Soh

Mr. AD opined,

"Guru devotion

Yes yes but only so far
As it is said
A nice fire...
Get closer to catch the heat of Dharma
But not too close otherwise
We risk to burn ourselves
Ego is imperfect
The teacher is imperfect
And he is not the Dharma
Instruction for realisation
Is:
Rest within the natural radiance
Of the unborn mind
Beyond accepting
Or rejecting
Conceptual structures
And not: act dum
And do everything the "Guru" says or do
Just to get validation juice
That never ends
And make your lama's ego grow
Vipassana and Shamata
Deep inquiry and calm abiding
Two sides, One coin
Go to teacher for transmission
And go away
He has nothing else for you
Then,
find new water to chop
And wood to carry.
-Mindless blatter of Unknown Yogi"
 
 

Soh replied,

"It would not suffice to just “receive transmission”. People should find a guru that is truly awakened, not just a random guru. Then they need to study and learn from that guru until they themselves awaken.

Excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/01/finding-awakened-spiritual-teacher-and.html

Bodhidharma, esteemed as the first patriarch of Chan/Zen, marking him as a foundational and transformative figure in the lineage and teachings of this tradition, emphasizes the crucial role of a teacher in the journey towards enlightenment. In his teachings, he states, "To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature. Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you don’t see your nature, being mindful of Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are not equal to it. Being mindful of Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good intelligence; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth in heavens, and making offerings results in future blessings — but no buddha. If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to know the root of births and deaths. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a good teacher. Even if he can recite the twelve groups of scriptures he can’t escape the Wheel of Births and Deaths. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the twelve groups of scriptures. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your own Heart, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha have to see your nature directly. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run outwards to seek for external objects, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a good teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion. If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black.” Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma. They preach as if they were bringing rain. But theirs is the preaching of devils not of Buddhas. Their teacher is the King of Devils and their disciples are the Devil’s minions. Deluded people who follow such instruction unwittingly sink deeper in the Sea of Birth and Death.

Unless they see their nature, how can people call themselves Buddhas they’re liars who deceive others into entering the realm of devils. Unless they see their nature, their preaching of the Twelvefold Canon is nothing but the preaching of devils. Their allegiance is to Mara, not to the Buddha. Unable to distinguish white from black, how can they escape birth and death?

Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesn’t is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our Buddha nature. Beyond this nature there’s no Buddha. The Buddha is our nature. There’s no Buddha besides this nature. And there’s no nature besides the Buddha."

Also, Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche said:

“If you wish to eradicate your afflictions, you must follow your teacher and study for a long time. Otherwise, studying for only a few days will not have any significant effect ... Some people today are not willing to study or reflect on the Dharma, but they are enthusiastic about meditation. They believe meditating all day with their eyes shut is the ultimate practice. I do not think much of this. Although there are people of the highest caliber who attain enlightenment without study or reflection, are you of such caliber? Therefore, you cannot live in a cave or another completely isolated place when you first start to practice. Instead, you should be with a qualified Dharma teacher and earnestly receive the Buddhadharma; it is best if you are always engaged in study, reflection, and practice. Of course, I am not asking you to study and reflect for a lifetime without ever practicing. But to spend an entire life in blind meditation without any study or reflection is also the wrong path!“"


Soh:

"In one of your sub posts you said most gurus are abusive. I disagree, I think most gurus are not abusive, but some indeed are. However it is the duty of all students to choose their guru wisely and carefully. You should not blindly follow any gurus but examine them first, have some criterias to select. For example, Dzogchen texts gives a list of criterias to select a guru.

Kyle Dixon (krodha) shared on Reddit before:


"In the Rig pa rang shar tantra, chapter 9, the attributes of a qualified teacher are listed:

The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning has a positive attitude, is skillful in teaching, has obtained the empowerments, applies the meaning of Secret Mantra, understands all the inner and outer activities, is inseparable from the meditation deity, remains undistracted in samadhi, is knowledgable in the secret tantras of Secret Mantra, possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection, engages in all outer and inner sadhanas, [18b] never leaves the meaning of the view, gives up outer, inner, and secret activities, is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel, and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury. With the cord of compassion unsevered and the stream of affection uninterrupted, the master and disciple are thus connected.

A “master” to avoid is described as follows:

A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars, who is self-important, stupid, literal-minded, who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra, has harsh words for others, is boastful, has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya, [18/a] is unable to answer questions, has little learning, and great pride — such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple. He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati. Do not associate with such a person.

Jigme Lingpa comments on the above excerpt regarding the unqualified teacher:

As it says, do not get involved with such a demonic master.

Longchenpa, in his own response to the above excerpt from the rig pa rang shar (regarding the unqualified teacher), states:

Accordingly, I advise you to avoid them.

The kun byed rgyal po tantra states:

The inauthentic master teaches scripture like a monkey, his false path beset with concepts.

And regarding the qualified teacher it goes on to say:

The master who displays the truth is a precious treasury worth an inestimable price.

Jigme Lingpa continues:

This tantra [rig pa rang shar] also speaks of six characteristics:

[i] having put all samsaric phenomena behind him, [ii] having few desires and being content, [iii] being skilled in practice and having had experiences, [iv] being learned in the meanings of the tantras and having striven to accomplish them, [v] being learned in the meaning of the view and being completely capable with it, and [vi] having great compassion and being happy in renunciation.

