Session Start: Sunday, August 27, 2006

(12:12 PM) John: Read ur email about the ken wilber page 250.

(12:12 PM) AEN: ok wait

(12:13 PM) AEN: icic

(12:13 PM) John: fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self (comments by Soh: actually as clarified later, it is more of substantialist nondual but not yet anatta realization) and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness.

(12:13 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:14 PM) John: to date, ken wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description.  (Note by Soh: However, Ken Wilber's understanding is still more of Stage 4 nondual, not yet anatta and emptiness as John Tan later clarified)

(12:14 PM) John: it is from fulcrum 9-10

(12:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:15 PM) John: except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming and dreamless is what i told u should not be followed.

(12:15 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:15 PM) John: let's take longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do u think i am leading him?

(12:16 PM) AEN: emptienss?  

(12:16 PM) AEN: no-self and emptiness

(12:16 PM) AEN: lol

(12:16 PM) John: yes

(12:16 PM) John: so where was he when he first communicated with u?

(12:16 PM) AEN: i nterms of falcrum?  

(12:17 PM) John: yeah

(12:17 PM) AEN: falcrum 9-1?

(12:17 PM) John: yes

(12:17 PM) John: did he go through 7 and 8?

(12:17 PM) AEN: no

(12:18 PM) John: okie then how is one to experience fulcrum 9?  That is what i disagree. :)

(12:18 PM) John: in fact true enlightenment should only start at 9.

(12:18 PM) John: and a glimpse of our nature starts at 9.

(12:18 PM) AEN: oic

(12:19 PM) AEN: u mean he said otherwise?

(12:19 PM) John: 7 can be the result of mindfulness

(12:19 PM) AEN: which page is 7

(12:19 PM) John: page 7?

(12:19 PM) John: i mean fulcrum 7

(12:19 PM) AEN: oh ok found it

(12:19 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:20 PM) John: mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7.  That is the result of being mindful and non conceptual.

(12:20 PM) John: but our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of "I AMness". (Soh: Also see: 1) Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment (Available in Languages: AR, DA, DE, EN, ES, FR, HI, ID, IT, JA, KO, NE, PL, PT-BR, PT-PT, RU, TA, TH, VI, ZH) )

(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:21 PM) John: this "I AMness" is a natural progression when the karmic propensities is still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature.

(12:21 PM) AEN: icic

(12:21 PM) John: at that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self

(12:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:22 PM) John: why no doership and why no I.  Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy.

(12:23 PM) John: They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'.

(12:23 PM) John: and how to break this spell?

(12:23 PM) John: that is the question.

(12:23 PM) AEN: icic

(12:23 PM) John: the experience is there but there is no clarity, this is the problem.

(12:23 PM) AEN: oic

(12:24 PM) AEN: eh btw page 184 about falcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience?

(12:24 PM) John: so one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification.

(12:24 PM) AEN: 'u're on a nature walk.... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain'

(12:24 PM) AEN: icic

(12:24 PM) John: yes that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature.

(12:24 PM) AEN: oic

(12:25 PM) John: it is a stage

(12:25 PM) AEN: not 'i amness'?

(12:25 PM) John: yes..

(12:25 PM) John: means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness.

(12:25 PM) AEN: o hmm last time i tink maybe i experience falcrum 7

(12:25 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:25 PM) John: he must continue to practice

(12:25 PM) AEN: icic

(12:25 PM) John: yeah...

(12:26 PM) John: when u told me about the clarity about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real.

(12:26 PM) John: this is come and go.

(12:26 PM) John: and i told u to see, the scenery but no one there.   

(12:26 PM) AEN: icic

(12:26 PM) John: that is the vividness, the clarity...all these are the attributes of awareness

(12:27 PM) John: now i tell u to experience the calmness to gather strength

(12:27 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:27 PM) John: stillness of body and mind

(12:27 PM) John: this is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity

(12:27 PM) AEN: icic

(12:28 PM) John: so one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't start yet.

(12:28 PM) AEN: oic

(12:28 PM) John: there must be this intuitive understanding of "I AM" then it begins.

(12:29 PM) John: like eckhart tolle

(12:29 PM) AEN: icic

(12:29 PM) John: like longchen and ken wilber...all these ppl experience the 'Self'.

(12:29 PM) John: the 'Self' is a misunderstood version.

(12:30 PM) AEN: oic

(12:30 PM) John: When I told longchen first there is no I, no self yet there is Presence, he confused.

(12:30 PM) John: remember?

