Ryan: “interesting I thought AtR emphasizes non-arising?  the perception that objects are not actually present at all”

Soh to Ryan Burton:

Atr / john tan emphasizes +a and -a (as described in the shorter atr practice guide and longer original atr guide)

John Tan said years ago:

“No appearances just mean the conceptual notions of mind, appearances and external objects are all deconstructed.

It doesn't mean a blank nothing.

Vivid Appearances will unfailingly manifest, that is what Mipham meant by coalescence of appearance and emptiness.

From the perspective of mind (alaya), negation is non-affirming and thorough.

From the non-conceptual gnosis standpoint, nothing is obstructed nor denied.

What appears is unconditioned, spontaneous, natural and beyond elaborations.

…

From ATR perspective that is -A. But it is also +A. 

For both shares similar taste if no-self nature is the focus instead of conceptualities.

Therefore study both masters Mipham and Tsongkhapa with respect and reverence and don't talk nonsense.

If there is alternation between +A and -A, that is arya along the path.  If there is no alternation, that is buddhahood.

That is just my opinion.”

——

Ryan burton said

“Soh Wei Yu how would you describe non-arising experientially?  

the blending of A+ and A- minus emptiness when I’ve done the contemplations opens a natural state of phenomena being immense, immediate but also transparent holographic-like.  As if what’s arising is not actually there or present at all.”

Soh replied

“Designations Turn Alive

John Tan said,

When Dogen rows the boat, the rowing makes the boat a boat and makes the hand, the sea, wooden oars and the movement of the boat into the "rowing". The designations turns "alive" yet r like mere reflections.

Why is it like water pouring in water? Because one tastes the hand, the sea, the wooden oars going beyond their designated boundaries into one seamless (like pour water in water) action of rowing. There is no self, only that action of rowing.

With anatta and dependent arising, u will feel immense inter-relatedness yet empty like reflections even in the world of conceptualities.

The father is dependent on the son and the son makes the father a father. Don't just look at the logic, see how much emotions and love are invested in them. There are no "things" and "world" other than that.

So it is not about just that which is direct, clean, brilliance, non-dual, non-conceptual and transparent which is empty like space; u must re-enter the world, dirty ur hands and see conventionalities with this new found insights of selflessness and DO...see the whole chain of arisings...so intricate yet empty like reflections.

André A. Pais: John Tan, good stuff! Is there more from where this came? 

John Tan: Hi André, some blah blah blah on the spur of the moment when Soh was discussing with me total exertion and emptiness. Intuitively I was sensing him skewing towards empty reflection in non-referential presence while attempting to integrate emptiness and total exertion at that time.

So just brought out this “dependent designation” as it can serve as a bridge to link the two (empty reflection and total exertion).

Sometimes we can latched on to the so called higher teachings of “already perfection”, “emptiness”, “no karma”, “no this and that” and subtly hypnotizing ourselves into a fabricated liberated state. This is precisely the question dogen had in mind, if we are already enlightened, why practice? If we have buddha-nature, why attain enlightenment? These questions set him on a journey to china in search of the answer. He came back with “practice-enlightenment”, we do not practice to get enlightened, we practice because we are enlightened – practice-enlightenment.

Therefore my intention is simply trying to bring out the point of not being afraid of self, not being afraid of cause and effect and dependencies, look directly into the world of samsara, look into the world of conventionalities and see the beauty of conceptualities. Even in market place, the taste of non-referential presence is never lost but fully present!

For articles about dogen and total exertion, I would recommend Ted Biringer. Ted has a unique way of triggering one into the taste of total exertion through seeing dependencies with his writings. As for write ups integrating emptiness, dependent designations and total exertion into a piece, I don’t think there is any…haha”

“.....

The weight of thoughts -- Part 1

When contemplating, do not just let our contemplation remain as a mental reasoning exercise.  For example: 

What appears is neither "internal" nor "external". For the notion of "internality" is dependent on the notion of "externality", without either, the sense of neither can arise.  Therefore both notions r merely conventional, they originates dependently.

Do not just let our contemplation remain at this level. If we do that, at most the freedom will simply remain at the mental level -- merely a pellucid, pure and clean state.  It is no different from practicing raw attention although insight on how conceptualities proliferate the mind may arise. 

But go further to relate directly to our sensations, thoughts, smells, colors, tastes, sounds and ask: 

"What do we mean by thoughts are neither inside nor outside our head?" 

Seeing through this will be much more penetrating.  It will bring a deep sense of illusoriness and mystical awe as a real-time lived-experience.

