Wrote these to someone who argued that nirodha samapatti (cessation of perceptions and feelings) is equivalent to nibbana/nirvana.

I told him he is definitely wrong.

Soh:

Nibbana literally means cessation. However, it is not the cessation of perception and feeling (nirodha samapatti).

As Geoff (Author of Measureless Mind, see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-meaning-of-nirvana.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html) wrote,

“Firstly, nibbana isn't a "state." Secondly, nibbana is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless samadhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibbana.

All the best,

Geoff”

Liberation is the cessation of dukkha, it is the end of appropriating aggregates (see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/what-does-it-mean-that-appropriated.html) in terms of I and mine, however it is not an unconscious state. Instead, as Geoff wrote,

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/09/great-resource-of-buddha-teachings.html

“AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta:

Thus, monks, the Tathāgata does not conceive an [object] seen when seeing what is to be seen. He does not conceive an unseen. He does not conceive a to-be-seen. He does not conceive a seer. 

He does not conceive an [object] heard when hearing what is to be heard. He does not conceive an unheard. He does not conceive a to-be-heard. He does not conceive a hearer. 

He does not conceive an [object] sensed when sensing what is to be sensed. He does not conceive an unsensed. He does not conceive a to-be-sensed. He does not conceive a senser. 

He does not conceive an [object] known when knowing what is to be known. He does not conceive an unknown. He does not conceive a to-be-known. He does not conceive a knower.

…

This is the freedom of absence which is revealed through the complete recognition of selflessness. Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta:

‘The seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the known.’ This is how you should train, Bāhiya. 

When, Bāhiya, for you the seen will be merely the seen, the heard will be merely the heard, the sensed will be merely the sensed, the known will be merely the known, then Bāhiya, you will not be that. When, Bāhiya, you are not that, then Bāhiya, you will not be there. When, Bāhiya, you are not there, then Bāhiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor between-the-two. Just this is the end of unsatisfactoriness.

…

The awakened mind is measureless (appamāṇacetasa), free from any sort of measuring (pamāṇa). In evocative terms, an awakened one is deep (gambhīra), boundless (appameyya), and fathomless (duppariyogāḷha). Utterly free from any reference to specifically fabricated consciousness (viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutta). “Gone” (atthaṅgata), the measureless mind is untraceable (ananuvejja) even here and now. It doesn’t abide in the head, or in the body, or anywhere else for that matter. It doesn’t have size or shape. It’s not an object or a subject.

Just as the sky is formless and non-illustrative, the measureless mind is non-illustrative and non-indicative (anidassana). This effortless clarity is unmediated by any specific fabrication or volitional intention. It is unaffected knowing: The seen is merely the seen (diṭṭhamatta). The heard is merely the heard (sutamatta). The sensed is merely the sensed (mutamatta). The known is merely the known (viññātamatta). But there is no you there. Of course, this liberating gnosis and vision can’t adequately be pointed out or indicated by words alone. It is to be individually experienced (paccatta veditabba).”

------

No, you are not providing any scriptural citation, and you will never find any scriptural citations that state nirodha samapatti = nibbana. To state nirodha samapatti is nibbana is wrong view. Buddha never taught that. The third noble truth is specifically the cessation of craving, or the three poisons of passion, aggression and delusion. It has nothing to do with nirodha samapatti.

Nirodhasamāpatti is an actual meditative attainment but it is not nibbana.

And whatever teachers that taught that nibbana is nirodha samapatti is wrong and mistaken.

And as Geoff said,

Excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-meaning-of-nirvana.html

The suttas define and describe the goal in sufficient terms. The difficulty in this discussion relates to whether one accepts what the canon states about the fruition of the path, or alternatively, accepts much later commentarial interpretations of the "path-moment" and "fruition-moment" as re-interpreted by a few 20th century Burmese monks. Without sufficient common ground for discussion there isn't much possibility of meaningful dialogue.

.........

