Awakening to Reality: Someone asked about Pemako stages

Soh

Mr. DL shared a link.Awakening to Reality

Anyone heard of Pemako Sangha? Maybe some people in this group were or are presently practicing it. They claim to have had 13 people reach Full Buddhahood through their methods/teachings/practices. Not trying to start a turf war, I have no skin in the game haha (truly), just curious of what people's thoughts are, if any.

I'm not sure where the attainment of actual Buddhahood fits in the AtR seven stages framework (if it does "fit" at all).

MODERNMAHASIDDHA.COM

Fully Enlightened People in Pemako Sangha

I’ve collected a number of claims of enlightenment from traditional sources that I will include in my upcoming book. Here’s few of them. From The Supreme Source, Kunjed Gyalpo, The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde”, translated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Adriano Clemente: Ope...

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Mr. DL
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A discussion in their fb group with more details:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pemako/posts/10158222213661652/
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           Mr. BK
          I don't understand why you think it is bad to discuss and compare stages. In the name of openness and understanding it can only be a good thing to discuss these things.
          You must realize that you have provided a huge amount of reading. There must be a more simple way to describe AtR stages. If it takes an entire book, it is too complicated. Dharma is actually quite simple and should be able to be described in a simple way. Just my opinion.
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              Mr. OMA
              Mr. BK l think there is alot of comparison in AtR. Also l have to say l belive that it is necessary to have proper understanding experientally of whatever stage you comment on to be the right person to provide such comentaries, at least that is my opinion.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. BK Those articles are really not a lot. The AtR guide is much longer: 1000+ pages. Those articles are basically summary versions. Buddha never said the dharma is short and simple to understand... it often takes years of reading and meditating to understand it.. so I do encourage some form of patience in trying to understand the system. Not to oversimplify things.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              "This doctrine is profound, hard to see, difficult to understand, calm, sublime, not within the sphere of logic, subtle, to be understood by the wise". - MAJJHIMA NIKĀYA
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              Mr. OMA
              Soh Wei Yu this varies quite a bit though which teacher one refers to, not denying either of course.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA John Tan wrote in 2007 to me even before I had any realisations:
              "(4:46 PM) Thusness: and I cannot say that he is right when it is wrong.
              (4:47 PM) Thusness: while what u said tends to prone towards theoretical and might confuse ppl, then is not bad
              (4:48 PM) Thusness: for u do not mislead ppl into thinking i have got it.
              (4:48 PM) AEN: maybe ultimately its wrong cos thats only relative truths, but its more like a matter of skillful means
              (4:48 PM) AEN: oic
              (4:48 PM) Thusness: but if u tell someone it is that simple and mislead ppl into thinking it is it, then that is misleading.
              (4:48 PM) AEN: icic..
              (4:49 PM) Thusness: all claims simplicity and directness
              (4:49 PM) Thusness: but none know the implication of tendencies.
              "
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA
              Usually those who oversimplify things simply miss out the subtlety and profundity of dharma and the depths of one's own ignorance and delusions.
              As John Tan said years ago, "Although Joan Tollifson spoke of the natural non-dual state as something “so simple, so immediate, so obvious, so ever-present that we often overlook”, we have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness. I believe Joan must have gone through a period of deep confusions, not to under-estimate it. 🙂" (Partial excerpt from: Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/three-paradigms-with-nondual-luminosity.html )
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
              AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA 2011 conversation:
              (12:48 AM) Thusness: lasttime comment is quite good but used in wrong situation
              many wants to come into buddhism and talk about simplicity and try to advice ppl not to over complicate matter
              (12:50 AM) AEN: oic..
              (12:50 AM) Thusness: this is a wrong approach
              simplicity is only realized after true certain realization
              (12:51 AM) AEN: ic..
              (12:51 AM) Thusness: do not come into Buddhism with this sort of mindset
              when our we see things with dualistic and inherent mind, there is no simplicity
              Have u seen and sutra that can be easily understood?
              🙂
              (12:53 AM) AEN: generally sutta that expounds prajna and insight cannot be understood easily.... thats why buddha said the dharma is only understood by the wise
              (12:57 AM) Thusness: from Avatamsaka sutra, heart sutra, lankavatara sutra, lotus sutra, Vimalakirti sutra, diamond sutra, perfect enlightenment sutra...
              i never come across any that is easy to understand
              so i just focus on one...lol
              heart sutra
              and it is already a big headache
              a sincere and serious practitioner should not come with a wrong mindset
              there is no easy way to overcome the inherent and dualistic view
              as much as we would like to...
              as for beacom, advice him not to see it that way
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              Mr. OMA
              Soh Wei Yu aight, l dont mean to oversimplify in the sense of dumbing it down. But there are differences on how people reach realization in terms of their study, readyness, teachings and so on. Of course studying and reflecting and attending teachings is very important.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Also, Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith shared this many times, this one a year ago:
"The point missed here is that bhumis do not refer to realizations, paths do. Bhumis are just measures of qualities.
In terms of awakened people, there is the path of seeing (first bhumi), and the path of cultivation (second through tenth). These two paths make up the ten bhumis. The path of no more learning is buddhahood.
The point is that when one has reached the path of seeing and entered the path of cultivation, buddhahood is inevitable, in some lifetime or another.
So, Dogen was pointing out something important. On the other hand, the realization of a buddha and that of a first stage bodhisattva are not really that different. They have realized the same emptiness. The difference is only the level of cultivation."
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1m

    Noah Starbuck
    Just one reference point among many - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=26401
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
    DHARMAWHEEL.NET
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
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    Larry Ottaway
    I’ve practiced Zen for over 40 years and find Kim’s approach extremely useful. Try it for yourself. Proof of the pudding and all that….
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    Mr. KOÖ
    Avoid at all costs. Nothing to be taken seriously.
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    Cesare Saguato
    Think you'll find this group interesting Steve Todd. Pragmatic Vajrayana, open discussions and emphasises on somatic experience. Continuing to look...
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        Steve Todd
        Cesare Saguato I’m very wary of groups or people that need to advertise their attainments - it goes against the grain of the tradition and the wisdom of “non-attainment”. It also reminds me of all the New Age charlatans. What was the vibe like in the group discussions?
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            Cesare Saguato
            Steve Todd yes I know but that is the argument that pragmatic approaches have, that not discussing certain traditionally taboo topics openly is less helpful than doing so. I watched a video from a sangha member talking about his experience and it seemed grounded and familiar. I'm not promoting this group, it's teachers or approach though, just that you might find it interesting as from the very little I read they emphasise somatic work within a vajrayana context. Rinpoche and Tsering have always instructed me that "visualisation" is more about the feeling than visual forms.
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            Steve Todd
            Cesare Saguato 🙏
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    Mr. UM
    I'm one of these 13 people and will gladly answer all questions but it might take a day or two until I come to find time to reply. In Pemako we use the term Buddhahood like it is used in Mahamudra or Dzogchen as the achievement of complete nonmeditation where the view of emptiness becomes uninterrupted. There's no being "in" and "out" of the nature of mind anymore, no sense of obscuration by thoughts, emotions or the foggy phenomena of the substrate mind. The dualistic tendency of the mind to "subjectify" itself is seen through.
    However to be a little bit more precise, this is just the first stage of Buddhahood. It's the attainment of the mind of a Buddha: Dharmakaya. This is not yet the attainment of the speech and the body of a Buddha. These are maturations of the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya bodies which ultimately lead to the Rainbow Body. That's a whole different field of practice which only opens up with emptiness realization.
    To finish this comment, I just want so say that I completely understand all hesitation and doubt regarding the Pemako method and these claims. Yet, honest and systematic doubt is a pillar of pragmatic Dharma and always calls for critical curiosity rather than uncritical condemnation. Thank you.
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    Yin LingAdmin
    I only read abit in the link above. The group might have good stuff to offer, just the word “buddhahood” is very heavy.
    I have the experience of what they described, but I swear I’m not any where near buddhahood. It would be completely delusional if I say so.
    It’s is abit like how daniel Ingram call himself Arahant …
    One can call themselves anything they want just the only danger is
    One might stop practising if they think they have reached “Buddha hood “ which means “no more meditation” needed.
    Human life can be wasted…
    If the person practise hard for another few months and experience changes or deepen, just keep going..
    It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages. How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore.
    Just imo.
    But I won’t close the door to their teachings, just like Daniel’s teachings and insights are very helpful too.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling do you think Buddhahood is possible in this life, or no? What about all the masters who attained it relatively early in their lives, in their 30s? I wonder if the fact that it seems heavy and far away to you reinforces that it can't be reached. What do you think?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK
            If I don’t think it is possible, I wouldn’t be here right 😅
            But If u read some of the masters’ biographies…
            Eg tsongkhapa.. (who is not even considered Buddha yet correct me if I’m wrong .)
            Or milarepa.
            You will understand what I mean 😂 when I read their biographies, I know I need many more lifetimes to reach what they reach when they are half my age.
            I’m confused about reality but not confused about my lack of calibre 😂
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            Cesare Saguato
            Mr. BK as far as I've come to understand, traditionally speaking, when it's taught that the Vajrayana provides a path for Buddhahood to be realised in this life, it isn't referring to everyone but those with the highest capacity, moreover most of the people who fall into that category realise Buddhahood as part of the death process, when the ground luminosity is laid bare and recognised due to familiarisation through practice in this life or it is realised in the bardo. As the next life hasn't yet begun, it's said the practitioner has realised Buddhahood in this lifetime. That's not to say I don't think it's theoretically possible to realise Buddhahood before death, because I think it is but it also depends on what one means by Buddhahood too as there are different understandings like Mr. UM has mentioned. To become a Buddha or realise emptiness is one thing, to purify a Buddha field and fully develop the Svabhavikakaya is another.
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            Mr. BK
            Cesare Saguato yes merit or karmic readiness plays a role but if you are a person frequenting groups like AtR and are reading books about Dzogchen etc it is safe to say that you have approximately enough merit to seriously consider trying to attain Buddhahood in this life. It's really just a matter of being open to it, or being ready, and deciding that it is what you want. Once that is done, it can be attained by anyone with the right amount of determination.
            Perhaps these days enlightenment at death is more common, but historically it has been done within the lifetime and actually quite quickly. Padmasambhava had 25 disciples who attained in their lifetime. Dudjom Lingpa had 12 and he lived in middle of nowhere Tibet. And that's just scratching the surface. It's really just the modern mindset and lack of faith in dharma that make people think it is some impossible or very far away thing. This is the meaning of merit. If you think it is some far away thing for very special people not like you, then you are not open or ready to consider that it is possible for you to do in this lifetime. But if you are ready to consider it is possible and believe in your ability to do so, the path is wide open to you.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling If I may say..I think you are underestimating your potential. Milarepa and Tsongkhapa were not special beings above the rest of us. We all share that same potential. The teachings to attain full Buddhahood are out there in this world, right now, and anyone who truly wants to can attain it in this life. If I were an Awakening to Reality practitioner I would want to know, does this path lead to full Buddhahood and if so how?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK haha no I’m not underestimating my potential. 😂 I have the same potential as them, and like any other sentient.
            i just do not have 1% of Milarepa or tsongkhapa caliber. But that’s my own view. I’m not trying to be humble here. 😜
            If someone can answer u ur last Q, they must have achieve that already. If not why would u trust them?
            But the realisation are not a myth.
            The realization this group above is talking about can be reached , just knowing that is enough :. But that is really not buddhahood.
            Like.. come on now. lol.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling When you say "that is really not buddhahood" what do you mean? What is not buddhahood? What is Buddhahood to you?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK I mean what they describe above in their experience of labelling those 13 ppl as first level Buddha is really not Buddhahood
            If it is I am a Buddha already and there’s many Buddhas in this group 😂😂😂But it’s ok if u like to think that too; as long as it is wholesome for ur practice. 🙂
            I need to go to bed to try to wake up to practise tmr coz I’m not at “no more learning” yet 😅
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling What do you call dharmadatu, the extinction of all phenomena, or realization of emptiness of all phenomena, if not the first stage of Buddhahood? Or are you saying you think they are wrong/not telling the truth and they have not attained dharmadatu emptiness of all phenomena?
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        Mr. BK
        And are you saying that you and others in this group have attained emptiness of all phenomena? That is fully realizing Sunyata. If you have done that, I believe that makes you a first stage Buddha.
        I am just trying to be clear about what exactly you mean. Thanks for your replies.
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Mr. DL
Author
Yin Ling I think using names to call yourself an Arahant or Jnani or whatever is fine, as long as you are literate in how the term is used, both scripturally and experientially. I.e. in terms of knowledge and experience.
I understand what you mean about people using names though to say they are "done". The other side of the coin is using experiences to say you are "done". So, you have to watch for both ways. It's easy to be led astray either way.
It's fine to use names as long as you understand it's mostly an aesthetic preference, like people giving themselves Tibetan or Sanskrit names. Is it annoying? Yeah, kinda.
But I think all lineage stuff has that problem: robes, names, bells, all the paraphernalia of lineage -- people rely way too much on that as a "sign" of realization. That's one reason why the style of the avadhuta (Tib. nyonpa) arose -- to show that realization *can* appear quite "at ease" with some of the least virtuous/moral aspects of samsaric existence. Even, immersed in it and happily so.
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Nafis Rahman
Mr. BK
Shardza Rinpoche (Bon Dzogchen teacher presumed to have realized rainbow body):
“Once the practice of self-arising/self-liberated is stable and automatic, the practitioner has begun the third and final map—the path of liberation that starts with the practice of self-arising/ self-liberated and has the final endpoint of stable enlightenment or complete liberation. This third set of teachings on the path to complete liberation includes the practice of dharmadhatu exhaustion, specific to exhausting ripening karmic propensities and afflictive emotions; sleep and dream yoga; the practice of Inner Fire to purify the residual substantiality of the physical body; the practice of the various levels of by-passing visions to purify ordinary perception and to bring about the complete exhaustion of impure perceptions; the practice of external appearances as illusions or dreams; direct manifestation of Buddha fields; the experiences of many realms and times all-at-once; and the experience of the final realizations, like the fruition of the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment, the five primordial wisdoms, omniscience, and the manifestation of inexhaustible enlightened activities toward all beings.”
The criteria for Buddhahood has always involved omniscience along with dissolving cognitive obscurations/actualizing twofold emptiness (such as manifesting an illusionary body) in addition to being free from emotional obscurations/10 fetters attained upon Arhatship.
*The Nine things an Arahant cannot do: 1. Store up possessions, 2. Intentionally kill any form of life, 3. Steal, 4. Perform sexual intercourse, 5. Tell a deliberate lie, 6. Act improperly out of desire, 7. Act improperly out of ill-will, 8. Act improperly out of delusion, 9. Act improperly out of fear (from Anguttara Nikaya 9.7)
Unless someone from Pemako can demonstrate that they are an omniscient being, it’s very misleading to label themselves as having attained Buddhahood. Realization of twofold emptiness is merely 1st bhumi out of 16.
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    Mr. BK
    Mr. OMA
    I have been a part of the sangha for four years, if people feel like reaching out or wonder something spesific l am happy to try to answer to the best of my knowledge 🙂
    Kim gives pointers in every teaching, so if one feels drawn to this system and practices one can attend and investigate by oneself.
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Yin Ling Yes. I like Daniel Ingram's sharing of dharma and he clearly has insight into anatta. But I do not agree that his description of the 4 paths line up with sutta version as explained in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
    According to suttas and sutras, an arahant is free from the slightest trace of the following afflictions, and also the 8th bhumi bodhisattva is likewise free from the famous ten fetters, and the following afflictions:
    appropriation (of any phenomena in terms of I-me-mine)/clinging/grasping/attachment (Upādāna), possessiveness, anxiety, fear (an arahant can fall from a 10 floor building and experience 0 fear, see: https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=397 ), sorrow (see: http://www.suttas.com/dhammapada-chapter-7-verse-90--99... and so on), anger, jealousy, desire (for: sensual pleasures, for form realm jhanic phenomena, for formless realm jhanic phenomena, for being, for non-being), depression, greed (lobha), hate (dosa), delusion (moha), conceit (māna), wrong views (micchāditthi), doubt (vicikicchā), torpor (thīnaṃ), restlessness (uddhaccaṃ), shamelessness (ahirikaṃ), recklessness (anottappaṃ)[7], all forms of I/me/mine-making.
    This means if these afflictions arise even for 0.1 second, that by definition mean you cannot be an arahant in accordance to the sutta/sutras/scriptures/Buddha's words, or an 8th bhumi bodhisattva.
    It should also be noted that you can be far away from 8th bhumi or arahant and yet most of those afflictions have vanished, or there are only faint traces of these, or maybe they arise even for 0.1 second in a year and then vanish, but by definition if they arise even a little bit or for a little while, it means you have not attained arahantship or 8th bhumi. If any of the above afflictions arise "for a moment but they self-liberate", then by definition you are not yet an arahant, or an 8th bhumi bodhisattva.
    Also some of those afflictions listed above totally vanish even at stream entry: wrong views and doubt. Some of them disappear completely at anagami, such as sensual desire (kāmacchando) and ill will. Some of them disappear completely at arahantship, such as conceit (māna)[11][12], restlessness (uddhacca)[13], ignorance (avijjā)[14]. I would also say it is super unlikely for some of those afflictive states above, such as depression, to arise even for someone at stream entry, although I will not make universal claims on its possibility.
    Also, I remember clearly Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith said that all teachings in Buddhism, Dzogchen included, holds Enlightenment [full enlightenment] to be the complete elimination of the twin obscurations of afflictive and knowledge obscurations. John Tan and I totally agree with this, and also this is indeed consistent throughout Buddhism.
    Likewise even in Mahamudra, which I like very much, it is also stated as such, the first paragraph describing the Yoga of Non-Meditation states:
    "Once the two obscurations, the afflictive and the cognitive, have become fundamentally purified, this is the most excellent elimination. No longer able to say, “This is formal meditation time and this is post meditation time,” one has become the all-encompassing purity of the spontaneously perfect three kayas, and thus this constitutes the most excellent realization.
    Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 287). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
    -- A must read Mahamudra book.
    It should be noted that if all of those afflictions do not arise in your experience for 99.9% of your daily life experience or even 99.99999% of your daily living experience, but they arise for 0.000001% of your daily life experience, that means you have definitely Not attained arahantship because the latent tendencies, the traces are still there. They just haven't activated most of the time because 1) the secondary conditions [situations] have not manifested to activate those traces, and 2) possibly due to your practice and insight, those traces and afflictions have become attenuated, so they don't arise so uncontrollably. But they are not completely gone yet.
    Whereas, the arahants, according to Buddha, have eliminated those traces of afflictions, according to the sutta here:
    And I will quote Buddha directly, partial excerpts:
    https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/.../alagaddupama.../
    The Arahant
    “This monk is called one who has removed the crossbar, has filled the moat, has broken the pillar, has unbolted (his mind); a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.
    “And how, monks, is that monk one who has removed the cross-bar? Herein the monk has abandoned ignorance, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus has he removed the cross-bar.
    “And how, monks, is that monk one who has filled the moat? Herein the monk has abandoned the round of rebirths, leading to renewed existence; he has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.
    “And how has he broken the pillar? He has abandoned craving, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.
    ...
    https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi?reference=none...
    ....
    “But, Mālunkyāputta, in what way do you remember the five lower fetters as taught by me?”
    “Venerable sir, I remember identity view as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember doubt as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember adherence to rules and observances as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember sensual desire as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember ill will as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. It is in this way, venerable sir, that I remember the five lower fetters as taught by the Blessed One.”
    “Mālunkyāputta, to whom do you remember my having taught these five lower fetters in that way? Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him. Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with this simile of the infant?”
    ....
    “There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that someone, by relying on that path, on that way, shall know and see and abandon the five lower fetters—this is possible. Just as, when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is possible that someone shall cut out its heartwood by cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is possible.
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        1hEdited