One with the complete set of these qualities is said to be necessary. If, on the other hand, he is merely an effigy of whom it is said This one is a wonderful source of miracles, This one holds an unsurpassable rank, and This one is a sacred object of worship and harmony with worldly people, then he is not [a genuine teacher].

More from Jamgon Köngtrul:

Avoid a master whose traits are discordant with those of a true teacher; But since a fully qualified master is rare, follow the one who is replete with good qualities.

A teacher whose traits are discordant with the characteristics of the [true] master stands outside of the Buddhist doctrine and connot be taken as a spiritual teacher. Consequently, even though the teacher may be very famous, active, etc., the discriminating student should be aware [of these shortcomings] and detach him or herself [from the teacher]. This should be done even if a teacher-student relationship has already been formed. If one has not yet formed such a relationship, one should avoid doing so, right from the beginning. Sakya Pandita states:

Detach yourself from the spiritual teacher
Who does not conform to the Buddha's teaching.

We should learn how to recognize [bad teachers] from the many descriptions given in the scriptures and then shun them. For example, the Condensed Tantra [of the wheel of Time] states:

Proud, subject to uncontrollable anger, defiant of pledges, guilty of misappropriation, ignorant [of the doctrine], willfully deceptive of students, having failed to enter the state of supreme bliss, uninitiated, a slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire: wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell.

Because we are living in a [degenerate] age, we very rarely meet a teacher endowed with all of the necessary qualifications. Since we may never meet such a teacher, we should accept a master who has many good qualities and very few weaknesses. [Pundarika's] Ultimate Familiarization states:

In this age of conflict, spiritual masters will exhibit both faults and virtues; not one is absolutely irreproachable. Therefore, examine well even those who excel in virtue before beginning to study with them."

"

Zen teacher Ven Jinmyo Renge Sensei: "Sometimes students really can't understand why they can't just sit at home, by themselves, without instruction. After all, the Buddha did that. Bodhidharma did that. May I point out that you are not the Buddha and you are not Bodhidharma. You're also not Einstein and you're not going to come up with anything like the theory of relativity – not without countless years of instruction and study and probably not even then. You're not Bach and so it is highly unlikely that you will write music like his, not without countless years of instruction and study. Sorry if this is the first time anyone's pointed this out, but things are not all equal, they're not all fair, we do not all have the same starting point and you are as you are, not as someone else is. Or was. Start from where you are and be willing to learn from others.


You might not like what I just said, but do you understand why I said it?

I once asked the Roshi about Teachers – if two people who had nothing in common Woke Up and became Teachers, would they somehow come to agree with each other about everything? He said "No, but they would understand why the other was saying or doing what he or she was saying or doing."" - https://wwzc.org/book/export/html/1017

 


Mr CK wrote:
Top contributor
Soh Wei Yu a good book on this matter is Guru Drinks Bourbon? by DKR 🙏
  • Reply
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
Cao Khánh i have not read that book yet sorry
Although the book title sounds intriguing
  • Reply
Mr CK wrote:
Top contributor
Soh Wei Yu i would recommend it. It also goes into the distinction between a Dharma Instructor and a Tantric Master. The difference in cultural baggage and how it shows up in devotion.
And absolutely points out the need to examine the guru’s qualities. It gives many important pointers imo
  • Reply

 

Soh

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/26988828614065213/

Mr EJ said:

Hello,
I have had this realization which is an odd one, that everything is Karma unfolding and that the world is actually perfect just the way it is. Things happen because they must.
But this comes off as cold to most people.
The person getting murdered is their karma and the person murdering is their karma to murder. Sounds very weird to the average person.
The truth is, that's just Karma working itself out. We don't know their past lives. They have to go through it, for whatever reason.
But I'm not saying ah whatever, my heart suffers in a different way. Wanting to help people on a spiritual level to get out samsara, not just have a good human birth.
With all this being said, I have also realized my goal as a human being is not really to go out there and change the world for the better because the world is already the way it is. My goal is to get out of Samsara and attain Buddhahood or Bodhisattva to help souls spirituality.
Has anyone had this realization? And how can we explain this to someone without sounding cold showing no signs of empathy?
 
 
Soh replied:
 
 Your post inclines towards determinism. Karma does not mean determinism.

“Author: Astus
Date: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
Beings are the makers and heirs of their own actions. If they were not the makers, that would be determinism. If they were not the heirs, that would be indeterminism. Such denial of cause and effect is called wrong view (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.119/en/sujato), and is based on the mistaken belief in a self (https://suttacentral.net/sn24.5/en/sujato).

Author: Astus
Date: Fri Jul 19, 2024 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
The Buddha has rejected both determinism and indeterminism (https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato), and he practically ridiculed those who denied autonomy in their actions (https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato). Naturally, what's been done is done, but currently one chooses how to act (https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/sujato), therefore bad habits can be rectified (https://suttacentral.net/sn42.8/en/sujato), and even the consequences of past actions can be mitigated (https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/sujato).”

Also, not everything is due to karma:

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.21/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false"

Mr EJ said: "yes determinism from one's own Karma.
An apple seed is determined to grow an apple tree.
Not determinism that some God up in the sky makes decisions, we're all victims.
That is not what I meant in my post."