I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:

What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.

He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabh�vasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:

In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.

This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the Pali canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.

All the best,

Geoff”

—-

My point is that Mahasi is wrong about this point. I do not wish to go into the details of his wrong views but suffice to say, he or his students misunderstood the stream entry moment as a blackout cessation. This is not the same as the actual attainment of stream entry as explained in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20

By the way, all Arahants have attained nibbana, but not all arahants have experienced nirodha samapatti.

Geoff:

“Hi Zom & all,

All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).

Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).

In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.

All the best,

Geoff”

“Nibbāna is the realization of the noble truth of the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha ariyasacca), which is not synonymous with nirodhasamāpatti. DN 22:

• And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving [for sensual pleasure, craving existence, craving non-existence].

Your interpretation of the supramundane paths and fruitions is not supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka. This has already been pointed out on this thread. Your interpretation of fruition attainment isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka either.

All the best,

Geoff”

“Hi Zom,

Even in the Visuddhimagga the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), a.k.a. the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha), while nominally mentioned as similar to nibbāna in a couple of passages, nevertheless is not the same as nibbāna. Visuddhimagga 23.52: 

• As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

It also can't be designated as the same as nibbāna because, as the Visuddhimagga points out, the cessation attainment requires mastery of the four formless attainments before it can be entered. Since there are arahants who haven't developed the formless attainments, they are incapable of attaining the cessation of apperception and feeling. Nevertheless, they are fully liberated through discernment.

All the best,

Geoff”

 Commenting on a certain teacher’s writings, John Tan wrote,

“When we say "Mind is the great earth", the first step is to understand and taste what is mind before we go a step further.

If the teaching doesn't teach and taste what mind is, then it is just beautiful talks and grandious speech.

Next one has to point out what is "great earth"?  Where is this "great earth"?  The soil, the ground, the flower, the air or buildings or the conventional world?

Then talk about what is total exertion they have been talking?

Then the integration of the mind and total exertion and that is +A.”

Soh: "Just now i printed hong wen liang article for my mom, was reminded of what you said when listening to this passage

色相也是，我看到你的时候，我的『妙净明心』，以你的色相，以你的色相就是我的动，不是我这里catch， 我知道，不是这样。你的色相就是我的『妙净明心』那样子动，所以有那个色相。色相就是我的『妙净明心』那样才有你的色相。所以，『在一切尘、一切刹』，你 到美国，美国的样子就是你的『妙净明心』以美国的样子动，看到苏联人哦哦哦地叫，那个声音就是我的妙净明心以那个声音的姿态动。知道或不知道是意识，但是 耳朵照样显现那个声音。所以，『在一切尘、一切刹』，你想到五千年前，思想上即会想到五千年前。“五千年前”的这个思想本身就是我的『妙净明心』那动， “啊，五千年前”，否则，你怎知道五千年前？你的『妙净明心』都是它去想，那个思想本身就是它的动呀。所以，『在一切尘、一切刹』，都是去到哪里，听到哪 里，想到哪里，就是显现嘛。所以，『与法界等』，不是另外有一个法界在，你的『妙净明心』在去等到，去认知，那就根本不是佛法了。这样你的我相怎抛开呢？ 这个非常非常重要，你好好地自己亲证到、确认的时候，就是enlightened。 确认之前都有我，好像我有一个『妙净明心』在这里照、照、照。听的、看的，到哪里就看到哪里，到哪里就听哪里，那是外道说法，说有一个在转世。你整个法界 变，好坏、声音、色相、感觉、思想，就是你的妙净明心那样子动。那你的本性不是『与法界等』嘛？否则怎『等』呢？所以『与法界等』就是这“赤裸裸”的事 情。"

(Translation of the text above can be found in Everything is oneself, mind cuts off all connections 物物皆自己，心心绝诸缘 by Zen Master Hong Wen Liang)

