Bahiya Sutta must be understood from Realization
[19/5/20, 1:08:25 AM] John Tan: The purpose is actually to trigger about bahiya sutta

[19/5/20, 1:08:57 AM] John Tan: Unfortunately the Chinese sutta may not be able to translate the bahiya sutta properly

[19/5/20, 1:09:38 AM] John Tan: Many translate in the seen just the seen as a form of total concentration into a state of no mind.

[19/5/20, 1:09:55 AM] John Tan: Like vipassana into no mind

[19/5/20, 1:12:52 AM] John Tan: Therefore bahiya sutta can be seen from the perspective of 修 (practice) or can be understood from the perspective of 悟 (realization)。all these depends on the calibre of the person.

[19/5/20, 1:13:51 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Bahiya Sutta in the new Chinese translation of the ‘Small Boat Great Mountain’ by Ajahn Amaro https://cd1.amaravati.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/13/%E5%B0%8F%E8%88%B9%E8%88%87%E5%A4%A7%E5%B1%B1_20161111.pdf





佛說：在所見中，只有所見。在所聞中，只有所聞。在所感中，只有所感。在所知中，只有所知。如此會看到，的確無物在此1；婆醯迦，該如此修習。婆醯迦，你應該依此：在所見中，只有所見。在所聞中，只有所聞。在所感中，只有所感。在所知中，只有所知。如此你會看到，的確無物在這裡；如此，的確無物。什麼都沒有時，您將看到，你不在此處，不在彼處，也不在兩者之間。此即苦的止息2。（自說經1.10）

....



(In the seen, there is only the seen,

in the heard, there is only the heard,

in the sensed, there is only the sensed,

in the cognized, there is only the cognized.

Thus you should see that

indeed there is no thing here;

this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.

Since, Bahiya, there is for you

in the seen, only the seen,

in the heard, only the heard,

in the sensed, only the sensed,

in the cognized, only the cognized,

and you see that there is no thing here,

you will therefore see that

indeed there is no thing there.

As you see that there is no thing there,

you will see that

you are therefore located neither in the world of this,

nor in the world of that,

nor in any place

betwixt the two.

This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)



- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html )

[19/5/20, 1:14:01 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[19/5/20, 1:15:14 AM] John Tan: But it should be understood from the perspective of 悟 (realization)。y?

[19/5/20, 1:18:52 AM] Soh Wei Yu: realization of anatta as dharma seal is different from a state of no mind

[19/5/20, 1:19:36 AM] John Tan: No from the text, y should it be viewed from the perspective of 悟 (realization)？

[19/5/20, 1:20:32 AM] Soh Wei Yu: In seeing, always only the seen, or seeing is none other than seen. No you. This is truth, not training into a state of only the seen

[19/5/20, 1:20:39 AM] John Tan: 如此你會看到，的確無物在這裡；如此，的確無物。什麼都沒有時，您將看到，你不在此處，不在彼處，也不在兩者之間。此即苦的止息2。（自說經1.10）

....

(As you see that there is no thing there,

you will see that

you are therefore located neither in the world of this,

nor in the world of that,

nor in any place

betwixt the two.

This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)



- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html )

[19/5/20, 1:21:11 AM] John Tan: It says therefore u should see this truth.

[19/5/20, 1:21:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[19/5/20, 1:21:57 AM] John Tan: Therefore it is for 悟 (realization)

[19/5/20, 1:23:01 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[19/5/20, 1:23:55 AM] John Tan: This is the purpose of the second and third line

[19/5/20, 1:24:15 AM] John Tan: 深入观行, 婆酰迦经。

了悟经旨, 直指无心。

无执能所, 忘却身心。



(Deeply contemplating, Bahiya Sutta.

Realizing the essence of the sutta, directly pointing to No Mind.

No grasping at subject and object, forgotten mind and body.)

[19/5/20, 1:24:48 AM] John Tan: 如此你會看到，的確無物在這裡；如此，的確無物。什麼都沒有時，您將看到，你不在此處，不在彼處，也不在兩者之間。此即苦的止息2。（自說經1.10）

....

(As you see that there is no thing there,

you will see that

you are therefore located neither in the world of this,

nor in the world of that,

nor in any place



betwixt the two.

This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)



- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html )

[19/5/20, 1:25:23 AM] John Tan: If without the above that, then it can be interpreted as just a state of no mind samadhi.

[19/5/20, 1:25:32 AM] John Tan: There is no insight involved.

[19/5/20, 1:27:42 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ic..

[19/5/20, 1:28:09 AM] John Tan: But it is stated, therefore u will see from in seeing, just the seen, u will realize there is no object here, there is no subject here, no subject there either, nor any in between.

[19/5/20, 1:34:02 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[19/5/20, 1:34:33 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Im glad they recently released that translation and ajahn amaro’s book in chinese. Otherwise cant find a good one that distinguishes that

[19/5/20, 1:34:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I see other chinese explanations of bahiya also more on no mind

[19/5/20, 1:34:59 AM] John Tan: Oh just recently released?

[19/5/20, 1:35:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ajahn amaro’s old book but recently translated to chinese

[19/5/20, 1:35:16 AM] Soh Wei Yu: He also has a new book but in english

[19/5/20, 1:35:28 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Called the breakthrough. He also reiterated bahiya sutta in that




[19/5/20, 1:37:31 AM] John Tan: Most important breakthrough post that is not go into subsuming but into dependent origination and emptiness. Many can still turn into non-dual awareness teaching.

[19/5/20, 1:37:59 AM] John Tan: Or one can move into [total] exertion and emptiness like dogen...

[19/5/20, 1:38:11 AM] John Tan: Like 洪文亮 (Zen Master Hong Wen Liang)

Labels: Anatta, Buddha |

....

Also related: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/anatta-is-dharma-seal-or-truth-that-is.html

Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
Wrote in 2018：



"If someone talks about an experience he/she had and then lost it, that's not (the true, deep) awakening... As many teachers put it, it's the great samadhi without entry and exit.

John Tan: There is no entry and exit. Especially for no-self. Why is there no entry and exit?
Me (Soh): Anatta (no-self) is always so, not a stage to attain. So it's about realisation and shift of perception.
John Tan: Yes 👍


As John also used to say to someone else, "Insight that 'anatta' is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless' mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always been so, no I. In seeing, always only seen, in hearing always only sound and in thinking, always only thoughts. No effort required and never was there an 'I'.""

Also：


Differentiate Wisdom from Art


Replying to someone in Rinzai Zen discussion group, John Tan wrote recently:


“I think we have to differentiate wisdom from an art or a state of mind.
In Master Sheng Yen’s death poem,

Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)

This "Originally there never was any 'I'" is wisdom and the dharma seal of anatta. It is neither an art like an artist in zone where self is dissolved into the flow of action nor is it a state to be achieved in the case of the taoist "坐忘" (sit and forget) -- a state of no-mind.

For example in cooking, there is no self that cooks, only the activity of cooking. The hands moves, the utensils act, the water boils, the potatoes peel and the universe sings together in the act of cooking. Whether one appears clumsy or smooth in act of cooking doesn't matter and when the dishes r out, they may still taste horrible; still there never was any "I" in any moment of the activity. There is no entry or exit point in the wisdom of anatta.”
Labels: Anatta, Zen Master Sheng-yen 1 comments | |



Soh wrote in 2007 based on what John Tan wrote:


First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically.



John Tan adds: "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."


Labels: Anatta |