Also see: Transcript of Lankavatara Sutra with Thusness 2007
Transcript with Thusness - Heart of Mahakashyapa, +A and -A Emptiness
Transcript with Thusness - 2012 Self-Releasing

Transcript with Thusness 2013 - Dharmakaya 

Transcript of AtR (Awakening to Reality) Meeting on 28 October 2020
Transcript of AtR (Awakening to Reality) Meeting, March 2021

Left to right: me, truth, john/thusness, dharmadhatu, jui, Mr. C. Not in photo: realization

Notes: Someone asked what is total exertion.

Badly transcribed by AEN.

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Pathie (huang jing rui, a friend) - started the 84000 translation (a project to translate the whole Tibetan canon into English), it is a 100 year work and requires great commitment. DKR doesnt really wanted it at first. So far quite successful.

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John: I like Australia very much. Their air is not the same as Singapore. In Singapore wherever you go it is buildings, … once you go Australia you feel the air… woah… it is a very suitable place for retirees but not for busy people.

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John wanted to retreat into an isolated place in the mountains/forests. He has been trying to find a good location. He also checked if he can donate to build the entire monastery (in Thailand?), and in the process have a room/place for himself undisturbed by anyone including the monks. They told him that is ok.

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[talks with truthz about a friend who drinks for business entertainment] John doesn’t drink, even if he goes for entertainment for business purposes he orders tea instead.

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Since I had penetrating insights, it is difficult for me to find a teacher. But still it is important to find a teacher.

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Since I have just gotten out of army, I have to spend more time to meditate everyday. When I get older it will be difficult to have that sort of clarity/purity as the mind gets involved in many things.

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A075 recording starts:

…the self-proclaimed Dzogchen teacher Mr. J starts to listen to him (me/Soh) because he was unable to see the remainder of substantialist nondual. So when he realized the remainder, he is unable to understand that it is just a recognition. You can experience awareness wherever you are, it means you recognize, but you do not know how to (?) Kyle Dixon and him had a conversation, you can put inside the blog. In Buddhism there is no such thing as conscious, subconscious, all these types of things. There is just six sets of consciousness that dependently originates (?). (me: subconscious is the 8^th consciousness in yogacara?) That is just a figure of speech. You cannot separate consciousness and subconscious, because you are dividing them. In Buddhism there is ignorance. The fact that there is ignorance means, ignorance itself is already a very deep bond. You do not have to say that they (surface?) and then subconscious. By the very fact that you are ignorant, it means you are deeply blinded. It is nothing about the surface. It is already (?) without beginning, without end. It is nothing about the surface, it is deeply latent. You do not need to conjure out a separate subconsciousness.

What Mr. J cannot understand is that he is still very much attached to the space behind, although he clearly sees, he cannot overcome. (Also said later that I and jui are in a ‘clean slate’ so it is faster). That is the problem. Let’s say for example I were to press very hard, I think something that is difficult for earth (…) When you feel something that is solid, something that is wind like your breath, you feel sound, then you feel scenery, all these (?), so there are few types of experience. One is that normally you have object, self, and then subject. So you say oh, this is solid. So what is your experience now? What is solid?

Me: Nothing?

John: Smack you, nothing!

Me: (…) 

John: It is just a dependently originated sensation, but that is intellectual. What is your direct experience after you experience anatta and total experience, what is it? Lets say I press this, solid, solidness, what is that? It is the total activity of this moment. Your entire sensation… so I press this, feel the solidness, feels very solid. For you now, what I say is that, this solidness that I press is very very hard, your entire body mind must be transcended into this experience of solidness. its just this dependently originated.

…For example in anatta - there is no self, just thoughts, just this and that, it’s only the vividness. I’m telling you the next phase is to transcend the entire body-mind into the activity.

For example when I touch this, the body mind is totally forgotten into this moment of activity, this sensation, this solidness. When you feel the solidness it is a D.O.-ed (me: seeing it as process?) viewing as a process is different, I am talking about the totality of this sensation. This, you can call it anything, I don’t care. When you hear a sound, it is not this sensation right? Totally different right? When the mind, body, and what is totally gone, transcended (?) in anatta, this sound and this different (?) scenery, is different. This arising breathe sensation and this (?) is it the same?

