM) John: because of our mind is so clear, our sleep actually shorten to very few hours and to enter into deep sleep from that mental alertness isn't easy.
(7:20 PM) John: we rather meditate.
(7:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:20 PM) John: then we thought that is a natural state.
(7:20 PM) AEN: icic
(7:21 PM) John: i tried it about 1.5 yrs back and notice the difference.  
(7:21 PM) AEN: tried wat
(7:21 PM) AEN: meditating ?
(7:21 PM) John: the body must be completely at rest...that is a pre-condition.
(7:21 PM) AEN: icic
(7:21 PM) John: for the body to be completely at rest, u must learn to let go completely...
(7:22 PM) John: even to Presence...
(7:22 PM) AEN: but presence is a natural state rite?
(7:22 PM) John: but the letting go of the body is already a great achievement...the strength of calmness and letting go somehow let u overcome the attachment to Presence.
(7:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:23 PM) John: Presence has to be a natural state, it might not be a natural state.  
(7:23 PM) AEN: huh?
(7:24 PM) John: the experience of true presence has to be as natural as possible, it is a reflection of our purity due to the loosening of our inner bond.
(7:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:25 PM) John: however for one that has experience presence, he is able to feel the Presence in and out like a deliberate attempt.  This is because he is able to go beyond thoughts and concepts
(7:25 PM) John: but the attachment is still working behind him.
(7:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:25 PM) John: it depends what energy is stronger
(7:26 PM) John: so we must practice letting go through correct understanding of impermanence and emptiness
(7:26 PM) John: it is not easy to let go...the mind will tend to identify
(7:26 PM) John: and the identification will make us cling.
(7:26 PM) John: the state of Presence can become an object of experience for a practitioner to cling
(7:27 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:27 PM) John: and that becomes a problem.
(7:27 PM) AEN: oic
(7:27 PM) John: u must start practicing...to refine ur understanding.
(7:27 PM) AEN: but clinging and identification to any states will prevent one from experience presence isnt it?
(7:27 PM) AEN: ok
(7:28 PM) John: yes but because Presence pops in and out, it is difficult to notice.
(7:28 PM) John: meaning it use to be thoughts
(7:28 PM) John: but now it is presence
(7:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:29 PM) John: there is nothing wrong with the experience of presence, but it is the attachment.
(7:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:29 PM) John: it is the subtle attachment that prevent us from deep sleep because we are unwilling to let go of that experience.
(7:30 PM) AEN: icic
(7:30 PM) John: though one will not feel anything wrong or it does not disturb one much, it is not a form of achievement as described.  
(7:30 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:30 PM) John: it is a retrogression instead.
(7:30 PM) AEN: icic
(7:31 PM) John: when one is able to let go and let everything subsides even the loss of consciousness, it is a more profound state instead.
(7:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:31 PM) John: it has to be a natural momentum that is being built up.
(7:31 PM) AEN: icic
(7:32 PM) AEN: is there presence in nirvana?
(7:32 PM) John: until the propensities is gone, the letting go is complete, it is illuminated everywhere.
(7:32 PM) AEN: icic
(7:32 PM) John: total presence is nirvana...at least to me.  
(7:32 PM) AEN: icic
(7:32 PM) John: to me there is no further.
(7:32 PM) John: if the letting go is thorough.
(7:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:33 PM) John: then the Presence is complete.
(7:33 PM) AEN: icic
(7:34 PM) John: there is a great diff between subtle attachment that we unwillingly go into sleep and letting the conditions take place without self, just empty phenomenon takes it own course.
(7:34 PM) AEN: oic..

Session Start: Saturday, August 26, 2006

(6:52 PM) John: about the mahamudra, some say its the 4th turning.  
(6:53 PM) John: But it is the experience of total Presence.
(6:53 PM) AEN: meaning?
(6:53 PM) AEN: u mean 4th turning = total presence
(6:53 PM) AEN: wats the diff between 3rd and 4th
(6:54 PM) John: the teaching is to directly experience the buddha's nature.
(6:54 PM) John: like zen to me.  
(6:54 PM) AEN: oic.. but isnt it same as 3rd which also about buddha nature
(6:55 PM) John: yeah
(6:55 PM) John: so i don't see a diff.  
(6:55 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:55 PM) AEN: oic
(6:55 PM) John: wonder why some call it 4th turning.  
(6:55 PM) John: to me, there is no real mark of distinction.
(6:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:56 PM) John: but because it is a tibetan practices, i do not really know is there any hidden teaching.  From the books I have read, it is just the direct experience of our Pristine Awareness.
(6:57 PM) AEN: oic...
(6:57 PM) John: I do not advice ppl to go into experiencing of Buddha's nature directly.
(6:57 PM) AEN: icic
(6:57 PM) John: one should always start from developing the qualities of the mind...
(6:58 PM) AEN: icic... paramitas?
(6:58 PM) John: to experience the deep calmness resulting from settling our thoughts
(6:58 PM) AEN: oic
(6:58 PM) John: still our mind
(6:58 PM) AEN: icic
(6:58 PM) John: then wisdom
(6:58 PM) AEN: oic
(6:58 PM) AEN: is stilling our mind considered shamatha?
(6:59 PM) John: not exactly but it can be by any practices as long as it lead us to the experience of this calmness
(6:59 PM) John: mindfulness of breath
(6:59 PM) John: or mindfulness itself or chanting
(6:59 PM) John: one must experience this calmness first.
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:59 PM) John: because it is the 'ground' that strengthen other experience
(6:59 PM) AEN: icic
(7:00 PM) John: however some ppl are vested with the conditions to experience the end-result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience.
(7:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:00 PM) John: like experiencing our buddha nature directly.
(7:00 PM) AEN: icic
(7:01 PM) John: then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understanding of this experience.
