Awakening to Reality: Someone asked about Pemako stages

Mr. DL shared a link.Awakening to Reality

Anyone heard of Pemako Sangha? Maybe some people in this group were or are presently practicing it. They claim to have had 13 people reach Full Buddhahood through their methods/teachings/practices. Not trying to start a turf war, I have no skin in the game haha (truly), just curious of what people's thoughts are, if any.

I'm not sure where the attainment of actual Buddhahood fits in the AtR seven stages framework (if it does "fit" at all).

MODERNMAHASIDDHA.COM

Fully Enlightened People in Pemako Sangha

I’ve collected a number of claims of enlightenment from traditional sources that I will include in my upcoming book. Here’s few of them. From The Supreme Source, Kunjed Gyalpo, The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde”, translated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Adriano Clemente: Ope...

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Mr. DL
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A discussion in their fb group with more details:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pemako/posts/10158222213661652/
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           Mr. BK
          I don't understand why you think it is bad to discuss and compare stages. In the name of openness and understanding it can only be a good thing to discuss these things.
          You must realize that you have provided a huge amount of reading. There must be a more simple way to describe AtR stages. If it takes an entire book, it is too complicated. Dharma is actually quite simple and should be able to be described in a simple way. Just my opinion.
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              Mr. OMA
              Mr. BK l think there is alot of comparison in AtR. Also l have to say l belive that it is necessary to have proper understanding experientally of whatever stage you comment on to be the right person to provide such comentaries, at least that is my opinion.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. BK Those articles are really not a lot. The AtR guide is much longer: 1000+ pages. Those articles are basically summary versions. Buddha never said the dharma is short and simple to understand... it often takes years of reading and meditating to understand it.. so I do encourage some form of patience in trying to understand the system. Not to oversimplify things.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              "This doctrine is profound, hard to see, difficult to understand, calm, sublime, not within the sphere of logic, subtle, to be understood by the wise". - MAJJHIMA NIKĀYA
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              Mr. OMA
              Soh Wei Yu this varies quite a bit though which teacher one refers to, not denying either of course.
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA John Tan wrote in 2007 to me even before I had any realisations:
              "(4:46 PM) Thusness: and I cannot say that he is right when it is wrong.
              (4:47 PM) Thusness: while what u said tends to prone towards theoretical and might confuse ppl, then is not bad
              (4:48 PM) Thusness: for u do not mislead ppl into thinking i have got it.
              (4:48 PM) AEN: maybe ultimately its wrong cos thats only relative truths, but its more like a matter of skillful means
              (4:48 PM) AEN: oic
              (4:48 PM) Thusness: but if u tell someone it is that simple and mislead ppl into thinking it is it, then that is misleading.
              (4:48 PM) AEN: icic..
              (4:49 PM) Thusness: all claims simplicity and directness
              (4:49 PM) Thusness: but none know the implication of tendencies.
              "
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA
              Usually those who oversimplify things simply miss out the subtlety and profundity of dharma and the depths of one's own ignorance and delusions.
              As John Tan said years ago, "Although Joan Tollifson spoke of the natural non-dual state as something “so simple, so immediate, so obvious, so ever-present that we often overlook”, we have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness. I believe Joan must have gone through a period of deep confusions, not to under-estimate it. 🙂" (Partial excerpt from: Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/three-paradigms-with-nondual-luminosity.html )
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
              AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
              Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity
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              Soh Wei YuAdmin
              Mr. OMA 2011 conversation:
              (12:48 AM) Thusness: lasttime comment is quite good but used in wrong situation
              many wants to come into buddhism and talk about simplicity and try to advice ppl not to over complicate matter
              (12:50 AM) AEN: oic..
              (12:50 AM) Thusness: this is a wrong approach
              simplicity is only realized after true certain realization
              (12:51 AM) AEN: ic..
              (12:51 AM) Thusness: do not come into Buddhism with this sort of mindset
              when our we see things with dualistic and inherent mind, there is no simplicity
              Have u seen and sutra that can be easily understood?
              🙂
              (12:53 AM) AEN: generally sutta that expounds prajna and insight cannot be understood easily.... thats why buddha said the dharma is only understood by the wise
              (12:57 AM) Thusness: from Avatamsaka sutra, heart sutra, lankavatara sutra, lotus sutra, Vimalakirti sutra, diamond sutra, perfect enlightenment sutra...
              i never come across any that is easy to understand
              so i just focus on one...lol
              heart sutra
              and it is already a big headache
              a sincere and serious practitioner should not come with a wrong mindset
              there is no easy way to overcome the inherent and dualistic view
              as much as we would like to...
              as for beacom, advice him not to see it that way
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              Mr. OMA
              Soh Wei Yu aight, l dont mean to oversimplify in the sense of dumbing it down. But there are differences on how people reach realization in terms of their study, readyness, teachings and so on. Of course studying and reflecting and attending teachings is very important.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Also, Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith shared this many times, this one a year ago:
"The point missed here is that bhumis do not refer to realizations, paths do. Bhumis are just measures of qualities.
In terms of awakened people, there is the path of seeing (first bhumi), and the path of cultivation (second through tenth). These two paths make up the ten bhumis. The path of no more learning is buddhahood.
The point is that when one has reached the path of seeing and entered the path of cultivation, buddhahood is inevitable, in some lifetime or another.
So, Dogen was pointing out something important. On the other hand, the realization of a buddha and that of a first stage bodhisattva are not really that different. They have realized the same emptiness. The difference is only the level of cultivation."
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1m