.....

The weight of thoughts -- Part 2

How heavy are thoughts?

Where are their roots? 

It is not uncommon to hear in the spiritual circle phrases like "the 'I' is just a thought" or "thought is empty and spacious, there is no weight or root to it". 

While the rootlessness and the space-like nature of "thoughts" should be pointed out, one must not be misled into thinking they have seen through "anything" much less up-rooted the deeply seated conceptual notions of "I/mine", "body/mind", "space/time"...etc. 

So emphasis must also be placed on the other side of the coin. "Thoughts" are astonishingly heavy like a black-hole (size of a pinhole, weight of a star); the roots of conceptual notions" they carry permeate our entire being and everywhere. 

The "roots" of thoughts are no where to be found also means they can be found anywhere and everywhere, spreaded across the 3 times and 10 directions -- in modern context, over different time-lines across the multiverse.  In other words, "this arises, that arises".

.....

In anatta, we see through self as a mental construct and one is set on a de-constructive journey to free oneself from all mental constructs, from self to all phenomena and the relationships among them.

However when we see dependent arising, nothing is eliminated.

Conceptualization remains, parts remain, cause-effect remains, self remains, others remains...Everything remains, only the mistaken view of "essence" is relinquished.

Instead of seeing them to exist essentially, it is now understood that they originates dependently and whatever originates in dependence is free from the four pairs of extremes (aka 8 negations of Nagarjuna).

Without understanding dependent arising and emptiness, spontaneous perfection free from all elaborations will be distorted.”

“Some stuff i wrote before:

Earlier today i was awoken by a sound.. then it was intuited the sound is not something somewhere, has no location, no origin, no coming and no going, mere dependent origination

When looking at seaside sea waves it occurs to me the sea waves was also a good example of dependent origination

Under imputation it appears sea waves are one thing that moves from one location to another (ultimately the sea shore). When seen carefully the sea wave is not actually one thing but actually countless of tiny waves and each moment of if the waving the patterns look entirely different. So one moment of wave and next moment of wave are neither the same not different but dependently originates. Every moment of waving is merely the dependent origination of all factors and consciousness dependently originating as the mere luminous appearance without anything there, no coming, no going, no arising, no abiding and no cessation

John tan replied, “Quite good.  Dependent arising is to help us overcome essense view.  We don't really understand what freedom from "essence", normally weq use essential view to understand what is non-essential.  When we keep practicing seeing emptiness and DO, everything turns insubstantial, essenceless without substance, intimate and seamless...from there on, u should quit "thinking" but learn to "feel" and sense directly and effortlessly. Taste radiance as appearances and no more "analyse" about it.

The language that structures  into subject-action-object is a clumsy and not a suitable way to express radiance, but that doesn't mean there is no way to express at all, it is just imo complex.  Like I told u before, mathematics is also a form of language that can allow us to understand patterns in a much deeper and flexible way.  But if one is untrained, it is difficult to communicate in that form of language or communicate like dogen.

Radiance is so mystical and magical, don't frame it with anything.  Once anatta matures, use ur entire body-mind to feel it's dynamism.”

—-

(Inherent view) Its the sense that phenomena exists, arise and abide and cease and stands alone by itself. Like for example moon exist inside water or even just that the presence is something “just there”.. instead of the vivid appearance is empty and non arisen, a mere vivid shimmering that dependently originates, appears but nothing there, a vivid and luminous mirage. Even a minutest sense of something there blocks the vision of dependent origination and emptiness, union of appearance and emptiness . We feel the trees and flowers and sky are “just there” instead of like reflections in total exertion

….

Actually nowadays in practice i dont really have much designations or referents.. its oceanic and boundless whether in sitting or movement. In a sense its similar to infinitude of universe like AF except there is no solidity.. its just dependent origination and emptiness in action like when you move the whole infinite net of indra reflects accordingly. The dependent origination its not like inherent cause and effect.. In moving its not like body interacting with environment but like infinite reflections in total exertion, like the whole universe is the movement not i moving. When sitting there is no me or body mind sitting like out of body into boundless and oceanic but there is no sense of a self expanding outward, just natural and spontaneous presence like whole universe is sitting. Gapless distanceless without boundaries and radiant but nothing there.. no seer, no seeing, nothing seen and also no universe to ground in.. i dunno if im skewing to radiance but i seldom engage in analysis nowadays. Or its good for me to do more analysis

——

John tan also wrote:

“Ic.  Next time just total exertion of whole immense arising and empty...see can 相应”

John tan wrote many comments but too long to post”