Soh replied: "karma is not determinism, as the suttas above stated, and other posts I made in this thread explained

karma does not determine that someone is a murderer, etc
This is why people can change"
 
Mr EJ said, "if an Apple seed is planted with all the right conditions, an apple tree is determined to grow. Not a pear, not a watermelon.
What is that law called in Buddhism?"
 
 
Soh replied: "Buddha taught dependent origination, in which karma is only one subset of it. Karma is not the cause of everything. Also, dependent origination does not imply determinism. An apple seed can be planted, but you can stop it from ever growing if you either remove the seed, block it from receiving sunlight, not give enough nutrients for the seed to grow, and so on and so forth. Dependent origination does not imply agents or inherent producers and production, it does not mean determinism.

If an apple seed could determine that an apple tree Must grow, then nothing could be done to stop it. But it does not. Apple seed needs other conditions to grow, and we can could divest those conditions through various means.

Likewise, as Buddha was saying, past karma or actions does not determine that a person is a murderer this life. A murderer can change and mend his ways, can take refuge in the triple gems and follow the noble eightfold path to awakening, and so forth. There is the cause of suffering, an end to suffering and a path that leads to the end of suffering. If nothing could be done to change our ways, then all sentient beings will be forever doomed. Buddhism is not about predeterminism or determinism.

Each person has autonomy and a choice to make. It doesn't matter what conditionings we have, we have the autonomy to make the right choice to undertake the path as taught by Buddha, to undergo the training of sila (conduct/precepts), samadhi (meditative composure), and prajna (wisdom, insight). These three trainings lead to liberation.

You can read more at https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/quietening-inner-chatter.html

Also, this one should clarify things:

THE TROUBLE WITH AGENCY

In INSIGHTS by James Corrigan4 Comments
Agency implies an agent. If there is no agent, there can be no agency. Agency, of course, is the action or intervention of a thing, or person, that produces an effect. To say that language can’t capture the truth is even more true when silly things are being stated. So when someone talks about causes and conditions, they are being silly because these are not the same. A cause is that which makes a thing happen. It implies an agent and agency, a veritable proliferation of sillinesses. A condition is that which opens the possibility of something happening. But conditions can never cause anything to happen because they are neither an agent nor have agency. Perhaps this surprises you. But think about all the things you thought were going to happen in your life that didn’t, and all the things that did that you never saw coming!

Scientists call this stochastic behavior, it extends all the way down to the quantum level, and perhaps especially there. It’s the reason why a computer needs a clock, that coordinates all the stochastic behavior of electronic components so that the device can actually accomplish the tasks it has been engineered to allow to happen. Notice I didn’t say make happen, because sometimes things don’t. And we’ve probably all experienced that too.

Often, in our attempts to make sense of reality, we fall into old habits of thought that arise from an understanding in our heads that things do things. Exorcising that understanding happens naturally when a certain point is reached, but without the direct experience, silliness abounds.

Parmenides, an Ancient Greek philosopher once wrote a poem about his insights into reality. He didn’t use any pronouns, and few, if any nouns. Smart people, thinking they knew what he meant, supplied a lot of additional wording that made the poem easier to read, but empty of truth. Then, once that was done, they realized that Parmenides hadn’t said the right thing in the right way, so they fixed that up too. When Parmenides said: “the same: to be and wherefore is intuitive awareness” (“ταὐτὸν δ᾽ ἐστὶ νοεῖν τε καὶ οὓνεκέν ἐστι νόημα”), equating the manifesting appearances and selfless knowing, they clarified it, equating “being” with “thinking,” turning it into a kind of “I think, therefore I am!” statement instead. Silliness. Neither the Greek word for thought, nor for thinking appears anywhere in Parmenides’ statement.

So, try to make sense of conditions, not as any kind of interaction between entities, not even in a metaphorical fashion. Instead, think of how a seed grows. The sun doesn’t cause the seed to grow, any more than rain does, or the soil, or all the bacteria, fungi, animals, and other plants do. Yet, for the seed to grow, all of those conditions need to be right, including the condition of the seed being present.

As to what causes the seed to grow, well, just let the idea of causes go. It involves agents and agency, and they are just silly nonsense. Understand that when the right conditions are present, the possibility of genesis is present, but what actually happens is uncaused.

Now divest that scenario of all sense of things inherent in it. Sunlight isn’t a thing, except as a concept. Neither is water, or soil, or all the life present in soil. These are all just ideas, ways to talk about reality in shorthand. Instead, see an amazing, and coherent presencing of selfless naturing. Don’t even hold onto the idea of a nature, as something doing the naturing. It will cause a cognitive dissonance that will tire you out, but the effort lays a groundwork for the direct experience to come. It’s all just more conditioning, and in this case, it’s called mind training, but it could be called mind conditioning as well, because you are not making anything happen, you are only developing the right conditions for certain experiences to happen.

So remember: there is no mind, instead there is just this awesome and beautiful selfless naturing. Or if you prefer, there is just this awesome and beautiful selfless minding. But no nature and no mind anywhere, just the appearance of awesome beauty. Reflect on that phrase, awesome beauty.

Another way of expressing it, that I use, is the visceral essence of selfless loving. But you can just call it bliss instead." 
 
Soh said: "Also read all my other replies on this thread carefully." 
 
