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Mr. RDT shared a link.
A take on Bahiya Sutta by Ajahn Brahm. Apart from commenting on the instruction given to Bahiya AB provides more context to the story recounted in the sutta and talks about obstacles to realising its meaning (basically lack of sufficient samatha training). What do you guys think of it?
40 Comments
Yin Ling
Admin
Watched this before.
Love the background story.
But AB has always been a big jhana advocate bec of his own background 
he has always been “no jhana no awakening” person.
he has always been “no jhana no awakening” person. But
a lot of ppl’s experience in this group shown that it is not really the
case. We cannot ignore the evidence, that is my opinion
Agata Hae In
Yin Ling The samadhis described by chan master Hsu Yun in his autobiography seem to fit the profile though.
Agata Hae In
He
was one of the last great masters of mainland China, tortured during
war at the age over 100 and famous for 11 days long hard samadhi
episodes. He was interrogated while being attacked, but sat in the
meditation posture to enter the state of dhyana. As the blows
rained down mercilessly, he closed his eyes and mouth and
seemed to be in the state of samadhi. That day they beat him
brutally four times and, finally, they threw him to the ground.
Seeing that he was badly hurt, they thought he was dead and left
the room. A little later the guards also left and the Master’s
attendants
carried him to a bed and helped him sit in the meditation. On the fifth
day, when they heard that the Master was still alive,
they came again; and seeing that he was sitting in the meditation
posture as before, they were furiously angry and stuck him with
wooden sticks. Dragging him to the ground, they kicked and
trampled on him with their heavy leather boots. As he lay there
with blood streaming from his head, they thought he was dead,
laughed brutally, and left. At night, his attendants again carried
him to the bed and helped him to sit in the meditation posture.
On the tenth day, early in the morning, he slowly reclined on his
right side (in a position similar to that of the Buddha at his
Parinirvana). As he was motionless for a whole day and night, his
attendant took a lamp-wick and held it close to his nostrils; he
was found to be breathless and was thought to have died.
However, the Master’s mien was fresh as usual and his body was
still warm. His attendants, Fa-yun and Kuan-shan, kept watch by
his bedside.
Early in the morning of the eleventh, the Master was heard to
groan feebly. His attendants helped him sit up and told him how
long he had sat in dhyana and lain on the bed. Slowly, the Master
said: ‘I thought it was just a few minutes.’ He then said to Fa-yun:
‘Take a pen and write down what I dictate, but don’t’ show the
notes to outsiders lest they blaspheme."
Cheng Chen
Yin Ling虚云 taught Xuan Hua, who went to the US and founded the ten thousand buddhas compound in California.
Xuan Hua then donated a significant chunk of land to Ajahn Sumedho to found Abhayagiri monastery.
Sumedho
and Brahm were both students of Ajahn Chah. Though there was some
recent schism involving ordaining women into the Thai Theravada
tradition or something like that.
Ng Xin Zhao
Cheng Chen
technically not a schism. To be a schism, there must be 3 other monks
on ajahn brahm's side and the2 groups chant the patimokkha separately in
the same sima boundaries at the same time.
It
is just that ajahn chah's lineage is from thailand, and the law of the
land is no bhikkuni revival. Ajahn brahm did the revival in Australia,
while being a branch temple of ajahn chah. So they just removed the
branch temple thing to not conflict with the thai origins of the ajahn
chah franchise. Ajahn brahm is his own franchise now.
Cheng Chen
Ng Xin Zhao
back in my day, we schism’d whenever we wanted to - no chanting needed,
just some guns and supplies. Things are so complicated nowadays… Maybe
better to just sit.
Mr. RDT
Author
Ling Yin isn't first jhana (out of all 
not that big of a deal? It requires just basic meditative training.
not that big of a deal? It requires just basic meditative training.Also
Acarya Malcolm Smith has explained at some point that attaining it in
concordance with the 5 factors is a minimum of shine (samatha) that a
practitioner of Dzogchen has to achieve as a prerequisite for effective
Dzogchen Atiyoga practice. This seems to match nicely.
