Conversation — 24 August 2006

John said, "Actually one should mentally let go of everything, then the clarity of presence is real strength. Letting go of all things is extremely important to create the calmness for Presence to surface. Otherwise, what one glimpses is just a moment of our true nature; there is no strength."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "I hope he can go through this depression... it is not easy for him to get beyond what he is suffering now. When everything isn't going right—relationship, business, family, and spirituality—it is almost unbearable. That is what I worry..."

AEN said, "I see. Worry for him?"

John said, "Yeah... I told you not to talk to him about anything the very first day and just lead him to rest... not even dharma... but just rest his mind. Have I been that serious before and told you not to tell anyone about dharma?"

AEN said, "Nope."

John said, "Just listen to him, be a good listener."

AEN said, "Okay."

John said, "If we practice, learn how to let go of everything mentally, even the Presence that we experienced, this is most important. More thorough than the nihilists. This is very important. When you sit and meditate, just learn how to let go completely of everything, until you experience unsurpassed calm and tranquility. Then be mindful. When you are out, be mindful of everything you sense."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When the presence is experienced, the letting go is even more crucial. When meditating, drop everything, including your Buddha nature. There is nothing to keep. This must be the attitude mentally, spiritually. First, let go completely of the body, feel like if anyone wants it, give it away... just let go of it... everything... this is to prepare you to experience the most subtle."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Because your teachers told you about being aware during all three stages, it is important that you are able to let go of everything, even the Presence."

AEN said, "What stages?"

John said, "So that you are able to experience deep sleep and what is meant by utter cessation of conditions... You must give up entirely yourself, even the presence, then you will be safe. Don't go for the dream and dreamless sleep; that is not right for most people. Go for deep sleep and rest, and practice the letting go and deep presence during the waking state. Otherwise, when the experience comes, I don't think you will be able to cope, just like your teachers."

AEN said, "By the way, what three stages?"

John said, "I mean the dream and dreamless. You must experience Presence in the waking state and practice the letting go of everything, then it is correct. The subsiding of everything totally. Then that is true practice. Not even a single stain of holding anything... let go. When you meditate, your body is as if no more... complete letting go. That is noble. Then practice mindfulness. The clarity that arises will have strength. When that clarity and presence is so total, your sleep will lessen tremendously, maybe to 2 hours, or 2-5 hours."

AEN said, "Wow."

John said, "Because there will be no tiredness."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But by that time, your practice of letting go completely and 'die' by submitting yourself to emptiness and DO (Dzogchen?) instead of presence, will let you overcome 'Self' completely. You can prevent from being like TheVoice or your teachers. Your teachers engage in activities that are very important. In fact, one way to get TheVoice out is to engage in activities."

AEN said, "I see. Isn't he engaging in activities?"

John said, "I mean helping others in dharma... But I think it is difficult for he himself is so confused."

AEN said, "I see. Be right back... Back. Hmm, actually I think my teachers do know about emptiness although they didn't teach a lot on that."

John said, "I know... Teacher Chen is already very high. But that stage is very difficult to overcome."

AEN said, "You mean 'presence'?"

John said, "Just learn how to let go of everything... Longchen... It is time for him to let go of everything... and experience the vivid presence."

AEN said, "I see... So Teacher Chen's stage is very difficult to overcome?"

John said, "It is to be dead to the Presence. Not Teacher Chen, your Lojong Zhabdrung Rinpoches... be dead to Presence."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Everyone must be dead to Presence."

AEN said, "I see. Why? But you said to let go of presence?"

John said, "Yes. Actually, you will understand what I meant when you start with letting go of your body so firm and steady during meditation. The calmness and tranquility will lead you forward to enhance your understanding of Presence."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When the practice is correct, everything will seem very smooth. But still, a bit of suffering is still necessary."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "You know who is Swami Rama?"

AEN said, "Nope... who is he?"

John said, "The one that can stop heart beats from pumping."

AEN said, "Wow! I didn't know. Oh, I know. When a person enters deep samadhi their heartbeat and breathing stop. Oh ya, anyway you said when you meditate you know you are sleeping because of sleeping symptoms and snoring etc. But will you know about that when you are meditating? Or does someone else tell you?"

John said, "Now... you must know one thing... Presence exists in all three stages. It is the memories that are not there. That is, in deep sleep, there is a very short period you lost memories and you can't remember. Actually, we rest very little in mind, only the body rests during sleep."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But one will not be able to notice it and experience Presence correctly without the ability to keep the body at total rest. The experience is different. First, work through the waking state and know what exactly presence is. Until it gathers strength, so strong that it creates the momentum to penetrate other states naturally. But it must come from a deep calm of letting go. Experience the subsiding of every moment."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But start with the body."