(7:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:01 PM) John: like those experiencing "I AMness".
(7:01 PM) AEN: oic
(7:01 PM) John: it is a mistaken identity
(7:01 PM) AEN: icic
(7:02 PM) John: due to our karmic propensities, they cannot discern the nature of that experience.
(7:02 PM) John: however after many years of contemplation, they are able to have deeper glimpse of it.
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:03 PM) John: and the next stage is the experience of no-self to further refine their understanding.
(7:03 PM) AEN: icic
(7:04 PM) John: the mind then is experienced as a crystal clear mirror, there is no-I.  Then emptiness must step in to know that there is no mirror in the first place reflecting anything.
(7:04 PM) John: the manifestation is the arising is the buddha's nature.
(7:04 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:05 PM) John: there is no mirror bright at all, the arising is the buddha nature itself.  Samsara is Nirvana.
(7:05 PM) John: even with this illumination, one is not able to overcome the defilement, our karmic propensities.
(7:05 PM) AEN: icic
(7:05 PM) John: because they do not start from the perfection of the calmness, there is no strength
(7:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:06 PM) John: they are unable to 'control' their thoughts (meaning settle their thoughts)
(7:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:07 PM) John: when we reached a state of deep calmness and we turn into it into mindfulness, then there is the experience of blissfulness, clarity and vitality and wisdom
(7:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:07 PM) John: stilling the body and mind only result in a deep and stable calmness that gather strength.
(7:08 PM) AEN: oic
(7:08 PM) John: for the other quality to arise, it needs the direct experience and intuitive wisdom  
(7:08 PM) AEN: oic
(7:09 PM) John: that is why i told longchen to eliminate the presence and start experience the deep calmness by letting go.
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:09 PM) John: the letting go is to settle the mind till he is about to have mastery over the thought patterns
(7:10 PM) John: this is very important for progress.
(7:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:10 PM) John: direct perception is crucial, because buddha nature cannot be understood conceptually
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) John: but without the ground of deep calmness, there is no strength.  And one might suffer because we do not know how to deal with these experience.
(7:11 PM) John: i go makan first.
(7:11 PM) John:  
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic  
(7:11 PM) AEN: ok

(7:38 PM) John: "Generally, as in the Theravadin Buddhist tradition and the Samkhya yogic schools, whenever you enter this state of unmanifest absorption, it burns away certain linger afflictions and sources of ignoance. Each time you fully enter this state, more of these afflictions are burned away. and after a certain number and type of these entranes - often four-  you have burned away everything there is to ob
(7:38 PM) John: who said this?
(7:42 PM) AEN: ken wilber
(7:42 PM) AEN: a brief history of everyting
(7:42 PM) AEN: lol
(7:42 PM) John: not bad.  
(7:43 PM) John: about the emptiness he is toking about, is the no-self.  That is manifestation itself.  
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(9:49 PM) John: u got the book "a history of everything' ?
(10:03 PM) AEN: borrowed from library
(10:07 PM) AEN: when a paperback version of it releases months from now maybe i'll buy it. and also integral spirituality... a new book by wilber going to release in october
(11:01 PM) John: yeah...i think it is okie to keep a book of ken wilber.  I like his description of the no-self.  
(11:01 PM) John: just do not know the strength.  
(11:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:07 PM) John: when there is the experience of everything as pristine awareness, there cannot be a 'self' or any sense of 'I'.  To have strength of this experience, the deep sense of calmness from complete stillness of the body as well as the mind are the conditions.  The problems is if we did not go through the proper stage, we will based on or unknowingly exercise our intellect to capture that experience.
(11:07 PM) John: it is the quality of the mind that is important, not the content of it.  The quality must come from just the sensing, nothing about intellect.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:11 PM) John: after longchen has more experience of the no-self nature of the pristine awareness, the next step is to gather strength through experiencing that sense of calmness and tranquillity and then fuse his anatta experience into this tranquil calm.
(11:11 PM) John: then experience the total dissolving of the consciousness of Presence into deep sleep.
(11:11 PM) John: Dare to face the great death and be nothing.
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic...
(11:11 PM) AEN: wat great death
(11:13 PM) John: merge completely into the place as if we were never there b4....love and fuse completely into nothingness....don't worry about anything...total wakefulness when waking and complete death in deep sleep.  This is true presence according to conditions.
(11:13 PM) John: the mental states of sleep must emerge before we become no one there.  
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:14 PM) John: until this is perfectly clear...means u can go into deep sleep by controlling the thought pattern (slowing down our thoughts)...we will enter into sleep.
(11:14 PM) John: that is why i said when some one say that they are so awareness that brings them beyond the night is not true experience.
(11:15 PM) John: because there is no control of thoughts at all.
(11:15 PM) John: this is due to the lack of practice or overlook the practice of deep calmness.
(11:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:15 PM) John: that provides the ground of controlling thoughts pattern.
(11:16 PM) John: this is very very important.
(11:16 PM) John: in fact that is always the base of practice.
(11:16 PM) John: that is way the simplest way of keeping the mind still is taught to all levels.
(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:16 PM) John: chanting first even if one does not have the capacity of understanding anything.
(11:16 PM) John: any form of practice must start from there....that is the best.
(11:17 PM) John: then progress slowly.
(11:17 PM) AEN: any form of practise must start from chanting?
(11:18 PM) John: however if the capacity and conditions are already there and so close to experience the more profound experience of our pristine awareness, we have to lead one to the experience first then later slowly lead him into the experience of the tranquil calmness to stabilize the experience.
(11:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:19 PM) John: no..any form of experience must lead one to experience the tranquil calm, it comes from keeping the mind still.  But stilling of mind comes easier from stilling the body first.  
(11:19 PM) AEN: oh icic
(11:20 PM) AEN: how does one still the body?
