Also see: +A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6) , Emptiness/Chariot as Vivid Appearing Presence ,  Non-Arising due to Dependent Origination , Primordially Unborn


[27/3/16, 5:48:10 PM] John Tan: There r 2 -A aspects of "emptiness" that stand out quite strongly when contemplating the emptiness of phenomena in my experience.

1.  The non-arising nature of suchness.  There is no true arising, duration and cessation of appearance freeing one from the proliferation of production and cessation.
2. Illusion-like experience

When contemplating the "redness" of a flower and asked "where" is this redness? Is it on the "flower"? Where is the "flower" besides as an empty convention reified as "entity".   Where is the vivid "redness"?  Look at the vivid color...so clear and real but where is it?

Similarly contemplating the dependent origination and emptiness of a beautiful piece of music.  The former note does not meet the current note yet a beautiful music is produced. Where is this music?  Do no attempt to think of its whereabout but "feel" the whereabout...

There will come a time this mirage like experience of phenomena is brought into actual taste upon the immanent presence itself.  Here but never truly here..vividly present but no where to b found...do not think abt it but as a living first person visceral taste of this illusion-like nature of whatever arises...indestructibly vajra not by being powerful, but by being not-real (-A).

 

 

......

 

 
[29/3/16, 12:27:44 AM] John Tan: The first actual taste of the profound teaching of essencelessness is from the insight of anatta.  However the taste is far from mature realisation of the meaning of non-arising and empty nature of phenomena.
[29/3/16, 12:30:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 12:30:58 AM] John Tan: So if u do not see essencelessness deep enough, u won't b able to "feel"  essencelessness
[29/3/16, 12:32:45 AM] John Tan: There when someone says a bell is ringing, it only sounds logical conventionally, not ultimately.
[29/3/16, 12:43:41 AM] John Tan: For in ultimate sense, neither bell nor sound can b found when sought.
[29/3/16, 12:43:56 AM] John Tan: And what does that mean?
[29/3/16, 12:44:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Bell is labelled based on the sound, the Colours, the function
[29/3/16, 12:44:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No bell can be found
[29/3/16, 12:45:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Sound is labelled in dependence on hearing, hitting, etc
[29/3/16, 12:46:36 AM] John Tan: Like the example u gave once, these texts I m typing scrolls up and down seem to appear and disappear.  The texts seem to hide below window and when scrolled upward appears to re-surface from below the window.
[29/3/16, 12:47:22 AM] John Tan: But in ultimate sense, there is no text hidden below the chat window.
[29/3/16, 12:48:18 AM] John Tan: But that is in ultimate sense, not conventional sense.
[29/3/16, 12:49:12 AM] John Tan: So in ultimate sense, there is nothing truly arise, abide and cease.
[29/3/16, 12:49:33 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 12:58:15 AM] John Tan: So bringing this into actual taste (as first person), what is this telling u? In anatta, what is it telling u and how it feels like?
[29/3/16, 3:40:51 AM] Soh Wei Yu: In Anatta one is freed from the ghostly image of inherent existence and directly taste the appearance.. Likewise for non arising one taste the nature of appearance as empty clarity free from Essence, coming, going
[29/3/16, 3:41:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta tells you there is no ghost or inherent existence to awareness besides seen, heard, smell
[29/3/16, 7:59:02 AM] John Tan: U no need to work?
[29/3/16, 7:59:22 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Need to work
[29/3/16, 7:59:30 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Woke up in the middle of the night lol
[29/3/16, 7:59:45 AM] John Tan: Lol
[29/3/16, 8:02:21 AM] John Tan: Free from the inherent existence of self...not free from inherent existence
[29/3/16, 8:14:35 AM] John Tan: Yes allowing one to directly taste the transience and realize these transience (color, sound, thoughts, sensations, scent) that we shunt away is the very suchness.  So don't look elsewhere for suchness.

Sound, sensations, colors, form, scent...all these transience phenomena...they r like the texts being scrolled up and down, appears to come and go...but in ultimate sense, understand that they do not truly arise, abide and cease.   That is the non-arising and empty nature of suchness.