Mr EJ said, "Sorry maybe this is off topic, but question was, apple seed becoming an apple tree. There's a knowledge in there, a law. The law that knows an apple seed must grow to be an apple tree, not any other tree. What is that called in Buddhism?"
 
Soh replied: "That is referring to the general principle of dependent origination, of which karma is only a subset (also not applicable in your example of apple tree because karma literally means 'action' or volitional actions that only pertains to sentient beings, and trees are not karmically born sentient beings) but it is not a pre determining sort of law. An apple seed will not grow an apple tree unless there are other conditions involved. There are ways to stop it from growing.

Likewise nobody is 'predetermined' to be a murderer, etc. Karma, dependent origination, etc, does not determine that someone is so, and one always has autonomy and choice to steer the course away from suffering to liberation by engaging in the noble path taught by Buddha.
 
 Buddha:

"When this is, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises; when this is not, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases; namely: dependent on ignorance, volitional formations....(and so on). Thus does this whole mass of suffering arise. With the utter cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional formations....(and so on). Thus does this whole mass of suffering cease.""
  
... 

Soh:

"“As to the specifics of your question I’m not sure, but here are a few major differences between classical “determinism” and Buddhist karmic causality:

Determinism proper necessarily involves inherently existent causes giving rise to inherently existent effects in a unilateral manner.

Karmic cause and effect in the context of the buddhadharma is only valid conventionally, and since every cause is an effect and every effect a cause, they are, in a coarse sense, bilateral in nature.

Karma can be “determined” in a certain sense, but since karma takes direction from intention, change can occur, certain results can be averted, suffering can be mitigated and ideally uprooted altogether.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019

“Kyle Dixon Dante Rosati we gave volition [cetana], and can direct that volition freely.

Of course we are subject to our karma, but it is not as rigidly deterministic as you suggest.
1

Kyle Dixon Yes, we “have,” possess, volition. And are capable of directing it where we choose.
○ Like
○ · Reply
○ · 17h

Kyle Dixon Life is not a fully automated process in the sense that you are like a helpless leaf being blown around by the wind, is the point.

You can make choices and direct volition.

Kyle Dixon Eric Aksunah I don’t know the specifics.

I just recall Malcolm once said we don’t have “free will” because such a principle implies a rational agent, and we are still subject to karma. Nevertheless, we can direct our volition and intention in specific directions, such as following the path.
1
○ Like
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○ · 15h
“ - Kyle Dixon, 2020

“Determinism would require truly established causes giving rise to established effects in a unilateral manner, thus based on that buddhadharma is not deterministic. Causes are only conventional, and cause and effect are bilateral dependencies. Like Āryadeva says, we might think the father is the cause of the child, but the child is also the cause of the father.

Re free will, we Buddhists acknowledge volition [cetana] but only conventionally. Free will is actually a monotheist principle used to reconcile sin with a creator deity. Thus free will proper is not a thing in Buddhism. Further, free will requires a rational agent which buddhadharma does not uphold. And actually we negate such a thing. As such we have conventional volition but are still subject to karma.” – Kyle Dixon, 2022

Also, here's Buddha's teaching: https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

• Numbered Discourses 6.38
• 4. Deities
“One’s Own Volition
Then a certain brahmin went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:
“Mister Gotama, this is my doctrine and view: One does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition.”
“Brahmin, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! How on earth can someone who comes and goes on his own say that one does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition?
What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of initiative?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since this is so, do we find sentient beings who initiate activity?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since there is an element of initiative, and sentient beings who initiate activity are found, sentient beings act of their own volition or that of another.
What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of persistence … exertion … strength … endurance … energy?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since this is so, do we find sentient beings who have energy?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since there is an element of energy, and sentient beings who have energy are found, sentient beings act of their own volition or that of another.
Brahmin, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! How on earth can someone who comes and goes on his own say that one does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition?”
“Excellent, Mister Gotama! Excellent! … From this day forth, may Mister Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.””"

---
 
Soh shared:

"[Someone wrote:] “There is nobody controlling anger, anger arise whether one wants to or not”

[John replied:] Maybe sees it this way:

There is no one controlling anger, anger arises due to dependent origination.

With ignorance comes attachment. When attachment meets its secondary conditions, anger arises. Without secondary conditions, anger does not arise. Although it does not arise, it will not cease to arise unless the primary cause is severed. Here the appearance of “spontaneous arising” is seen from the perspective of DO.

Seeing this way, there is anatta; there is dependent origination; there is mindfulness of the cause of anger, the conditions, the cure and the ending of it. There is no bypassing as in “nothing needs be done”, albeit no-self."

On the subject of free will, John Tan said:

"Nihilistic tendencies arise when the insight of anatta is skewed towards the no-doership aspect. The happening by itself must be correctly understood. It appears that things are accomplished by doing nothing but in actual case it is things get done due to ripening of action and conditions.

So the lack of self-nature does not imply nothing needs be done or nothing can be done. That is one extreme. At the other end of extreme is the self-nature of perfect control of what one wills, one gets. Both are seen to be false. Action + conditions leads to effect.
June 1 at 11:32am · Unlike · 8"
 
Soh:
 
"The Buddha said:

(Partial excerpt from https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false)

"Regarding this, I went up to the ascetics and brahmins whose view is that everything that is experienced is because of past deeds, and I said to them: ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answered, ‘Yes’. I said to them: ‘In that case, you might kill living creatures, steal, be unchaste; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; be covetous, malicious, or have wrong view, all because of past deeds.’