(11:20 PM) John: but this state will not experience the luminous clarity of our pristine awareness
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic
(11:20 PM) John: the posture is very important
(11:20 PM) AEN: oh icic
(11:20 PM) John: and the watch our breath is best to me...
(11:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:21 PM) John: mindfulness has the effect of luminosity and calmness
(11:21 PM) John: ingenious way towards enlightenment
(11:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:22 PM) John: but to come to the understanding of everything as awareness like the experience of ken wilber requires deep yuan.
(11:22 PM) John: this is one thing that puzzles me.  
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:23 PM) AEN: why puzzle you?
(11:23 PM) AEN: what kind of deep yuan? yuan with wat
(11:23 PM) John: because i also realised that even when one is deep into the practice of mindfulness, one need not experience our pristine awareness
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic
(11:24 PM) AEN: ya and some ppl who never cultivated anything can become enlightened after hearing some sutra verse
(11:24 PM) AEN: lol
(11:24 PM) John: or see that our pristine awareness is everything and there is really nothing else.  It is the only reality.  There is absolutely no one in between.
(11:24 PM) John:  
(11:24 PM) AEN: icic
(11:24 PM) AEN: when chuang tzu said tao is everywhere, is his understanding different?
(11:25 PM) John: hm...a lil different.  
(11:25 PM) John: there is another experience when no-self is experience...that is the vitality aspect
(11:26 PM) John: that is the experience of life giver presence everywhere
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic.
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:26 PM) AEN: like casino king like that?
(11:26 PM) AEN: then chuang tzu is something like tat also?
(11:26 PM) John: that connect us to everything
(11:26 PM) AEN: oic
(11:27 PM) John: when we experience anatta to a very deep state, luminosity and vitality through emptiness nature is experienced as one.
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic
(11:28 PM) John: zhuang zhi is not keen in expressing luminosity aspect but rather how the tao is expressed in its profundity.  
(11:28 PM) AEN: huh?
(11:28 PM) AEN: oh but last time u say chuang tzu emphasize on 'non-doing until luminosity is clear'?
(11:29 PM) John: i do not like to tok about "I AM"
(11:29 PM) John: but "I AM" is a very important state.
(11:29 PM) AEN: icic
(11:29 PM) John: however i tok about no-self and emptiness and our pristine awareness...
(11:29 PM) John: most of the time the happening, nothing about the source...
(11:30 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:30 PM) John: and the spontaneous arising later as the expression of luminosity and vitality
(11:30 PM) John: but never the 'self' or 'i' or anything.
(11:30 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:31 PM) John: only for the explanation we spoke of the Self' when comparing to the tathagatagarbatha sutra and vedanta teachings.
(11:31 PM) John: similarly Tao Te Jing is also the same....
(11:31 PM) AEN: oic
(11:31 PM) John: just the expression of Tao
(11:31 PM) John: the Self-So
(11:31 PM) John: the naturalness
(11:31 PM) John: the non action
(11:31 PM) John: the depth
(11:32 PM) John: never the who or where or what
(11:32 PM) John: this is how lao tze express it...just the way
(11:32 PM) AEN: icic...
(11:33 PM) John: Lao-Tse never tok about self realization
(11:33 PM) John: only taoist in the later years
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic
(11:34 PM) John: when they got affected by buddhism
(11:34 PM) John: seeing our nature to equate it with tao.
(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:35 PM) John: however for one that already attained, one can speak from the Tao level penetrating heaven, human and earth
(11:35 PM) John: there is no diff.
(11:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:37 PM) John: meditative posture is really important.
(11:37 PM) John: to still the body
(11:37 PM) John: when we are young, we should keep this posture
(11:38 PM) John: and use it to help keep our thoughts
(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:38 PM) John: u must experience the entire body as no more there, no more a hindrance and completely still just like the time u lost the sense of ur hands.
(11:39 PM) John: except that it is ur entire body this time.
(11:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:39 PM) AEN: lost the sense of my hands?
(11:39 PM) John: ur lower half of ur body ....something like that...when u tell me..
(11:39 PM) John: hehehe
(11:39 PM) AEN: oh
(11:39 PM) John: forgotten
(11:39 PM) AEN: ya
(11:39 PM) AEN: not hand.. lower half of body
(11:39 PM) AEN: but only for a short while
(11:39 PM) AEN: then meditation time over
(11:39 PM) AEN: haha
(11:40 PM) John: yeah i know...how can it for long lah
(11:40 PM) AEN: i tink if i continue
(11:40 PM) John: u think u r me ah
(11:40 PM) AEN: the whole body will become like that
(11:40 PM) John: lol
(11:40 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(11:40 PM) AEN: oh its over not bcos i couldnt sustain but bcos the meditation session was over
(11:41 PM) John: lol

(11:46 PM) John: u must learn how to keep ur mind in deep calmness even if luminosity din arise, the calmness is important...it is a form of stillness
(11:47 PM) John: our entire life is about this thought pattern...
(11:47 PM) John: watch it.
(11:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:47 PM) John: until complete stillness then we can experience the clarity of luminosity and no-self
(11:48 PM) John: even if one having experience of our nature, without the strength, it is useless
(11:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:48 PM) John: a person that can keep his mind in chanting is even better.  At least that helps him during death.
(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:51 PM) John: she must gather strength in the stilling the mind and experience the deep tranquil calm and later fuse the experience of Presence into it.
(11:51 PM) AEN: oic
(11:52 PM) John: she will not be able to understand the dreamless sleep state.
(11:52 PM) AEN: icic
(11:52 PM) John: she will suffer from the Deep Presence because it is still using intellect to keep the Presence.
(11:53 PM) AEN: oic
(11:53 PM) John: the experience of Presence is true experience but it can only be stabilized from the experience of stilling the mind.