It is fully understanding these evanescence appearances without  having the need to resort back to a linking essence that is difficult.
[29/3/16, 8:15:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[29/3/16, 8:16:55 AM] John Tan: There is some true existence hearing nature is the problem...for that is precisely the cause of duality.
[29/3/16, 8:17:07 AM] John Tan: And cause of suffering.
[29/3/16, 8:22:44 AM] John Tan: If one needs to establish "sound" to b "here", to b "now" or to have firm establishment any hearing nature separate from sound....that is stressful, not liberating.
[29/3/16, 8:26:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[29/3/16, 8:28:16 AM] John Tan: Freedom comes from directly experiencing the empty and non-arising nature of appearances in real time...not needing an Essence ground is the releasing factor.
[29/3/16, 8:41:11 AM] John Tan: The key issue is most do not know the way of essencelessness.  It is directly opposite of "holding...rather it is just full and unreserve opening...complete welcoming
[29/3/16, 8:45:18 AM] John Tan: Even u after conceptually understood...even after initially taste of selflessness and the insight of anatta, there is no release.  The karmic tendency of holding on to an essence has infiltrated into every aspect of our thoughts, manifested in our every action, imprinted into every cell.
[29/3/16, 8:46:48 AM] John Tan: The body must b opened up too in addition to just dissolving reified mental constructs.


...



[5/4/16, 9:38:14 AM] John Tan: Investigation of what?
[5/4/16, 9:38:52 AM] John Tan: What sort of analysis and investigations r u implying?
[5/4/16, 9:40:43 AM] John Tan: The analysis is known as ultimate analysis...means u use the ultimate analysis to seek for the truth of inherent Essence
[5/4/16, 9:41:15 AM] John Tan: I think there 7 commonly methods
[5/4/16, 9:43:02 AM] John Tan: The investigation is not what u r thinking...it is to point out the way the mind misunderstand what is true and real and how the mind is misled.
[5/4/16, 9:43:37 AM] John Tan: So it addresses the fundamental problem in understanding such a way despite clear experience.
[5/4/16, 9:45:25 AM] John Tan: It does not mean there is no appearances or functionality....but for there to b any validity, functionality and appearances...substantialist view cannot hold.
[5/4/16, 9:48:17 AM] John Tan: For sound + ear + sound consciousness...only appears to sound logical and appears that the ear hears truly existing external sound....but when each is investigated with ultimate analysis, they failed.
[5/4/16, 10:00:20 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[5/4/16, 10:53:25 AM] John Tan: So whatever appears to arise ( in the six entries and exits we called phenomena) cannot b said to b existent or non-existent, they r free from extremes, i.e, empty and non-arising.
[5/4/16, 10:53:58 AM] John Tan: Then there is the intellectual understanding and direct insight.
[5/4/16, 10:55:47 AM] John Tan: Conventions when sought (ultimate analysis) cannot b found, they r empty and non-arising.  The other is the direct experience of the six entries and exits, they r directly realised to b empty and non-arising.
[5/4/16, 10:57:54 AM] John Tan: Because the mind is not used to the "logic" of essencelessness, it has to b trained and pointed out so that mind free of essencelessness view will understand the nature of whatever arises when directly experienced for example in anatta.
[5/4/16, 10:59:34 AM] John Tan: Like u think "sound" arises, stays, subsides....but once there is the direct taste of "sound" in anatta, it must also b understood to b free from extremes, empty and non-arising.
[5/4/16, 11:08:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[7/4/16, 9:57:04 AM] John Tan: ‎Messages to this chat and calls are now secured with end-to-end encryption.
[7/4/16, 9:57:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Had a strange dream yesterday where I completed submitted to some god/goddess and enter a very blissful state and everything becomes completely an act of grace without sense of doer.. Not my will. Then woke up
[7/4/16, 9:57:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Can't remember what I saw.. I think is guan Yin
[7/4/16, 9:57:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Completely*
[7/4/16, 9:58:36 AM] Soh Wei Yu: And then guan Yun pointed at me and sort of "reminded me" to rest in my true nature... Something like that
[7/4/16, 9:59:15 AM] John Tan: That is good


.....