Those who believe that past deeds are the most important thing have no enthusiasm or effort, no idea that there are things that should and should not be done. Since they don’t actually find that there are things that should and should not be done, they’re unmindful and careless, and can’t rightly be called ascetics. This is my first legitimate refutation of the ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view."

Continue reading from the link above"
 
 
Mr. AZ asked, "isn't karma precisely conditionality?"
 
Soh replied, "No. Here's a partial excerpt from https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

"...Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:

"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine. Being created by an Almighty God who controls our destinies and predetermines our future, or being produced by an irresistible Karma that completely determines our fate and controls our life’s course, independent of any free action on our part, is essentially the same. The only difference lies in the two words God and Karma. One could easily be substituted for the other, because the ultimate operation of both forces would be identical.

Such a fatalistic doctrine is not the Buddhist law of Karma.

According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.

They are:

Utu Niyama - physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
Dhamma Niyama - order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.

Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Karma as such is only one of these five orders. Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver...""   
 
  
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Soh:

After reading the other posts I made in this thread, I predict the neo advaitin minds will think, "how can there be choice, volition, autonomy if there is no self?"

The answer to this can be found here:

Partial excerpt: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/choosing.html

John Tan:

The logic that since there is no agency, hence no choice to be made is no different from "no sufferer, therefore no suffering".

This is not anatta insight.

What is seen through in anatta is the mistaken view that the conventional structure of "subject action object" represents reality when it is not. Action does not require an agent to initiate it. It is language that creates the confusion that nouns are required to set verbs into motion.

Therefore the action of choosing continues albeit no chooser.

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."


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ChatGPT summary:

In the provided conversation, Soh and other contributors explain why karma and dependent origination in Buddhism do not equate to determinism. Here's a summary of their key points:

  1. Karma vs. Determinism:

    • Karma refers to the law of cause and effect related to actions and their consequences. However, it is not deterministic because it does not rigidly fix outcomes based solely on past actions.
    • Mr. EJ's Misconception: He initially suggests that everything unfolds due to karma, implying a deterministic worldview. Soh clarifies that this view misunderstands karma's flexibility.
    • Autonomy and Change: Buddhism teaches that individuals possess volition (cetana), allowing them to make choices that can alter their karmic path. This means people can change their actions and mitigate past karma, preventing a fixed destiny.
  2. Dependent Origination (Pratītyasamutpāda):

    • Interdependent Causality: Dependent origination explains that all phenomena arise in dependence upon multiple conditions and causes. It emphasizes a bilateral and interconnected causal relationship rather than a single, unidirectional cause-effect mechanism.
    • Flexibility and Non-Determinism: Since dependent origination involves numerous conditions, outcomes are not predetermined. Changes in any of the contributing factors can lead to different results, allowing for personal and spiritual transformation.
  3. Rejection of Both Determinism and Indeterminism:

    • Buddha's Teachings: The Buddha explicitly rejected both determinism (the idea that all events are predetermined and inevitable) and indeterminism (the notion that events occur without any cause).
    • Middle Path Approach: Buddhism adopts a middle path, recognizing that while past actions influence present circumstances, individuals retain the capacity to make choices that shape their future.
  4. Volition Without a Fixed Self:

    • Anatta (No-Self): Buddhism teaches the concept of anatta, or no inherent self. Despite this, individuals still exercise volition through their intentions and actions.
    • Choosing Without a Fixed Chooser: Actions occur without a permanent "self" orchestrating them, but the process of choosing and acting remains integral to personal development and liberation.
  5. Practical Implications:

    • Path to Liberation: Emphasizing personal effort, ethical conduct (sila), meditation (samadhi), and wisdom (prajna), Buddhism encourages individuals to actively engage in their spiritual journey, demonstrating that outcomes are not fixed by past karma alone.
    • Potential for Change: Even those with negative past actions, such as murderers, have the opportunity to change and pursue enlightenment, underscoring the non-deterministic nature of karma.

Conclusion: Karma and dependent origination in Buddhism outline a complex web of interdependent causes and conditions that influence but do not rigidly determine outcomes. Buddhism upholds individual autonomy and the potential for change, rejecting both strict determinism and complete randomness. This framework allows for personal responsibility, ethical action, and the pursuit of spiritual liberation.

Soh

 
Soh replying someone on the  insight of Anatman and No Mind, quoting Jayson MPaul (now Juliette Paul):  “https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/the-doctrine-of-no-mind-by-bodhidharma.html

On a summary of no mind, see Jayson MPaul :
"Jayson MPaul
none of these things are about nihilism, although that is a real danger for those who misunderstand emptiness. No Mind is what is always already true. It has no existence of its own. No mind apart from phenomena, no phenomena apart from mind. This is what Soh Wei Yu meant when he said there is no true existence of mind."”

Soh comments:

That is the anatta insight

I think dependent origination is a deeper penetration

I think Juliette took dependent origination seriously later and was clear about total exertion etc

Bodhidharma also points to it when he said this and also quoted buddha. 心不自心,因境故心;境不自境,因心故境。"The mind does not exist as mind on its own; it is mind due to conditions of phenomena. Phenomena do not exist as phenomena on their own; they are phenomena due to conditions of the mind."

