Conversation — 27 August 2006

John said, "Read your email about the Ken Wilber page 250."

AEN said, "Okay, wait. I see."

John said, "Fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self (comments by Soh: actually as clarified later, it is more of substantialist nondual but not yet anatta realization) and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "To date, Ken Wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description. (Note by Soh: However, Ken Wilber's understanding is still more of Stage 4 nondual, not yet anatta and emptiness as John Tan later clarified) It is from fulcrum 9-10."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming, and dreamless is what I told you should not be followed."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Let's take Longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do you think I am leading him?"

AEN said, "Emptiness? No-self and emptiness."

John said, "Yes. So where was he when he first communicated with you?"

AEN said, "In terms of fulcrum?"

John said, "Yeah."

AEN said, "Fulcrum 9-10?"

John said, "Yes. Did he go through 7 and 8?"

AEN said, "No."

John said, "Okay then, how is one to experience fulcrum 9? That is what I disagree. :) In fact, true enlightenment should only start at 9. And a glimpse of our nature starts at 9."

AEN said, "I see. You mean he said otherwise?"

John said, "7 can be the result of mindfulness."

AEN said, "Which page is 7?"

John said, "Page 7? I mean fulcrum 7."

AEN said, "Oh, okay, found it. I see."

John said, "Mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7. That is the result of being mindful and non-conceptual. But our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of 'I AMness'. (Soh: Also see: 1) Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment (Available in Languages: AR, DA, DE, EN, ES, FR, HI, ID, IT, JA, KO, NE, PL, PT-BR, PT-PT, RU, TA, TH, VI, ZH) )"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "This 'I AMness' is a natural progression when the karmic propensities are still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "At that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Why no doership and why no I? Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy. They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'. And how to break this spell? That is the question."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The experience is there but there is no clarity; this is the problem."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "So one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification."

AEN said, "Eh, by the way, page 184 about fulcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience? 'You're on a nature walk... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain.' I see."

John said, "Yes, that is experience of clarity without knowing the nature."

AEN said, "I see. It is a stage. Not 'I AMness'?"

John said, "Yes... means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness."

AEN said, "Oh, hmm, last time I think maybe I experienced fulcrum 7."

John said, "He must continue to practice. Yeah... when you told me about the clarity, about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real. This is come and go. And I told you to see the scenery but no one there. That is the vividness, the clarity... all these are the attributes of awareness. Now I tell you to experience the calmness to gather strength. Stillness of body and mind. This is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "So one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't started yet."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "There must be this intuitive understanding of 'I AM' then it begins. Like Eckhart Tolle. Like Longchen and Ken Wilber... all these people experience the 'Self'. The 'Self' is a misunderstood version. When I told Longchen first there is no I, no self, yet there is Presence, he was confused. Remember?"

AEN said, "Yeah."

John said, "Then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorant of the source... this is the question he asked Bob. Remember?"

AEN said, "Not too sure. Which post?"

John said, "Hmm... what is his site URL?"

AEN said, "Wait. [Simpo Proboards20](http://simpo.proboards20.com)."

John said, "You are the one that sent me the post. Knock your head."

AEN said, "I mean around when?"

John said, "[Simpo Proboards20 Insight Board Thread 1118915725](http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1118915725). Haha... Me of Me. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Wow... took so long to look for this post that you sent me. :P"

AEN said, "Yeah, haha... thanks for looking."

John said, "Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "He was asking Bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "He doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects... :) He said so."

AEN said, "Haha, why?? Yeah, I mean why he wouldn't dare?"

John said, "Shy to ask... later they'd say like all people in Buddhism forum are not enlightened. :P"

AEN said, "Haha, I see."

John said, "It is important that he breaks through that witness and sees it in manifestation; that is exactly what Ken Wilber said. :) In fact, I borrowed his books last week just because I saw this phrase. :P Otherwise no value."

AEN said, "Oh.. I see. Haha."

John said, "Because it is very common for one to sink back to the source. But for his case, it is a bit unique... he dwells completely into manifestation."