AEN said, "I see, but when one practises mindfulness of breathing, naturally one will let go of the body, isn't it?"

John said, "Then when your body is in complete rest, you will know. That depends. It must be a real deep letting go to experience the bliss and calm I tell you. Calm first. Bliss must come along with vividness and clarity, without thoughts. Then let it penetrate naturally."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When the Presence is felt and the willingness to let go of itself is experienced, you will understand what I mean. Then coupled with the resting of the body, you will be able to take on the challenges. Otherwise, you will suffer."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The practice is like becoming a perfect nihilist and realist at the same time. Your letting go must be more thorough than any nihilist. Your Presence must be more thorough than any realist, through the right understanding of emptiness. But when you are practicing, it might not be so easy to go through."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Because we engaged in so much intellectual activities and do not really practice impermanence and emptiness. Though we experience Presence, the root is not strong and we are unable to contain the experience."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Being real to impermanence is neither intellectual nor conceptual; it is total disengaging mentally... it must result in deep and serene calmness. This is a very important factor for true Presence to surface."

AEN said, "I see. Actually, vipassana and samatha are practised at the same time, isn't it?"

John said, "Nope."

AEN said, "I see. But by practising mindfulness, one will become calmer?"

John said, "Concentration can come first and lead to insight later, and vice versa. But both must come eventually."

AEN said, "I see. Can insight come before concentration?"

John said, "There can be great intensity of clarity and presence and understanding our Buddha's nature."

AEN said, "Do you think it's necessary to go through 4 jhanas?"

John said, "But suffering will still exist. That is because of us not being able to let go... we focus too much on the luminosity and claim only in words about the emptiness nature. The strength that must result from disbanding and letting go is not experienced. That will cause suffering."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "This is like the case of TheVoice. A certain aspect of luminosity is experienced but there is no strength, and without good karmic conditions, he will not be able to overcome it that easily."

AEN said, "I see. You mentioned before he is seeking to 'recapture' the experience?"

John said, "Yes. Your center might have the tendency of over-emphasizing the luminosity aspect unknowingly... though emptiness is taught. When emphasis is placed on the highest aspect, it can turn negative."

AEN said, "I see... Hmm, you came to my center dharma talk before?"

John said, "Self-spontaneity."

AEN said, "I see. Why will it turn negative?"

John said, "Because identification and attachment are very subtle; we are too consumed about the greatness of our Buddha's nature. I always tell you it is not that great."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Ken Wilber said he took 30 years to come to his experience."

AEN said, "Is that so?"

John said, "And it normally takes at least that long to understand."

AEN said, "I see. When he started?"

John said, "30 years ago..."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Sometimes I think that he is overjoyed. Placed too much emphasis on the Presence... non-Buddhist. Hinduism..."

AEN said, "I see. But how come his level of understanding, I thought you said is very high?"

John said, "Yeah... I do not know what is beyond that. As a lay practitioner, I do not know what is beyond that. It is the degree of letting go; I do not know how much strength. In terms of anatta and the experience of the luminous clarity, I have no doubt. That is very clear. (comments: as John later clarifies, Ken Wilber is more of substantialist non-dualism than anatta)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Not just an I AMness, means clarity of no-self. And penetration into the dream and dreamless states... but since his is tantric practice, I do not want to make much comments."

AEN said, "His is Dzogchen practise. Why won't you make comments?"

John said, "All sorts of practices."

AEN said, "I see. Actually Dzogchen also places a lot of importance on 'presence', isn't it?"

John said, "Yes."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But he practiced under many enlightened masters."

AEN said, "I see. Yeah, I read his website; he taught with a Rinpoche in New York before."

John said, "Eh? What is the URL?"

AEN said, "Ken Wilber News Show 82 Page 9. He and Traleg Rinpoche will be teaching on the practise of 'lojong,' some sort of Vajrayana practise. And this one is weird: Ken Wilber Blog Show 110. His muscles turned purple?"

John said, "I see... Hope one is not engaged in materialistic pursue."

AEN said, "I see. But since his realisation is quite high, he will not be too attached to materialism, isn't it?"

John said, "How do we know? Practice hard... understand emptiness and let go and experience Presence. The bliss will come. Then you will know what is most important. He hurt pretty badly."

AEN said, "I see. You mean his bruise?"

John said, "Yeah."

AEN said, "Yeah."

John said, "He thought he was going to die. Anyway... sustainment of presence can be due to a natural momentum or a very subtle and strong attachment of the 'Self'."

AEN said, "Sustainment of presence? I see."

John said, "That is, in a dreamless state, it can be due to the unwillingness of letting go as a result of subtle attachment. Most likely the case. It is not natural momentum."