I think that is not merely no mind or anatman but also points to dependent origination 




The myriad forms of the entire universe are the seal of the single Dharma. Whatever forms are seen are but the perception of mind. But mind is not independently existent. It is co-dependent with form.
- Zen Master Mazu

 

-- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/some-zen-masters-quotations-on-anatman.html

 

When we see consciousness, we see all the factors supporting consciousness, not just consciousness standing alone independent of conditions.

 

I just posted this sutra which i find nice to atr blog: https://www.84000.co/texts/toh210-the-rice-seedling

Excerpt:


“For instance, the eye consciousness arises by way of five principles. What five principles? Namely, the eye consciousness arises based on the eye on which it depends, form, light, space, and the appropriate attention. Here, the eye functions as the basis for the eye consciousness. Form functions as the object of perception for the eye consciousness. Light functions as visibility. Space functions by not obstructing. Appropriate attention functions as mental reflection. Without these conditions, the eye consciousness cannot arise. But when the inner sense source, the eye, is not deficient, and likewise, when form, light, space, and appropriate attention are not deficient, then from the coming together of all these factors, the eye consciousness arises.



1.­49

“The eye does not think, ‘I serve as the basis for the eye consciousness.’ Nor does form think, ‘I serve as the object of perception for the eye consciousness.’ Nor does light think, ‘I function as the visibility for the eye consciousness.’ Nor does space think, ‘I do not obstruct the eye consciousness.’ Nor does appropriate attention think, [F.122.a] ‘I provide mental reflection for the eye consciousness.’ Nor does the eye consciousness think, ‘I am produced by these conditions.’ Yet, the eye consciousness is born from the presence of these conditions. Similarly, a corresponding analysis should be applied to the rest of the faculties.



1.­50

“Here, there is nothing36 whatsoever that transmigrates from this existence to the next. And yet, because there is no deficiency of requisite causes and conditions, the result of karma nonetheless manifests. It is like the appearance of the reflection of a face on the surface of a well-polished mirror. The face has not shifted onto the surface of the mirror, but because there is no deficiency of requisite causes and conditions, the face nonetheless appears there.



Soh

Original article in English: Self Enquiry, Neti Neti and the Process of Elimination

Translated to Polish by Paul Wolf:



Często mówię, że samo-dociekanie to nie mantra. To nie jest coś takiego, gdzie w umyśle powtarzasz: „Kim jestem… Kim jestem…”. To nie jest tego rodzaju praktyka. Jest to badanie, eksploracja, dociekanie prawdziwej natury tożsamości i świadomości.

Dociekanie / koan „Kim jestem przed narodzinami?” ma podwójny cel: wyeliminowanie wszelkiej konceptualnej identyfikacji (ego) oraz odkrycie wewnętrznej, promiennej Świadomości, czyli Czystej Obecności / Bycia.

Podczas mojej podróży samo-dociekania, która trwała ponad dwa lata (od 2008 do lutego 2010), obejmującej medytacyjne kontemplacje, takie jak „Kim jestem przed narodzinami?”, eliminowałem wszystkich kandydatów „mojego ja” – nie jestem moimi rękoma, nogami, imieniem, myślami. One przychodzą i odchodzą, są obserwowane, nie są mną. Więc kim jestem? Jak powiedział wcześniej John Tan: „Nie możesz poznać »Ostatecznego Źródła« bez procesu eliminacji”. Co jest eliminowane? Konceptualne identyfikowanie się z różnymi obiektami skonstruowanymi i postrzeganymi umysłowo. Dlatego zadaje się pytanie „przed narodzinami”, ponieważ kieruje ono umysł ku tej eliminacji. A co ta eliminacja ujawnia? Kim jestem, czym jest owo promienne Bycie, które zostaje odsłonięte po tym procesie eliminacji?

Ramana Mahariszi powiedział:

1. Kim jestem?

Nie jestem materialnym ciałem, które składa się z siedmiu rodzajów tkanek (dhatus); nie jestem pięcioma zmysłami poznawczymi, tj. słuchem, dotykiem, wzrokiem, smakiem i węchem, które postrzegają odpowiednie obiekty, tj. dźwięk, dotyk, kolor, smak i zapach; nie jestem pięcioma narządami działania, tj. ośrodkiem mowy, poruszania się, chwytania, wydalania i prokreacji, których funkcje to odpowiednio mówienie, poruszanie się, chwytanie przedmiotów, wydalanie i rozkoszowanie się; nie jestem pięcioma witalnymi prądami, praną itp., które wykonują odpowiednio pięć funkcji (oddychanie itd.); nie jestem nawet umysłem, który myśli; nie jestem nawet niewiedzą, która jest obdarzona tylko pozostałościami wrażeń obiektów i w której nie ma obiektów ani funkcjonowania.

2. Jeżeli nie jestem żadnym z tych, to kim jestem?

Po zanegowaniu wszystkich wyżej wymienionych jako „nie to, nie to”, świadomość, która pozostaje – to jestem ja.

3. Jaka jest natura świadomości (ang. awareness)?

Natura świadomości to istnienie-przytomność-błogość.