Mr. RDT
Author
Beyond
that Malcolm said that one doesn't really need to work on higher jhanas
beyond that and they will happen anyway as a by product of Dzogchen
training.
Now
Id argue even the first arupajhana is actually quite common with
Dzogchen practice as there are many exercises in Atiyoga that deal with
resting in limitless space.
Mr. RDT
Author
Yin Ling
good you bring this up, Im that familiar with AB's work but I had vague
idea that it might be so. I think the proponents of the arahat path
generally have a "hard approach" when it comes to censoring out the
sense stimuli. I think this has precisely to do with the way they are so
much into renouncing: eradicating klesas by stilling the mind (not
exactly substituting them with positive states of mind like in the
Mahayana approach), eliminating distractors by ideally leading life of
ascetic monkhood (while Mahayana has the room for lay awakening like in
the example of Vimalakirti).
Mr. RDT
Author
Yin Ling
I think it is ok for him to say that in the context of his path.
Basically he teaches a path to arhathood and not Mahayana style approach
so at some point his teachings won't be suitable to people with
Mahayana inclinations like us and generally to people wanting to achieve
while leading householder's life.
I
mean among non-mahayanists the debate is whether you have to leave your
home behind in order to become an arhat or you just automatically leave
it behind upon reaching arhathood. This is telling IMO.
So as a Theravadin his job is to be hardcore about the tenets of his system and ours is to provide alternatives I guess 
Mr. RDT
Author
Yin Ling
I hear ya. On the other hand we could turn this around and say that
Bahiya Sutta is so central to the path of liberation that we can have
many conversations about pretty much everything in relation to Bahiya
Sutta. Including Jhana. So this could be changed grom the matter of
being drowned it to be revolved around 
Yin Ling
Admin
I am hugely influenced by AB when I was young and at one point Nearly gave up the path .. so I have my own opinions
I’m
thankful for whatever good karma in my past lives, I met a teacher who
trained me differently and believe I have what it takes and it turn out I
am very insight inclined. Insight happen to me rapidly. Not jhana. It
is like the 4 persons in what soh posted.
I was thinking what if another person does not have the opportunity to meet with a teacher who is as discerning as mine?
Bec
samsara is such a serious matter for me, I am honest when it comes to
opinion about practise even though it might make me seem disrespectful
and arrogant. If it helps someone, then maybe a person could get out of
cyclic existence
Mr. RDT
Author
Im
of the opinion that if one realises the meaning of Bahiya Sutta then
one also unlocks meditative experience of the first formless absorption
(1st arupajhana) limitless space jhana. My reasoning:
-
according to Abhidharma in the basic vehicle one reaches stream entry
by eradicating the false view of self (basically realising what youre
pointing to Ling Yin) and then goes on to practising jhanas as an antidote to kleshas
-
Anatta leads to loosing the center, and characteristic peak experience
associated with it includes no center and no boundaries (basically
limitless space).
Not
only that but Id corellate progressive stages of meditating on
emptiness set out by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche with consecutive levels
of arupajhanas (with the crucial distinction that stages by KTGR are
vipassana and arupajhanas are only samatha!).
After the 1st stage of KTGR's model it would go like this (looking at the names it looks self-explanatory 
):
): 2nd stage of Cittamatra/Vijnanavada, consciousness only - 2nd arupajhana of limitless consciousness;
3rd
stage of Svatantrika of finding no thing in phenomena, lack of
phenomena's intrinsic existence - 3rd jhana of nothingness/cessation of
perception;
4th stage of
Prasangika of arriving at nonconceptuality beyond the extremes of
existence and nonexistence - 4th arupajhana of neither existence nor
nonexistence also called nonconceptual or neither perception nor
nonperception
Now
it is a point of contention whether one accessing arupajhana receives
any sensory input (originally debate revolved around the sense of
hearing but arguably beacuse being still in meditation with eye-closed
samatha limits the input from other senses in itself).