AEN said, "I see. You have experienced that in the past?"

John said, "The letting go into deep sleep is very important and let it turn in naturally. Even now."

AEN said, "Huh? How come?"

John said, "It is not easy to differentiate... one has to be utterly truthful. But I have practiced the letting go a few years back. And it helps me to see more clearly instead of being lured into the idea of thinking I have achieved great height of attainment."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Because our mind is so clear, our sleep actually shortens to very few hours, and to enter into deep sleep from that mental alertness isn't easy. We would rather meditate. Then we thought that is a natural state."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "I tried it about 1.5 years back and noticed the difference. The body must be completely at rest... that is a pre-condition. For the body to be completely at rest, you must learn to let go completely... even to Presence."

AEN said, "I see. But presence is a natural state, right?"

John said, "But the letting go of the body is already a great achievement... the strength of calmness and letting go somehow lets you overcome the attachment to Presence. Presence has to be a natural state; it might not be a natural state."

AEN said, "Huh?"

John said, "The experience of true presence has to be as natural as possible; it is a reflection of our purity due to the loosening of our inner bond. However, for one that has experienced presence, he is able to feel the Presence in and out like a deliberate attempt. This is because he is able to go beyond thoughts and concepts, but the attachment is still working behind him. It depends what energy is stronger. So we must practice letting go through correct understanding of impermanence and emptiness. It is not easy to let go... the mind will tend to identify. And the identification will make us cling. The state of Presence can become an object of experience for a practitioner to cling, and that becomes a problem."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "You must start practicing... to refine your understanding."

AEN said, "But clinging and identification to any states will prevent one from experiencing presence, isn't it? Okay."

John said, "Yes, but because Presence pops in and out, it is difficult to notice. Meaning it used to be thoughts, but now it is presence. There is nothing wrong with the experience of presence, but it is the attachment. It is the subtle attachment that prevents us from deep sleep because we are unwilling to let go of that experience."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Though one will not feel anything wrong or it does not disturb one much, it is not a form of achievement as described. It is a retrogression instead."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When one is able to let go and let everything subside, even the loss of consciousness, it is a more profound state instead. It has to be a natural momentum that is being built up."

AEN said, "I see. Is there presence in nirvana?"

John said, "Until the propensities are gone, the letting go is complete, it is illuminated everywhere. Total presence is nirvana... at least to me. To me, there is no further, if the letting go is thorough. Then the Presence is complete."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "There is a great difference between subtle attachment where we unwillingly go into sleep and letting the conditions take place without self, just empty phenomenon taking its own course."

AEN said, "I see."

Conversation — 26 August 2006

John said, "About Mahamudra, some say it's the 4th turning. But it is the experience of total Presence."

AEN said, "Meaning? You mean 4th turning equals total presence? What's the difference between 3rd and 4th?"

John said, "The teaching is to directly experience the Buddha's nature. Like Zen to me."

AEN said, "I see... but isn't it the same as 3rd which is also about Buddha nature?"

John said, "Yeah. So I don't see a difference. Wonder why some call it 4th turning. To me, there is no real mark of distinction."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But because it is a Tibetan practice, I do not really know if there is any hidden teaching. From the books I have read, it is just the direct experience of our Pristine Awareness. I do not advise people to go into experiencing of Buddha's nature directly."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "One should always start from developing the qualities of the mind..."

AEN said, "I see... paramitas?"

John said, "To experience the deep calmness resulting from settling our thoughts, still our mind. Then wisdom."

AEN said, "I see. Is stilling our mind considered shamatha?"

John said, "Not exactly, but it can be by any practices as long as it leads us to the experience of this calmness. Mindfulness of breath, or mindfulness itself, or chanting. One must experience this calmness first. Because it is the 'ground' that strengthens other experiences."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "However, some people are vested with the conditions to experience the end-result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience. Like experiencing our Buddha nature directly. Then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understanding of this experience. Like those experiencing 'I AMness'. It is a mistaken identity. Due to our karmic propensities, they cannot discern the nature of that experience. However, after many years of contemplation, they are able to have deeper glimpses of it. And the next stage is the experience of no-self to further refine their understanding. The mind then is experienced as a crystal clear mirror; there is no-I. Then emptiness must step in to know that there is no mirror in the first place reflecting anything. The manifestation is the arising, is the Buddha's nature. There is no mirror bright atall; the arising is the Buddha nature itself. Samsara is Nirvana. Even with this illumination, one is not able to overcome the defilement, our karmic propensities. Because they do not start from the perfection of the calmness, there is no strength. They are unable to 'control' their thoughts (meaning settle their thoughts)."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When we reached a state of deep calmness and we turn it into mindfulness, then there is the experience of blissfulness, clarity and vitality, and wisdom. Stilling the body and mind only results in a deep and stable calmness that gathers strength. For the other quality to arise, it needs the direct experience and intuitive wisdom. That is why I told Longchen to eliminate the presence and start experiencing the deep calmness by letting go. The letting go is to settle the mind till he is about to have mastery over the thought patterns. This is very important for progress."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Direct perception is crucial, because Buddha nature cannot be understood conceptually. But without the ground of deep calmness, there is no strength. And one might suffer because we do not know how to deal with these experiences. I'll go eat first."