Kontynuuj lekturę: https://app.box.com/s/v8r7i8ng17cxr1aoiz9ca1jychct6v84

Ta linia dociekania („Kim jestem przed narodzinami?”) doprowadziła mnie do chwili w cichej medytacji, gdzie wszystko ustało, pozostawiając jedynie niewzruszoną pewność czystego istnienia i obecności.

Eliminacja konceptów, aż nie zostanie żaden, z pewnym wsparciem w postaci samo-dociekania lub koanu zen, pozwala osiągnąć stan całkowitej ciszy (ciszy konceptualnego umysłu) i bezpośrednie potwierdzenie obecności / wyrazistości / promienności.

Chociaż ta metoda skutecznie rozpuszcza konceptualne przywiązania i ujawnia promienny rdzeń Świadomości, nie rozwiązuje jednak problemu inherentnego istnienia zjawisk oraz dualizmu podmiotowo-przedmiotowego, ani też nie daje wglądu w to, że zarówno „ja”, jak i zjawiska są tylko nominalne. Aby przezwyciężyć poglądy, które utrwalają cztery skrajności, potrzeba głębszych wglądów i uświadomień. Czasami nazywamy to w skrócie inherencją, oznaczającą, że pojęcia są utrwalane i błędnie postrzegane jako rzeczywiste. Wymaga to jednak głębszych wglądów i jest kluczowe dla uwolnienia głębszych afektywnych i poznawczych zaciemnień. Samo zatrzymanie myślenia konceptualnego lub ujawnienie się własnej Promienności nie wystarczy, aby zrozumieć jej naturę.

Na tym etapie, po zrealizowaniu promienności, John Tan wskazuje:

Zanim możemy przejść do kolejnej ścieżki i skupić się na promienności oraz na naturalnym stanie, bez rozpoznania implikacji wynikających z konwencjonalności i przejrzenia ich, będą istniały ciągłe poznawcze oraz emocjonalne zaciemnienia. Jak daleko i głęboko możesz pójść? Tym bardziej trudno mówić o naturalnym stanie, gdy nie można nawet rozróżnić, co jest konwencjonalne, a co ostateczne.

Jak powiedział John Tan:

Kiedy potwierdzamy promienną wyrazistość bezpośrednio, mamy osobiste doświadczenie smaku tego, co nazywa się „ostatecznym, wolnym od wszelkich konceptualnych wyobrażeń”, ale umysł nie jest „wolny od konceptualnych wyobrażeń”.

Wcześniej napisałem również:

Postrzeganie siebie lub własnego spostrzegania jako podmiotu i zjawisk jako przedmiotów to fundamentalne przeświadczenie, które uniemożliwia smakowanie przejawień jako promiennej wyrazistości… nawet po uświadomieniu anattā (bezjaźniowości) pozostają subtelne zaciemnienia poznawcze, które utrwalają zjawiska, ich pojawianie się i zanikanie, przyczynę i skutek, inherentne powstawanie itd.

Tak więc przeświadczenie nie polega tylko na sztywnym myśleniu, takim jak etykietowanie, ale jest dla mnie jak zasłona utrwalania, która rzutuje i zniekształca promienne przejawienia i ich naturę.

Innym sposobem, aby to ująć, jest to, że fundamentalnym konceptualnym wyobrażeniem, które zaciemnia rzeczywistość / takość, jest utrwalanie siebie i zjawisk w kategoriach skrajności istnienia i nieistnienia z powodu niewiedzy odnośnie natury umysłu / przejawień.

Jeżeli masz na myśli tylko potwierdzenie promiennej wyrazistości, jak „ja jestem”, to jest to po prostu niekonceptualny smak i uświadomienie obecności.

Ten moment jest niedualny i niekonceptualny oraz niesfabrykowany, ale to nie znaczy, że pogląd zakładający inherencję został przejrzany. Ponieważ fundamentalna ignorancja pozostaje nietknięta, promienność będzie nadal przekształcana w podmiot i przedmiot.

W książce E. Napper możemy przeczytać:

Proces wykorzenienia awidji (niewiedzy) jest pojmowany… nie jako samo zatrzymanie myśli, ale jako aktywna realizacja przeciwieństwa tego, co ignorancja błędnie pojmuje. Awidja nie jest po prostu brakiem wiedzy, ale specyficznym błędnym przekonaniem i musi zostać usunięta przez uświadomienie jej przeciwieństwa. W tym duchu Tsongkhapa mówi, że nie można pozbyć się błędnego przeświadczenia o „inherentnym istnieniu” jedynie przez zatrzymanie konceptualizacji, tak jak nie można pozbyć się pomysłu, że w ciemnej jaskini jest demon, jedynie starając się o nim nie myśleć. Podobnie, gdy trzeba zapalić lampę i zobaczyć, że tam nie ma demona, tak potrzebne jest światło mądrości, aby rozproszyć ciemność ignorancji.