Me: (…)

John: No, but that is intellectual. What I want you to experience is the total sensation. What you said is correct. Like for example, in anatta experience, there is just thought, there is just this. one can go into two ways: one way is dzogchen way, everything is empty, cannot be found/located, nothing inherent, self-liberated.

The other thing you have (keep on asking me?) what is the experience of maha, the total exertion. So I’m telling you this entire activity of total hardness is the entire activity, dependently originate, total exertion. (?) When you hear sound, there is only sound. But (?) and this sound is different from this sensation. You cannot only say, you must experience the full and totality of this experience is different from sound, and your thoughts. Understand? For example you talk about earth, solidness, (?) and the breath, this entire breath, this entire sensation of breath and when you hear a piece of music and this totality of this sensation of hardness is all different. Correct? In the experience of anatta you do not transcend yourself into this entire activity.

Me: (…)

John: What I’m saying is, what is this sensation? Means the totality of feeling this sensation. Now u have access, but the perfection of this thing (?) totality of this sensation, (?)... continue to experience it. That is what I call, you can clarity of (?) of this experience.

When you penetrate and understand that there is no self, there is no one behind, just one thought, and another thought and another thought, u can directly experience things. Correct or not? You can directly experience things. Therefore lets say for example, how are u going to tell Mr. J the next step? Mr. J is very clear lah, very clear. For example he said oh im suffering, but there is no one suffering, just suffering. so the entire suffering has equal taste. u can feel it, u're happy, u're not suffering. ... ... u can feel it but u do not liberate. .... people say awareness is the space behind, the one that is behind, you know its wrong. But if you think that there is no need to do anything, ... there is no unconditioned awareness, only conditioned experiences, right? so you say, there is difference between everything is awareness, and awareness is only everything. so u see there is no remainder. But this is only recognition of what is awareness. u no longer get tricked into the unaffected background self. After this recognition what r u supposed to do?

Lets say for example you have forgotten yourself completely. (?) Mr. J is saying that if I do not have the idea of self and separation, it is (?) liberated already. He is saying if there is totally no self projecting, non dual already, even if he feels pain and suffering, there is no suffering. Why? Then you (?) but your (?) experience is like that right? Why?

(Says he did not expect so many people to come, and his intention of meeting me is to ask me these questions)

…in primordial suchness, in theravada, five aggregates (transforms) to eighteen dhatus, you are very clear lah.... (?)… another question. in this case there cannot be mental formation right... for the five aggregates that has transformed into the eighteen dhatus. Correct? So this is the understanding currently that you should be liberated, right? Currently, roughly your understanding is like this. When you realize anatta, what is nirvana to you? It is the transformation of these (five skandhas), eliminating the [mental] formations, to become the eighteen dhatus, correct? You should be very clear about this now, right? Now, what happens if you continue to have views (?) you continue to have thought? Does it mean you cannot have (?) Malcolm says no, you cannot have, right? (Update 2024: Malcolm's latest view is that Dzogchen agrees with Tsongkhapa that Buddha has conceptual thoughts but are free from grasping, a seeming change of view from a decade ago)

…currently your understanding of the perfection of (anatta?) is to transform it into the eighteen dhatus. With your current understanding, is this necessary? In order to gain true liberation. You must be very very clear. Is it necessary? So that in hearing just sound, u cannot have any other conceptual thought right? when you hear sound right? thats why i say ... is it possible to have this uninterrupted, and is this necessary? This is what I am trying to tell you, you must understand whether it is necessary or not. I cannot tell u its not necessary lah, its impossible, etc. ... currently after you experience anatta, you see ur experience there is no such problem, then you say i have to be like that, total transformation (of five skandhas into eighteen dhatus), anatta non-conceptuality not advaita non conceptuality, the question I ask is, is this necessary, that’s why I tell you to take out (the misleading posts I made)... so is this necessary or not? to me, it is not necessary. it is not necessary then what must u do?