Mr. KS
Soh Wei Yu but where are the arahats? And how to know about their lost of fetters?
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Chappell Isom
Soh Wei Yu How can one have the fetter of conceit while also having anatta realization?
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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Chappell Isom See http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../early-buddhism...

Excerpt:

Regarding conceit, well, I've already spoken a little about it recently so I'll just cut and paste it here:

Many people translate the fetter of conceit as 'pride', however, the fetter of conceit is not just in the sense of being 'proud'. I mean, pride etc is definitely a fetter. But also some people can be very humble, yet it does not mean they have overcome their 'I Am conceit'.

The 'I Am conceit' is more specifically described as a kind of trace, like a stench left over in a jug when the contents of the jug has been poured away. That trace of self remains after realization of anatta and then one has to liberate even that trace itself. That liberation of trace is Arahantship. This is clearly described in the Khemaka Sutta.

The Buddha said: Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires (i.e. anagami); But the abolition of the conceit "I am" (i.e. arahantship) — That is truly the supreme bliss.

Also, the Buddha said:

“The noble ones have seen as happiness

The ceasing of identity.

This [view] of those who clearly see

Runs counter to the entire world.

“What others speak of as happiness,

That the noble ones say is suffering;

What others speak of as suffering,

That the noble one know as bliss.”

So what is the difference between the 'view of self' and the 'trace of self'?

As Thusness wrote to me in 2011:

Session Start: 29 March 2011

Thusness: yeah of course

AEN: Ic

Thusness: if u do not feel the 'body construct' and 'mind construct', just the play of dharma, how does the sense of self arise?

AEN: It doesnt

Thusness: yeah...

Thusness: for me, it is just this dependent originated activity...

Thusness: primordially pure and luminous

Thusness: sense of self does not arise

Thusness: i do not see 'body' or 'mind'

Thusness: for there is no agent

Thusness: for u by now u should be clear on this

Thusness: experientially

Thusness: otherwise, u will not feel the 'process'

AEN: Ic..

Thusness: u told me about the mini maha experience

Thusness: so u should not feel the sense of self

AEN: Yea

Thusness: logically when the agent is gone, the primary cause for these sense of self should also be gone

Thusness: however due to the deeper dispositions, it continues to linger

Thusness: when u engage in this modern world, it re-enfore the identity

Thusness: so by seeing there is no-self in anatta, the sense of self should also dwindle

AEN: Ic

Thusness: when u practice and there is mind body drop

Thusness: due to de-construction of body and mind

Thusness: there is only purity of sensations

Thusness: it is just a lingering trace

Thusness: how does the sense of self arise?

Thusness: and that means it is simply a dispositions

Thusness: and during daily activity, there is re-enforcing of this trace

Thusness: when there is no agent, this trace will be seen as it is

Thusness: in non-dual and one mind, this is not just a trace

Thusness: u may have trace of identity

Thusness: but 'Self' (comments: self-view; that a truly existing self/Self exists) is not a trace

Thusness: it is as if it is truly 'there' and all there is

Thusness: but anatta is different

Thusness: for everything is like a trace

Thusness: and self is not any more special that an arising sound

Thusness: no diff

Thusness: can u understand the difference?

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Early Buddhism's Model of Awakening

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Soh Wei Yu

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"There is the self that arises from conceptual reification, seeing through that with anatta insight is entry point.

There is the self that arises in marketplace, in day to day activities, anatta of that is graduation." - John Tan, 2018

Also:

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"

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Soh Wei Yu

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Mr. KS There is a book where they supposedly interviewed living arahants, but those arahants chose to be interviewed anonymously. Arahants, if they exist today, are generally monks and renunciants. They are likely secluded and in retreats, although they can possibly be teachers. I have speculated that it is possible for Ajahn Brahmavamso to be an arahant a few months ago when someone asked, but it is just a wild guess and I can definitely be wrong.

Soh Wei Yu
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I believe this is the book but I haven't really read it. https://www.amazon.com.au/Entering-Stream.../dp/1781792046
AMAZON.COM.AU
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
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Soh Wei Yu
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The Buddha taught that this is a way to test if someone is an arahant - a good read:
https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
SuttaCentral
SuttaCentral
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    More in following post:
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Yin Ling Also I like what you said here: "It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages. How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore."
    I will add on these two sentences cos they are really two parts:
    'It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages.'
    This is good and has been the approach of John Tan so far. Me too, but I speak about stages when people request or there is a necessity to clarify things. Likewise, John Tan said many times he really does not like to talk about bhumis, paths to arahant, and so on. He never thinks in terms of these. But out of necessity, due to so many misunderstandings online about 'stream entry' and so on, this year he advised me to place this article to the top of AtR reading list as it clarifies much misunderstandings: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
    Furthermore, there is really a need to clarify the subtlety of insights. Someone even at I AM level can claim to have an unshakeable insight or stable samadhi in the I AM. It also depends on the depth of his insight and samadhi. Greg Goode said that at mature phase or Transparent Witness, what AtR calls I AM with the maturity of four aspects, at that point there is already no more mental suffering. John Tan and I agree that with thorough deconstruction one will be free from mental suffering, even at such phase. But this not yet nondual or anatta realization, which are even more crucial realizations and insights but are distinct.
    Even in the nondual territority, there is really a need to clarify the subtleties, for example to point out clearly the difference between Stage 4 and 5, substantialist and nonsubstantialist nondual -- https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/7674846775890019/?__cft__[0]=AZXhVcVl1ZGYgJiriPwkLRM3VAoGX33lzG455RWD4M9G1vvU2bWX9betBGrHCRRKiNOXAuWrlLa5scNmyDD7ZlymleEs59FprGrq9wixjwRUm_bUgLuam650iwZHfOOFF93j3uhcvLztSolhvi1H8UC4YnhsrR1mD4B5cFVt8uQnfUpG5FBDxIXI8OEWTKR4Ims&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R
    Most people that got into nondual gets stuck at Stage 4, few proceed into what AtR calls anatta. And also anatta is not the end either.
    'How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore.'
    Yes indeed. After anatta, shortly after anatta in fact, usually one reaches no entry and exit for anatta. I wrote in the comments section of http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html :
    "It is common to have an experience, but rare to have realization. Yet it is the realization of anatta that stabilizes the experience, or makes it effortless. For example, in my case, after the realization of anatta has arisen and stabilized, I do not have the slightest trace or sense of subject/object division or agency for about 8 years, till now, and John Tan reports the same for the past 20+ years (he realised anatta in 1997 and overcame the trace of background in a year or so). It should be noted that overcoming subject/object division and agency (which happens even at Thusness Stage 5) does not mean other subtler obscurations are eliminated -- the complete elimination of this is full Buddhahood (a topic that is discussed in Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood chapter in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind)." That comment was in 2018, so now I can report that I can recall no trace of subject/object division or agency for the past 11+ years since my anatta breakthrough.
    But karmic dreams can still occur even if extremely rarely and much less intense (meaning no nightmares, just momentary graspings or contents of a karmic nature, etc), means with karmic contents or grasping. Even if they dramatically lessen. It depends on situations and life engagements. When one is totally liberated there is no more grasping, no more traces I-me-mine whatsoever throughout waking and sleep.
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        Yin LingAdmin
        Soh Wei Yu Thanks for these, very good.
        I don’t like to think of stages not bec I don’t believe in achieving them but I have been terribly wrong before following daniel Ingram classification of stream entry.
        The idea of “cessation” as stream entry is so so deluded lol. I have many cessations involuntarily due to the sort of practice I did, but it doesn’t change any of my perception.
        At that point before real insight my teacher tell me I have stream entry, i really believe it because How would I know what is insight if I have never have any insight before ?
        And then one is happy for no reason.. only after I keep on practicing intensely for another year when real insight of no self comes , I understand what’s what.
        The whole perception will change so drastically like one operate in another dimension lol.
        What if I stop practice at the first point?
        And think cesssstion is stream entry?
        That would have been such a waste of my human life .
        So I don’t want to call it anything now for 99% it’s gonna be overestimating myself 🤦🏻‍♀️
        So the point is, it’s not that I don’t think buddhahood is impossible (duh- then I might as well go karaoke then meditate)..
        But being honest and realistic and not have the head stuck in some cloud 9 is important.
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Soh Wei Yu

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Yin Ling

Yes. And it's not so much the word 'cessation' that is a problem but what cessation? Daniel/mctb/mahasi is teaching a non-analytical cessation -

this is not the same as Buddha's or Arahant's Nirvana in scriptures, which is an analytical cessation. This applies from Theravada to Zen, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Cessation

Subdivisions

Cessation is of two kinds:

analytical (Skt. pratisaṃkhyā-nirodha; Tib. སོ་སོར་བརྟགས་པའི་འགོག་པ་, sosor takpé gokpa, Wyl. so sor brtags pa'i 'gog pa) and

non-analytical (Skt. apratisaṃkhyā-nirodha; Tib. བརྟགས་མིན་འགོག་པ་, tak min gokpa, Wyl. brtags min 'gog pa).

In his commentary to Mipham Rinpoche’s Khenjuk, Khenpo Nüden writes:

Analytical cessation

This is the unconditioned aspect of the permanent elimination of destructive emotions and other factors to be eliminated, through the force of developing realization of the undefiling path, such as the wisdom of discernment, within the mind.

Non-analytical cessation

This does not refer to the ceasing of latent habitual tendencies as a result of analysis and investigation, but rather to the absence of a given thing in a particular place due to an incompleteness of necessary causes and conditions, as in the case of horns on a horse’s head, for instance. Another example which is mentioned in the commentaries is the fact that other types of consciousness do not arise when the eye-consciousness is distracted by a visual form. This also includes all the various forms of non-existence (or absence), such as the absence of a vase in a particular place.

RIGPAWIKI.ORG

Cessation - Rigpa Wiki

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Yin Ling
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Soh Wei Yu
Oh yes, no in mctb parlance they did not mean the above 2, just a “black out” or “fruition”.
It can give a retrospective understanding of how consciousness works imo because of the whole shut down outside and inside altogether .. but not the cutting through insight. Just imo, coz some ppl will place huge importance on that
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Soh Wei Yu
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Yin Ling In John Tan's parlance, we consider blackout cessations, or even nirvikalpa samadhis (sensory blankout into I AM Presence), as part of non-analytical cessations
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Having said all these it is important indeed not to 'close the door' to teachers like Daniel Ingram. They provide important teachings that John Tan and I appreciate very much.
    As for Pemako, likewise, I have resisted calls in the other FB group Dharma Connection to ban their accounts. I told the members I take a non interfering approach as an admin: people are welcome to post Pemako materials and people are also welcome to refute any of their claims or bring up topics for discussion, I will neither remove Pemako members nor the posts of those refuters. I believe Pemako engages in some advertising campaign regularly but I take a non interfering approach. But of course AtR group is different, no advertising is allowed here (one off posting is ok for discussion) as this group aims to be focused on AtR blog materials. (Pemako doesn't advertise here, I just mentioned it to clarify the group stance or policy)
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    i.e. even if I agree or disagree with aspects of Pemako discourses, some people may find benefit from it, have certain breakthroughs or insights from it, therefore I do not remove it from the Dharma Connection group.
    If it were a totally harmful cult that causes someone to enter an unwholesome path then I will remove. I think Pemako is not 'unwholesome' even though there may be aspects others do not agree with.
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Jason Vajra

I don't know about that group, but a good rule of thumb is that if someone claims they're enlightened, they obviously aren't.