[18/11/16, 1:07:20 AM] John Tan: Telling u that sickness and flu r empty is not to tell u they don't exist but sickness and flu will go away, no permanent essence of itself that is fixed and permanent.
[18/11/16, 1:10:18 AM] John Tan: There r conditions for the manifestation and because of that, there is a way out.
[18/11/16, 7:47:53 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[18/11/16, 7:48:56 AM] John Tan: U must not go nihilistic but understand dependent origination.
[18/11/16, 7:50:25 AM] John Tan: To clear the mis-conception of "origination" as if there is something concrete coming into being and cease.
[18/11/16, 7:52:30 AM] John Tan: Not to turn nihilistic.  Everything remains the same except the mis-conception that whatever arises in dependent cannot b said to truly arise, abide and cease.  Their nature being empty and non-arising.


...



[18/4/17, 12:39:34 AM] John Tan: When u clearly see "redness" of a flower, of the "blueness" of the sky, they r "not exactly there" although they "clearly" appear and seem so undeniable.  Neither u nor me nor a dog nor a bird nor whatever sees the same phenomena despite vivid appearances.

There r like reflections in a mirror.
[18/4/17, 12:43:23 AM] John Tan: So although we see coming and going, our mind is confused due to mistaking these phenomena as true and real.  These idea of "true" and "real" r entirely conventional, they r learned but mistaken as ultimate.
[18/4/17, 12:43:46 AM] John Tan: So Wisdom is to see through this.
[18/4/17, 12:44:57 AM] John Tan: Not that there is no appearance of arising and ceasing.
[18/4/17, 12:46:05 AM] John Tan: But what is more important abt understanding this is it is telling u abt the nature of mind/consciousness and phenomena.
[18/4/17, 12:46:29 AM] John Tan: They r talking abt the nature of consciousness
[18/4/17, 12:47:26 AM] John Tan: If it isn't then there is no point learning and knowing this at all.  No point knowing DO and emptiness.
[18/4/17, 12:47:37 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[18/4/17, 12:48:14 AM] John Tan: If consciousness is something very special and unique, then all focus must b placed on that.
[18/4/17, 12:49:10 AM] John Tan: So for one that sees through this sees through the confusion of essence view.
[18/4/17, 12:50:55 AM] John Tan: Therefore understanding the nature phenomena is understanding consciousness.
[18/4/17, 7:32:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic
[18/4/17, 7:42:52 AM] John Tan: Something that arises and passes is a deeply ingrained belief that resulted from essence view.

Whatever dependently originates though vividly appears is non-arisen, does not come and go.
[18/4/17, 7:44:05 AM] John Tan: And there is only ceaseless appearances.
[18/4/17, 7:45:02 AM] John Tan: So ur grand master 自性 is just an appearance.
[18/4/17, 7:48:09 AM] John Tan: Then comes the taste of this truth or nature directly.
[18/4/17, 7:48:18 AM] John Tan: Every moment.
[18/4/17, 7:49:32 AM] John Tan: Means when seeing, tasting thinking, hearing....u directly taste the meaning of non-arising phenomena.   Magical and wonderful truth of emptiness in real-time.
[18/4/17, 7:50:19 AM] John Tan: Non-arisen does not mean no effect



.....