AEN said, "I see. Okay."

John said, ""Generally, as in the Theravadin Buddhist tradition and the Samkhya yogic schools, whenever you enter this state of unmanifest absorption, it burns away certain lingering afflictions and sources of ignorance. Each time you fully enter this state, more of these afflictions are burned away, and after a certain number and type of these entrances - often four - you have burned away everything there is to..." Who said this?"

AEN said, "Ken Wilber. A Brief History of Everything."

John said, "Not bad. About the emptiness he is talking about, is the no-self. That is manifestation itself."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "You got the book 'A Brief History of Everything'?"

AEN said, "Borrowed from library. When a paperback version of it releases months from now, maybe I'll buy it. And also Integral Spirituality... a new book by Wilber going to release in October."

John said, "Yeah... I think it is okay to keep a book of Ken Wilber. I like his description of the no-self. Just do not know the strength. When there is the experience of everything as pristine awareness, there cannot be a 'self' or any sense of 'I'. To have strength of this experience, the deep sense of calmness from complete stillness of the body as well as the mind are the conditions. The problem is if we did not go through the proper stage, we will base on or unknowingly exercise our intellect to capture that experience. It is the quality of the mind that is important, not the content of it. The quality must come from just the sensing, nothing about intellect."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "After Longchen has more experience of the no-self nature of the pristine awareness, the next step is to gather strength through experiencing that sense of calmness and tranquillity and then fuse his anatta experience into this tranquil calm. Then experience the total dissolving of the consciousness of Presence into deep sleep. Dare to face the great death and be nothing."

AEN said, "I see... What great death?"

John said, "Merge completely into the place as if we were never there before... love and fuse completely into nothingness... don't worry about anything... total wakefulness when waking and complete death in deep sleep. This is true presence according to conditions. The mental states of sleep must emerge before we become no one there. Until this is perfectly clear... means you can go into deep sleep by controlling the thought pattern (slowing down our thoughts)... we will enter into sleep. That is why I said when someone says that they are so aware that it brings them beyond the night, it is not true experience. Because there is no control of thoughts at all. This is due to the lack of practice or overlooking the practice of deep calmness. That provides the ground of controlling thoughts pattern. This is very, very important. In fact, that is always the base of practice. That is why the simplest way of keeping the mind still is taught to all levels. Chanting first even if one does not have the capacity of understanding anything. Any form of practice must start from there... that is the best. Then progress slowly."

AEN said, "Any form of practise must start from chanting?"

John said, "However, if the capacity and conditions are already there and so close to experiencing the more profound experience of our pristine awareness, we have to lead one to the experience first then later slowly lead him into the experience of the tranquil calmness to stabilize the experience."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "No... any form of experience must lead one to experience the tranquil calm; it comes from keeping the mind still. But stilling of mind comes easier from stilling the body first."

AEN said, "Oh, I see. How does one still the body?"

John said, "But this state will not experience the luminous clarity of our pristine awareness."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The posture is very important. And to watch our breath is best to me."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Mindfulness has the effect of luminosity and calmness. An ingenious way towards enlightenment."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But to come to the understanding of everything as awareness like the experience of Ken Wilber requires deep yuan."

AEN said, "I see. Why does it puzzle you? What kind of deep yuan? Yuan with what?"

John said, "Because I also realised that even when one is deep into the practice of mindfulness, one need not experience our pristine awareness."

AEN said, "I see. Yeah, and some people who never cultivated anything can become enlightened after hearing some sutra verse."

John said, "Or see that our pristine awareness is everything and there is really nothing else. It is the only reality. There is absolutely no one in between."

AEN said, "I see. When Chuang Tzu said Tao is everywhere, is his understanding different?"

John said, "Hmm... a little different. There is another experience when no-self is experienced... that is the vitality aspect. That is the experience of life-giver presence everywhere. That connects us to everything."

AEN said, "I see. Like Casino King like that? Then Chuang Tzu is something like that also?"

John said, "When we experience anatta to a very deep state, luminosity and vitality through emptiness nature is experienced as one."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Zhuangzi is not keen in expressing luminosity aspect but rather how the Tao is expressed in its profundity."