it is not necessary to be non conceptual. but there is two things that you must understand. If you see that behind there is nothing, there is only thought, and when you think that thought itself, its empty, it liberates. You must have these two experiences, it will liberate. So you don’t have to be non-conceptual – when a thought arises and you look behind, there is nobody. when u look at thought itself, it is empty, (and self-liberates?). so u dun have to remain (?) non conceptual. that is what you have to practice now... the twofold emptiness. means i dont want u to always think u have to be non conceptual. dont have to maintain the non ...

me: in fact it is not possible especially when are are at work, etc

John: u cant. ur practice shld be to look behind there is nothing, ?? when u look into the nature of thought itself, its empty, ? the empty nature of whatever arises (self liberates?)

in anatta your experience becomes clear and vivid and then non conceptual. but i do not want u to misunderstand that u have to be non conceptual to get liberated. but malcolm (loppon namdrol) says u have to, right? (Update 2024: Malcolm's latest view is that Dzogchen agrees with Tsongkhapa that Buddha has conceptual thoughts but are free from grasping, a seeming change of view from a decade ago) when u understand anatta, ur experience is already direct, but sometimes when u are doing work its not possible, right? but if u recognise at that moment, behind there is nothing, and u look into the empty nature of whatever arises.. you will release. that is the next step u have to take. this is different from.. so first of all I AM tells u the background. u bring it to the foreground. but this is very blissful, very vivid, samadhi etc, it is blissful but it is not liberating. because to let go itself is not about blissful and vivid. like now you can be very very blissful and vivid but it is not liberating. for liberating u look from behind there is nothing and when u look at the nature of thought it is empty, then it will get released. But in this process of looking, u need (right) view, u need to have a …. Lets say for example my mind is totally transcended when I touch (?) my entire body-mind transcend into that total sensation.

(?)…practice when u see him is just a dependently originated manifestation. ur mind must be able to release. so the view is very important. its very different for example if i were to bring i say this thing, its very clear, very very clear. That is the experience of anatta. but if i say that this taste itself, if i do not have a body, ? and everything, this sensation, the totality of this sensation cannot inherently exist, right? it is a dependently originated manifestation. does it bring about a release, to u? (no?) until you understand that u look at something they dependently originates, (?) by understanding that that u will release urself... (?) like for example, u look at a rainbow, it his looks real, but it is not real, it is nothing substantial. so this entire understanding, this view itself is releasing. longer and longer when u see things, ur mind releases and it becomes boundless. That is the practice you must know and practice. (?)

you think that this is very very real, just like people experience that I AM – it is so vivid, it is so real, just I----- so real! But its just a state, a dependently originated state. Its so real, nobody can deny the I AM, but it is just a dependently originated experience. so this experience is so real, so solid but it is a dependent originated (?). so ur mind realizing that, release releases. You have to practice.

Like for example, this money I got it ah, (fa da?) already ah, and you say ah, money is (?) don’t think too much about it, right, then your mind releases. For example, no matter how you tell right, money is still very important what, definitely very important lah, so ur mind cannot be release. What im saying is that can u see the empty nature of whatever arises, ur mind is released. it must go into u. just like u can tell people anatta anatta, yet they cannot feel that its so clear, so bright, so like that ? when u talk about emptiness, can u find that it is releasing? No point talking you see. u must understand it, and then u realize it, then ur mind releases. That is called groundless ground, the mind becomes groundless, because every experience is empty, every experience is a dependently originated manifestation. If you truly see the empty nature then your every experience must be releasing what. so can u see that by penetrating the empty nature of whatever arises, it releases holding, ground, ? ur mind must be like ? anatta, sound is very very clear, very vivid. ? when u look into this sound, its empty. ur mind releases itself. So if u do not find that it releases, that means ur gong li (skill) is not enough. therefore u cannot say that u dont need the view. when u keep on saying, u dont understand, but there are some ppl like those lamas, when they say its different, their mind is liberated. ... seeing the empty nature of whatever arises, your mind liberates. … emotion, when u realise emotion, you look for behind, and then you look at the nature of emotion, your mind releases itself. (?) so there is three different parts. So I say for example, it is very vivid, very clear. The other one is total exertion. The third thing is it liberates (?), the three experiences that I told you lah. That you must experience it, then you talk about that.