(12:30 PM) AEN: ya

(12:31 PM) John: then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorance of the source...this is the question he asked bob.

(12:31 PM) AEN: oic

(12:31 PM) John: remember?

(12:31 PM) AEN: not too sure

(12:31 PM) AEN: which post?

(12:31 PM) John: hmm....what is his site url>

(12:31 PM) John: heheeh

(12:31 PM) AEN: wait

(12:31 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com

(12:31 PM) John: u r the one that send me the post what.

(12:32 PM) John: kok ur head

(12:32 PM) John: lol

(12:32 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:32 PM) AEN: i mean around when?

(12:53 PM) John: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1118915725

(12:54 PM) John: ahaha....

(12:54 PM) John: me of Me. :)

(12:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:54 PM) John: wah...take so long to look for this post that u send me. :P

(12:55 PM) AEN: yea hahaha... thanks for looking

(12:55 PM) John:   Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am   

(12:56 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:56 PM) John: he was asking bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :)

(12:57 PM) AEN: oic

(12:57 PM) John: he doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects...:)

(12:57 PM) John: lol

(12:57 PM) AEN: haha why??

(12:57 PM) John: he said so what...

(12:57 PM) AEN: yea i mean y he wldnt dare

(12:58 PM) John: paiseh to ask lah...later say like all ppl in Buddhism forum not enlightened. :P

(12:58 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:58 PM) AEN: icic

(12:59 PM) John: it is important that he breaks through that witness and see it in manifestation, that is exactly what ken wilber said. :)

(12:59 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:59 PM) John: in fact i borrow his books last week just because i saw this phrase. :P

(1:00 PM) AEN: oh.. icic

(1:00 PM) AEN: haha

(1:00 PM) John: otherwise no value.  

(1:00 PM) AEN: oic

(1:00 PM) John: because it is very common for one to sink back to the source.

(1:00 PM) John: but for his case, it is a bit unique...he dwell completely into manifestation.

(1:00 PM) AEN: icic...

(1:01 PM) John: and he experience witnessing consciousness in all three stages.

(1:01 PM) AEN: oic

(1:01 PM) John: waking, dreaming and dreamless

(1:01 PM) AEN: icic

(1:02 PM) John: but the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, i can't agree.  

(1:02 PM) John: i think it is not right and dangerous.

(1:02 PM) AEN: how come/

(1:02 PM) John: however i like his books because of his experience.

(1:02 PM) AEN: wait falcrum 8 is...?

(1:03 PM) AEN: falcrum 7 is dangerous? lol

(1:03 PM) John: because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation means there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage.

(1:03 PM) AEN: oic

(1:03 PM) John: next the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned.

(1:03 PM) John: that to me is not right.

(1:03 PM) John: and very dangerous.

(1:03 PM) AEN: icic..

(1:04 PM) John: a correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity and tranquility.

(1:04 PM) AEN: oic

(1:04 PM) John: this comes first then even one experience nothing about our nature is able to benefit from such fruition.

(1:05 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:05 PM) John: during death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress

(1:05 PM) AEN: icic

(1:05 PM) John: such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above.

(1:06 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:06 PM) AEN: ward off evil as in

(1:06 PM) John: or serve as the base for it.

(1:06 PM) AEN: oic

(1:06 PM) John: yeah...when the mind is calm, there is lil power over some person.

(1:06 PM) John: it is difficult to penetrate such a mind.

(1:06 PM) AEN: o icic...

(1:06 PM) John: therefore that must be the base of practice first.

(1:07 PM) AEN: oic

(1:07 PM) John: only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage...and real qualified masters are needed.

(1:08 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:08 PM) John: dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by ppl is dangerous.

(1:08 PM) John: and those masters are sure themselves unless they are really high achievers.

(1:08 PM) John: how many of them are truly so?

(1:08 PM) AEN: oic

(1:09 PM) John: therefore one should refrain from such practice.

(1:09 PM) AEN: oic

(1:10 PM) John: and teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind.

(1:10 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:10 PM) John: and at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right.

(1:10 PM) AEN: icic

(1:11 PM) John: lol...otherwise if nub ask then i start telling them this and that or twe asked then reply this and that...then they are misled.

(1:11 PM) AEN: oic hahah

(1:12 PM) John: rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm, it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation.

(1:12 PM) AEN: icic..

(1:13 PM) John: then get them aquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like.

(1:13 PM) John: that's all.

(1:13 PM) AEN: oic

(1:14 PM) John: the page 250 of what ken wilber described is exactly what longchen need now, he must stabilize this experience

(1:15 PM) John: and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern.