[16/12/16, 12:52:51 AM] John Tan: For R, u should tell them abt right view.
[16/12/16, 12:54:29 AM] John Tan: When u hit a bell, how did the sound arise? Where did it go?
[16/12/16, 12:54:58 AM] John Tan: Is there arising or can u say there is arising?
[16/12/16, 12:55:25 AM] John Tan: This is crucial and key to understanding of emptiness and releasing.
[16/12/16, 12:56:36 AM] John Tan: Why whatever arises in dependence due to conditions cannot b said to arise Nor cease? And that is the middle path.
[16/12/16, 12:57:43 AM] John Tan: Neither arises, Nor not arises.
Neither ceases, Nor not ceases.
Neither existence Nor non existence.
Neither affirmation Nor negation.
[16/12/16, 12:58:20 AM] John Tan: And these must b understood the right way with right view.
[16/12/16, 12:58:36 AM] John Tan: Not for beautiful language
[16/12/16, 12:59:24 AM] John Tan: If consciousness ceases this moment can u say it ceases?
[16/12/16, 12:59:57 AM] John Tan: If this thought ceases can u say it ceases?
[16/12/16, 1:00:05 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No, nothing arose or cease like a city mirage on horizon
[16/12/16, 1:00:32 AM] John Tan: But y it cannot b said to cease?
[16/12/16, 1:00:58 AM] John Tan: I have told u many times u must understand from DO and not just emptiness.
[16/12/16, 1:01:32 AM] John Tan: Because whatever arises do not arise by itself.
[16/12/16, 1:02:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[16/12/16, 1:02:18 AM] John Tan: Now what did Buddha say?  If there is karma and conditions, can phenomena not manifest?
[16/12/16, 1:03:34 AM] John Tan: If this mind moment ceases, can next mind not arise if conditions r there?
[16/12/16, 1:04:08 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No, mind moment will arise on conditions
[16/12/16, 1:04:35 AM] John Tan: So there is no real cessation
[16/12/16, 1:04:57 AM] John Tan: Yet this mind moment is not the same as next mind moment
[16/12/16, 1:05:16 AM] John Tan: And they cannot b said to b different either
[16/12/16, 1:05:34 AM] John Tan: It cannot b said to have not ceased
[16/12/16, 1:05:48 AM] John Tan: And cannot b said to have ceased.
[16/12/16, 1:06:21 AM] John Tan: As such whatever arises in dependence is non-arisen.
[16/12/16, 1:06:57 AM] John Tan: Then u talk abt the direct experience of mind...
[16/12/16, 1:07:17 AM] John Tan: Of the six entries and exits
[16/12/16, 1:07:39 AM] John Tan: Experience and view


...