[w]: Elizabeth Napper, „Dependent-Arising and Emptiness: A Tibetan Buddhist Interpretation of Madhyamika Philosophy”, Wisdom Publications, 2003, str. 103, ISBN 0861713648

Ważne jest jednak, aby zauważyć, że autorzy ze szkoły Gelug i spoza szkoły Gelug mogą mieć różne definicje konceptualności, jak lata temu zauważył John Tan:

Nie do końca, obie strony mają pewne bardzo głębokie racje. „Konceptualność” Miphama nie odnosi się tylko do symbolicznej warstwy, ale także do poglądu na siebie, co jest bardziej kluczowe. Mipham bardzo jasno to określił i powiedział, że Gelug błędnie rozumie konceptualność jako jedynie symboliczną i mentalną nadbudowę, co nie jest tym, do czego się odnosił, a następnie przedstawił 3 rodzaje konceptualności. To samo dotyczy również Dharmakirti… Istnieje ogólna definicja i bardziej subtelne definicje.

Jednak dla początkujących, którzy próbują zrealizować „ja jestem”, przejście przez wspomniany wcześniej proces eliminacji oraz skupienie się na samo-dociekaniu jest wystarczające, aby doprowadzić do samo-realizacji.

Warto przeczytać artykuł „The Direct Path to Your Real Self”, ponieważ autorowi udało się doprowadzić kilku ludzi do uświadomienia „ja jestem” i dobrze wyjaśnia on proces samo-dociekania oraz proces eliminacji.


Pytanie:

Dziękuję, Soh, bardzo to doceniam.

Znam część materiału, ale przejdę przez wszystko ponownie.

Czy możesz powiedzieć coś bardziej szczegółowego na temat jakości pytania „co jest świadome »ja«” w przeciwieństwie do „kim jestem”? Jeśli pozostawia mnie to w „bardziej pustym” doświadczeniu, to czy jest to na pewno lepsze pytanie dla mnie, czy ważne jest, aby nadal próbować dekonstruować tę nieprzyjemnie zmieniającą się tożsamość, na którą wskazuje „kim jestem”?

Soh odpowiedział:

„Kim jestem” nie wskazuje na poczucie „ja”, pozwala ci zobaczyć, że to poczucie „ja” w rzeczywistości nie jest tym, kim jesteś. Ty jesteś tym, co jest świadome i wcześniejsze wobec tego poczucia „ja”. Wszystkie przedmioty, które są pojmowane lub postrzegane, a które są błędnie uważane za Jaźń, są naturalnie negowane w stylu „neti neti” – „nie to, nie to”. I tak wracasz do Źródła, czyli do czystego Bycia, wcześniejszego wobec wszelkich konceptów i poczucia „ja”.

„Kim jestem” wskazuje na czyste „ja-ja”, wcześniejsze wobec wszelkiego pojęciowego poczucia siebie i postrzeganych przedmiotów. Innymi słowy, wskazuje na to samo, na co wskazuje „to, co jest świadome”.

To, że poczucie siebie, jak wspomniałeś, „nieprzyjemnie się zmienia”, jest już dla ciebie podpowiedzią, że w rzeczywistości nie jest to tym, kim naprawdę jesteś, nie jest twoją prawdziwą Jaźnią. Więc dociekanie „kim jestem” naturalnie neguje to zmieniające się poczucie „ja” jako możliwego kandydata na to, kim jesteś. A widząc to, naturalnie to dekonstruujesz i wracasz do Źródła w samo-dociekaniu.


„ŚWIADOMOŚĆ, KTÓRA WIE, »JA JESTEM«”

Ramana Mahariszi opisuje poczucie „ja” jako fundamentalną, oczywistą świadomość, która zawsze jest obecna. To jest świadomość, która wie „ja jestem”. To „ja” nie jest ciałem, umysłem ani ego, lecz czystą, niezmienną świadomością, która leży u podstaw wszystkich doświadczeń. Ramana często odnosi się do tego jako „ja-ja” lub prawdziwe „ja”.

Aby rozpoznać, że jest to prawdziwe „ja”, Ramana mówi, iż należy uznać, że jest ono zawsze obecne i samo-świetliste. W przeciwieństwie do przemijających myśli i wrażeń, które przychodzą i odchodzą, to „ja” pozostaje niezmienne. Jest cichym świadkiem wszystkiego, co się dzieje, nie będąc przy tym przez to dotkniętym. Kiedy wszelkie myśli i identyfikacje z ciałem oraz umysłem zostają porzucone dzięki samo-dociekaniu, wtedy to, co pozostaje, to właśnie ten czysty stan istnienia.

Ramana radzi, że dzięki systematycznemu samo-dociekaniu, zadając pytanie „Kim jestem?” i kierując uwagę do wewnątrz, fałszywe identyfikacje opadają. Prawdziwe „ja” objawia się nie jako przedmiot do zobaczenia, lecz jako sama istota naszej egzystencji. Jest doświadczane jako głęboki, inherentny stan obecności i spokoju, pozbawiony atrybutów, wyróżników czy form.

W istocie to poczucie „ja” jest po prostu stanem czystej, niezmiennej świadomości, która zawsze jest obecna. Wiedza o tym, że jest to prawdziwe „ja”, pochodzi z bezpośredniego doświadczenia tej nieprzerwanej, oczywistej świadomości, która przekracza wszystkie tymczasowe doświadczenia i zjawiska.

Źródło:Awakening to Reality, grupa w serwisie Facebook


Obejrzyj koniecznie: https://youtu.be/ZYjI6gh9RxE?si=6M4zn5tHE7fQlJcr


Obejrzyj również: https://youtu.be/MTvyLfCd9jI?si=9sUAHomIpD76iQn-




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