AEN said, "Huh? Oh, but last time you said Chuang Tzu emphasized on 'non-doing until luminosity is clear'?"

John said, "I do not like to talk about 'I AM'. But 'I AM' is a very important state. However, I talk about no-self and emptiness and our pristine awareness... Most of the time the happening, nothing about the source... And the spontaneous arising later as the expression of luminosity and vitality. But never the 'self' or 'I' or anything."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Only for the explanation we spoke of the 'Self' when comparing to the Tathagatagarbha sutra and Vedanta teachings. Similarly Tao Te Ching is also the same... Just the expression of Tao. The Self-So. The naturalness. The non-action. The depth. Never the who or where or what. This is how Lao Tzu expressed it... just the way."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Lao-Tzu never talked about self-realization. Only Taoists in the later years, when they got affected by Buddhism, seeing our nature to equate it with Tao."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "However, for one that already attained, one can speak from the Tao level penetrating heaven, human, and earth. There is no difference."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Meditative posture is really important to still the body. When we are young, we should keep this posture and use it to help keep our thoughts. You must experience the entire body as no more there, no more a hindrance, and completely still, just like the time you lost the sense of your hands. Except that it is your entire body this time."

AEN said, "I see. Lost the sense of my hands?"

John said, "Your lower half of your body... something like that... when you told me. Forgotten?"

AEN said, "Oh, yeah. Not hand... lower half of body. But only for a short while. Then meditation time was over."

John said, "Yeah, I know... how can it be for long? You think you are me?"

AEN said, "I think if I continued the whole body would become like that. Oh, it was over not because I couldn't sustain but because the meditation session was over."

John said, "You must learn how to keep your mind in deep calmness even if luminosity didn't arise; the calmness is important... it is a form of stillness. Our entire life is about this thought pattern... watch it. Until complete stillness, then we can experience the clarity of luminosity and no-self. Even if one is having experience of our nature, without the strength, it is useless. A person that can keep his mind in chanting is even better. At least that helps him during death."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "She must gather strength in stilling the mind and experience the deep tranquil calm and later fuse the experience of Presence into it."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "She will not be able to understand the dreamless sleep state. She will suffer from the Deep Presence because it is still using intellect to keep the Presence. The experience of Presence is true experience but it can only be stabilized from the experience of stilling the mind."

AEN said, "I see. But she said usually she doesn't have that kind of thoughts and could remain in a thoughtless state for a very long time... and seldom has that kind of situation."

John said, "When people say stilling, it is not true stilling... it is the suspension of thoughts and conceptualization during waking state when experiencing Presence. This is not the tranquil calm I am talking about. It is a state where we have a sort of mastery of thoughts. Remember this."

AEN said, "Okay."

John said, "You know about delta wave, right?"

AEN said, "Brain waves?"

John said, "Yeah. The deep sleep phase."

AEN said, "Buddhism Sgforums Thread Display 147756. The image is no more. I see."

John said, "That is directly related to thought pattern. Image no more is different... though there is no images... Imagelessness is related to the deep Presence."

AEN said, "No, I mean the website picture is gone. I see."

John said, "I see."

AEN said, "Hmm, so during sleep one must eliminate presence?"

John said, "No... Presence cannot be eliminated."

AEN said, "I see. Okay."

John said, "It is just a way to tell someone to rid the attachment. When the mind is still clouded, the alertness is gone. But the wakefulness is not the sort of wakefulness that we think. Sleep is the experience of absence. Nothingness as an object. Means awareness experiencing 'nothingness' as an object."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When conditions of senses are too subtle and the thought pattern comes to a rest... What is the thought pattern? Actually, it is a sense of 'tense'."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "How many hours does your Teacher Chen meditate a day? In one go?"

AEN said, "I'm not sure... I think I remembered wrongly, maybe not 6 hours... but I know a lot. Maybe it is 6 hours... I think I heard that from my mom but don't know whether I got it remembered wrongly or she said wrongly. Because he is no longer working. Now he lives in his dharma center."

John said, "Wow, I see. 6 hours a day or one sitting?"

AEN said, "Erm, one sitting... maybe not. I mean everyday. Maybe he splits it into few sessions."

John said, "I see. Otherwise, that is quite long. When I meditate, I will do a yogic posture to straighten my back first. Quite a difficult posture... not suitable for you."

AEN said, "Huh, how? I see. What kind of yogic posture?"

John said, "It is left hand pulling the big toe of my right leg and right hand pulling the big toe of my left leg from behind my back in full lotus posture."

AEN said, "Wow! First part okay, second part don't know how to do."

John said, "Then I raise my head and breathe and slowly release it and relax into mindfulness of breath first."