(11:53 PM) AEN: but she say usually she doesnt have tat kind of thoughts and cld remain in thoughtless state for very long time leh.. and seldom have tat kind of situation
(11:53 PM) AEN: oic
(11:53 PM) John: when ppl say stilling, it is not true stilling...it is the suspension of thoughts and conceptualization during waking state.
(11:54 PM) John: when experiencing Presence.
(11:54 PM) John: This is not the tranquil calm i m toking about.
(11:54 PM) AEN: icic
(11:54 PM) John: it is a state where we have a sort of mastery of thoughts
(11:55 PM) AEN: oic
(11:55 PM) John: remember this hah
(11:56 PM) AEN: o ok
(11:57 PM) John: u know about delta wave right?
(11:57 PM) AEN: brain waves?
(11:57 PM) John: yeah
(11:57 PM) AEN: ya
(11:57 PM) John: the deep sleep phase
(11:57 PM) AEN: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=147756
(11:57 PM) AEN: lol
(11:57 PM) John: that is directly related to thought pattern.
(11:57 PM) AEN: eh the image no more
(11:57 PM) AEN: icic
(11:58 PM) John: image no more is different...though there is no images...eheheh
(11:58 PM) John: imagelessness is related to the deep Presence
(11:58 PM) AEN: no i mean the website   
(11:58 PM) John: it is the experience of pure awareness
(11:58 PM) AEN: picture gone
(11:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:58 PM) John: ic
(11:59 PM) AEN: hmm so during sleep one must eliminate presence?
(11:59 PM) John: no...
(11:59 PM) John: Presence cannot be eliminated
(11:59 PM) AEN: icic
(11:59 PM) AEN: ok
(12:00 AM) John: it is just a way to tell someone to rid the attachment  
(12:00 AM) AEN: oic
(12:00 AM) John: when the mind is still clouded, the alertness is gone
(12:00 AM) John: but the wakefulness is not the sort of wakefulness that we think
(12:01 AM) John: sleep is the experience of absence
(12:01 AM) John: nothingness as an object  
(12:01 AM) AEN: oic
(12:01 AM) John: means awareness experiencing "nothingness" as an object.
(12:01 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:02 AM) John: when conditions of senses is too subtle and the thought pattern come to a rest...
(12:02 AM) John: what is the thought pattern, actually it is a sense of 'tense'
(12:03 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:04 AM) John: how many hours ur teacher chen meditate a day?
(12:04 AM) John: in one go
(12:04 AM) AEN: im not sure leh... i tink i remembered wrongly, maybe not 6 hours... but i know alot
(12:05 AM) AEN: maybe is 6 hours.. i tink i heard tat from my mom but dunnu whether got remember wrongly or she said wrongly
(12:05 AM) John: wah...ic.
(12:05 AM) AEN: bcos he no longer working
(12:05 AM) John: 6 hours a day or one sitting
(12:05 AM) John: icic
(12:05 AM) AEN: now he lives in his dharma center
(12:05 AM) AEN: erm one sitting.. maybe not la
(12:05 AM) AEN: i mean everyday
(12:05 AM) AEN: maybe he split into few sessions
(12:06 AM) John: ic
(12:06 AM) John: otherwise that is quite long
(12:06 AM) AEN: icic
(12:07 AM) John: when i meditate, i will do a yogic posture to straighten my back first.
(12:07 AM) John: quite a difficult posture...
(12:07 AM) John: not suitable for u
(12:07 AM) AEN: huh how
(12:07 AM) AEN: oic
(12:08 AM) AEN: wat kind of yogic posture
(12:09 AM) John: it is left hand pulling the big toe of my right leg and right hand pulling the big toe of my left leg from behind my back in full lotus posture
(12:09 AM) AEN: wahhh
(12:09 AM) AEN: first part ok second part dunnu how to do
(12:10 AM) AEN: lol
(12:10 AM) John: then i raise my head and breath and slowly release it and relax into mindfulness of breath first
(12:10 AM) John: lol
(12:10 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:10 AM) AEN: where u learnt tat from
(12:10 AM) AEN: eh actually i can do
(12:10 AM) AEN: quite easy. if in full lotus posture
(12:10 AM) AEN: if not impossible haha
(12:11 AM) John: huh...u can do it?
(12:11 AM) AEN: yea quite easy for me
(12:11 AM) John: sit in full lotus posture first
(12:11 AM) John: then cross both ur arms from behind
(12:11 AM) AEN: just now i tried in non-full lotus like normal seating and feel like my hand breaking haha
(12:12 AM) AEN: icic
(12:12 AM) John: from behind leh
(12:12 AM) AEN: yea i know lol
(12:12 AM) AEN: but i guess only works for full lotus seaters like me... many ppl cant even do full lotus
(12:12 AM) John: then left hand grab ur left leg big toe
(12:12 AM) AEN: actually no need.. half lotus can liao
(12:13 AM) AEN: oic
(12:13 AM) John: then right hand grab ur right left big toe
(12:13 AM) John: u know what i mean or not
(12:13 AM) John: because u sit in full lotus posture, ur left leg is at ur right side
(12:14 AM) AEN: then right hand grab ur right left big toe --> sorry u typed wrongly?
(12:14 AM) AEN: right hand grab what?
(12:14 AM) AEN: oh
(12:14 AM) AEN: okok
(12:14 AM) John: right hand grab ur right leg big toe from behind
(12:14 AM) AEN: yup
(12:15 AM) John: then slot ur left hand from behind ur back and grab ur left left big toe
(12:15 AM) AEN: ok.. doable
(12:15 AM) John: then pull the two big toes and lift ur head
(12:16 AM) John: and breath deeply...inhale and exhale 10 times
(12:17 AM) AEN: ok
(12:17 AM) John: then relax ur go into half lotus posture and still ur back and meditate....relax and feel the breath and heart beats
(12:17 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:17 AM) AEN: half lotus ? can full lotus? lol
(12:17 AM) John: can
(12:17 AM) AEN: ok
(12:17 AM) AEN: u sit half or full lotus
(12:17 AM) John: u meditate in full lotus posture?