Id
take the stance that one can have the sensory input while in formless
jhana. It has to do with my Dzogchen bias (in Dzogchen meditating with
eyes open and integrating the senses is strongly encouraged).
Now Im not a jhana expert so I wonder if Tommy McNally , who seems to be more familiar with jhana practice, could weight in on all of that.
Tommy McNally
Mr. RDT I'm not sure if I can add anything useful to the conversation, to be honest.
I
don't believe that so-called "hard jhana" is necessary, or even
desirable. Temporary suppression of the hindrances is one thing, but
unless we're hacking at their roots with the machete of vipassana then
we're just playing with fabrications.
Right
Concentration seems to me to be the five jhanic factors and nothing
more complicated than that. As Malcolm suggests, the other jhanas will
happen anyway with strong practice, but the one-pointedness seems to be
the biggest thing to master with samatha.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. RDT I don't think anatta realisation must necessarily unlock the jhanas as defined by Buddha.
Even
an arahant with ten fetters eliminated may not have access to formless
jhanas, let alone a stream enterer who has just newly realised anatta
and conditionality*.
* " Hi Zom & all,
All
four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the
four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235)
lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind
(adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the
faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble
disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as
the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble
disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii
87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless
attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60
are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless
attainments).
Also, in
the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form
sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna
(arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna
(lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand,
supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five
by dividing the first jhāna into two).
In
none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the
cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right
concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your
equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is
unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without
ever experiencing the cessation attainment.
All the best,
Geoff"
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Meaning of Nirvana
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Also
Geoff's PDF Measureless Mind is a must read, John Tan told me to put it
to the top of the list which I agree - very well presented.
APP.BOX.COM
Box
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. RDT
At most we can say there are likeness to jhanas but it may not
necessarily be the jhana state itself. The Buddha also said the jhanas
has some likeness to nibbana (can't remember which sutta but I think he
said this)
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Malcolm and general teaching disagrees with AB definition of jhana (aka hard jhana)
“According
to my sources in the Kenjur and Tenjur, the only senses that cease
operation in the first dhyāna are smell and taste. Sight, hearing, and
tactile sensation remain active.”
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu
no doubt AB is a great practitioner and surely has deep jhana training
in his past lives for him to enter jhanas easily hence he teach from his
way..
Not
knowing a huge group of population does not have that skills. It can be
demoralising. I was one of them hence I say this. Not to disrespect AB.
He is a great practitioner monk. But for ppl to know that those hard
jhanas definition is not general teaching
Which I have read enough to know.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Yes
Also
He dunno how to discern different capacities and teach different ways:
The Buddha teaches:
These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?
There
is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of
awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened
discernment. There is... the individual who has attained insight into
phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility
of awareness. There is... the individual who has attained neither
internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through
heightened discernment. And there is... the individual who has attained
both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena
through heightened discernment.
The
individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not
insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach
an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened
discernment... and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How
should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The
other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced:
'Fabrications should be regarded in this way... investigated in this
way... seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first]
will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness
& insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
As
for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through
heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness, he
should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquility of
awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should
it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be
concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen &
experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way... made to settle
down in this way... unified in this way... concentrated in this way.'
Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both
internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through
heightened discernment.
As
for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of
awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he
should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquility
of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened
discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should
it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be
concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be
investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will
answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should
be steadied in this way... made to settle down in this way... unified
in this way... concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded
in this way... investigated in this way... seen in this way with
insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has
attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into
phenomena through heightened discernment.
As
for the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of
awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment,
his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same
skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents*.
— AN 4.94
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu I have to agree w u though I know We will get bombed hard. 
he is a famous monk so his words influence millions of ppl.
he is a famous monk so his words influence millions of ppl.Myriad Objects
Soh Wei Yu the “hard jhana” sensory blackout standard is even debated and controversial between different Theravada traditions
there are schools that insist the senses are operating normally, and that samadhi must be paired with mindfulness
I think I recall even seeing some Theravada teachers say firmly established/unshakeable mindfulness = samadhi
(mindfulness of experience as a whole)
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
I
had jhana experiences before i had insights but many didnt and i was
not in jhana when i realised anatta. I was marching while doing “boot
camp” in military and contemplating bahiya sutta.