The same is true for visual form. When I see you, my 'wondrously pure and clear mind,' through your visual form, is my movement. It's not that I catch it, I know it. Your visual form is how my 'wondrously pure and clear mind' moves, so there is that visual form. The visual form is how my 'wondrously pure and clear mind' moves to have your visual form. Therefore, 'In all dusts, all worlds,' if you go to America, the appearance of America is how your 'wondrously pure and clear mind' moves as America. Seeing a Soviet person shouting, that sound is my wondrously pure and clear mind moving in that sound's form. Whether you know or don't know is consciousness, but the ears still manifest that sound. Therefore, 'In all dusts, all worlds,' if you think of five thousand years ago, your thought immediately goes to five thousand years ago. The thought of 'five thousand years ago' is the movement of my 'wondrously pure and clear mind,' 'Ah, five thousand years ago.' Otherwise, how would you know about five thousand years ago? It's your 'wondrously pure and clear mind' that goes there to think, and that thought itself is its movement. So, 'In all dusts, all worlds,' wherever you go, whatever you hear, wherever you think, it's all manifestation. Thus, 'Equal to the Dharma Realm' doesn't mean there is another Dharma Realm that your 'wondrously pure and clear mind' goes to recognize or equate to; that would not be Buddhism at all. How then can you abandon the notion of self? This is extremely important. When you personally verify and confirm this, you are enlightened. Before confirmation, there is self, as if I have a 'wondrously pure and clear mind' here watching, watching, watching. What you hear, see, wherever you go, you see it there, you hear it there, this is the heretical doctrine that speaks of a transmigrating soul. The entire Dharma Realm changes, good or bad, sound, visual form, sensation, thought, it's all the movement of your wondrously pure and clear mind. Isn't your nature 'Equal to the Dharma Realm'? Otherwise, how could it be 'equal'? Therefore, 'Equal to the Dharma Realm' is this stark reality."

John Tan: "👍"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/s/Pt9zPDXrSP

Soh replied someone’s question with the following:

“ Regardless of whether our parents are ‘nice people’, the minimal duty as Buddhists is to carry out what Buddha told us: ‘Numbered Discourses 2.32–41 33 “Mendicants, I say that these two people cannot easily be repaid. What two? Mother and father. You would not have done enough to repay your mother and father even if you were to carry your mother around on one shoulder and your father on the other, and if you lived like this for a hundred years, and if you were to anoint, massage, bathe, and rub them; and even if they were to defecate and urinate right there. Even if you were to establish your mother and father as supreme monarchs of this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would still not have done enough to repay them. Why is that? Parents are very helpful to their children: they raise them, nurture them, and show them the world. But you have done enough, more than enough, to repay them if you encourage, settle, and ground unfaithful parents in faith, unethical parents in ethical conduct, stingy parents in generosity, or ignorant parents in wisdom.”’ - https://suttacentral.net/an2.33/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

Numbered Discourses 4.63 7. Fitting Deeds Living with Brahmā “Mendicants, a family where the children honor their parents in their home is said to live with Brahmā. A family where the children honor their parents in their home is said to live with the first teachers. A family where the children honor their parents in their home is said to live with the old deities. A family where the children honor their parents in their home is said to live with those worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods. ‘Brahmā’ is a term for your parents. ‘First teachers’ is a term for your parents. ‘Old deities’ is a term for your parents. ‘Worthy of an offering dedicated to the gods’ is a term for your parents. Why is that? Parents are very helpful to their children, they raise them, nurture them, and show them the world. Parents are said to be ‘Brahmā’ and ‘first teachers’. They’re worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods from their children, for they love their offspring. Therefore an astute person would revere them and honor them with food and drink, clothes and bedding, by anointing and bathing, and by washing their feet. Because they look after their parents like this, they’re praised in this life by the astute, and they depart to rejoice in heaven.” - https://suttacentral.net/an4.63/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin”

Steven Lane

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In the ATR Practice Guide, as part of stage 1, it says, " If you are unable to quiet your mind to a state of no-thought, it will be difficult to realise. You should think carefully what is the best method for you to still your mind? Is it meditation? Or is it chanting the Buddha's name and reciting mantras?"