Alejandro Serrano

Jason Vajra unless he is.

“I have destroyed those taints by which

I might have been reborn as a deva

or as a gandhabba that travels through the sky;

by which I might have reached the state of a yakkha,

or arrived back at the human state:

I have dispelled and cut down these taints.

As a lovely white lotus

is not soiled by the water,

I am not soiled by the world:

therefore, O brahmin, I am a Buddha.”

Edited

- Jason Vajra
  Alejandro Serrano When you have miraculous siddhis to back it up, like stopping rampaging elephants and murderers intent on taking your life and the other such things attributed to the Buddha, I may accept the claim isn't just hubris. I have yet to see anyone in the modern world claim enlightenment not acting out of ego.
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Nafis Rahman
Originally posted this reply in a sub-thread above
Shardza Rinpoche (Bon Dzogchen teacher presumed to have realized rainbow body):
“Once the practice of self-arising/self-liberated is stable and automatic, the practitioner has begun the third and final map—the path of liberation that starts with the practice of self-arising/ self-liberated and has the final endpoint of stable enlightenment or complete liberation. This third set of teachings on the path to complete liberation includes the practice of dharmadhatu exhaustion, specific to exhausting ripening karmic propensities and afflictive emotions; sleep and dream yoga; the practice of Inner Fire to purify the residual substantiality of the physical body; the practice of the various levels of by-passing visions to purify ordinary perception and to bring about the complete exhaustion of impure perceptions; the practice of external appearances as illusions or dreams; direct manifestation of Buddha fields; the experiences of many realms and times all-at-once; and the experience of the final realizations, like the fruition of the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment, the five primordial wisdoms, omniscience, and the manifestation of inexhaustible enlightened activities toward all beings.”
The criteria for Buddhahood has always involved omniscience along with dissolving cognitive obscurations/actualizing twofold emptiness (such as manifesting an illusionary body) in addition to being free from emotional obscurations/10 fetters attained upon Arhatship.
*The Nine things an Arahant cannot do: 1. Store up possessions, 2. Intentionally kill any form of life, 3. Steal, 4. Perform sexual intercourse, 5. Tell a deliberate lie, 6. Act improperly out of desire, 7. Act improperly out of ill-will, 8. Act improperly out of delusion, 9. Act improperly out of fear (from Anguttara Nikaya 9.7)
Unless someone from Pemako can demonstrate that they are an omniscient being, it’s very misleading to label themselves as having attained Buddhahood. Realization of twofold emptiness is merely 1st bhumi out of 16.
Added just now:
More importantly I have gone through the articles in their website, and what they describe as ‘emptiness’ is merely Advaita in disguise. The view and insight expressed is completely substantialist. Not even ATR stage 5/Anatta realization/MCBT 4th Path/Pali Canon Stream-Entry. What they describe as realizing anatta based upon their two-part formula is actually I AM and Impersonality. I usually don’t comment on these sorts of posts, but I think it’s important to clarify if anyone decides to attend their teachings. There is also the issue of being a self-declared rinpoche outside of standard lineages, lacking the ability to confer proper lungs and empowerments etc, but that is a different topic altogether.
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- Yin Ling
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  Nafis Rahman u said what i wanted to say but did not dare to, Nafis. thanks.
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- Soh Wei Yu
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  Nafis Rahman Interesting comment. I will neither confirm nor refute this comment because I will need to read Kim Katami's writings and listen more of his talks more to ascertain these statements for myself, especially on this part, "what they describe as ‘emptiness’ is merely Advaita in disguise". Even if I have ascertained them for myself, I shall not comment publicly because it is not good for me to comment on others. I also have become non confrontational over the years in my approach and try to speak skillfully based on conditions. As I wrote to Yin Ling, "...nowadays my approach is hopefully less confrontational, more on skillful means... i talk about god to christian mystic and point them towards to anatta, i talk about brahman and ramana to advaita followers and try to bring them into nondual, i try to point out to eckhart tolle and other spiritual teachers..." to which John Tan said, "That is good. Be skillful."
  But still, thanks for sharing your views.
  At this point, I cannot confirm whether Kim Katami is holding Vedantic or substantialist views opposed to anatman, dependent origination and shunyata. Maybe someone can private message me the details.
  But indeed, this is also why I kept sharing the same message many times with people (numerous people in just a few days!) clarifying for example, Stage 4 and 5 because it is so easy to get stuck at substantialist view, so many do, even in the nondual phase. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between...
  There is also a need to clarify the different faces and aspects of self/Self -- many people mistaken no-self to mean impersonality and non-doership alone, or substantialist nondual, but there are other aspects -- see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress... . Impersonality is not nondual, nondual is not anatta, impersonality is not I AM and I AM is not impersonality -- impersonality happens before and for many without I AM realization in Liberation Unleashed, even though both are important. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../is-liberation...
  Then for the Stage 6 emptiness, it is important to understand from dependent origination, using the rainbow analogy here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../emptiness-non...
  Until dependent origination, non-arising, illusoriness, everything becomes clear, like a rainbow and reflection, in view, experience, realisation.
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- Soh Wei Yu
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  Edited my post above.
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Mr. OMA
Nafis Rahman
To make a thing clear, 2pf is not anatta realization this is not what Kim or Pemako says. It is what you say, I Am or impersonality, or close to first path as Ingram describe it (l know Soh distinuish this too, but see it as first shift or breakthrough ). In Pemako if we have something corresponding to anatta it is 6th bhumi, and more proper 6th bhumi perfected, which means deepening of these first 6 inisght to a great degree.
But even that as far as l can see might differ in some aspect due to method and practice and l find it sort of hard to make parallell correspondings with say AtR path map, though l would say some similarities.
I think here in AtR one usually say anatta is 1st bhumi though, which again is different from Pemako. But 2pf is just a preliminary to get a taste and then something like anatta comes much later, that was my point
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Yin LingAdmin
Mr. OMA
Thanks. It’s good to follow the standard teaching and not have our own definitions of the Buddhas teaching.
Soh just posted another very good post on Buddhahood definition and criteria, hope u benefit
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13h
Mr. OMA
Yin Ling l saw the post, will look at it after work.
You dont know if Pemako and Kim uses its own definition or not though .. Pemako is missunderstood alot. Someone just said 2pf is anatta, Soh refered to Ugi post as one taste. Both of this is is simply wrong, no one says this and it is not written anywhere. It is not at all accurate description of the Pemako map. l dont try to be difficult, but what am l to say?
I am very aware that Pemako is different to most peoples understanding, but then this is my responsibility if l still want to practice and learn from Kim.
I also attend other teachings and read books and l follow f.ex AtR blog. If at some point Pemako would not deliver, l would be gone in an instant really.
Then it is other peoples responsibility that when they describe or try to understand the path, to do it properly, ask Kim ask me, attend teachings try the practices. If it is simply from the outside looking in one ends up in missunderstandings and can also misslead others. Sorry for being harsh, but felt it was needed now. Have a good day
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Yin LingAdmin
Mr. OMA
Yup agree that everyone should have their own discernment about following teachers. And take full consequences of one’s practice.
Be aware I have zero interested in both ATR nor pemako nor the Buddha’s teaching . I have never paid anyone here or there to teach me, so no invested interest to take side.
My interest is probably to shorten other ppls struggles in their practice. And maybe if I feel a practice will waste a lot of their time, I try to warn.
but if it’s not right for u, just take what I say as blah3 nonsense.
Because I won’t feel hurt not anything due to no invested interest hehe cheers.
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8h
Pablo Pintabona
Mr. OMA Yin Ling There was a previous exchange 6 months ago with Mr. UM about 2PF and I AM in this DhO thread. Me asuming that 2PF (a customized self-inquiry method) results in I AM with its particular proportions of Impersonality (+) and Luminosity (-). And he answering back that the experience/realisation varies in each individual, but that it's about a first taste of going beyond identification. Regarding Daniel Ingram's opinion, he speculated on another thread that 2PF is some sort of solidification of High-EQ pre-SE. https://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../mes.../message/23419003
DHARMAOVERGROUND.ORG
Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
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4h
Mr. OMA
Pablo Pintabona not everyone in the sangha uses 2pf, but get a first taste other ways. We had one practitioner in the sangha for a while who got to 2nd or 3rd path with daniel ingrams path, and he was pretty clear that 2pf was corresponding to his stream entry.
But it is as Ugi says, it varies. Some people have long honeymoon for months and even years (especially if you have practiced alot and have alot of momentum), with feeling little need to practice maybe for a while, while other have more dry ones. I had about two weeks after that first of being sort of baffled by the new way of experience the world, before l started looking into practices again and wanted to keep digging.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA Yes, I too gathered from Kim's website and blog over the past 1 or 2 days, how he maps I AM and Impersonality to bhumi 1 to 5 (this is different from AtR as you correctly indicated, which establishes 1st bhumi as this insight: "...The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition." ).
And he maps 6 to 9 (or 10?) as nondual, because he keeps mentioning one taste (i.e. http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../problems-with... , http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../about... ). But I did not read him elaborate so much on this. But I can see it refers to nondual.
Even here, about nondual, there is a need to thread very careful and distinguish clearly between substantial and insubstantial nonduality:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between...
For example the understanding taught by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh is the anatta sort of understanding and insight: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../sun-of-awareness...
On the other hand, Ken Wilber kept speaking about one taste, he distinguishes it from the I AM/Witness too. But his one taste is clearly the thusness stage 4, substantialist nondual sort of understanding. It is nondual, substantialist nondual, but not the same as anatta or Buddhist understanding, nor stream entry/first bhumi.
Ken Wilber's understanding is not the same as Mahamudra's one taste, although he thought it is the same. Note that I am not saying Kim Katami is having Ken Wilber's understanding, I am just saying there needs to be clarity and clarification on the distinctions.
Will paste a relevant passage next:
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Edited
Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu mhm.. if you are currious about Pemako map just ask me and l can try to help you hopefully too there will be a book this year of the people who have crossed all of it and their description of it.
Also, and this is sort of what l think would be best for you if you have plans to investigate it dome more. See if you can map yourself from that point of view, meaning apply the model on yourself. Not through reading but how we do it by searching your energy body, yogic style it can take a little time but its the best way and you will properly see what it is about. Can help you with that too if you like.
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Mr. OMA
Mentioning one taste l would say it is perfection of 8th bhumi, so its after anatta and waaay later than Ken Wilber territory.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
This description by Ugi is just the one taste of luminosity (not mahamudra one taste), not the anatta realisation. It is no different from Ken Wilber’s understanding. I hope there is clarification about the anatta insight as distinct from nondual insight:
Ugi
Dec '21
I’d like to take this opportunity to explain a very crucial point that is often made in the teachings of Dzogchen and Mahamudra. The importance of being able to differentiate between recognicing the clarity of Rigpa/nature of mind and the meditative experience of clarity.
In the picture below you can see the same forest in two pictures. The first one is rather blurry and the second one is very sharp.
When you recognise the nature of mind, a very common effect of that recognition is an enhanced clarity/sharpness of experience. Suddenly you’re not in forest 1 anymore but in forest 2.
You can pretty much objectively pinpoint to what constitutes that enhanced clarity/sharpness. More light, more pronounced edges, more distinguished colors …
However, that enhanced clarity is NOT the same as the clarity aspect of Rigpa. That’s where people go astray and get attached to the meditative experience of enhanced clarity/sharpness.
If you conclude that this experiential quality of sharpness IS Rigpa then you only fixate on another experience and concept. And then you try to reproduce that sharpness whenever you think you’re doing Atiyoga. Of course one can be successful in producing that sharpness at will and stay as long in it as one wants but that’s just concentration practice and not Atiyoga/nonmeditatin.
What then is the clarity aspect of Rigpa? Look at the two forests again below. Isn’t the visual experience of both forests instantly clear and known? Are you not clearly aware, without any words that forest 1 looks like forest 1, and forest 2 looks like forest 2? This clear awareness of that you see what you see, whether blurry or sharp, whether tired or highly alert, whether colourful or grey, that is the clarity aspect of Rigpa.
You cannot single it out as an experience but it permeates evenly and uninterruptedly all experience that takes place. It’s in the awareness of form aswell as in the awareness of absence of form. It’s not an “it” actually but it is inseparable from all “it-ness”. It has no location and no center, no here and no there.
The same by the way goes for the other two common meditative experiences that accompany recognition of mind essence: absence of thought and bliss.
I trust that this is helpful.
May all beings be free.�Ugi
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9h
Edited
Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu this is just to describe rigpa and distinguish it from other clearity states, has nothing to do with one taste.
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9h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
It will be interesting if anyone in Pemako sangha described this:
August 2010:
“(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example you see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.
(11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization
(11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
leave appearances alone:
The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
-Tilopa
this is very good
(11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
ask luckystrikes
(11:52 PM) AEN: ok posted
(12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.
(12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.
(12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta
(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness: what’s left in is the intensity of practice.
(12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness” (Scott Kiloby wrote more recently: https://www.kiloby.com/.../the-case-against-awareness-a...
…
[3:44 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
the Witness collapses after the gestalt of arisings are seen through in Direct Path. Objects, as you have already mentioned, should have been thoroughly deconstructed before. With objects and arisings deconstructed there is nothing to be a Witness of and it collapses.
1
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· 1m
[3:46 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Not true. Object and arising can also collapse through subsuming into an all encompassing awareness.
[3:48 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: yeah but its like nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: means after the collapse of the Witness and arising, it can be nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but still one mind
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: right?
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but then atmananda also said at the end even the notion of consciousness dissolves
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think thats like one mind into no mind but im not sure whether it talks about anatta
[3:50 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Yes.
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
where is the notion of "all encompassing awareness". Sounds like awareness is being reified as a container.
· Reply
· 5m
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
also when you say Consciousness dissolves, you have to first answer how did it ever exist in the first place?
· Reply
· 4m
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: lol
[4:01 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: In subsuming there is no container-contained relationship, there is only Awareness.
[4:03 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
So Soh Wei Yu
how does Awareness "remain"? Where and how?
· Reply
· 1m
[4:04 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Anyway this is not for unnecessary debates, if he truly understands then just let it be.
.....
KILOBY.COM
The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
"Yes. Subject and object can both collapsed into pure seeing but it is only when this pure seeing is also dropped/exhausted that natural spontaneity and effortlessness can begin to function marvelously. That is why it has to be thorough and all the "emphasis". But I think he gets it, so you don't have to keep nagging ." - John Tan
“The arising and ceasing is called the Transience,
Is self luminous and self perfected from beginning.
However due to the karmic propensity that divides,
The mind separates the ‘brilliance’ from the ever arising and ceasing.
This karmic illusion constructs ‘the brilliance’,
Into an object that is permanent and unchanging.
The ‘unchanging’ which appears unimaginably real,
Only exists in subtle thinking and recalling.
In essence the luminosity is itself empty,
Is already unborn, unconditioned and ever pervading.
Therefore fear not the arising and ceasing.
-------------
There is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.
The emptiness nature that is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.
Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence, its non-locality.
~ John Tan
And hence... "Awareness" is not anymore "special" or "ultimate" than the transient mind.”- 2008
…
“Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.
Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.
Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020
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8h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
Also, this insight of anatta described by Thich Nhat Hanh:
“
some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --
"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'."
"..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...."
"In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."
---------------- Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."
- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../sun-of-awareness...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
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Mr. OMA
I like what Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith said about rigpa too:
“Another interesting 'technical' point since this is DhO. There was a point in his retreat where Arcaya Malcolm Smith described how at the mature phase of Dzogchen practice, the 'vidya'/'rigpa' (the knowing/knowledge) is exhausted where the vidya and dhatu (something like knowing and field of experience) totally collapsed in a 1:1 synchrony (and he gestured two circles coming together), whereas before that point [the exhaustion of vidya] there is a sort of out of phase issue between vidya and dhatu. Somehow it really reminded me of one of Daniel's descriptions in MCTB on fourth path. His student Kyle did inform me that it is the same as what I call anatta realization [which I realised almost 10 years ago, it is the same as MCTB's fourth path]. Also, Malcolm mentioned many people have the wrong idea that Vidya/Rigpa is some eternal thing that just goes on forever, but it too is exhausted later along with all other phenomena [although this is not annihilation as appearances/pure vision still manifest] (elaboration: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../acarya-malcolm... )."
Likewise, Kyle Dixon, that Malcolm told me over dinner was the first student of his that totally understood his teaching, also said in 2014, "'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness." - Kyle
Kyle also shared with me,
‎[10/10/21, 1:12:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎‎Kyle Dixon:
Is primordial knowing a gloss of ye shes?
I assume so
Dzogchen will even go as far as to say Buddhas do not even have ye shes
Some Mahāyāna texts say this too
Because if they really had jñāna it could be misconstrued as a subjective reference point
…
‎[10/10/21, 1:57:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Kyle Dixon: Longchenpa:
From
the [ultimate] perspective the meditative equipoise of the realised (sa
thob) and awakened beings (sangs rgyas), there exists neither object of
knowledge (shes bya) nor knowing cognitive process (shes byed) and so
forth, for there is neither object to apprehend nor the subject that
does the apprehending. Even the exalted cognitive process (yeshes) as a
subject ceases (zhi ba) to operate.
[10/10/21, 1:59:33 PM] John Tan: (thumbs up)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
Awakening to Reality
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Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu read it before start seeing you dont actually post that much stuff, mostly repetative things
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
Yes i like to repost stuff if it gets the message across
Anyway my point is it will be good if pemako members wrote anything on this
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4h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
“Don’t reinvent the wheel”
I pasted the same stuff to thousands of people online
I will be dead if i need to rewrite everything each time
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4h