AEN said, "I see. Where did you learn that from? Actually I can do it, quite easy if in full lotus posture. If not, impossible. Just now I tried in non-full lotus, like normal seating, and it felt like my hand was breaking."

John said, "Huh... you can do it? Sit in full lotus posture first. Then cross both your arms from behind. From behind."

AEN said, "I see. Yeah, I know. But I guess it only works for full lotus seaters like me... many people can't even do full lotus. Actually, no need... half lotus can do it."

John said, "Then left hand grab your left leg big toe. Then right hand grab your right leg big toe. You know what I mean or not? Because you sit in full lotus posture, your left leg is at your right side."

AEN said, "Then right hand grab your right leg big toe --> sorry, you typed wrongly? Right hand grab what? Oh, okay okay."

John said, "Right hand grab your right leg big toe from behind. Then slot your left hand from behind your back and grab your left leg big toe."

AEN said, "Okay... doable."

John said, "Then pull the two big toes and lift your head. And breathe deeply... inhale and exhale 10 times."

AEN said, "Okay."

John said, "Then relax and go into half lotus posture and still your back and meditate... relax and feel the breath and heart beats."

AEN said, "I see. Half lotus? Can full lotus?"

John said, "Can."

AEN said, "Okay. You sit half or full lotus?"

John said, "You meditate in full lotus posture?"

AEN said, "Yeah."

John said, "I sit in half lotus posture. Straighten your back when you meditate. This is a good exercise."

AEN said, "I see. Yup."

John said, "Do you get used to sitting on a flat floor or with a cushion?"

AEN said, "Something like a cushion but higher and slanted... suited for meditation and chanting."

John said, "How long did your teacher tell you to sit?"

AEN said, "Last time she mentioned those who have 'chuan fa' should have the habit to sit everyday at least 30 minutes."

John said, "What is chuan fa? To preach?"

AEN said, "Oh, as in receive dharma transmission... from Teacher Chen. No, no."

John said, "Meaning your Teacher Chen's dharma transmission requires people to sit for half an hour of meditation?"

AEN said, "There are certain dharmas in Ren Cheng that are not to be discussed... one is a set of 4 dharmas that can be practised in 'xing, zhu, zuo, wo', meaning walking, standing, sitting, and sleeping... it's not wu wei fa, but you wei fa... and some I heard have got to do with visualisation; sitting is anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing). But I did not receive any of those dharma transmissions yet. The other one is like those wu wei fa that Teacher Chen transmits and is usually given to public. Nope, but just advised to, not like some kind of vows... but those who practise it should do sitting meditation."

John said, "I see. Sitting meditation is important; it will help you still your mind and heighten your awareness."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "You must learn to still your body first; the experience similar to the lower half of your body must be extended to the whole body. It is often easier the first time..."

AEN said, "I see. Must I reach some sort of jhana experience first for that to happen? How come?"

John said, "Then when you are able to still your body, just motionless, and when you sit, it is stable and still. It then comes to the mind to watch the breath and settle your thoughts. Practice this until you can calm your thoughts through your breath. Once you are able to still your thoughts or settle your thoughts, then start to be aware... until you feel the full presence of your sensation, taste, touch, etc. Sense them..."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "If possible, contemplate on what Buddhaghosa said. Only the thinking, no thinker. The taste, no one tasting. Till directness arises. Keep practicing this if possible in the morning or afternoon... not night."

AEN said, "I see. Why not night? Because tired?"

John said, "No good. Only in the morning or evening. Till you are able to control your thought pattern."

AEN said, "Why not night? I see."

John said, "At night just relax and do what you do... IRC... MSN... forum. During waking state, practice mindfulness. When your feet touch the floor... When your hand touches anything... spend time... just like what Eckhart Tolle said in The Power of Now and A New Earth. When you swallow your saliva. Feel the sensation completely."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Then relax and don't practice that at night... until morning... till one day you tell me you know what thought patterns have got to do with calmness, and how awareness is being misidentified with self and what are the relationships. What is bliss and clarity. Then when you experience no-self and our pristine awareness and clearly know what is awareness, tell me why is it everything..."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Challenging and going beyond thought can be a painful experience if not practiced correctly. Because we have been using thoughts and they will come, so do not underestimate it. Exercise more... a healthy body for a healthy mind. It will help your practice."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When you are able to experience directly, tell me about it. When you are able to settle your thoughts, tell me also."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Then go to your centre and engage in activities to keep in touch with dharma."

AEN said, "I see. Okay."

John said, "Yeah... in meditation, content of the mind is not important; it is the quality of the mind. Peace, bliss, tranquillity, calmness are not content."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Even in deep relaxation, you do not want to chat in your mind; you simply let go. The content and meaning isn't important at all. You don't have to understand anything. Nothing to understand at all. So don't worry. Just the sensation. The raw sensation."