This is clearly a Zen instruction which I would have received myself many times. Yet, is this really essential?

Contemporary non dual teachers such as Rupert Spira would point to Presence as something we already intuitively know - we know we are present (existent) and we know we are aware. If we ask the question, "am I aware" it becomes obvious. Subsequent pointing out makes stage 1 obvious (Rupert Spira has a 3 fold insight process - discovering Presence as a witness, discovering Presence as a container in which everything is arising and disappearing, and finally discovering Presence as Isness in which Presence and what is appearing are of the same nature)

In Dzogchen different approaches are taken according to the practitioners' capacity. For example in Semde, emphasis is first put on quieting the mind. But in the Uppadesha teachings other approaches are used (which go way beyond stage 1 because the emptiness of Presence is realised simultaneously). For example, the PHAT practice - this sounds is uttered loud and shocks the mind - the first results is a confusion - a nothingness - followed by a clear though brief seeing of Presence. Or the practice of Trekchod in which essentially we just sit and allow everything to be, sooner or later reveals the same.

Thoughts? (how important is it to have the empty mind first)

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Mr. JY

In my opinion, if it's difficult to quiet your mind, it will probably take longer to realize I AM.

It took about 10 years of meditation and 5 years of self-inquiry here before I AM awakening. I was working through a lot of trauma, which made it difficult to quiet the mind and likely slowed the pace.

If you find it difficult to quiet the mind, there may be trauma in the body. Trauma is housed in the nervous system and is not necessarily released through meditation or inquiry. Some kind of body-based practice, like qigong, yoga, TRE, EMDR, 5Rhythms, or Somatic Experiencing, is likely needed to access and release the trauma. This will likely make meditative and inquiry practices flow more smoothly, because you are releasing chronic tension and emotional blockages in the body, which normally impede energy flow, create reactivity, and drive habitual thinking.

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5h

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Soh Wei Yu

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Important for the realization beyond mere glimpses IMO. It is also not really that difficult to get that pause in conceptualization. We all encounter it from time to time. But it is important to train in some kind of shamatha or meditation as a foundation for effective self enquiry.

Do read these articles as it elaborates:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/how-silent-meditation-helped-me-with.html

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/05/isness-of-thought-between-two-moments.html

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/i-am-experienceglimpserecognition-vs-i.html

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/quietening-inner-chatter.html

But there is no need to wait until the mind is super still before you start inquiring. For example there is no need to wait until you meditate 30 minutes, or 1 hour, or enter a jhana, etc before you start inquiring. Back then I would probably sit for only a short while relaxing my mind, before I begin inquiring, or start inquiring when I was able to set aside my mundane concerns enough to focus on the main inquiry "Before birth, Who am I?"

My I AM realization happened during a one hour sitting meditation session with a backdrop of relatively stable and quiet mind and inquiring on 'before birth, who am I?'

4m

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Will Gau

One way to think about the 'I Am' is as a pure consciousness experience in thought space, or an experience of the space of thought prior to the arising of any thought. So it may also be argued that it is synonymous with a quieting of the mind, even if only for a moment.

54m

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Will Gau

It's also worth 'investing' in samatha practice as it will help you throughout every stage of the process, and every time you access concentration states like jhanas for the first time, they become easier to access in the future.

1h

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Will Gau

Combining self-inquiry with concentration will be more likely to trigger insight than either one alone. Concentration, like samatha meditation, will also allow for more consistent access to and smoother integration of insights. Even in direct approach schools, samatha is taught to stabilize the mind. My I Am realization occurred during a home retreat following a recording of a dzogchen samatha retreat given by Allan B. Wallace. I found the instructions to be very clear and direct, and lead me straight to the insight after a period of stabilizing concentration.

1h

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