Reply to Nafis Rahman…
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  “Don’t reinvent the wheel”
  I pasted the same stuff to thousands of people online
  I will be dead if i need to rewrite everything each time
  4
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  1d
- Mr. OMA
  Soh Wei Yu I read the Thich Nhat Hanh text, its really lovely.
  I used to contemplate like this, and mind would get really waste to the point it started to frighten me and I would stop it few times. But it was a very intuitive way of thinking for a long time and still is.
  How I think about it now though is more like this: if this is, that is. Looking at the wall, there is the wall and the eyes, there would not be a wall without the sight or eyes, and the sight is conditioned by the wall, colors, light etc.. there is a subtle subject-object thing this implies though, but it is so subtle that it feels almost artificial (which I think, ultimately it is).
  To me then the next contemplation is; it is the same nature in me as in the wall, and so how I think about be and the wall as a kind of this-that, in essense is also conditioned on a obscured duality of kind?
  Not meaning the wall and Oskar is the same thing, but we do have the same nature (appearances are by nature dual), so its ok to say that these appearances share the same nature.
  So to me it seems necessary to get to the cessation of this whole thing, right?
  I have not though, so I cannot say where it would take me as and actual realization (I prefer talking about stuff I have confidence in through experience and realization), and I also dont think it would refute the this-that. That being said I wonder if you get to the cessation of this and that, is there dependency still? To me atm I think dependency will keep deepening in profoundity, Though at the same time this is empty, and there is no contradiction...
  I agree that it would be great if Pemako had a foot in the middle way camp and could maybe write or discuss like this more, both for us and for other, and I want to go there at some point but I dont feel ready yet.
  But then we d o have a path map, and the effect is really quick, there is no way around this.
  Like the negative emotions I have had has lessened to such an degree that it feels silly to do something else atm, like trying to understand nagarjuna for 3 hours one day vs practice for 3 hours ... would simply take too much time away from a practice I already know gives result. Might sound silly, but it is how I feel about it at least.
  It does not mean I dont value it or think it is not important, and as mentioned I try to attend teachings or see talks by teachers. But as mentioned, atm it feels more important to practice.
  But I appreciate the stuff you post, and especially DO is something that I keep comming back to.
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  21h
- Nafis Rahman
  Mr. OMA
  http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../ramana-eckhart...
  In this article they stated that Eckhart Tolle in on the bhumis despite having substantialist insights. Unfortunately it seems that their map lacks clarity regarding the differences between substantialist and non-substantialist non-duality.
  However even for insights such as I AM and One-Mind, one can experience a great deal of bliss and reduction of negative emotions. For example, Eckhart Tolle in his book Power of Now states:
  "I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.
  A beautiful Groundsel flower blossom shows the harmonious manifestation of nature
  That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world."
  There are similar descriptions in books by Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, etc. In many cases, practitioners have eliminated long-term depression and also anxiety disorders through these insights, although it might not be equivalent to anatta or emptiness. Decided to speak directly and post this comment since you seem sincere regarding spiritual practice and have a desire to reach the highest level possible.
  OPENHEARTOPENHEART.BLOGSPOT.COM
  Ramana, Eckhart Tolle and Bhumis
  Ramana, Eckhart Tolle and Bhumis
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  11h
- Nafis Rahman
  I usually don’t share personal experiences within the group, but this is a description of anatta for example that I wrote a long time ago while replying to someone else in pm:
  Even now I wouldn’t say I am is totally gone, instead the solidity has dissolved. Just the feeling of direct sensory experience without any sense of artificialness or an internal perceiver – after anatta it was just sound. Then it was being in a universe of sound. Now when I listen to music, it feels like it’s coming from inside me, as if I have become sound itself. So direct and intimate that it’s not possible to find any separation whatsoever even though I’m not exactly “sound”.
  I know this is completely different from what you are expecting from me, but “I” these days is just experienced as this universal manifestation. After total exertion, I really feel that I’m just a random speck in the universe, while being the universe itself simultaneously, this “I” now encompasses everything around me along with every experience possible. Who am I can’t be separated from just this glorious/ordinary process of life creating itself in every moment.
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- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  Nafis Rahman
  Yesterday I was listening to Eckhart Tolle.
  Eckhart tolle said when he published the power of now, there was one famous magazine review his book as “mumbo jumbo”
  He got deeply offended and cannot sleep for days then the magazine went downhill after that, and he dunno if there was any causation or correlation. It was quite funny when he related it.
  Anyway thought it was funny. Also Eckhart Tolle said before he got pissed off at a queue etc. it is good he is honest but i saw a post in dho where someone said eckhart tolle is like a literal fetter model arahant higher than all the other enlightened people around and not capable of any mental afflictions
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  10h
  Edited
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  But i like eckhart tolle books. Good for introduction. I always have a copy ready to give a friend, new people i meet etc
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  10h
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  Mr. OMA
  You don’t need to study nagarjuna to penetrate anatta. That becomes useful later for twofold emptiness. But for a start, for anatta, just focusing on bahiya sutta, the two stanzas of anatta ( http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../on-anatta-emptiness... ), what thich nhat hanh wrote here will lead to breakthrough:
  http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../sun-of-awareness...
  Practice must be focused on penetrating insight. Otherwise it is just shamatha and does not liberate.
  "At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness, you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru, properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called “the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization, or “the vajra mind view.”
  "Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."
  - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../self-liberation-by...
  John Tan commented on the above:
  [9:14 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: This is not just mere experience.
  [9:15 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: It sees through the conventions and analysis and realized the emptiness of these conventions...
  [7:52 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Until the meditator or agent disappears for good.
  [7:53 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Few integrate total exertion and DO into anatta (except Dogen) as the right view, pretty sad.
  [7:54 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: But there r some articles that r really good by some tibetan masters.
  [7:58 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: which articles?
  [8:02 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: I was scanning through our blog and found one article u posted about resting in the 6 senses. Forgotten by which karmapa.
  [8:03 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oh.. this one https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../self...
  [8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: U r good at finding
  [8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Next time I can just ask u...
  [8:05 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Lol
  - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-royal-seal-of...
  Regarding cessation, see below comments:
  AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
  On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
  On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
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  Edited
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  What should be aimed for is analytical cessation of the two obscurations, rather than a state of non analytical cessation as I said yesterday or two days ago:
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- Soh Wei Yu
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- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
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  9h
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  The true cessation of an arahant is atamayatta, see:
  http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/05/atammayata_27.html
  More lengthy explanations were made by Ajahn Amaro
  AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
  Atammayata
  Atammayata
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- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  Lastly someone who truly realizes the Buddhadharma will come to this realization eventually:
  “For you, emptiness seen as dependent arising
  does not render as contradictory
  emptiness of self-nature and ability to function.
  .
  To hold to the opposite, however--
  that with emptiness there can be no function
  and with function, no emptiness--
  is to fall into a dangerous trap.
  .
  In your teachings, therefore,
  knowledge of dependent arising is highly praised,
  but it will not be known
  to views of self or nonexistence.
  .
  Nondependence, you have said, is like the sky flower.
  Nondependence, therefore, does not exist.
  Anything existent by its own nature
  contradicts existence by cause and circumstance.
  .
  Nothing is not dependently arising;
  nothing, therefore, is not empty of self-nature.
  Self-nature, you said, cannot be destroyed.
  Phenomena, therefore, possessed of nature,
  would render nirvana impossible.”
  - partial excerpt from https://www.lamayeshe.com/.../praise-dependent-origination
  Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith likewise said
  “Just study Tsonghapa's praise to dependent origination. You will be unable to find in it a single fault.”
  This teaching is also in all schools including Mahamudra.
  “EMPTINESS DEVIATING TO THE BASIC NATURE
  Timeless Deviation to the Nature of Knowables The meditation of inseparable phenomena and emptiness is called “emptiness endowed with the supreme aspect.” Not knowing how emptiness and interdependence abide in nonduality, you decide that emptiness is a nothingness that has never existed and that is not influenced at all by qualities or defects. Then you underestimate the cause and effect of virtue and vice, or else lapse exclusively into the nature of all things being originally pure, primordially free, and so forth. Bearing such emptiness, the relative level of interdependence is not mastered. In this respect, this is what is known as mahamudra: one’s basic nature is unoriginated and, since it is neither existent nor nonexistent, eternal nor nil, true nor false, nor any other such aspects, it has no existence whatsoever. Nonetheless, its unceasing radiance arises as the relative level of all kinds of interdependence, so it is known as emptiness having the core of interdependence and interdependence having the nature of emptiness. Therefore, emptiness does not stray to the nature of knowables. In the Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way it is said: Anything that doesn’t arise dependently Is a phenomenon that has no existence. Therefore anything that is not empty Is a phenomenon that has no existence. And as said in the Commentary on Bodhichitta: It is taught that the relative plane is emptiness, And emptiness alone is the relative plane.” – The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume 2, Khamtrul Rinpoche
  LAMAYESHE.COM
  In Praise of Dependent Origination
  In Praise of Dependent Origination
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- Mr. OMA
  Soh Wei Yu l have had this experience, l uses to have bahiya sutta in the back of my mind for a long time. I think l told you about it. If you like l can give a more thorow overview and send it to you on e-mail if you like. I have read AtR for a while, and might be able to draw some lines that is helpfull
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- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  Mr. OMA
  Which experience?
  By the way anatta is not an experience.
  AtR emphasize the distinction between view, experience and realization.
  I don’t want to sound like a broken record repeating via copy pasting, but are you familiar with the distinction between the experience of no mind and realising the dharma seal of anatta? My first glimpse of no mind occurred in 2006, four years before I even realised I AM in feb 2010 and there had been many glimpses since, it only became stabilized and a 24/7 natural state experience after anatta realisation which occurred in october 2010.
  I think I’ll just paste something anyway:
  http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-is-dharma...
  Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
  Wrote in 2018：
  "If someone talks about an experience he/she had and then lost it, that's not (the true, deep) awakening... As many teachers put it, it's the great samadhi without entry and exit.
  John Tan: There is no entry and exit. Especially for no-self. Why is there no entry and exit?
  Me (Soh): Anatta (no-self) is always so, not a stage to attain. So it's about realisation and shift of perception.
  John Tan: Yes
  As John also used to say to someone else, "Insight that 'anatta' is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless' mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always been so, no I. In seeing, always only seen, in hearing always only sound and in thinking, always only thoughts. No effort required and never was there an 'I'.""
  Also：
  Differentiate Wisdom from Art
  Replying to someone in Rinzai Zen discussion group, John Tan wrote recently:
  “I think we have to differentiate wisdom from an art or a state of mind.
  In Master Sheng Yen’s death poem,
  Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
  In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
  Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
  Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)
  This "Originally there never was any 'I'" is wisdom and the dharma seal of anatta. It is neither an art like an artist in zone where self is dissolved into the flow of action nor is it a state to be achieved in the case of the taoist "坐忘" (sit and forget) -- a state of no-mind.
  For example in cooking, there is no self that cooks, only the activity of cooking. The hands moves, the utensils act, the water boils, the potatoes peel and the universe sings together in the act of cooking. Whether one appears clumsy or smooth in act of cooking doesn't matter and when the dishes r out, they may still taste horrible; still there never was any "I" in any moment of the activity. There is no entry or exit point in the wisdom of anatta.”
  Labels: Anatta, Zen Master Sheng-yen 1 comments | |
  Soh wrote in 2007 based on what John Tan wrote:
  First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
  To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically.
  John Tan adds: "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."
  Labels: Anatta |
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  Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
  Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
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  Soh Wei Yu l must to sit down and look on all this later. Back and forth doing things and writing on the bus or when having break, but thanks.
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  Session Start: Sunday, August 31, 2008
  (2:08 PM) Thusness: wah u wrote so much about one taste.
  (2:08 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
  (2:10 PM) AEN: huh where
  (2:10 PM) AEN: lol
  (2:10 PM) AEN: i just updated my post
  (2:10 PM) AEN: removed some part and added some part
  (2:10 PM) Thusness: every place.
  (2:11 PM) Thusness: next time must do a constant check on the url awakeningtoreality.
  (2:11 PM) Thusness: One Taste here and there...kok ur head
  (2:11 PM) AEN: orh u mean google haha
  (2:11 PM) AEN: i tot u mean sgforums
  (2:11 PM) Thusness: yeah. Although ken wilber experience is non-dual, it is not exactly One Taste yet.
  (2:11 PM) AEN: oic y
  (2:11 PM) AEN: one taste include emptiness?
  (2:12 PM) Thusness: yes din i tell u?
  (2:12 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:13 PM) Thusness: The non-duality of advaita sort of understanding is different from buddhism.
  (2:13 PM) Thusness: how could one reaches the phase of One Taste without understanding the emptiness nature?
  (2:14 PM) Thusness: The One Taste realisation is of 2 parts: No object/subject split and both object/subject are empty of any inherent existence.
  (2:15 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:15 PM) Thusness: Penetrating these 2 aspects, insight arises of the One Taste.
  (2:15 PM) Thusness: Since when did i tell u about Advaita sort of understanding is non-dual of Buddhism?
  (2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:16 PM) Thusness: So many times I told u it is the empty nature that Buddha came to teach us, not only the luminosity aspect.
  (2:16 PM) Thusness: The non-dual luminous nature is described all over the Vedas
  (2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:17 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
  (2:18 PM) Thusness: Anyone not talking about the 3 seals, understanding the anatta sort of non-duality is not talking about Buddhism.
  (2:19 PM) Thusness: anyone that lead to the understanding of Brahman is deluded in Buddhist perspective. The One Mind, the One Reality is the non-inherent in nature.
  (2:19 PM) Thusness: it should not be understood from a dualistic and inherent perspective.
  (2:19 PM) AEN: oic but ken wilber talk about brahman meh
  (2:20 PM) Thusness: Yes.
  (2:20 PM) AEN: oic
  (2:21 PM) Thusness: Therefore the experience is non-dual but the insight isn't.
  (2:21 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:23 PM) AEN: so next time i shld show them the charlie singer article instead
  (2:23 PM) Thusness: Charlie still need further refinement but it is already very good.
  (2:24 PM) Thusness: There are not many good articles.
  (2:24 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:24 PM) Thusness: Many do not have the clarity of the differences
  (2:25 PM) Thusness: They are unable to discern correctly the difference. In terms of experience and insight.
  (2:25 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:25 PM) Thusness: U have to be careful when telling ppl.
  (2:25 PM) Thusness: Fortunately u always quoted the bahiya sutta...haahah
  (2:26 PM) AEN: oic.. haha
  (2:26 PM) Thusness: it is both.
  (2:26 PM) AEN: wat u mean both
  (2:26 PM) Thusness: both non-dual in terms of experience and insight
  (2:26 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:28 PM) AEN: the insight means theres insight into emptiness
  (2:28 PM) AEN: ?
  (2:28 PM) Thusness: yes
  (2:28 PM) Thusness: so far the best to me is still Ajahn Amaro. In terms of practical insight and experience.
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: Clear and precise.
  (2:29 PM) AEN: oic
  (2:29 PM) AEN: but u said his e book not so gd?
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: But that 'source' must be fully replaced with DO.
  (2:29 PM) AEN: oic
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: yes.
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: That is the only problem.
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: But he is still not wrong.
  (2:29 PM) AEN: why not wrong
  (2:29 PM) Thusness: The "I" is just a luminous clarity.
  (2:30 PM) Thusness: In his mind, there is no sense of independence but still not thorough.
  (2:30 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:31 PM) Thusness: Means he knows what Awareness is exactly. Therefore when he said "I AM", u should not mistake him as referring to that stage 1.
  (2:31 PM) Thusness: Though to him it is the same.
  (2:32 PM) Thusness: But he is using it as if a practitioner has understood the full insight of emptiness and non-duality
  (2:32 PM) Thusness: It is not the same.
  (2:32 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:32 PM) Thusness: But to him, he is not aware of that point.
  (2:32 PM) Thusness: It is not obvious to him.
  (2:32 PM) Thusness: That is my opinion.
  (2:33 PM) AEN: he is not aware of what
  (2:33 PM) Thusness: That the experience of "I AM" is different.
  (2:33 PM) AEN: but u said in the ebook is still quite dualistic rite
  (2:33 PM) Thusness: yes
  (2:33 PM) AEN: i tink he said something like oil and water
  (2:33 PM) AEN: are separate
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  (2:33 PM) Thusness: yes
  (2:33 PM) Thusness: i will talk about that later.
  (2:34 PM) Thusness: means he cannot rest in the phenomena...
  (2:34 PM) Thusness: the arising and ceasing
  (2:34 PM) Thusness: why so?
  (2:34 PM) Thusness: because of certain 'block' still.
  (2:34 PM) Thusness: that 'block' must be completely gone.
  (2:35 PM) Thusness: sames goes to Charlie Singer
  (2:35 PM) Thusness: Seems almost there but not there.
  (2:35 PM) AEN: why not
  (2:35 PM) Thusness: Don't go everywhere say that i say hah...
  (2:35 PM) Thusness: The mirror is still there.
  (2:36 PM) Thusness: what is appearance to him?
  (2:36 PM) Thusness: seems like awareness yet not.
  (2:36 PM) Thusness: seems like merely a reflection
  (2:36 PM) Thusness: apparition
  (2:36 PM) Thusness: of a mirror
  (2:37 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:37 PM) AEN: but we can use that analogy for its emptiness?
  (2:37 PM) Thusness: yes but unfortunately in terms of experience, it is not
  (2:38 PM) Thusness: means the nature of an arising is not thoroughly experienced.
  (2:38 PM) Thusness: and he is right.
  (2:38 PM) Thusness: one needs to go through until this nature is fully and completely understood.
  (2:38 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:40 PM) Thusness: What are the 2 truths of egolessness about?
  (2:40 PM) AEN: emptiness of self and phenomena?
  (2:40 PM) Thusness: yes
  (2:40 PM) Thusness: subject and object
  (2:40 PM) Thusness: if there is no background, no "ITness" to be found as 'Self/self'
  (2:41 PM) Thusness: and there is no 'ITness' to be found in object or attributes
  (2:41 PM) Thusness: 'What is' is mere Appearances
  (2:42 PM) Thusness: there is no 'redness' in flower or any 'ITness' found anywhere
  (2:42 PM) Thusness: both as 'Self' and 'Object' of identification
  (2:42 PM) Thusness: So what is there?
  (2:43 PM) AEN: awareness as appearances?
  (2:43 PM) Thusness: Yes.
  (2:43 PM) Thusness: There is only appearances
  (2:43 PM) Thusness: and we do not know that this Appearance is our Buddha Nature in real time.
  (2:44 PM) Thusness: There is a 'block' because the direct experience is not strong and thorough enough.
  (2:44 PM) Thusness: There will come a time when total clarity dawn, there is no more doubt.
  (2:45 PM) Thusness: Because of this 'Block', there is still traces of an independent 'I'.
  (2:45 PM) Thusness: And there is no One Taste.
  (2:45 PM) AEN: oic..
  (2:47 PM) Thusness: Think I will write my opinion about it.
  (2:47 PM) AEN: okie
  (2:48 PM) Thusness: Actually I do not like to comment on these articles because it often leads to disputes and arguments.
  (2:48 PM) Thusness:
  (2:48 PM) AEN: no la
  (2:48 PM) AEN: dun tink it will
  (2:48 PM) AEN: our forum like v quiet
  (2:48 PM) AEN: haha
  (2:48 PM) Thusness: ahaha...
  (2:49 PM) Thusness: it is for practice sake
  (2:49 PM) Thusness: for experience sake
  (2:49 PM) Thusness: not to create noise in ur forum
  (2:49 PM) AEN: icic..
  (2:51 PM) Thusness: have u finished reading 'The Sun, My Heart'?
  (2:53 PM) AEN: nope
  (2:53 PM) AEN: i read slowly one leh
  (2:53 PM) AEN: maybe one chapter or less a day
  (2:53 PM) AEN: haha
  (2:53 PM) AEN: thats why i always take a long time to finish a bk
  (2:53 PM) AEN: u wan to get from me isit
  (2:55 PM) Thusness: yeah
  (2:55 PM) Thusness: how is it?
  (2:55 PM) Thusness: have u read it?
  (2:57 PM) AEN: not a lot yet
  (2:57 PM) AEN: i think shld be quite gd
  (3:03 PM) AEN: namdrol also recommend clarifying the natural state for mahamudra "
  Must reads are Clarifying the Natural State and Moonlight, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation. As for Buddhist magazines, I can't really say any of them are particularly bad or good-- they are for the most part lineage marketing material; and in the case of Tricycle, it is aimed at Barnes and Nobles Buddhists i.e. the authors you find at B&N are the authors you see in its pages."
  (3:04 PM) Thusness: ic
  (3:04 PM) AEN: no no
  (3:04 PM) AEN: the orange book u had
  (3:05 PM) AEN: last time we discussed b4 mah
  (3:05 PM) AEN: that one is another one.. is not dzogchen, is mahamudra
  (3:05 PM) Thusness: oh...yeah
  (3:05 PM) Thusness: that one is good.
  (3:05 PM) AEN: ic ya
  (3:05 PM) Thusness: yeah...remembered.
  (3:06 PM) AEN: theres another book, a thicker one... by dakpo tashi namgyal, i think more thorough. called Moonlight, Quintessence of Mind and Meditation
  (3:06 PM) Thusness: ic
  (3:06 PM) AEN: oh btw
  (3:06 PM) AEN: wat u tink about this article http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/mahamud/mahamud.html
  (3:16 PM) Thusness: not bad.
  (3:16 PM) AEN: icic..
  (3:17 PM) Thusness: but u know vajrayana got recognition by certain authority is important.
  (3:17 PM) Thusness: lol
  (3:17 PM) Thusness: I do not like to comment about that. I am only interested in practical experience.
  (3:17 PM) AEN: wat u mean got recognition by certain authority is important.
  (3:18 PM) Thusness: means lineage is important lah
  (3:18 PM) Thusness: for me, i have no interest in this sort of stuff.
  (3:18 PM) Thusness: as long as the practitioner shows direct experience of our luminous and empty nature, he is a true practitioner
  (3:19 PM) Thusness: at my current stage, i am vividly clear of that Buddha's teaching is the way towards liberation.
  (3:19 PM) Thusness: There is no doubt in my experience and practice and Buddha's teaching.
  (3:20 PM) Thusness: I am not particularly concerned about authority.
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Mr. OMA
Nafis Rahman yes l know, and see it can be confusing. I can give a sketch of the path map for those that are currious, though you will have to deal with it not being like you are used to
Having the first shift as Eckhart Tolle or others, makes you clean a hole in the central channel behind the eyes. I think actually Tolle says there was an explosion of kind behind the eyes that night, and this actually is how it is for many having this insight. This hole sets a permanent mark on you perception for the rest of your life, though in various degree as already mentioned.
Then you go about working on the rest of the central channel, which in total are 13 knots like this, 6 inside the head and 7 outside, each time marks a significant shift in perception.
Then after this you subsequently purify these 13 insights, and your view deepen even more, this we call perfecting the bhumis. So all in all one should have 26 permanent irreversible insights before perfect "enlightenment".
There is no distinction between substantialist and non substantialist like you mention, though according to Kim analysis of people who have reached anatta usually seem to have opened 6, this means about 1/4 or 1/5 of the whole path, very rarely one see they have also perfected 6 but it happens. I dont have the skills to asserts these things myself so l cant say really, this is purely from the point of energy reading and l have speculated alot that it might not perfectly assert the view of the person, also how he has practiced seem to me to make a big difference, but l think in many cases it does resemble quite well.
After this the outer layers of purification requires you to start working on boddhicitta (you should before too of course) there are some talks on YouTube where Kim talks goes into this, why it is so necessary to have boddhicitta at this point in practice to purify the most distant nadis and obscurations here.
Anyway, it takes alot of time learning this stuff and reading others energy. But reading yourself and you own energy body is not that hard, so suggest looking into this if you are interested. I would be very interested to see how most people in AtR ends up by this model
Hope this helps.