AEN said, "I see. Yeah."

John said, "But for a start, you will contemplate what is no-self, what is directness, what are words."

AEN said, "I see. Before meditation?"

John said, "During meditation, you will surely ask. It is okay... but start with calming the mind first, before you contemplate. When you contemplate, you can also be mindful. The two can go hand in hand. It doesn't matter. When you experience directness, concepts and thoughts will be replaced with directness gradually. But you must precede with mindfulness of breath to settle the thoughts first, to have mastery over thoughts, or the ability to settle thoughts through your breath."

AEN said, "Oh, okay. I see."

John said, "When is your exams?"

AEN said, "Like over 2 weeks from now."

John said, "You better start studying."

AEN said, "Yeah, I know. Okay, got to go... good night."

John said, "Night."

Conversation — 27 August 2006

John said, "Read your email about the Ken Wilber page 250."

AEN said, "Okay, wait. I see."

John said, "Fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self and beginning to understand emptiness as it is, but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness. To date, Ken Wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description. (Note by Soh: However, Ken Wilber's understanding is still more of Stage 4 nondual, not yet anatta and emptiness as John Tan later clarified). It is from fulcrum 9-10."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming, and dreamless is what I told you should not be followed."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Let's take Longchen for example. From his understanding and my description to him, where do you think I am leading him?"

AEN said, "Emptiness? No-self and emptiness."

John said, "Yes. So where was he when he first communicated with you?"

AEN said, "In terms of fulcrum?"

John said, "Yeah."

AEN said, "Fulcrum 9-10?"

John said, "Yes. Did he go through 7 and 8?"

AEN said, "No."

John said, "Okay, then how is one to experience fulcrum 9? That is what I disagree. In fact, true enlightenment should only start at 9. And a glimpse of our nature starts at 9."

AEN said, "I see. You mean he said otherwise?"

John said, "7 can be the result of mindfulness."

AEN said, "Which page is 7?"

John said, "Page 7? I mean fulcrum 7."

AEN said, "Oh, okay, found it. I see."

John said, "Mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7. That is the result of being mindful and non-conceptual. But our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of 'I AMness'."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "This 'I AMness' is a natural progression when the karmic propensities are still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature. At that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self. Why no doership and why no I. Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy. They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'. And how to break this spell? That is the question. The experience is there but there is no clarity; this is the problem."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "So one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification."

AEN said, "I see. Eh, by the way, page 184 about fulcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience? 'You're on a nature walk... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain.'"

John said, "Yes, that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature."

AEN said, "I see. Not 'I AMness'?"

John said, "Yes... means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness. He must continue to practice."

AEN said, "Oh, hmm, last time I think maybe I experienced fulcrum 7. I see."

John said, "Yeah... When you told me about the clarity, about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real. This is come and go. And I told you to see the scenery but no one there. That is the vividness, the clarity... all these are the attributes of awareness. Now I tell you to experience the calmness to gather strength. Stillness of body and mind. This is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "So one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't started yet. There must be this intuitive understanding of 'I AM' then it begins. Like Eckhart Tolle. Like Longchen and Ken Wilber... all these people experience the 'Self'. The 'Self' is a misunderstood version. When I told Longchen first there is no I, no self, yet there is Presence, he was confused. Remember?"

AEN said, "Yeah."

John said, "Then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorant of the source... this is the question he asked Bob. Remember?"

AEN said, "Not too sure. Which post?"

John said, "Hmm... what is his site URL? You are the one that sent me the post. Knock your head."

AEN said, "Wait. Simpo Proboards20. I mean around when?"

John said, "Simpo Proboards20 Insight Board Thread 1118915725. Me of Me. :) Wow... took so long to look for this post that you sent me. :P"

AEN said, "Yeah, thanks for looking."

John said, "Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am. He was asking Bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "He doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects... :) He said so."

AEN said, "I see. Yeah, I mean why he wouldn't dare?"

John said, "Shy to ask... later they say like all people in Buddhism forum are not enlightened. :P"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "It is important that he breaks through that witness and sees it in manifestation; that is exactly what Ken Wilber said. :) In fact, I borrowed his books last week just because I saw this phrase. :P Otherwise no value. Because it is very common for one to sink back to the source. But for his case, it is a bit unique... he dwells completely into manifestation. And he experiences witnessing consciousness in all three stages: waking, dreaming, and dreamless."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, I can't agree. I think it is not right and dangerous."

AEN said, "How come? Wait, fulcrum 8 is...? Fulcrum 7 is dangerous?"