Also, excerpt from http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../dzogchen-meditation...
“Re: Is first dhyāna necessary for the first bhūmi?
Report Quote
Post Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:37 am
Caoimhghín wrote: ↑
The title says it all. Related: Is first dhyāna necessary for any particular significant degree of Bodhi?
Malcolm:
Nope.”
“Samadhi
is a natural mental factor of one pointedness. People with no
experience, who like to follow books like recipe guides, say such things
as "first dhyāna is absolutely mandatory for the path of seeing." But
then you have to ask them if they have discovered the path of seeing. If
they say no, then obviously they are just going to the basis of what
they have heard or read in a book. If they say yes, there are other
tests you can apply.
In
Mahāyāna, the samadhi part is not perfected until the fifth bhumi. There
is no requirement for the first dhyāna to realize the first bhumi. The
first bhumi merely requires realization of śunyatā. That can come about
as a result of the union of śamatha and vipaśyāna, or it can be arrived
at merely through vipaśyāna. It depends on the person. All that is
really necessary is that aspiring bodhisattva can focus on their
analysis on the emptiness of objects without being distracted, but is
certainly does not mean that they have to first perfect all four or five
factors of the first dhyāna. It won't harm them if they do, but it is
not required.
You should
examine Discerning the Middle from the Extremes, it presents a concise
summary of the five paths and how they are realized in Mahāyāna.
Madhyamaka texts do not discuss this so much, at least, not early ones.”
“That's
what I meant by people who just read books. The only concentration one
needs is to be able to focus on one's analysis without being distracted.
That's it.
If one goes chasing after samadhi, one will waste a lot of time and never realize emptiness, and that is a fact.”
“Below the path of seeing, the dhyānas are just causes for rebirth.”
“Without
vipaśyanā, samādhi is useless——this is why there are three prajñās, not
only one. Meditation just isn't the main point of Buddhadharma. Prajñā
is.”
“Prajñā is not
acquired through samādhi at all. However, śila provides a basis for a
focused mind (samādhi), and a focused mind provides a basis for prajñā.
Prajñā is acquired through hearing (śrutimayāprajñā), reflection (cintamayāprajñā), and cultivation (bhāvanamayīprajñā).
The
dhyānas are not required for this at all. Samādhi is just mental
one-pointedness on a object. For most people, that would be TV, these
days.”
“The only
difference between the samādhi of watching TV and the training of
samādhi in the Dharma is that the former is contaminated, and the latter
is not. But the samādhi, the mental factor, is identical in both cases,
only the object is different. What makes the samādhi part hard is that
it is difficult to shift one's focus from mundane contaminated objects
to mundane uncontaminated objects, such as the path dharmas. Hence, the
need for śila as a basis for samādhi. But this has nothing actually to
do with samādhi itself. Samādhi can be focused wherever one likes. And
in the case of a practitioners, that concentration is focused on Dharma.
It also has nothing developing rarified samadhis, etc. Samādhi here
just means being able to focus the mind at will. Thats it. People keep
turning these things into strange beasts. We avoid things that disturb
our minds (śila), so that we can focus (samādhi) on developing the three
wisdoms. That's it. It's not complicated.
Its better to understand the essence of a thing, rather than pile elaboration on top of elaboration.”
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu
same. I too go through the vipassana jhanas as my mind even though
doing vipassana practise leaned towards the jhanic side of the spectrum,
hence not so “dry”. Vipassana ppl will understand. A lite form of
jhana. Also played with deeper jhanas which took a lot of time and
effort.