Yin LingAdmin

How do one work on the knot?

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Mr. OMA

Yin Ling just arrived at work, l will write you later

but it is in the whats next book more detailed.

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

Mr. OMA

Though, having went through Kim’s book last night on the numerous Pemako sangha accounts of “bhumi openings”, I cannot find any relationship between AtR anatta and Kim’s sixth bhumi. None of them described anything about AtR anatta at what Kim calls the sixth bhumi

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

Mr. OMA

Not even close, actually.

Throughout the whole book, the only passage that resembles or sounds close to AtR anatta is this one passage about the “13th bhumi”. The other people describing 13th bhumi didnt really describe the same way as this person.

And even then, this is not necessarily indicative of AtR anatta insight. The depth of insight needs to be tested, it can still fall into substantialist nondualism.

That is, when you say “awareness’s frolic”, it still sounds like there is an inherently existing unchanging awareness that manifests as everything, that is not realising the emptiness of awareness and is not AtR anatta. So there is no indication it is anatta even if the description sounds close.

This description:

“My experiences of 12th and 13th openings where more of a clearing and deepening of the experience of 11th. On the 25th of December 2016 my 13th bhumi opened. It was a shift in awareness during my yoga practice. It was nothing too dramatic, but afterwards I felt as though there was no longer a me, just clear light flooding down into the chest from upper centers into the hridaya (inner heart) and body which persisted after practice. More expansiveness and clarity beyond the body and I felt my legs and arms clear out. Direct, clear, crisp clear light. I realized all forms are empty of self, that there is no one there other than the spontaneous empty display of awareness's frolic. The wind doesn't need a listener. Who is there to listen? No one. Yet it blows and still sounds sweet. Form and emptiness are one. No one hears yet the sound is heard. This awareness I realized is beyond a self. Thoughts where very few and quiet, there was no shifting or dulling of the experience of rigpa after 13th bhumi opening as previously experienced at 11th. When thoughts come there was previously (during 11th and to a lesser extent 12th) a drop in the volume of rigpa as mental content arose and stuff came up. Now it shone like the sun in spite of the clouds. Thoughts are empty and to see the emptiness of one is to go beyond all thought. The days which followed felt very strange, very natural, very direct and bright/clear and so very ordinary! The new awareness integrated and I became used to it. It was truly wonderful and still is.”

- What’s next? On post awakening practices

By Kim Katami

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Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu people have various ways to talk about it. Also people are not looking for any particular insight, or working towards a particular view. One is taught to recognize rigpa, see thoughts as rigpa, and come to certainty gradually. Then stuff like this happens, big and small. I also have had stuff like this, just sitting, sounds, no self whatsoever... Then variations deepen with further practice.

I think the AtR folks are very set on that insights are supposed to be in a particular way that they describe (that is the 7 stages). I dont mind that, but necessarily alot of insights will fall outside your scope due to language, persons individual experience and so on.. Also most importantly, investigate yourself through yogic experience, investigate from the point of view of a Pemako practitioner, thats the way to do justice to the method really. One does not use the view to certify insight as you do, though it is discussed of course, but as is explained. I know this is different to you and most people, but nevertheless it is how it goes.

I read the comment about DO, just thought to mention that not everyone practice like this, like there is no mention of this in f.ex Daniel Browns teachings which is meant to take one all the way to buddhahood (at least for what l know).

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Yin LingAdmin

Mr. OMA

I should go meditate but I think I’m going to post a last comment on this thread bc I see really genuine and sincere practitioner with an open mind to dialogue and I know what we all really want is to reduce our sufferings and liberate.

Sometimes I hate myself for writing so much

but anyway.. I will just be honest

Do use great discernment when approach teachings and esp when doubts are raise about a certain teacher or teaching by sincere practitioners who don’t take money nor require u to do anything for them, they usually have the best intention. Usually. Morality is a good guide.

Anything that suggest an easy path or a short cut please don’t listen.

Any teachers then claim perfection or buddhahood do be highly suspicious.

Because insight is really really sensitive to views.

One wrong view and the whole “moon” is blocked. It doesn’t manifest. Just a small error and we can’t get there.

So the teachings have to be very very refined and the understanding very in depth. There is no room for errors if we want realisations, imo. We cannot guesstimate the meaning of DO or emptiness. Or anything in the dhamma. We cannot simple define whatever we like in the dharma, not just for respect but it will affect our understanding and subsequently insight and realization ..