(12:17 AM) AEN: ya
(12:17 AM) John: i still in half lotus posture
(12:17 AM) AEN: icic
(12:18 AM) John: straighten ur back when u meditate.  This is a good exercise.  
(12:18 AM) AEN: icic
(12:18 AM) AEN: yup
(12:19 AM) John: u get use to stilling on flat floor or with a cushion?
(12:20 AM) AEN: something like cushion but higher and slanted.. suited for meditation
(12:21 AM) AEN: and chanting
(12:21 AM) John: how long did ur teacher tell u to sit?
(12:22 AM) AEN: last time she mention those who have 'chuan fa' should have the habit to sit everyday at least 30 min
(12:22 AM) John: what is chuan fa?
(12:22 AM) John: to preach?
(12:22 AM) AEN: oh as in receive dharma transmission.. from teacher chen
(12:22 AM) AEN: no no
(12:22 AM) AEN: hahahaha
(12:23 AM) John: ??
(12:23 AM) John: meaning ur teacher chen dharma transmission require ppl to sit for half an hour of meditation?
(12:24 AM) AEN: there are certain dharmas in ren cheng tat is not to be discussed... one is a set of 4 dharmas that can be practised in 'xing, zhu, zuo, wuo', meaning walking, standing, sitting, and sleeping... its not wu wei fa, but you wei fa.. and some i heard has got to do with visualisation, sitting is anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing)
(12:24 AM) AEN: but i did not receive any of those dharma transmission yet
(12:24 AM) AEN: the other one is like those wu wei fa that teacher chen transmit and is usually given to public
(12:24 AM) AEN: nope
(12:24 AM) AEN: but just advised to la not like some kind of vows.. but those who practise it shld do sitting meditation loh
(12:25 AM) John: ic
(12:26 AM) John: sitting meditation is important, it will help u still ur mind and heighten ur awareness
(12:26 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:29 AM) John: u must learn to still ur body first, the experience similar to the lower half of ur body must be extend to the whole body.
(12:29 AM) AEN: oic
(12:29 AM) AEN: must i reach some sort of jhana experience first for tat to happen?
(12:29 AM) John: it is often easier the first time...hehe....
(12:30 AM) AEN: how come
(12:30 AM) AEN: hahaha
(12:30 AM) John: then when u are able to still ur body, just motionless and when u sit, its is stable and still
(12:30 AM) John: it then comes to the mind
(12:31 AM) John: to watch the breath and settle ur thoughts
(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:31 AM) John: practice this until u can calm ur thoughts
(12:32 AM) John: through ur breath  
(12:32 AM) AEN: icic
(12:32 AM) John: once u r able to still ur thoughts or settle ur thoughts, then start to be aware....
(12:33 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:33 AM) John: until u feel the full presence of ur sensation, taste, touch..etc
(12:34 AM) John: sense them....
(12:34 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:34 AM) John: if possible contemplate on what buddhagosha said
(12:34 AM) AEN: oic
(12:35 AM) John: only the thinking, no thinker
(12:35 AM) John: the taste, no one tasting
(12:35 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:35 AM) John: till directness arises
(12:35 AM) AEN: oic
(12:35 AM) John: keep practicing this if possible in the morning...heehe or afternoon...not night.  
(12:35 AM) AEN: why not night
(12:35 AM) AEN: cos tired?
(12:36 AM) John: no good
(12:36 AM) John: only in the morning or evening
(12:36 AM) AEN: y not night.. lol
(12:36 AM) John: till u r able to control ur thought pattern
(12:36 AM) AEN: oic
(12:37 AM) John: at night just relax and do what u do...lol...irc...msn...forum.  
(12:37 AM) AEN: lol ok
(12:37 AM) John: during waking state, practice mindfulness
(12:38 AM) John: when ur feet touches the floor...
(12:38 AM) John: when ur hand touches anything...spend time...just like what eckhart tolle said in the power of now and a new earth.
(12:38 AM) John: when u swallow ur saliva.  
(12:39 AM) AEN: oic...
(12:39 AM) John: feel the sensation completely...
(12:39 AM) AEN: icic
(12:39 AM) John: then relax and don't practice that at night..until morning....till one day u tell me u know what has thought pattern got to do with calmness
(12:40 AM) AEN: oic
(12:40 AM) John: and how awareness is being misidentified with self and what are the relationships
(12:40 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:40 AM) John: what is bliss and clarity
(12:40 AM) AEN: oic
(12:41 AM) John: then when u experience no-self and our pristine awareness and clearly know what is awareness, tell me why is it everything...
(12:41 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:42 AM) John: challenging and going beyond thought can be a painful experience if not practiced correctly.  
(12:43 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:43 AM) John: because we have been using thoughts and it will come  
(12:43 AM) John: so do not under estimate it
(12:43 AM) AEN: oic
(12:44 AM) John: exercise more....
(12:44 AM) John: a healthy body for a healthy mind
(12:44 AM) AEN: icic
(12:44 AM) John: it will help ur practice
(12:44 AM) AEN: icic
(12:45 AM) John: when u r able to experience directly, tell me about it
(12:45 AM) John: when u r able to settle ur thoughts, tell me also...
(12:45 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:46 AM) John: then go to ur centre and engage in activities to keep in touch with dharma.  