But anatta insight which change the whole energy field is not really related to these in out altered consciousness practises.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Also
in fact i have never heard people realise anatta while in jhana but
certainly it is possible (because anatta is really a dharma seal in all
states and is the nature of mind and all dharmas)
If ajahn brahm really realised anatta during jhana he will be the first one (in modern times) i have heard
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu he mentioned “u just collect data during jhana and analyse after”. Coz his jhana is like a stone state.
I
went into this stoned state once and seriously so stoned I don’t know
how one could see clearly anything at all. Everything just frozen . So
I’m not sure how he realise.
I actually went to read 100 plus Theravada books to see what other theravada ppl say about AB jhana few years ago.
Gave me so much headache coz everyone say differnt things .. even ajahn Chah his teacher doesn’t talk about jhana like AB.
Anyway those are in the past lol. Hopefuly those who are not jhana incline don’t give up this path. Like I once wanted to
Mr./Ms. DL
it
was said that buddha was meditating in jhana just before his final
awakening. But of course this could just be heresay. From what i gather
jhanas are useful for sharpening the sword thats cuts through kilesas.
One cannot obtain enlightenment within them as they are still just
phenomena, but after coming out of them insight & fruitions come
easier.
Not to mention the importance of developing the bramaviharas through the jhanas, sometimes overlooked with just self enquiry.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
He definitely was.
He was also recalling aeons of past lives etc.. these things generally happen due to jhana
Mr./Ms. DL
Yes
im curious whats everyones stance here between soft Jhana & hard
Jhana and the sutas versus the vissudimagga? Or pa auk style jhana
practice?
There is much
dispute that during the buddha everyone was achieving jhanas and it was
very easy (soft jhanas)? But then the vissudimagga has different opinion
ie (hard jhana) very few can obtain the higher hard jhanas etc.
Mr. RDT
Author
Ive
mentioned it in one of the subthreads but it seems worthwhile to
reiterate that the matter of sensory perception while in jhanas is one
of the so called points of contention among various early Buddhist
schools.
So this debate goes way, way back it seems lol
Aditya Prasad
To quote Malcolm:
"A
perfect śamatha is nothing more than the first dhyāna, attended by five
mental factors: vitarka, vicara, prithi, sukha and ekagraha. This is a
universal definition.
The
idea that it takes a year to develop this experience is ridiculous. If
you understand what you are doing, you can develop this experience in as
little as a single afternoon.
Since
the mental factors of vitarka and vicara drop off above the first
dhyāna, when one's motivation is to engage in vipaśyāna, it is not
appropriate to cultivate anything more than this."
A
single afternoon seems a little extreme, but there seems to be good
evidence that with a few days of precise training, people can have
sufficient shamatha to have a clear glimpse of I AM and even higher
stages.
DHARMAWHEEL.NET
How important is shamatha, and practices before shamatha - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
A single afternoon sounds about right.
When
I was 14 and practicing anapanasati for the first or second time, maybe
the first time, I entered into a state where my body starts to feel
“numb and stoned” and vanish, and yet simultaneously this very intense
bliss waves pervade my whole body from top to bottom. My whole mind and
body then was blissfully absorbed into an altered state. Was really
sublime and intense and it is quite right when Ajahn Brahm said jhana is
better than sex. Much more blissful and sublime than anything sensual.
My
dharma teacher (at the I AM) phase couldnt recognise what i said
probably because she didnt practice any jhanas at all and purely focused
on the I AM. But when i told john tan online, he told me immediately it
is jhana
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu wow soh u enter jhana first time u sit. Damn impressive, must have practise intensively past lives!
Cheng Chen
Soh Wei Yu very fortunate, you are, to have JT provide guidance at such a young age.
---------------
John Tan said to someone years ago, "Jhanas imo is needed for a start, when the mind is unstable and when concentration isn't strong, it is not easy to see through reification.
Post anatta, practice should be spacious and natural, open and free. Once we recognize the nature of what appears is empty and non-arisen, primordially pure and free from all elaborations, we must mature and stabilize these 2 insights. Gradually, our entire body-mind will be transformed into an oceanic samadhi of rainbow and mirage like spaciousness, not just simply non-dual and transparent vivid radiance."