And the potential to liberate.

when insight matures, there is a state which become 24/7, with no “I” at all in a boundless expansive field , and this “sense of being “ is in every single thing, every single particle, obvious as day, and one is everything evenly

Yet every single thing and particle, are beautifully shining its truth as appearances , in smooth evenness, zero contraction of energy any where, awareness is exhausted, things are exhausted, self is exhausted and there is only left this translucent suchness.

The strong connection to everything and everyone in the whole field is palpable, whole, and so exquisite it can make one cry. I still tear now and then when I meditate. The truth is not a myth. There is a moon and we need to get there

Further on, the sense of strong compassion will arise, naturally , for every single thing, sentient and Insentient, and a powerful tenderness and reverence for this life becomes my state of mind throughout the day because wherever I turn my head and move to and go to, this moon stands naked in front of me, as me. I hope I don’t lose it.

And I’m often lonely and frustrated because I couldn’t really help ppl across. I can’t even tell my parents whom I love most in this life about this, to reduce their suffering.

In all the helplessness I know to be able to really help, is to eventually achieve buddhahood, total omniscient and I’m willing to do the work, because I saw the potential to be omniscient from just this

Seeing.

I do not care at all what bhumis I have because I know it is this seeing t that will guide me in all my thoughts speech and actions, and if I keep practising and behave according to truth, whatever bhumis I need to reach will be reached. I just need to get the operating system right ,

I’m happy, almost joyful all the while, almost never remember the last time I got really mad or frustrated.. I didn’t think this is possible before.

Not sure what will I manage to achieve by saying this lol but well, I hope sincere practitioners keep their standards high and their insights precise and practice hard. Really really hard.

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

Mr. OMA

This is not really true: "very set on that insights are supposed to be in a particular way that they describe (that is the 7 stages)"

I very well acknowledge that people go through different phases. Some people jump to anatta, to nondual, etc, bypassing I AM first, for example. (But the I AM Luminosity is still important, that taste and dimension is important and should be brought out) Daniel Ingram too skipped I AM, but Daniel did a gradual path of 16 nanas followed by mahasi cessations before going into nondual and then anatta. Daniel's path is also similar to Yin Ling.

So definitely nobody here is suggesting that 7 stages is the only way to go. However, it is a common way, and even in Zen, Dzogchen and Mahamudra it is often and usually taught that way from the many teachers I encountered, although they use different wordings. In Mahamudra, Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's system, I AM is in the yoga of one pointedness. In Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith's teachings, the Clarity aspect of Rigpa that is like a mirror is first distinguished and clarified from other perceptions (sort of like self-enquiry IMO), but later on with deeper insights will lead to the realisation of anatta seamlessness and emptiness.

But in any case, IMO, because Anatta is such a huge game changing insight, I cannot see how it will be possible for someone who had it to miss it or fail to mention it, talk about it, describe it in details. It is much much more likely that they will make it a central theme of their conversations on spirituality when it comes to the key breakthrough, because it truly is The Key to liberation. So how can one fail to mention and see its importance? Even Daniel Ingram for example, with his own very different set of stages and path, also talks about its crucial importance in what he calls his 4th path. There is no liberation when there is no fully overcoming self/Self, inherency and duality in all its faces. Then emptiness of phenomena is also extension of the anatta insight, as John Tan said years ago, "the same insight of anatta must be applied to object, characteristics, cause and effect, production and cessation...which is a more slippery issue. Nevertheless, experientially seeing through self/Self is still most crucial."

So yes, "One is taught to recognize rigpa, see thoughts as rigpa, and come to certainty gradually. Then stuff like this happens, big and small. I also have had stuff like this, just sitting, sounds, no self whatsoever... Then variations deepen with further practice. " --> this is ok, this is good, as a gradual progression thats fine. You don't need to break through by koan or stanzas, although they can be very effective means and advisable in AtR. But in any case there must be clarity, not confused or mingle 'same taste of luminous clarity' with 'realization of no-self' or 'realization of emptiness'. One taste is also not just no subject-object division, but also empty of inherent existence in self and phenomena -- including 'Awareness', and this emptiness of Awareness is key to breakthrough but it doesn't end there.

There must also be clarity on distinctions of experience and realization, even if we do gradual style practice rather than sudden awakening from start, eventually the point of breakthrough will come from realization (of anatta as seal).

I will share a post by John Tan back in October 2010 to me, which I feels clarify a lot of things or subtleties pertaining to nondual and anatta.

But before I do that, I just want to say, Yin Ling's post and advise is very good. Do take heed.

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

John Tan wrote in October 2010:

o 17 Oct `10, 12:42PM

Hi AEN,

Just managed to scan through the past few posts you wrote. They are quite insightful. In summary you are beginning to experience the ‘taste’ you described in the “certainty of being” of the formless presence in transient phenomena. That is what I meant by bringing ‘this’ from the background (formlessness) to the foreground (forms). It is also what I meant by the ‘fabric and texture of Awareness’ in forms. Below are some of the points that came to mind after reading them. I will just jot down some of them for sharing purposes.

1. One Taste

You mentioned about ‘one taste’ but do take note that what you are experiencing is just the ‘same taste’ of luminous essence, not the ‘same taste’ in Emptiness nature. I use the term ‘essence’ differently from Dzogchen. In Dzogchen, luminosity is the ‘nature’ and Emptiness is the ‘essence’. As I see Emptiness as the absence of an essence in whatever arises, I do not feel appropriate expressing the Dzogchen way.

2. “Obvious and direct…yet always missed!”

I like how you expressed it, it is quite apt. However I sense that you may have underestimated the power and full meaning of ‘deeply rooted in consciousness’. If we are unaware of the impact, we will not realize what is meant by ‘latent tendencies’. Try imagining ‘someone’ standing right in front of you yet you are unable to see him because you are under a magical spell that is planted in the deep most of your consciousness. If you are unaware of the latent deep, whatever realized is merely a surface understanding. Day in day out, these tendencies are always in action. You may want to ask yourself will the latent deep find its way up even in a PCE mode?

3. Feels Universe, Pure Consciousness, Pure Aggregates

“You are not just the formless presence/knower/consciousness... you are all forms, you are the universe univers-ing, you are whatever is arising moment to moment as a complete non-dual experience in itself... There is no background awareness and foreground phenomena happening in awareness... there is simply foreground pure consciousness always, be it the pure existence experienced in a formless mode (e.g. I AM, aka the 'thought realm' as Thusness puts it), or in all forms... the making of a non-dual experience into a background is simply trying to capture and reify a moment of pure consciousness.”

I remember writing this to Simpo few years ago in his forum. It is related to his experience of ‘feeling light and weightless’. This also relates to mind-body drop and your dream about ‘transparency’. Being ‘light, weightless and transparent’ is the result of dissolving the body-construct. It is quite an obvious contrast moving from ‘Self/self’ to no-self. Prior to what you have written you should also experience this, otherwise you are being too focused on being ‘brilliance and luminous’ of the 'actuality'.

On the othe hand, feeling ‘universe’ has to do with the deconstruction of ‘identity’ and ‘personality’. You have to have clearer insight of what ‘deconstructions’ leads to what experience.

The text in bold is quite well expressed but knows the dependent originated nature of consciousness. There is the experience of primordial purity of the aggregates and 18 dhatus but there is no 'a substratum background' that is called 'pure consciousness'. The sense of self is dissolved and is replaced by a sense of inter-penertration.

. 4. No agent and the intensity of luminosity

In the seen, there is just the seen! It is completely non-dual... there is no 'the seen + a perceiver here seeing the seen'.... The seen is precisely the seeing! There is not two or three things: seer, seeing, and the seen. That split is entirely conceptual (though taken to be reality)...

Well expressed! But in the subsequent paragraph, you said,

“All the bullshit concepts, constructs and images of an 'aliveness', a 'hearing', a 'seeing', an 'awareness' simply dissolves in the direct experiencing of whatever arises... just 'seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, thinking is thinking and they are all flowing independently', with 'no self holding all these sensory experiences together'”

In the article on http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../on-anatta..., I mentioned about the 2 stanza. There is the no-agent aspect and there is the intensity of luminosity aspect. I find that your present experience is still centered on the luminosity aspect. You are directly experiencing seamlessness of any happening where no clear line of demarcation can be drawn between the subject-object split. You realized the boundary is purely illusionary and is clear about the cause that resulted in such division but still, that is not the ‘essence’ of an experiential insight of anatta in my opinion. There is a difference in saying "there is no split between thinking and thinker, the thinking itself is 'me'" and "there is thinking, no thinker". You must be aware that having immediate and direct experience but with dualistic framework intact and complete replacement of the dualistic framework entirely with DO (dependent origination) yields very different experiential insight; you may want to investigate further and move from "they are all flowing independently" to "manifesting in seamless inter-dependencies."

5. "How am I experiencing the moment of being alive?" (HAIETMOBA)

But.... if you contemplate on "How am I experiencing the moment of being alive?", or, "How am I experiencing the moment of hearing?", or "How am I experiencing the moment of seeing?" or "How am I experiencing the moment of being aware?"

"How am I experiencing the moment of being alive?" (HAIETMOBA) is the key question of the AF. I will not comment on it but how does it differ from the question “Without using any symbols of ‘I’, how is ‘I’ experienced?” Also how it differs from the question “Who am I?” -- the question that led you to the realization of “I AM”.

As you get clearer and clearer where exactly are all these questions leading you and the mode of perception that are involved in I AM realization and PCEs, you will have to asked yourself sincerely is this the ultimate mode of perception that will lead you towards genuine freedom. Is being lockup permanently in PCE the way towards liberation and how it differs from seeking permanent uninterrupted abiding in “I AMness”.

Edited by Thusness 17 Oct `10, 4:35PM

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Soh Wei YuAdmin

Mr. OMA just recalled i have this passage in thusness 7 stages article comments section

About something a teacher in singapore said and john commented a decade ago:

“Thusness also wrote many years ago commenting on someone discussing Dzogchen practice as the realization of the luminous essence and integrating it into all experience and activities, "I understand what he meant and but the way it is taught (Soh: i.e. discussed by the person) is misleading. It is simply non-dual experience and experiencing presence in both the foreground and background and in the 3 states (Soh: waking, dreaming, dreamless deep sleep). That is not realizing our true empty nature but our luminous essence... ...understand the difference between luminosity and empty nature (Soh: luminosity here refers to the aspect of Presence-Awareness, and emptiness refers to the lack of intrinsic existence or essence of Presence/Self/Phenomena)... ...Very often, people rely on the experience and not true realization of the view. The right view (Soh: of anatta (no-self), dependent origination and emptiness) is like a neutralizer that neutralizes dualistic and inherent views; by itself, there is nothing to hold. So realize what right view is pointing and all experiences will come naturally. The right enlightenment experience is like what (Zen Master) Dogen described, not merely a non-dual state where experiencer and what's experienced collapses into a non-dual stream of experience. This I have told you clearly."”

Mr. OMA

Yin Ling you asked how do you work on the knots.

So regarding knots. I think again the best way to understand the method is to investigate yourself, like use the book and videos and see if you can identify the central channels and the knots

If you want to message me for question on this I am happy to help.

When we practice we use 36 centers in the limbs of the body, and at later stages also centers around or outside the physical body. We use then empowerment mantras in these centers, either chanting our shouting which is particular Pemako style.

When there are shifts in say the central channel, there are parrellell opening in the body. This is why the body feels increasingly light and transparent after a shift. Also the knots store emotional patterns. Depending on a persons particular karma, one might experience pains or sickness more in some areas in the body, and from an energetic point of view this is due to this. For example I have had alot of struggle with my throat my whole life, others are more about solar plexus, or tailbone and so forth.. all can clear hough, and thats good to know

But again, if you actually want to know these things you need to do the yogic practices and investigate them yourself, and honestly it will blow you mind getting such a fine tuned understanding of the energy body with "hands on". Also, as Ugi wrote above here in the same OP: “ Like I said, I understand all reservations. But I can only give the invitation to join of my teacher's public teachings and try it out oneself. I don't see that happen at all from all the critical folk. Not necessarily including you, *** guy from different post****, but the ones who are very quick in condemning without examining.”..

I am not trying to trick anyone into doing practices they are not into, but this really need to be emphasised and what does proper justice to the method

I read AtR often to get understanding this way.

You mentioned doubt. I have had alot of doubt, its quite familiar to me. But since I have had the result from practice too, I know some of my fears are not grounded in common sense, and that I am just being triggered. One needs to be able to distinguish these two.

So these days when I get into issues of some kind I try to go all in, make my body a target for my own confusion, jealusy, fear etc.. No one have “put” fear in met, this is latent from my own conditioning already. So I use it for practice. Like chod. Cultivate a lot of bodhicitta and go to the places that scares you, in this way hindrances becomes a valuabe teacher.

Yin LingAdmin

Mr. OMA Thanks for taking the time to write the lengthy explanation

From ur writing It seems that the practice has benefitted you in many ways, so in that case do ignore my blah3 and keep on your path

Mr. OMA

Yin Ling it has

But thank you for thoughtfull replies. I will write some stuff that might clarify further my approach and how I have been taught to practice which might be helpfull.

Also, yesterday I read your comment again, and I felt this stingyness and competitativness. So I sat down, generated boddhicitta and turn the table, cut through my own bullshit, and it worked. In that sense I owe you thanks for making my aware of this stinginess, jolly good we have internet discussion forums

Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu

Hi Soh, leaving few comments here on two topics that is left unanswered

Regarding cessations, this is discussed in Pemako too, one have short ones in the beginning and then after a while they start spanning over hours and days at late stages, also the nature of them might differ. One way we use to measure when some person have purified 10th is that there is no more cessation, there is nothing to cessate so the person is in “cessation” all the time uninterruptedly.

Two things I say is common with cessation is that one sees directly ones nature, and since this nature is self-liberating, obscuration and habitual emotions then have the chance to evaporate truly. This is one of the reasons I would say it is hard for me to accept that Pemako is at some stage like I AM, as this would imply there being surpression of “stuckness” in terms of traumatic or karmic emotions, and this simply is not the case in Pemako. They are really released and liberated together with conceptual delusions and fixations.

Also I read through this article: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../on-anatta-emptiness... and I am sure I had the insight from the first stanza, it was one of the biggest I have had quite early on, with a sort of “drop”, and the background completely disappearing, most of the descriptions in the text is really familiar to this “happening”. Also a lot of the other things have similarities, f.ex the “just sitting, eating, walking” I had at one point spanning over few weeks some while ago too. I am not sure if it resembles anatte exactly like you guys have it, but it was very beautiful and serene period. I can relate to it being deeply vivid and alive, and there being no-experiencer experience split.

I think one thing that is particular or different in Pemako is of course the map we use and Kims style of teaching. If you have a shift, one is not encouraged to “deepen” this into say Maha or have it 24/7. Instead one is quite aware that there still is say 16 more insight to go, and then keeps punching as Kim put it, doing a lot of bodhicitta or wrathful practices to make stuff surface again so one can enter the next “knot”. So there is no mention of the practice of the “fruit” of each shift. From a psychological point of view I think this also makes a big difference for the practitioner, since one always is set on the next “bhumi” and there is no point in waiting until you have purified all of it.. as well as the fruit period is not necessary for the next one to “pop”.

I cant say of course, but it sounds like in AtR and also traditional lineages there is this emphasis of stabilizing one state of realization and really understand its fruits. Anatta seems to be the realization that “measure” or make the ground for all the others.. while in Pemako there is rigpa which is the main thing from beginning to end.. I think this makes practice quite different. So f.ex I never got to Maha after that first stanze insight - though Kim does give pointers at interconnectedness so one does have the tools to work on this – nor did I every stabilize or try to stabilize any of these shifts..