(12:46 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:46 AM) AEN: ok
(12:48 AM) John: yeah...in meditation, content of the mind is not important, it is the quality of the mind
(12:48 AM) John: peace, bliss, tranquillity, calmness are not content
(12:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:49 AM) John: even in deep relaxation, u do not want to chat in ur mind, u simply let go
(12:49 AM) AEN: oic
(12:49 AM) AEN: ya
(12:50 AM) John: the content and meaning isn't important at all
(12:50 AM) John: u don't have to understand anything
(12:50 AM) John: nothing to understand at all.
(12:50 AM) John: so don't worry
(12:50 AM) John: just the sensation
(12:50 AM) John: the raw sensation
(12:50 AM) AEN: oic
(12:51 AM) John: but for start, u will contemplate
(12:51 AM) John: what is no-self
(12:51 AM) John: what is directness
(12:51 AM) John: what are words
(12:51 AM) AEN: before meditation?
(12:51 AM) AEN: oic
(12:51 AM) John: during meditation, u will sure ask one...
(12:52 AM) AEN: oh ok
(12:52 AM) AEN: icic
(12:52 AM) John: it is okie...but start with the calming the mind first
(12:52 AM) John: before ur contemplate
(12:52 AM) John: when u contemplate, u can also be mindful
(12:52 AM) AEN: icic
(12:52 AM) John: the two can go hand in hand
(12:52 AM) John: it doesn't matter
(12:53 AM) John: when u experience directness, concepts and thoughts will be replaced with directness gradually
(12:53 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:53 AM) John: but u must precede with mindfulness of breath to settle the thoughts first  
(12:53 AM) John: to have mastery over thoughts
(12:54 AM) John: or the ability to settle thoughts through ur breath
(12:54 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:55 AM) John: when is ur exams?
(12:55 AM) AEN: like over 2 weeks from now
(12:55 AM) John: u better start studying...
(12:55 AM) John: lol
(12:55 AM) AEN: yea i know haha
(12:56 AM) AEN: ok gtg.. gd nite
(12:56 AM) John: nite


Session Start: Sunday, August 27, 2006

(12:12 PM) John: Read ur email about the ken wilber page 250.
(12:12 PM) AEN: ok wait
(12:13 PM) AEN: icic
(12:13 PM) John: fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness.
(12:13 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:14 PM) John: to date, ken wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description.  (Note by Soh: However, Ken Wilber's understanding is still more of Stage 4 nondual, not yet anatta and emptiness as John Tan later clarified)
(12:14 PM) John: it is from fulcrum 9-10
(12:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 PM) John: except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming and dreamless is what i told u should not be followed.
(12:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:15 PM) John: let's take longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do u think i am leading him?
(12:16 PM) AEN: emptienss?  
(12:16 PM) AEN: no-self and emptiness
(12:16 PM) AEN: lol
(12:16 PM) John: yes
(12:16 PM) John: so where was he when he first communicated with u?
(12:16 PM) AEN: i nterms of falcrum?  
(12:17 PM) John: yeah
(12:17 PM) AEN: falcrum 9-1?
(12:17 PM) John: yes
(12:17 PM) John: did he go through 7 and 8?
(12:17 PM) AEN: no
(12:18 PM) John: okie then how is one to experience fulcrum 9?  That is what i disagree. :)
(12:18 PM) John: in fact true enlightenment should only start at 9.
(12:18 PM) John: and a glimpse of our nature starts at 9.
(12:18 PM) AEN: oic
(12:19 PM) AEN: u mean he said otherwise?
(12:19 PM) John: 7 can be the result of mindfulness
(12:19 PM) AEN: which page is 7
(12:19 PM) John: page 7?
(12:19 PM) John: i mean fulcrum 7
(12:19 PM) AEN: oh ok found it
(12:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:20 PM) John: mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7.  That is the result of being mindful and non conceptual.
(12:20 PM) John: but our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of "I AMness".
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:21 PM) John: this "I AMness" is a natural progression when the karmic propensities is still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature.
(12:21 PM) AEN: icic
(12:21 PM) John: at that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self
(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:22 PM) John: why no doership and why no I.  Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy.
(12:23 PM) John: They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'.
(12:23 PM) John: and how to break this spell?
(12:23 PM) John: that is the question.
(12:23 PM) AEN: icic
(12:23 PM) John: the experience is there but there is no clarity, this is the problem.
(12:23 PM) AEN: oic
(12:24 PM) AEN: eh btw page 184 about falcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience?
(12:24 PM) John: so one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification.
(12:24 PM) AEN: 'u're on a nature walk.... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain'
(12:24 PM) AEN: icic
(12:24 PM) John: yes that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature.
(12:24 PM) AEN: oic
(12:25 PM) John: it is a stage
(12:25 PM) AEN: not 'i amness'?
(12:25 PM) John: yes..
(12:25 PM) John: means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness.
(12:25 PM) AEN: o hmm last time i tink maybe i experience falcrum 7
(12:25 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:25 PM) John: he must continue to practice
(12:25 PM) AEN: icic
(12:25 PM) John: yeah...
(12:26 PM) John: when u told me about the clarity about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real.
(12:26 PM) John: this is come and go.
(12:26 PM) John: and i told u to see, the scenery but no one there.   
(12:26 PM) AEN: icic
(12:26 PM) John: that is the vividness, the clarity...all these are the attributes of awareness
(12:27 PM) John: now i tell u to experience the calmness to gather strength
(12:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:27 PM) John: stillness of body and mind
(12:27 PM) John: this is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity
(12:27 PM) AEN: icic
(12:28 PM) John: so one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't start yet.
(12:28 PM) AEN: oic
(12:28 PM) John: there must be this intuitive understanding of "I AM" then it begins.
(12:29 PM) John: like eckhart tolle
(12:29 PM) AEN: icic
(12:29 PM) John: like longchen and ken wilber...all these ppl experience the 'Self'.