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Going through some old chats, just a random sharing:
    [4/12/15, 8:54:05 PM] John Tan: The basis of designation is the parts
    [4/12/15, 8:55:11 PM] John Tan: And the purpose is to demonstrate that existence and non-existence r extremes
    [4/12/15, 8:56:15 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but dalai lama said basis is existent. what you think
    [4/12/15, 8:58:14 PM] John Tan: I think Dalai Lama is using general expression. It is due to Appearance that gives rise to the possibility of designations.
    ‎[4/12/15, 8:58:27 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
    ‎[4/12/15, 8:58:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
    [4/12/15, 8:58:40 PM] John Tan: A confused mind sees true existence
    [4/12/15, 8:58:50 PM] John Tan: And non-existence
    [4/12/15, 9:00:02 PM] John Tan: Confused due reification and mistaking it as real.
    [4/12/15, 9:00:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [4/12/15, 9:02:29 PM] John Tan: Everyone has their conditions that give rise to their understanding of emptiness and dependent arising.
    [4/12/15, 9:03:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What u mean
    ‎[4/12/15, 9:05:48 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
    [4/12/15, 9:07:38 PM] John Tan: For those that hv experiential insight of anatta (not just an experience of no-mind), seeing does not need a seer...so when they read abt emptiness, they hv no issues of manifestation taking place without essence.
    [4/12/15, 9:10:23 PM] John Tan: What needed to penetrate is to realize further that phenomena too cannot b considered to b valid if the agent is absence. If there is no seer, the seen too cannot b valid.
    Then one further understand the role of conventions.
    And refines the understanding of one's experience and insight of anatta.
    [4/12/15, 9:13:57 PM] John Tan: Now it will not b easy even if u hv anatta experience until u realize the role of conventions and the problems of taking conventions to b true and real. The problems and paradox r thoroughly explored in madyhamakakarinas.
    [4/12/15, 9:19:08 PM] John Tan: We keep challenging our deeply rooted understanding grounded in essence view in the 27 chapters...till we understand how all originations, existence, non existence...etc are based on an essence view....until we realize the nature of whatever arise r always free from extremes, empty and non-arising.
    [4/12/15, 9:20:33 PM] John Tan: But can such a conceptual understanding lead to a non-conceptual taste of whatever arises?
    [4/12/15, 9:22:33 PM] John Tan: So this is different for those that has the condition of directly experiencing phenomena non-conceptually (without dual and background).
    [4/12/15, 9:23:07 PM] John Tan: They r able to keep authenticating the teaching with their experience.
    [4/12/15, 9:23:21 PM] John Tan: Until they break-through.
    [4/12/15, 9:28:23 PM] John Tan: Just like when hearing sound, there is no hearer. Such non-dual anatta experience can be expressed by onessness or sound is Me. Yet it is not Me...but how can that b? The paradox is due to the problem of language that is based on essence framework. If we r unable to see through the problem of this framework and its associated problems, then non-conceptual experience is of not much use.
    [4/12/15, 9:30:21 PM] John Tan: So I always tell u there r 2 lvls of realizing and both r equally imp..releasing the mind and the direct of phenomena realizing it is empty and non-arising.
    [4/12/15, 9:30:32 PM] John Tan: Do u get what I mean?
    [4/12/15, 9:31:02 PM] John Tan: The experience sound...where is it?
    [4/12/15, 9:31:28 PM] John Tan: Where is this clear lurid scenery in no-mind?
    [4/12/15, 9:32:04 PM] John Tan: This is directly authenticating the nature of phenomena experiential my.
    [4/12/15, 9:33:17 PM] John Tan: Taste it...what after anatta, the foreground...taste it...see what emptiness and non-arising mean with regards to all these phenomena.
    [4/12/15, 9:34:16 PM] John Tan: Then investigate how conventions the applied to describe these phenomena...
    [4/12/15, 9:36:18 PM] John Tan: It actually can't and is no where close other than just being a convenient way to communicate to each other using established conventions...but we truly feel this is the way it should b even after anatta insight.
    [4/12/15, 9:37:52 PM] John Tan: Until we r clear with all these with thorough investigation then the mind is clear and can slowly release itself from the effect of seeing existence and non-existence...seeing origination.
    [4/12/15, 9:37:59 PM] John Tan: Get what I mean?
    [4/12/15, 9:42:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So first level is like what.. seeing nonarising on conventional level and second level is like directly seeing colours taste etc are no where even though appearing therefore unborn?
    [4/12/15, 9:44:09 PM] John Tan: U see there is the direct non-dual experience...that is beyond conceptual elaboration ... We authenticate the nature of it with two words -- emptiness and non-arising.
    [4/12/15, 9:45:55 PM] John Tan: There is also the lvl that deals with the mind (conceptual)...this we hv to understand all the problems that r associated with Essence view...like the madyamaka went through very thoroughly in the 27 chapters...until we see through
    [4/12/15, 9:46:46 PM] John Tan: We hv to understand what is conventional
    [4/12/15, 9:47:42 PM] John Tan: And at the conventional lvl, the right way to express and the wrong way to express
    [4/12/15, 9:49:26 PM] John Tan: There is no therefore unborn...
    [4/12/15, 9:49:40 PM] John Tan: Unborn is not derived.
    [4/12/15, 9:50:31 PM] John Tan: It is not because of this and that therefore unborn.
    [4/12/15, 9:51:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [4/12/15, 9:53:17 PM] John Tan: U realised origination is due to Essence view and Essence cannot be found upon ultimate analysis.
    [4/12/15, 9:55:29 PM] John Tan: That is using madyamaka...for one that has experiential taste, he has the additional advantage of directly authenticating phenomena.
    [4/12/15, 9:56:03 PM] John Tan: With his non-dual anatta experience.
    [4/12/15, 9:57:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [4/12/15, 9:59:20 PM] John Tan: -->That is using madyamaka...for one that has experiential taste, he has the additional advantage of directly authenticating phenomena.
    This is the article I ask u abt where is this scenery in my reply to dAniel 's post abt 2nd fold. [Soh: referring to
    [5/12/15, 9:11:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [5/12/15, 9:22:38 AM] John Tan: I was thinking abt my daughter yesterday night, she is already 23. Life passes so fast like a flash of lightning...another round of this, I can probably smell my grave...lol.
    I must not waste my life further and go deeply into practice.
        Reply
        8m
    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    [13/12/15, 10:39:45 PM] John Tan: When the mind is conditioned, it is unable to experience directly. Coz it is always dual and reify a background. The very background is preventing him/her from the direct experience.
    [13/12/15, 10:40:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [13/12/15, 10:41:00 PM] John Tan: So a mind free from that then can directly experience unconditioned consciousness ... Which is what?
    [13/12/15, 10:41:12 PM] John Tan: What is it?
    [13/12/15, 10:50:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Means the luminosity/phenomena experienced as nonarisen/empty?
    [13/12/15, 10:50:48 PM] John Tan: Yes
    [13/12/15, 11:01:22 PM] John Tan: For it is realised that other than a confused mind that mistakes conventions as true and real existence(mind/phenomena), the "nature" of phenomena has always been empty and non-arising.
    Once we experience Anatta and further realised how conventions fool us, then one can clearly sees, tastes, touchs, senses, thinks...whatever appears is nakedly crystal, clean, luminous but empty like evanescence mist and non-arisen like mirages. Always already so! This then in imo is the essence of the teaching.
    [13/12/15, 11:02:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [13/12/15, 11:03:08 PM] John Tan: We r not denying consciousness but directly tasting consciousness every moment.
    [13/12/15, 11:05:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [13/12/15, 11:09:24 PM] John Tan: Whenever I see DO, I see emptiness and non-arising and taste what is termed pristine consciousness.
    [13/12/15, 11:11:30 PM] John Tan: So I
    hv no issue of two truths. In fact two truths perfectly described my moment to moment of and non-dual experience.
    [14/12/15, 6:04:28 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [14/12/15, 6:19:54 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Does mahamudra teach two truths
    [14/12/15, 8:08:32 AM] John Tan: I don't think so.
    [14/12/15, 8:08:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. so only gelug
    [14/12/15, 8:09:20 AM] John Tan: No lah
    [14/12/15, 8:09:43 AM] John Tan: Smack ur head
    [14/12/15, 8:13:22 AM] John Tan: Two truths is a teaching that originates from Mahayana Buddhism from mmk. As long as u take Mahayana sutrayana, u learn these teaching.
    [14/12/15, 8:14:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [14/12/15, 8:21:28 AM] John Tan: In the highest teaching, u always see them as one.
        Reply
        8m       ..