AEN said, "I see..."

John said, "And he experiences witnessing consciousness in all three stages: waking, dreaming, and dreamless."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "But the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, I can't agree. I think it is not right and dangerous."

AEN said, "How come?"

John said, "However, I like his books because of his experience."

AEN said, "Wait, fulcrum 8 is...? Fulcrum 7 is dangerous?"

John said, "Because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation, meaning there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage. Next, the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned. That to me is not right and very dangerous."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "A correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity, and tranquility. This comes first, then even if one experiences nothing about our nature, one is able to benefit from such fruition. During death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress. Such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above, or serves as the base for it."

AEN said, "I see. Ward off evil as in?"

John said, "Yeah... when the mind is calm, there is little power over some person. It is difficult to penetrate such a mind."

AEN said, "Oh, I see..."

John said, "Therefore that must be the base of practice first."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage... and real qualified masters are needed. Dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by people is dangerous. And those masters aren't sure themselves unless they are really high achievers. How many of them are truly so? Therefore one should refrain from such practice."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "And teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind. And at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right. Lol... otherwise if a newbie asks then I start telling them this and that, or if TWE asked then reply this and that... then they are misled."

AEN said, "I see, haha."

John said, "Rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm; it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation. Then get them acquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like. That's all."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "The page 250 of what Ken Wilber described is exactly what Longchen needs now; he must stabilize this experience and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern. With this mastery, he is able to completely allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is. Now during night, sleep will definitely occur. Why? Because the conditions are there. The mind knows and is aware of it. Right?"

AEN said, "I see. Yeah."

John said, "When the conditions are there, there is manifestation, and that is itself the source. When we didn't sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is. If we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this. One must observe the condition. When we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition. It is a form of subtle attachment and also not knowing emptiness. An attachment to the self."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "Natural awareness can be sustained but through another way. That is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside. Only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it. That is achievement."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "When you read Ken Wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't. When in the future you face problems, you must know what can solve your problems. It is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world. Then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment; that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :)"

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "For one that experiences 'I AM', one can still take another 20 years to experience what Ken Wilber said. It is just a 'spell' that bonds, and it takes more than 20 years for him to break. Nothing changes, just a bond."

AEN said, "I see. Hmm, ask you, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages Ken Wilber mentioned in the next lifetime?"

John said, "Yeah. As far as I know... hehehe."

AEN said, "Haha. I see."

John said, "But don't worry too much... because the strength of the practice is latent deep inside..."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "How is the channel now?"

AEN said, "The Buddhist channel? Okay, but quite quiet... still got some chatting but not much. And all the ops are gone. Last time there were like 10 ops, now only 2 left. Others all deregistered. 2 as in, including me."

John said, "MSN is better..."

AEN said, "Haha. Yeah. Leonard says: 'That's life - no chance to even go for the chanting.' I said: 'How come? What happened?' Leonard says: 'Last night had dinner...' I said: 'I see...' Leonard says: 'Sometimes I feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided... I am trying so hard....'"

John said, "Yes... he can't."

AEN said, "I see."

AEN said, "Leonard says: 'I wonder how the Buddha did it....'"

John said, "A misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :) Buddha didn't do it; he allowed natural manifestation. That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature."

AEN said, "I see. Do I say that to him?"

John said, "Yes."

AEN said, "Okay."

John said, "Time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work. :P When we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected. There is no escape."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "However, by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts. Just the qualities. There is no need to care about the content..."

AEN said, "I see."

John said, "If he is able to dwell into those qualities, the content will subside. Because all along this has been overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems."

AEN said, "I see. Oh, I remember like many months back when I first bought The Power of Now, I asked TheVoice about it. He seemed to like it a lot, except that he said it can be dangerous because it can make people impatient or something... like want things to be done immediately. I think that's weird, haha. Then I told him that Eckhart Tolle is talking about silence in the now."

John said, "I see."

AEN said, "Okay, got to go, cya."