(12:29 PM) John: the 'Self' is a misunderstood version.
(12:30 PM) AEN: oic
(12:30 PM) John: When I told longchen first there is no I, no self yet there is Presence, he confused.
(12:30 PM) John: remember?
(12:30 PM) AEN: ya
(12:31 PM) John: then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorance of the source...this is the question he asked bob.
(12:31 PM) AEN: oic
(12:31 PM) John: remember?
(12:31 PM) AEN: not too sure
(12:31 PM) AEN: which post?
(12:31 PM) John: hmm....what is his site url>
(12:31 PM) John: heheeh
(12:31 PM) AEN: wait
(12:31 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com
(12:31 PM) John: u r the one that send me the post what.
(12:32 PM) John: kok ur head
(12:32 PM) John: lol
(12:32 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:32 PM) AEN: i mean around when?
(12:53 PM) John: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1118915725
(12:54 PM) John: ahaha....
(12:54 PM) John: me of Me. :)
(12:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:54 PM) John: wah...take so long to look for this post that u send me. :P
(12:55 PM) AEN: yea hahaha... thanks for looking
(12:55 PM) John:   Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am   
(12:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(12:56 PM) John: he was asking bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :)
(12:57 PM) AEN: oic
(12:57 PM) John: he doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects...:)
(12:57 PM) John: lol
(12:57 PM) AEN: haha why??
(12:57 PM) John: he said so what...
(12:57 PM) AEN: yea i mean y he wldnt dare
(12:58 PM) John: paiseh to ask lah...later say like all ppl in Buddhism forum not enlightened. :P
(12:58 PM) AEN: hahaha
(12:58 PM) AEN: icic
(12:59 PM) John: it is important that he breaks through that witness and see it in manifestation, that is exactly what ken wilber said. :)
(12:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(12:59 PM) John: in fact i borrow his books last week just because i saw this phrase. :P
(1:00 PM) AEN: oh.. icic
(1:00 PM) AEN: haha
(1:00 PM) John: otherwise no value.  
(1:00 PM) AEN: oic
(1:00 PM) John: because it is very common for one to sink back to the source.
(1:00 PM) John: but for his case, it is a bit unique...he dwell completely into manifestation.
(1:00 PM) AEN: icic...
(1:01 PM) John: and he experience witnessing consciousness in all three stages.
(1:01 PM) AEN: oic
(1:01 PM) John: waking, dreaming and dreamless
(1:01 PM) AEN: icic
(1:02 PM) John: but the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, i can't agree.  
(1:02 PM) John: i think it is not right and dangerous.
(1:02 PM) AEN: how come/
(1:02 PM) John: however i like his books because of his experience.
(1:02 PM) AEN: wait falcrum 8 is...?
(1:03 PM) AEN: falcrum 7 is dangerous? lol
(1:03 PM) John: because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation means there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage.
(1:03 PM) AEN: oic
(1:03 PM) John: next the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned.
(1:03 PM) John: that to me is not right.
(1:03 PM) John: and very dangerous.
(1:03 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:04 PM) John: a correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity and tranquility.
(1:04 PM) AEN: oic
(1:04 PM) John: this comes first then even one experience nothing about our nature is able to benefit from such fruition.
(1:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:05 PM) John: during death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress
(1:05 PM) AEN: icic
(1:05 PM) John: such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:06 PM) AEN: ward off evil as in
(1:06 PM) John: or serve as the base for it.
(1:06 PM) AEN: oic
(1:06 PM) John: yeah...when the mind is calm, there is lil power over some person.
(1:06 PM) John: it is difficult to penetrate such a mind.
(1:06 PM) AEN: o icic...
(1:06 PM) John: therefore that must be the base of practice first.
(1:07 PM) AEN: oic
(1:07 PM) John: only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage...and real qualified masters are needed.
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:08 PM) John: dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by ppl is dangerous.
(1:08 PM) John: and those masters are sure themselves unless they are really high achievers.
(1:08 PM) John: how many of them are truly so?
(1:08 PM) AEN: oic
(1:09 PM) John: therefore one should refrain from such practice.
(1:09 PM) AEN: oic
(1:10 PM) John: and teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind.
(1:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:10 PM) John: and at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right.
(1:10 PM) AEN: icic
(1:11 PM) John: lol...otherwise if nub ask then i start telling them this and that or twe asked then reply this and that...then they are misled.
(1:11 PM) AEN: oic hahah
(1:12 PM) John: rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm, it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation.
(1:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(1:13 PM) John: then get them aquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like.
(1:13 PM) John: that's all.
(1:13 PM) AEN: oic
(1:14 PM) John: the page 250 of what ken wilber described is exactly what longchen need now, he must stabilize this experience
(1:15 PM) John: and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern.
(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:15 PM) John: with this mastery, he is able to complete allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is.
(1:16 PM) John: now during night, sleep will definitely occur
(1:16 PM) John: why?
(1:16 PM) John: because the conditions are there.
(1:16 PM) John: the mind knows
(1:16 PM) AEN: icic
(1:16 PM) John: and is aware of it.
(1:16 PM) John: right?
(1:16 PM) AEN: 6ya
(1:17 PM) John: when the conditions are there, there is manifestation and that is itself the source.
(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:17 PM) John: when we din sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is
(1:18 PM) John: if we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this
(1:18 PM) John: one must observe the condition
(1:18 PM) AEN: oic
(1:19 PM) John: when we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition  
(1:19 PM) John: it is a form of subtle attachment
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:19 PM) John: and also not knowing emptiness
(1:19 PM) AEN: icic
(1:19 PM) John: an attachment to the self.
(1:19 PM) AEN: oic
(1:20 PM) John: natural awareness can be sustained but through another way.