(to truth), don’t think too much about money. Don’t stress too much in human life. You see when we are young, we fear many things, but when we walk towards the end we realize that life don’t have to be so full of anxieties, so (?). Because you keep thinking (?) about your future. And ur boss also give you many targets etc, you must have the way to (…) … you must know how to face it. This you cannot meet the target, how you face it? Don’t be too attached, otherwise your stress is very great, ...

Mr. C ask: just now u said about the emptiness, the nothingness,

John: no, nothingness is not emptiness. Emptiness means for example, whatever things that u see, does not have something with substantial core,

Mr. C: i saw it, but after a while the view is (turned?), then it becomes everything. so i dunnu ... after emptiness there is the view that is just "everything", totally different from emptiness. Like for example when I see you, I see that you are just Me, don’t know how to explain. When i see the sky, the clouds, its like part of my body (?)

John: dzogchen calls that ur nature. i call that ur essence, that is luminosity. Luminosity at the most complete level, the self is forgotten, when self is forgotten, whatever u experience is just that thing. but this can be a form of what we call an experience. but when a person arises the insight and penetrates clearly and see, that bond will be gone... and actually, fully and completely luminous. Then you don’t need to (?) there is always ? like now?, it is an insight, a total shift of perception.

When a person sees so clearly (by insight), one will surely enter a time 60-90 days, then suddenly its (comes back ?). when I first saw it, I understood very very clearly. But he (referring to me) is unique, his is after dunnu how many months it becomes (effortless). For me, after a few years I still cannot. then one day i see someone playing basketball, i closed my eye, i hear the sound of basketball, then he bounce the ball bum bum bum, then suddenly the body mind just drop. then when he bounce the basketball it feels like its my heart beat. thats (?). there’s only that sound. bum bum bum. then when they open the door, the whole vibration... when the mrt goes through... (sound) vrooom, only that sound. then i wondered, why just now i cannot enter, then suddenly i have such complete perfect experience, what is the difference? Why just now can, now cannot, then now can, just now cannot? what is disturbing the clarity? so i go through mentally the past experience. i saw someone playing basketball, i kept seeing, then i closed my eyes, only the sound, then mind body drop, then only the sound, the ball sound hitting the ground is like hitting me, that feeling, thats the experience of anatta. the 'ping pong' sound is like beating you. That time I suddenly entered into the experience of no mind, while anatta has a penetrating insight where the bond is released. (?) from just now, then suddenly the experience, the main ? what is the cause, what is the primary cause, for this entire experience to arise. i kept asking. Why this happens? then i understood that experience is not the same as insight. so u can have the experience, then the penetrating insight that sees through clearly that (?). experience is not insight. when insight comes then you will know, then it becomes natural. Insight into anatta is the realization that there is no self. What that is being described like you said, is an experience. but once u penetrate the insight then this is the experience. going further, after u see no self, then why do u (?) understand dependent origination? how this experience of total exertion,  (?) relates with ur view. (to me) now u shld have such experiences intermittently, mini ones. It will always come and then (?). until one day, that bond itself is totally gone. the idea that there is no self, the penetrating insight, it has the anatta experience does not necessarily mean that u have not (?) this bond of dependency, to understand independent of ? is also (?). therefore this feeling of total exertion never (comes about)? i realize there is the experience, when I hear the basketball, so I realize that there is an experience, and there is the penetrating insight that u see clearly then the experience becomes normal. but the penetrating insight (of anatta) itself does not include deep total exertion. (theres) some other experience, some other kind of insight that u have to penetrate. the bond is still there. that is why u come to phase 6. .. the hindrance.. like anatta experience, very normal.