(1:15 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:15 PM) John: with this mastery, he is able to complete allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is.

(1:16 PM) John: now during night, sleep will definitely occur

(1:16 PM) John: why?

(1:16 PM) John: because the conditions are there.

(1:16 PM) John: the mind knows

(1:16 PM) AEN: icic

(1:16 PM) John: and is aware of it.

(1:16 PM) John: right?

(1:16 PM) AEN: 6ya

(1:17 PM) John: when the conditions are there, there is manifestation and that is itself the source.

(1:17 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:17 PM) John: when we din sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is

(1:18 PM) John: if we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this

(1:18 PM) John: one must observe the condition

(1:18 PM) AEN: oic

(1:19 PM) John: when we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition  

(1:19 PM) John: it is a form of subtle attachment

(1:19 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:19 PM) John: and also not knowing emptiness

(1:19 PM) AEN: icic

(1:19 PM) John: an attachment to the self.

(1:19 PM) AEN: oic

(1:20 PM) John: natural awareness can be sustained but through another way.

(1:20 PM) John: that is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside

(1:20 PM) AEN: icic

(1:20 PM) John: only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it.

(1:20 PM) John: that is achievement

(1:21 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:22 PM) John: when u read ken wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't.

(1:22 PM) AEN: icic ok

(1:22 PM) John: when future u faced problem u must know what can solve ur problems

(1:23 PM) AEN: oic

(1:23 PM) John: it is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world.

(1:23 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:24 PM) John: then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment, that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :)

(1:24 PM) AEN: icic

(1:25 PM) John: for one that experience "I AM", one can still take another 20 years to experience what ken wilber said.

(1:25 PM) John: it is just a 'spell' that bond and it takes more than 20 yrs for him to break.

(1:25 PM) John: nothing changes

(1:25 PM) John: just a bond

(1:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:26 PM) AEN: hmm ask u arh, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages ken wilber mentioned in the next lifetime? lol

(1:26 PM) John: yeah

(1:27 PM) John: as far as i know...hehehe

(1:27 PM) AEN: haha

(1:27 PM) AEN: icic

(1:27 PM) John: but don't worry too much...coz the strength of the practice is latent deep inside...

(1:27 PM) AEN: oic

(1:29 PM) John: how is the channel now?

(1:30 PM) AEN: the buddhist channel? ok la but quite quiet.. still got some chatting but not much

(1:30 PM) AEN: and all the ops are gone

(1:30 PM) AEN: last time got like 10 ops now only left 2

(1:30 PM) John: lol

(1:30 PM) AEN: others all deregistered

(1:30 PM) AEN: 2 as in including me

(1:30 PM) John: msn better...

(1:30 PM) AEN: haha

(1:30 PM) AEN: ya

(1:30 PM) John: have u read patanjali yoga sutra b4?

(1:36 PM) AEN: Leonard says:

thats life - no chance to even go for the chanting .

AEN     says:

how come? wat happe

Leonard says:

last night had dinner ....

AEN     says:

oic..

Leonard says:

sometimes i feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided ... i am trying so hard....

(1:37 PM) John: yes...he can't.

(1:37 PM) AEN: icic

(1:38 PM) AEN: Leonard says:

i wonder how the buddha did it....

(1:38 PM) John: a misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :)

(1:39 PM) John: Buddha din do it, he allows natural manifestation

(1:40 PM) John: That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature.

(1:40 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:40 PM) AEN: do i say that to him?

(1:40 PM) John: yes

(1:40 PM) AEN: ok

(1:41 PM) John: time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work

(1:41 PM) John: :P

(1:42 PM) John: when we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected.  There is no escape.

(1:42 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:43 PM) John: However by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts.  

(1:43 PM) John: just the qualities

(1:43 PM) AEN: icic

(1:43 PM) John: there is no need to care about the content...

(1:43 PM) AEN: oic

(1:44 PM) John: if he is able to dwell into those qualites, the content will subsides

(1:44 PM) AEN: icic

(1:44 PM) John: because all along this is being overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems.  

(1:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:51 PM) AEN: oh i remember like many months back when i first bought the power of now, i ask thevoice about it he seem to like it alot, except tat he said it can be dangerous bcos it can make ppl impatient or something.. like want things to be done immediately

(1:51 PM) AEN: i tink tats weird hahaha

(1:51 PM) AEN: then i told him that eckhart tolle is talking about silence in the now

(1:52 PM) John: ic

(1:55 PM) AEN: ok gtg cya

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