(1:20 PM) John: that is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside
(1:20 PM) AEN: icic
(1:20 PM) John: only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it.
(1:20 PM) John: that is achievement
(1:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:22 PM) John: when u read ken wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't.
(1:22 PM) AEN: icic ok
(1:22 PM) John: when future u faced problem u must know what can solve ur problems
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic
(1:23 PM) John: it is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world.
(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:24 PM) John: then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment, that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :)
(1:24 PM) AEN: icic
(1:25 PM) John: for one that experience "I AM", one can still take another 20 years to experience what ken wilber said.
(1:25 PM) John: it is just a 'spell' that bond and it takes more than 20 yrs for him to break.
(1:25 PM) John: nothing changes
(1:25 PM) John: just a bond
(1:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:26 PM) AEN: hmm ask u arh, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages ken wilber mentioned in the next lifetime? lol
(1:26 PM) John: yeah
(1:27 PM) John: as far as i know...hehehe
(1:27 PM) AEN: haha
(1:27 PM) AEN: icic
(1:27 PM) John: but don't worry too much...coz the strength of the practice is latent deep inside...
(1:27 PM) AEN: oic
(1:29 PM) John: how is the channel now?
(1:30 PM) AEN: the buddhist channel? ok la but quite quiet.. still got some chatting but not much
(1:30 PM) AEN: and all the ops are gone
(1:30 PM) AEN: last time got like 10 ops now only left 2
(1:30 PM) John: lol
(1:30 PM) AEN: others all deregistered
(1:30 PM) AEN: 2 as in including me
(1:30 PM) John: msn better...
(1:30 PM) AEN: haha
(1:30 PM) AEN: ya
(1:30 PM) John: have u read patanjali yoga sutra b4?
(1:36 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
thats life - no chance to even go for the chanting .
AEN     says:
how come? wat happe
Leonard says:
last night had dinner ....
AEN     says:
oic..
Leonard says:
sometimes i feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided ... i am trying so hard....
(1:37 PM) John: yes...he can't.
(1:37 PM) AEN: icic
(1:38 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
i wonder how the buddha did it....
(1:38 PM) John: a misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :)
(1:39 PM) John: Buddha din do it, he allows natural manifestation
(1:40 PM) John: That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature.
(1:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:40 PM) AEN: do i say that to him?
(1:40 PM) John: yes
(1:40 PM) AEN: ok
(1:41 PM) John: time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work
(1:41 PM) John: :P
(1:42 PM) John: when we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected.  There is no escape.
(1:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:43 PM) John: However by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts.  
(1:43 PM) John: just the qualities
(1:43 PM) AEN: icic
(1:43 PM) John: there is no need to care about the content...
(1:43 PM) AEN: oic
(1:44 PM) John: if he is able to dwell into those qualites, the content will subsides
(1:44 PM) AEN: icic
(1:44 PM) John: because all along this is being overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems.  
(1:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(1:51 PM) AEN: oh i remember like many months back when i first bought the power of now, i ask thevoice about it he seem to like it alot, except tat he said it can be dangerous bcos it can make ppl impatient or something.. like want things to be done immediately
(1:51 PM) AEN: i tink tats weird hahaha
(1:51 PM) AEN: then i told him that eckhart tolle is talking about silence in the now
(1:52 PM) John: ic
(1:55 PM) AEN: ok gtg cya

Session Start: Thursday, August 31, 2006

(10:28 PM) John:    where is the part about what ur shi fu said?
(10:29 PM) AEN:    hi
(10:29 PM) AEN:    oh
(10:30 PM) AEN:    Initiated a file transfer
(10:29 PM) AEN:    second half of the mp3
(10:30 PM) John:    ic
(10:30 PM) John:    the body must learn how to be still first.
(10:30 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:31 PM) John:    like what i told u earlier, learn how to still the body completely as if u can do without it, then still the mind.
(10:31 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:31 PM) John:    having the ability to control thought patterns as what i told u.
(10:31 PM) John:    this is important.
(10:31 PM)    Transfer of "09 Track 9.mp3" is complete.
(10:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:35 PM) AEN:    Initiated a file transfer
(10:35 PM) AEN:    another one
(10:37 PM)    Transfer of "12 Track 12.mp3" is complete.
(10:37 PM) John:    what it said is okie but not to try as i told u only after u are able to still ur body and thoughts.  Although there is clarity if one isn't about to have mastery over thought patterns, he will suffer.  The key is to learn how to still ur body first. :)
(10:37 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:38 PM) John:    one should not go into certain form of practices if he isn't ready.  The condition must be right.
(10:38 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:39 PM) John:    ur shi fu is saying the effect
(10:39 PM) John:    the experience
(10:39 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:39 PM) John:    but the conditions of when one is ready is not mentioned.
(10:40 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:40 PM) John:    to know the problems associated when one isn't ready is equally critical.
(10:40 PM) John:    :)
(10:40 PM) AEN:    oic..

(10:45 PM) John:    the manifestation of every moment is really the nature itself.  So where and what is the problem?
(10:46 PM) AEN:    no problem?
(10:46 PM) John:    got problem
(10:46 PM) AEN:    the problem is grasping and illusion?
(10:47 PM) John:    it is identification of particularities of the temporal manifestation.
(10:47 PM) John:    as long as we identify, the problem will arise
(10:49 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:50 PM) John:    what is the difference between knowing and Presence?
(10:51 PM) AEN:    knowing conceptually?
(10:51 PM) AEN:    knowing is dualistic, presence is non-dual
(10:51 PM) John:    yes but what is presence like?
(10:52 PM) John:    when u know the clear knowingness and is clear about what is presence... the conditions for sustained no-self will arise.
(10:53 PM) AEN:    icic..