A friend told me this analogy where Mahayana was compared to a monkey climbing up a tree, using all the branches to get there as how you in Mahayana come to build the view, while Dzogchen is like a crow which fly to the top, as one have the view from the beginning. To be clear this does not mean Dzogchen is without a path or practice, but you have the view from the beginning and that is what makes a difference in how you “build” or train in it. This at least makes the most sense to me when I try to make comparisons, I hope this is helpful.

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Mr. OMA "most of the descriptions in the text is really familiar to this “happening”. Also a lot of the other things have similarities, f.ex the “just sitting, eating, walking”"

You're talking about non-doership.

"I can relate to it being deeply vivid and alive, and there being no-experiencer experience split. "

You talk about glimpses of no-mind as an experience, not a realization of anatta as dharma seal that makes no-mind all the time so, natural state and effortless.

Anyway it's important to distinguish non-doership and anatta realization, excerpt from AtR guide:

In Soh’s I AM phase, John Tan told him not to mistaken anatta with [mere] non-doership:

“Not to talk too much about me, just focus on your experience. Also what you said about the no observer can be quite misleading. It does not mean there is 'no one doing anything' and 'everything is arising spontaneously'. You should understand anatta from below quotations taken from 'The Sun My Heart' by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:

"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh, The Sun My Heart

"..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh, The Sun My Heart

"In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh, The Sun My Heart

Comments by John Tan in 2009 on these paragraphs from “The Sun My Heart” (see excerpts in Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions),

"...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:

"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved.

There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought." When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.

When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough.

Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."

Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas. But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind.

When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."

Soh Wei Yu

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Mr. OMA " or have it 24/7"

If there is true realization of anatta, it naturally becomes 24/7. It is not training a state of no-mind until it becomes 24/7. The key is in Realization. Anatta is the crucial realization. The other experiences that are temporary are not really called insight in AtR terminologies.

Just like this thread: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../vipassana-must-go...

Partial excerpt:

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08

i dont know whether his explanation reflects mahasi's understanding or buddhaghosa's description

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08

then his 4th path is like anatta insight

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08

daniel ingram's book however all the nanas seem like states

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08

Yeah

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:49pm UTC+08

i havent read his texts before

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:48pm UTC+08

you mean what he wrote in visudhimagga?

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:48pm UTC+08

But that does not mean we know more ...

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:47pm UTC+08

Buddhaghosa I m not sure but the nana (insight) described is different...and whatever described is more like experience and anatta seems to b an inference than direct insight.

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:45pm UTC+08

oic.. u mean buddhaghosa, mahasi sayadaw, goenka all have this problem? derived inference instead of experiential insight?

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:44pm UTC+08

Vipassana is a technique that must go hand in hand with view and experience. Once realized, vipassana is natural and effortless.

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08

Not an experiential insight

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08

That is to me a derived inference

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:43pm UTC+08

From there realized anatta

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08

They r talking abt the 3 characteristics, the stream

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08

So where is the insight?

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:42pm UTC+08

Yeah abt them

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:39pm UTC+08

the traditional techniques.. u dont mean mahasi or goenka? or are u talking about them

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08

you mean emptiness insight?

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08

so many are now talking about.. what?

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:38pm UTC+08

So don't say whose technique is the best ...

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:37pm UTC+08

But r those seeing through...u see the realization is in line with all the texts but when u look at the traditional techniques, u realized this lack...either they emphasis on the experience or the view but there is no insight at all.

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:35pm UTC+08

So like u said, I think my approach is the best...lol...but u see so many is now talking abt it after going through all the different traditional techniques

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:33pm UTC+08

Yeah

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:33pm UTC+08

U also realized that the emptiness and chariot analogy and all Buddhist Mahayana emptiness sutta all r talking abt the insight of anatta extended...it is the same insight but brought to experiential taste...yet u do not see any emphasis at all...in almost all the traditions

Soh Wei YuTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:32pm UTC+08

you mean many people describe nana but those nana has no insight involved?

John TanTuesday, June 24, 2014 at 10:31pm UTC+08

Some may say they realized anatta but may not b as thorough as seeing through....the insights (nana) from buddhaghosa or Mahasi or goenka....I wonder why is it called an insight at all since no insights whatsoever r involved. How is there no trace of a background I leading to the realization of no I and mine making and how thorough can it b without the seeing through?

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Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation

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“What's important is realization. The 7 phases of realization as per JT map emphasizes the distinction of view, realization and experience. Realization is important for breakthrough.

With the correct realization comes the experience and possibility of stable and effortless experience of pure presence in its nondual, uncontrived, full-blown, empty and liberating way. Most crucial key is the anatta realization, and with that mature into two-fold emptiness and spontaneous perfection and self-liberation. But even before anatta, even for I AM, there is distinction between experience and realization.

On the other hand, having an experience does not indicate having realization necessarily. In such cases, experience fades in time.

The words of Jigme Lingpa:

Understanding is like a patch, it wears off

Experiences are like the mist, they fade

Realization is like space, unchanging” – Soh, 2021

Soh Wei Yu

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"some stage like I AM, as this would imply there being surpression of “stuckness” in terms of traumatic or karmic emotions"

I AM need not be related to suppression.

As John Tan puts it in 2007, “AMness has limitless potential and must be expressed in a relative world in constant interaction.”

Many people at the I AM phase are very grounded. But it depends on the individual.

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"while in Pemako there is rigpa which is the main thing from beginning to end.."

What you mean by Rigpa is just the aspect of Presence. But in Dzogchen teachings, there are subtleties and gradations to rigpa. The unripened rigpa (Pure Presence, initial realization like I AM) and the mature rigpa which includes the wisdom of twofold emptiness. And eventually even rigpa is exhausted. So this emphasis in rigpa is the same in AtR and Dzogchen, just that there must be clear map to the maturity of it and exhaustion of it eventually. Kyle and Malcolm clarifies about the degrees of rigpa here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-degrees-of...

Also I have this quote by John Tan in the 7 stages map:

Lastly, I'll end with something Thusness wrote in 2012, "You cannot talk about emptiness and liberation without talking about awareness. Instead understand the empty nature of awareness and see awareness as this single activity of manifestation. I do not see practice apart from realizing the essence and nature of awareness. The only difference is seeing Awareness as an ultimate essence or realizing awareness as this seamless activity that fills the entire Universe. When we say there is no scent of a flower, the scent is the flower.... that is because the mind, body, universe are all together deconstructed into this single flow, this scent and only this... Nothing else. That is the Mind that is no mind. There is not an Ultimate Mind that transcends anything in the Buddhist enlightenment. The mind Is this very manifestation of total exertion... wholly thus. Therefore there is always no mind, always only this vibration of moving train, this cooling air of the air-con, this breath... The question is after the 7 phases of insights can this be realized and experienced and becomes the ongoing activity of practice in enlightenment and enlightenment in practice -- practice-enlightenment."

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The Degrees of Rigpa

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Rigpa is pointed out in traditional Dzogchen teachings right from the start, but what students recognise at first is only the unripened rigpa, as Kyle pointed out in the thread I pasted above:

"We don’t have any misunderstanding. Again this is rhetoric versus reality, up until the third vision, “emptiness” is obscured and therefore at the time of direct introduction it is merely rhetorical. The nature of mind, as non-dual clarity and emptiness is not truly known until the third vision, again per Longchenpa, per Khenpo Ngachung, etc., not something I have made up. What do we generally recognize in direct introduction? We recognize clarity [gsal ba], and the aspect of vidyā that is concomitant with that clarity. Vidyā is then what carries our practice, but vidyā is not the citta dharmatā, the nature of mind.

This is why the first two visions are likened to śamatha, and the last two are likened to vipaśyanā."

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Soh Wei Yu

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"I’ve never met anyone who gained any insight into emptiness at direct introduction. Plenty who recognized rigpa kechigma though.

I don’t presume to know better than luminaries like Longchenpa and Khenpo Ngachung who state emptiness isn’t actually known until third vision and so on. You may presume otherwise and in that case we can agree to disagree."

- Kyle Dixon https://www.reddit.com/.../how_exactly_does_one_realize.../

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Likewise AtR path, and many other paths start with the Clarity aspect. But as John Tan often warned from the first time I know him, one should not stop there.

In January 2005, John Tan wrote:

“[19:21] <^john^> learn how to experience emptiness and no-selfness.

[19:22] <^john^> this is the only way to liberate.

[19:22] <^john^> not to dwell too deeply into the minor aspect of pure awareness.

[19:23] <^john^> of late i have been seeing songs and poems relating to the luminosity aspect of Pure Awareness.

[19:23] <^john^> uncreated, original, mirror bright, not lost in nirvana and samsara..etc

[19:23] <^john^> what use is there?

[19:24] <ZeN`n1th> oic...

[19:24] <^john^> we have from the very beginning so and yet lost for countless aeons of lives.

[19:25] <^john^> buddha did not come to tell only about the luminosity aspect of pure awareness.

[19:25] <^john^> this has already been expressed in vedas.

[19:25] <^john^> but it becomes Self.

[19:25] <^john^> the ultimate controller

[19:26] <^john^> the deathless

[19:26] <^john^> the supreme..etc

[19:26] <^john^> this is the problem.

[19:26] <^john^> this is not the ultimate nature of Pure Awareness.

[19:27] <^john^> for full enlightenment to take place, experience the clarity and emptiness. That's all.”

“The Pristine awareness is often mistaken as the 'Self'. It is especially difficult for one that has intuitively experience the 'Self' to accept 'No-Self'. As I have told you many times that there will come a time when you will intuitively perceive the 'I' -- the pure sense of Existence but you must be strong enough to go beyond this experience until the true meaning of Emptiness becomes clear and thorough. The Pristine Awareness is the so-called True-Self' but why we do not call it a 'Self' and why Buddhism has placed so much emphasis on the Emptiness nature? This then is the true essence of Buddhism. It is needless to stress anything about 'Self' in Buddhism; there are enough of 'Logies' of the 'I" in Indian Philosophies. If one wants to know about the experience of 'I AM', go for the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita. We will not know what Buddha truly taught 2500 years ago if we buried ourselves in words. Have no doubt that The Dharma Seal is authentic and not to be confused.

When you have experienced the 'Self' and know that its nature is empty, you will know why to include this idea of a 'Self' into Buddha-Nature is truly unnecessary and meaningless. True Buddhism is not about eliminating the 'small Self' but cleansing this so called 'True Self' (Atman) with the wisdom of Emptiness.” - John Tan, 2005

And in March 2006, John Tan said:

<^john^> the different between hinduism and buddhism is they return to the "I AM" and clings to it.

<^john^> always "I" as the source.

<ZeN`n1th> icic

<^john^> but in buddhism it is being replaced by "emptiness nature", there is a purest, an entity, a stage to be gained or achieved is an illusion.

<^john^> there is none. No self to be found. No identity to assumed. Nothing attained.

<ZeN`n1th> oic..

<^john^> this is truly the All.

<^john^> so for a teaching that is so thorough and complete, why must it resort back to a "True Self"?

<ZeN`n1th> hmm but i got a question about just now you say impermanent... but mahayana texts also say tathagathagarbha is permanent right?

<^john^> yes but for other reasons.

<ZeN`n1th> what kind of reasons

<ZeN`n1th> wat you mean

<^john^> first you must know that there is really a very subtle difference between pure subjectivity and emptiness nature.

<ZeN`n1th> icic

<^john^> for one that has experienced in full emptiness nature, does he/she need to create an extra "True Self"?

<ZeN`n1th> so wat difference

<ZeN`n1th> no

<^john^> he already knows and experiences and completely understand the arising cause and conditions of why the "true self" was created...

<^john^> will he still be confused?

<^john^> he knows exactly what is happening, the reality of the 'self'.

<ZeN`n1th> icic..

<^john^> i would say it is due to his compassion to let the other sects have a chance to understand the dharma that he said so.

<^john^> this is what i think.

<^john^> but there is no necessity to preach something extra.

<ZeN`n1th> oic

<^john^> in light of emptiness nature, "True Self" is not necessary.

<ZeN`n1th> icic

<^john^> the so called "purest" is already understood, there is no clinging.

<^john^> there is hearing, no hearer...etc

<^john^> is already beyond "True Self".

<ZeN`n1th> oic

<^john^> yet it exactly knows the stage of "True Self".

<^john^> if there is no hearing...then something is wrong.

<^john^>

<^john^> but there is hearing but no hearer.

<ZeN`n1th> hahaha

<ZeN`n1th> oic

<^john^> put your time into practice and understanding of no-self and emptiness.

<^john^>

<ZeN`n1th> ok

...

Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith wrote:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=15368...

The term bdag nyid, atman, just means, in this case, "nature", i.e. referring to the nature of reality free from extremes as being permanent, blissful, pure and self. The luminosity of the mind is understood to be this.

There are various ways to interpret the Uttaratantra and tathāgatagarbha doctrine, one way is definitive in meaning, the other is provisional, according to Gorampa Sonam Senge, thus the tathāgatagarbha sutras become definitive or provisional depending on how they are understood. He states:

In the context of showing the faults of a literal [interpretation] – it's equivalence with the Non-Buddhist Self is that the assertion of unique eternal all pervading cognizing awareness of the Saṃkhya, the unique eternal pristine clarity of the Pashupattis, the unique all pervading intellect of the Vaiśnavas, the impermanent condition, the measure of one’s body, in the permanent self-nature of the Jains, and the white, brilliant, shining pellet the size of an atom, existing in each individual’s heart of the Vedantins are the same.

The definitive interpretation he renders as follows:

Therefor, the Sugatagarbha is defined as the union of clarity and emptiness but not simply emptiness without clarity, because that [kind of emptiness] is not suitable to be a basis for bondage and liberation. Also it is not simple clarity without emptiness, that is the conditioned part, because the Sugatagarbha is taught as unconditioned.

Khyentse Wangpo, often cited as a gzhan stong pa, basically says that the treatises of Maitreya elucidate the luminosity of the mind, i.e. its purity, whereas Nāgarjuna's treatises illustrate the empty nature of the mind, and that these two together, luminosity and emptiness free from extremes are to be understood as noncontradictory, which we can understand from the famous Prajñāpāramita citation "There is no mind in the mind, the nature of the mind is luminosity".

DHARMAWHEEL.NET

"the Self is real" according to T. Page - Page 7 - Dharma Wheel

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Soh Wei Yu

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But I have heard of someone who told me before (not Pemako people but someone from Singapore), the third bhumi called 'The Luminous bhumi' is where he's at because it signifies the luminous Self. Lol. He is still hopelessly stuck at the I AM phase and eternalist views even today after decades, no advancement or progression whatsoever.

He fails to understand that without realizing the nature of mind as non-dual clarity and emptiness (the union or inseparability of clarity and emptiness), one cannot be considered at even the first bhumi level traditionally speaking. Any realizations before that are not really 'Buddhist' realization but it may be considered enlightenment in other religions. As John said many times before, Buddha did not only come to tell us about non-dual luminosity, that has been taught in the Vedas.

On nature of mind, Kyle Dixon said in 2014, "'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness."

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Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu

What you mean by Rigpa is just the aspect of Presence.

- I am pretty sure not, Daniel Brown points out "the lions gaze" and this is the same thing I have practiced.