 

 

 

 

I wrote recently,

"Soh Wei Yu
William Lim
Everyone understands dynamic but not everyone understands what is dynamic is dependently originating and non arising like a rainbow or reflection. Vividly present yet nothing there. Hence the dynamic phenomena is also free of some sort of real existence undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing.
Dynamic phenomena can be mistaken as not empty - that is, it may be mistaken that there exists phenomena that have some sort of real essence or existence that is truly undergoing arising, abiding and ceasing by its own self existence, even if that process happens momentarily and quickly.
Reply7wEdited
Soh Wei Yu
“Pursuant to the middle view, Tson-kha-pa cites Nagarjuna's Yuk-tisastika and Candrakirti's Yuktisastika-vrtti.
Nagarjuna:
What arises in dependence is not born;
That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality 😊 Buddha).
Candrakirti:
(The realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing) is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence." Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not valid.)
(The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)
Alas! Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence - at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and the Middle View
Reply7w"


"Non arisen means like reflection of moon on water, nothing is created or originated anywhere in the water but appears due to dependencies. If nothing is created or originated despite appearance, how can we speak of the real arising, abiding, cessation of said entity?

If something could arise and exist by way of self existence, that would also contradict the possibility of its dependent origination and impermanence conventionally. It is precisely because everything is illusory without essence like a reflection, that its appearance and dynamic potentiality is possible, by way of dependent origination."

A friend Jayson MPaul also wrote, "Rainbows need to have eyes in correct position, water droplets, light, radiant mind, all like so for rainbow to appear. Move slightly and rainbow is gone. Never came from anywhere, stayed anywhere, or went anywhere. The rainbow was insubstantial, but vividly displayed. All phenomena are like this."

Also

“[3/8/19, 5:10:10 PM] John Tan: Non-arising means appearances without essence similar to a reflection, like a rainbow.”


Also see: +A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6) , Emptiness/Chariot as Vivid Appearing Presence ,  Non-Arising due to Dependent Origination , Primordially Unborn

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