Why sometimes for example you, like now, after anatta insight your experience becomes very clear right? But you are only getting very mini, like mini, like suddenly you become total activity, sometimes? On and off right? Why? So this tells us that there is this bond that you have not penetrated. I’m also the same until few years ago, I told you right, it is like that one. You have to penetrate through insight, then you see, then the experience of total exertion will come. Understand? This is not saying this state is higher or what. This bond (?) (there is no strict linear way) how it happens first. (Just that) When you release this bond, this experience will come. So the other two is (?) whatever arises, releases you. These are the three experiences that the entire (?) and the realization of it is important. It is not saying you see emptiness then it is higher than total exertion and if you see total exertion it is higher than anatta. It is seeing this bond (?) and clearly (?) so that you cannot understand. This bond to consciousness is the most important thing. Means that consciousness is like a kind of (?) hypnotism.

Do you know there is this person that does mind reading (?). He ask someone to look at three cards - a circle, a triangle, and a square. And that person sees, and he says u see this by urself these three cards right? What are they? The person replies – a circle (?), a rectangle, and a square. And he says are you very very sure? Yes I’m very sure! And he shows the three cards, and (?) eh? Its impossible (?) it was a rectangle

So consciousness is like that. It is just like when you conceive duality, subject and object, you will have no way of breaking through. It is like when someone plant a (?) inside, you cannot break through. It is a magical spell. You are unable to penetrate. ignorance itself implies deep, ignorance implies something that is very very deep. That has always been like that. Understand? So it takes many many years, just to break this simple little thing that is ? ignorance. It is just like this only. It is like me asking Mr. J, despite his 30 years of practice and he said it is nothing new, and yet it is something very very valuable. It is 30 years! Life has how many 30 years? To consciousness, that is the most important thing. You understand?

Mr. C: (?)… empty (…for a week?) then after that it’s just everything. …(? I am nothing?) then after that I am everything, I see that everything is perfect. It is a very crazy insight that everything is perfect. I don’t know how to describe.

John: I had an experience when I was 17. That time when I experienced the I AMness, then I AM Everything. At that time I very much wanted to become a monk. When I first experienced, it lasted for many days, not just (hours?) Then when it rained, I suddenly strip off all my clothes, then I go out and get drenched, and kept laughing and smiling. Because I think I am everything – I like being (dripped) by the rain. Then I thought, if there is a waterfall, I can just sit there and how nice that will be! Then I saw a dog, I really wanted to go and touch it. That was when I was 17 years old, suddenly I had this ? intoxicated. So when the bond of the consciousness is being released, (?). Then when I meditate, you will not believe the kind of bliss that I undergo. That kind of intoxication, it is just like taking drugs. For example (?) you practice vipassana, you feel every sensation, your feet touches the ground, you feel very deeply, it will come to one day you will start lucid dreaming. Like I said, I squat down, I feel the (?) very clear, so clear, I touch the floor, I can feel the entire sensation. Very real. When you practice, especially after anatta, then in this lucid dream I can pass through the wall, then I can feel the entire electric (?), then I saw a ghost I started running, then I wondered why am I afraid of it, so I just stood there and kept staring at it, I open myself and welcome it, and I can feel his sensation. (?) Vipassana. So when you practice, like him (me/Soh), everybody has different experiences. But these are just passing experiences. Like him (me/Soh), he dreamt of going up the lift, (?) but these are passing experiences. Not to be too attached.

When I lucid dream, also got a lot of people teaching me things. But I said before. Someone pushed me upwards, then the Yama said “You have not overcome death.” Then when I woke up I searched the internet, as I don’t know what is Yama? I also had many other experiences. For example I am stepping on a golden cloud, I saw the monk, the whole body is emanating golden light, then he was about to teach me, I am like very formidable, I just sat there on a golden cloud. I stared at him, then I meditated and my entire body disappears. Suddenly there is just darkness, everything becomes very silent in my dream, then the ‘I’ image completely releases and disappears. Just like you (referring to me), the state of blissful and non-dual state before waking up. Then I can meditate a few days also like that. So don’t need to be attached to these experiences. These experiences are endless. Because you have practiced before. Like I said to him (me/Soh), don’t be attached to these experiences. These are (?) a form of tendencies. But through my practice I will have many of these experiences.

Mr. C: But the problem is I never practice, hahaha