"The nature of mind, as non-dual clarity and emptiness is not truly known until the third vision, again per Longchenpa, per Khenpo Ngachung, etc., not something I have made up. What do we generally recognize in direct introduction? We recognize clarity [gsal ba], and the aspect of vidyā that is concomitant with that clarity. Vidyā is then what carries our practice, but vidyā is not the citta dharmatā, the nature of mind."

- One can distinguish between direct rigpa (cessation) and dharmakaya clearity as I see it. So yes, direct introduction does not mean total realization. How we do it is and often you see in other schools, is by pointing out three characteristics of rigpa (clearity empty knowingness, stableness and alivness), which then bloom into cessation, and more mature rigpa, and then exhaustion of this too I assume.

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../report-from...

I AM need not be related to suppression.

- no, but there will still be karmic seeds latent right, a karmic storehouse untouched? I heard people stay in this (nirvamakalpa samadhi?) forever, and yet their karmic storehouse is the same. This is the distinction I mean.

OPENHEARTOPENHEART.BLOGSPOT.COM

Report from the last two weeks by Ugi Muller

Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu is Dzogchen part of your practice routine? I know you attend Acharya Malcoms courses, but have you gotten practice instruction and pointing out instructions and practice like this?

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Mr. OMA

Please clarify what you mean by "cessation" because it means different things to different people. MCTB or Mahasi cessation is not the same as Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which is also a different cessation, which are different also from Buddhist Nirvana. They are all totally different. An experiential description would be good. By cessation do you mean a blank out of all mental and sensory phenomenon into a state of pure awareness and presence?

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

What you mean by Rigpa is just the aspect of Presence."

What I mean is that the initial unripened rigpa is just the clarity aspect, the Pure Presence. This is the rigpa that a student of Dzogchen will first recognise, before eventually progressing into the ripened rigpa of non-dual clarity and emptiness down the road.

Like all these descriptions are just the Presence or Clarity aspect of the initial rigpa which are pointed out from the start, but it is not yet the realization of non-dual clarity and emptiness, nor anatta realization:

Dzogchen teacher Sogyal Rinpoche taught, “Sometimes when I meditate, I don't use any particular method. I just allow my mind to rest, and find, especially when I am inspired, that I can bring my mind home and relax very quickly. I sit quietly and rest in the nature of mind; I don't question or doubt whether I am in the "cor-rect" state or not. There is no effort, only rich understanding, wakefulness, and unshakable certainty. When I am in the nature of mind, the ordinary mind is no longer there. There is no need to sustain or confirm a sense of being: I simply am. A fundamental trust is present. There is nothing in par-ticular to do… …If meditation is simply to continue the flow of Rigpa after the introduction, how do we know when it is Rigpa and when it is not? I asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche this ques-tion, and he replied with his characteristic simplicity: "If you are in an unaltered state, it is Rigpa." If we are not contriving or manipulating the mind in any way, but simply resting in an unaltered state of pure and pristine awareness, then that is Rigpa. If there is any contriving on our part or any kind of manipulating or grasping, it is not. Rigpa is a state in which there is no longer any doubt; there is not really a mind to doubt: You see directly. If you are in this state, a complete, natural certainty and confidence surge up with the Rigpa itself, and that is how you know.”

“I was doing self inquiry yesterday with my back straight and legs crossed in the position of sitting meditation, contemplating 'Who am I', 'Before Birth Who am I'... with an intense desire to know the truth of my being. As the thoughts subside, an intense and palpable sense of beingness and presence, the only 'thing' that remains that I feel to be my innermost essence... became very obvious... very very vivid and intense, and feels like a constant background in which everything is taking place, thoughts (almost none at that moment, but arise afterwards) that arise are also taking place in this unchanging background... and there is this certainty and doubtlessness about this I AM-ness, IT is absolutely real and undeniable. IT/I AMness/The Witness is the only solid and undoubtable Presence and is clearly present with or without thoughts.” - Soh’s E-Book & Journal, February 2010 entry

"The notion that there is an Observer on one hand, and an object of observation on the other hand, is purely the product of conceptual thinking/dualizing.

In actual experience, once you touch that 'certainty of being' that I mentioned, there is no observer and observed distinction. There is just a non-dual sense of Existence, Being, Presence, Knowing, without a sense of 'me' being separated from 'that'. You Are That Knowing which is certain that You Are! The distinction between knower, knowing, and known dissolve into That. You Are That!" – Soh, May 2010 during I AM phase

“Hi Mr. H,

In addition to what you wrote, I hope to convey another dimension of Presence to you. That is Encountering Presence in its first impression, unadulterated and full blown in stillness.

So after reading it, just feel it with your entire body-mind and forgot about it. Don't let it corrupt your mind.

Presence, Awareness, Beingness, Isness are all synonyms. There can be all sorts of definitions but all these are not the path to it. The path to it must be non-conceptual and direct. This is the only way.

When contemplating the koan "before birth who am I", the thinking mind attempts to seek into it's memory bank for similar experiences to get an answer. This is how the thinking mind works - compare, categorize and measure in order to understand.

However, when we encounter such a koan, the mind reaches its limit when it tries to penetrate its own depth with no answer. There will come a time when the mind exhausts itself and come to a complete standstill and from that stillness comes an earthshaking BAM!

I. Just I.

Before birth this I, a thousand years ago this I, a thousand later this I. I AM I.

It is without any arbitrary thoughts, any comparisons. It fully authenticates it's own clarity, it's own existence, ITSELF in clean, pure, direct non-conceptuality. No why, no because.

Just ITSELF in stillness nothing else.

Intuit the vipassana and the samantha. Intuit the total exertion and realization. The essence of message must be raw and uncontaminated by words.

Hope that helps!” - John Tan, 2019

“Not fixating outwardly or holding inwardly is the shamatha without support, an indiffernet state that needs to be blown apart. After shouting PHAT, the abiding is destroyed. Here, when you simply rest, there is no thought going on, but there is still some subtle fixation on that stillness and that has to collapse. After you shout a sudden, very strong, and sharp PHAT, the abiding and not abiding are destroyed. It shatters that fixation so there is only the dharmakaya awareness left. Then there is a blank and free state, which is indescribable. Recognize this as the dharmakaya awareness. This is the introduction to naked dharmakaya through stillness.

There are two different ways of recognizing the essence of mind: when it is still and when it is thinking. The introduction through movement is when a thought arises; here you recognize the one who has thoughts. By recognizing the knower, you are introduced through movement. At that time, simply remain naturally free. In recognizing your own rigpa, the movement disappears. Recognize the dharmakaya awareness.

All sentient beings have arising and ceasing (of thought); mind will not only stay or only move. A thought doesn’t arise by itself. It needs the circumstances of a mental or external object, our senses, and our conscious mind directed toward that – these three are the basis of movement. There have to be some factors coming together or a thought to arise. Movement comes when there is the external grasped object and the internal fixating mind. When thoughts of happiness and sadness arise, if you simply look directly, as it is said in the very well-known Mahamudra teachings, then the essence of thought is the dharmakaya. When a thought arises, if you immediately recognize who is it that thinks, the thought self-vanishes, self-evaporates. Once the thought vanishes, there is nothing but unimpeded awareness.

Thoughts do arise and there are different ways of recognizing essence, as I previously mentioned – through a strong emotion like devotion or compassion, or with the strong exclamation of PHAT, or simply recognizing who it is that thinks. Through any of these ways, the thought will disappears. Recognize (the essence of) the thought and the thought will vanish. It will be traceless, as in the example of writing in space. It does not stay; this is the example.” – Dzogchen teacher Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Dzogchen teacher Tenzin Wangyal (1997, 29) points out:

“The gap between two thoughts is essence. But if in that gap there is a lack of presence, it becomes ignorance and we experience only a lack of awareness, almost an unconsciousness. If there is presence in the gap, then we experience the dharmakaya [the ultimate].”

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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ok I get what you mean. And in that case your 'cessation' is referring to nirvikalpa samadhi. By the way, MCTB/Daniel/Mahasi does not practice nirvikalpa samadhi. Their blackout cessation has nothing to do with pure awareness or realizing pure awareness or luminosity. The luminosity aspect only comes later. This is different from the samadhi of Ramana's earlier years, which is the Nirvikalpa samadhi proper and related to absorption in Self (in later years his insights matured into nondual / one mind and he became much more active and much less interested in entering trances. But still not anatta, see https://web.archive.org/.../www.../page/page/5213285.htm ). John Tan was super into nirvikalpa samadhi during his I AM phase and almost became a monk to follow the footsteps of Ramana when he was 17.

Yes, nirvikalpa samadhi does not exhaust the latent tendencies although I think some Hindus may believe otherwise.

What exhausts latent tendencies is realization, wisdom and insight, supported by samadhi. Samadhi alone is not enough.

Commenting on a traditional Buddhist teacher, John Tan said,

“He [XYZ Rinpoche] focused more on awareness as background. Without realizing the nature of mind and phenomena, karma continues to be generated.

When there is a background, one can't liberate actually but generates subtle karma IMO. Only through realizing the nature of mind and phenomena one can self liberates (karma).” – John Tan, 2018

This traditional Buddhist teacher has gone beyond I AM, he is at the one mind or nondual phase. And his book is very insightful and good in many aspects. Just that a crucial realization is missing, the key to self-liberation.

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Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu I mean seeing directly the nature of phenomena, instead seeing just clearity aspect. This is not Nirvikalpa Samadhi (lol, sorry for terrible spelling error) since this would imply no or very little release of disturbing emotions and fixations, and it is not a black out or nirodha samapatti as in therevada.

The definitions given on rigpa wiki you posted is exactly that, it is in my experience especially marked by release of karmic inprints and conceptualiations, fixations.

There is a video on youtube where kim talks about this you can see his description.

In the beginning cessations are usually short, and at times sort of "dramatic" as the leap into a direct seeing is so big, while at later stages it is much less so, and the distinction between cessation and not cessation is very very sublte, and also more natural. I think this would apply to the beginning stages being analytical mostly, as there is more effort involved while later the whole thing is much more default or natural happening by itself. This is why doing nothing medition is "advanced" meditation in my understanding.

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Mr. OMA In your state of cessation, are all the senses still functioning? If yes, what ceases? If not, how is it different from Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu Ok I get what you mean. And in that case your 'cessation' is referring to nirvikalpa samadhi. By the way, MCTB/Daniel/Mahasi does not practice nirvikalpa samadhi. Their blackout cessation has nothing to do with pure awareness or realizing pure awareness or luminosity.

- no you have not, I did not say Daniel did Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Nor nirodha samapatti (though he have practiced it I saw, it is not as I understand it part of his four path model, it comes after).

you keep reffering to different things and missunderstanding what I write. Read it again

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Mr. OMA I would argue that it is not different from nirvikalpa samadhi actually. In that moment all concepts cease, including all sense of self and so on. There is only pure Awareness/Presence/Beingness. That is a correct realization but it is not extended to all senses, at least in initial realization phase.

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Whether Advaita/Zen/Dzogchen/Mahamudra/Thai forest, that initial taste and touch of Essence is the same.

Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu all the senses are functioning, but the clinging to the concept making them solid indepentently real "eyes, nose, body" etc.. ceas. so senses work fine, but the subtle conceptual clinging is seen through step by step, and this makes the difference.

Also this happens with other subtle concepts like colors f.ex, brown being brown falls off at some point. Or the latent conceptualization of time.

Mr. OMA

Soh Wei Yu its fine, hopefully I will find out one day if it is nirvikalpa samadhi or not

But the test again as I say is; are there still latent disturbing emotions after or not? Are they erased or not?

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Mr. OMA That is going into deconstruction of phenomena. I would not say that it is necessarily the same as what I call realizing emptiness, nor anatta. But it is important too, to go into deconstruction of phenomena.

I wrote this post recently:

https://www.facebook.com/john.tan.9231712/posts/pfbid07gEbjtLy7Fx6bEHet1qxK9fexXhoSxxh4kMPtyzTyb9WauTC1GrgUdqVBd8WUyZ2l?__cft__[0]=AZUZ7t9QWFfK4Wd3W0hnZRK88FInyRHR5Ro-EC7V7u2sT5iRTyzLKDk96KN4ZjCLqB-mF9aL_IeIUsTAgYsJBkiPdB1GNJGWJV-3et_QDNaw4EKO94LcYv3oCcvV9BrkehLDlNzwiJWRrkC5uw4oAARq&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

John Tan

Geovani Geo there is the way of de-construction from analysis where one analyses and understands that "named things" are empty and "non-arisen" but still, one may not directly taste that empty clarity even after clearly understanding it conceptually. We must ask y is it so.

So, my question is:

1. How can the understanding that conceptual notions are empty "SUDDENLY" lead to direct authentication of one's empty "clarity/awareness"? Or it does or does not affect one's "clarity/awareness"?

2. If it does not, then what is the purpose of such contemplations?

3. If we want to authenticate "clarity" directly, don't you find the neti neti way to self enquiry of "who am I" a much more direct and intuitive approach?

4. How do 1 and 3 differ from ATR anatta enquiry of:

In hearing, there is just sound, no hearer;

In seeing, there is just colors and shapes, no seer;

All the above r ways of deconstructing conceptual constructs, but they lead to different results. Clearly understanding which de-constructing technique lead to what "result" is crucial.

*** It has to do with whether we r deconstructing the "SYNTAX/STRUCURE" or the "SEMANTICS/MEANING" that is associated to conceptual notion but will not go into it.

......

I replied:

Soh Wei Yu

My take

1) In greg goode direct path, the conceptual notions and constructs of physicality and objectivity is deconstructed even at the I AM phase prior to collapse of witness

In this path, objects and physicality become deconstructed into arisings within witnessing awareness, even before witness collapses.

This leaves the subjective pole undeconstructed until much later.

(Their path: coarse Witnessing (correction: opaque witness) with personality undeconstructed > subtle Witness or opaque witness (correction: transparent witness) with personality and objectivity deconstructed > collapse of witness into pure consciousness (aka one mind) > finally even consciousness dissolve (no mind?))

3) will lead to dissociation and I AM. But neti neti is needed for self enquiry and I AM realization.

4) deconstructs subjective pole, leading to direct realization and taste of radiance as all manifestations. Aka anatta

Soh Wei Yu

As for 2) i think 1) can be a kind of release on mental level even if anatta isn’t realised. Greg goode said that by the time he reached transparent witness he was free of mental suffering.

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John Tan

Soh Wei Yu what is opaque witness? Free of mental suffering is true.

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Soh Wei Yu

John Tan

Sorry wrote wrong. Opaque witness first followed by transparent witness. He became free from mental suffering at transparent witness:

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Soh Wei Yu

Reply2wEdited

John Tan

Soh Wei Yu how does insight of "I Am" got triggered via such method of seeing through "named things"?

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Soh Wei Yu

John Tan

To me I AM is triggered from self enquiry, not deconstruction. Seeing through named things is more on deconstruction

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John Tan

Soh Wei Yu so u r saying 1 will not lead to realization of "clarity" but just mere release of mental suffering?

Reply2w

Soh Wei Yu

John Tan

If the deconstruction of all conceptual notions goes along with meditation into a state of cessation of concepts, there is also a possibility of discovering pure awareness / I AM. Doesn’t have to be self enquiry. Like sim pern chong got there by breathing meditation, some people through psychedelics, some people through yoga, kundalini etc

Reply2w

John Tan

Soh Wei Yu yes but not necessarily until total cessation of concepts, however at a much later phase of de-construction. The insight by then will be much clearer and stable imo though it comes at a later phase of de-constructing. I m more interested in how and why.

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