John said, "Because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation, means there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage. Next, the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned. That to me is not right and very dangerous."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "A correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity, and tranquility. This comes first, then even one experiencing nothing about our nature is able to benefit from such fruition. During death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress. Such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above, or serves as the base for it."

AEN said, "I see. Ward off evil as in?"

John said, "Yeah... when the mind is calm, there is little power over some person. It is difficult to penetrate such a mind. Therefore that must be the base of practice first."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage... and real qualified masters are needed. Dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by people is dangerous. And those masters are not sure themselves unless they are really high achievers. How many of them are truly so? Therefore one should refrain from such practice."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "And teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind. And at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right. Otherwise if a newbie asks then I start telling them this and that, or if TWE asked then reply this and that... then they are misled."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm; it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation. Then get them acquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like. That's all."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The page 250 of what Ken Wilber described is exactly what Longchen needs now; he must stabilize this experience and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern. With this mastery, he is able to completely allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is. Now during night, sleep will definitely occur. Why? Because the conditions are there. The mind knows and is aware of it. Right?"

AEN said, "Yeah."

John said, "When the conditions are there, there is manifestation, and that is itself the source. When we don't sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is. If we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this. One must observe the condition. When we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition. It is a form of subtle attachment, and also not knowing emptiness. An attachment to the self."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Natural awareness can be sustained but through another way. That is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside. Only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it. That is achievement."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When you read Ken Wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't. When in the future you face problems, you must know what can solve your problems. It is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world. Then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment; that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "For one that experiences 'I AM', one can still take another 20 years to experience what Ken Wilber said. It is just a 'spell' that bonds, and it takes more than 20 years for him to break. Nothing changes, just a bond."

AEN said, "I see. Hmm, ask you, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages Ken Wilber mentioned in the next lifetime?"

John said, "Yeah. As far as I know. But don't worry too much... because the strength of the practice is latent deep inside..."

AEN said, "I see. The Buddhist channel? Okay, but quite quiet... still got some chatting but not much. And all the ops are gone. Last time there were like 10 ops, now only 2 left, others all deregistered. 2 as in including me."

John said, "MSN is better."

AEN said, "Yeah. Leonard says: 'That's life - no chance to even go for the chanting.' I said: 'How come? What happened?' Leonard says: 'Last night had dinner...' I said: 'I see...' Leonard says: 'Sometimes I feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided... I am trying so hard...'"

John said, "Yes... he can't."

AEN said, "I see. Leonard says: 'I wonder how the Buddha did it...'"

John said, "A misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :) Buddha didn't do it; he allowed natural manifestation. That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature."

AEN said, "I see. Do I say that to him?"

John said, "Yes. Time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work. :P When we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected. There is no escape. However, by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts. Just the qualities. There is no need to care about the content... If he is able to dwell into those qualities, the content will subside. Because all along this has been overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems."

AEN said, "I see. Oh, I remember like many months back when I first bought The Power of Now, I asked TheVoice about it. He seemed to like it a lot, except that he said it can be dangerous because it can make people impatient or something... like want things to be done immediately. I think that's weird. Then I told him that Eckhart Tolle is talking about silence in the now."

John said, "I see."

AEN said, "Okay, got to go, cya."

Conversation — 31 August 2006

John said, "Where is the part about what your Sifu said?"

AEN said, "Hi. Oh. Initiated a file transfer. Second half of the mp3."

John said, "I see. The body must learn how to be still first. Like what I told you earlier, learn how to still the body completely as if you can do without it, then still the mind. Having the ability to control thought patterns as what I told you. This is important."

AEN said, "I see. Transfer of '09 Track 9.mp3' is complete. Initiated a file transfer. Another one. Transfer of '12 Track 12.mp3' is complete."

John said, "What it said is okay, but not to try, as I told you, only after you are able to still your body and thoughts. Although there is clarity, if one isn't able to have mastery over thought patterns, he will suffer. The key is to learn how to still your body first. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "One should not go into certain forms of practices if he isn't ready. The condition must be right. Your Sifu is saying the effect, the experience. But the conditions of when one is ready are not mentioned."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "To know the problems associated when one isn't ready is equally critical. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The manifestation of every moment is really the nature itself. So where and what is the problem?"

AEN said, "No problem? The problem is grasping and illusion?"

John said, "It is identification of particularities of the temporal manifestation. As long as we identify, the problem will arise."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "What is the difference between knowing and Presence?"

AEN said, "Knowing conceptually? Knowing is dualistic, presence is non-dual."

John said, "Yes, but what is presence like? When you know the clear knowingness and are clear about what is presence... the conditions for sustained no-self will arise."

AEN said, "I see."