    Noah Starbuck
    Just one reference point among many - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=26401
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
    DHARMAWHEEL.NET
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
    Kim Katami (Pema Rinpoche, the terton) dangerous? - Dharma Wheel
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    Larry Ottaway
    I’ve practiced Zen for over 40 years and find Kim’s approach extremely useful. Try it for yourself. Proof of the pudding and all that….
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    Mr. KOÖ
    Avoid at all costs. Nothing to be taken seriously.
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    Cesare Saguato
    Think you'll find this group interesting Steve Todd. Pragmatic Vajrayana, open discussions and emphasises on somatic experience. Continuing to look...
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        Steve Todd
        Cesare Saguato I’m very wary of groups or people that need to advertise their attainments - it goes against the grain of the tradition and the wisdom of “non-attainment”. It also reminds me of all the New Age charlatans. What was the vibe like in the group discussions?
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            Cesare Saguato
            Steve Todd yes I know but that is the argument that pragmatic approaches have, that not discussing certain traditionally taboo topics openly is less helpful than doing so. I watched a video from a sangha member talking about his experience and it seemed grounded and familiar. I'm not promoting this group, it's teachers or approach though, just that you might find it interesting as from the very little I read they emphasise somatic work within a vajrayana context. Rinpoche and Tsering have always instructed me that "visualisation" is more about the feeling than visual forms.
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            Steve Todd
            Cesare Saguato 🙏
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    Mr. UM
    I'm one of these 13 people and will gladly answer all questions but it might take a day or two until I come to find time to reply. In Pemako we use the term Buddhahood like it is used in Mahamudra or Dzogchen as the achievement of complete nonmeditation where the view of emptiness becomes uninterrupted. There's no being "in" and "out" of the nature of mind anymore, no sense of obscuration by thoughts, emotions or the foggy phenomena of the substrate mind. The dualistic tendency of the mind to "subjectify" itself is seen through.
    However to be a little bit more precise, this is just the first stage of Buddhahood. It's the attainment of the mind of a Buddha: Dharmakaya. This is not yet the attainment of the speech and the body of a Buddha. These are maturations of the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya bodies which ultimately lead to the Rainbow Body. That's a whole different field of practice which only opens up with emptiness realization.
    To finish this comment, I just want so say that I completely understand all hesitation and doubt regarding the Pemako method and these claims. Yet, honest and systematic doubt is a pillar of pragmatic Dharma and always calls for critical curiosity rather than uncritical condemnation. Thank you.
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    Yin LingAdmin
    I only read abit in the link above. The group might have good stuff to offer, just the word “buddhahood” is very heavy.
    I have the experience of what they described, but I swear I’m not any where near buddhahood. It would be completely delusional if I say so.
    It’s is abit like how daniel Ingram call himself Arahant …
    One can call themselves anything they want just the only danger is
    One might stop practising if they think they have reached “Buddha hood “ which means “no more meditation” needed.
    Human life can be wasted…
    If the person practise hard for another few months and experience changes or deepen, just keep going..
    It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages. How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore.
    Just imo.
    But I won’t close the door to their teachings, just like Daniel’s teachings and insights are very helpful too.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling do you think Buddhahood is possible in this life, or no? What about all the masters who attained it relatively early in their lives, in their 30s? I wonder if the fact that it seems heavy and far away to you reinforces that it can't be reached. What do you think?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK
            If I don’t think it is possible, I wouldn’t be here right 😅
            But If u read some of the masters’ biographies…
            Eg tsongkhapa.. (who is not even considered Buddha yet correct me if I’m wrong .)
            Or milarepa.
            You will understand what I mean 😂 when I read their biographies, I know I need many more lifetimes to reach what they reach when they are half my age.
            I’m confused about reality but not confused about my lack of calibre 😂
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            Cesare Saguato
            Mr. BK as far as I've come to understand, traditionally speaking, when it's taught that the Vajrayana provides a path for Buddhahood to be realised in this life, it isn't referring to everyone but those with the highest capacity, moreover most of the people who fall into that category realise Buddhahood as part of the death process, when the ground luminosity is laid bare and recognised due to familiarisation through practice in this life or it is realised in the bardo. As the next life hasn't yet begun, it's said the practitioner has realised Buddhahood in this lifetime. That's not to say I don't think it's theoretically possible to realise Buddhahood before death, because I think it is but it also depends on what one means by Buddhahood too as there are different understandings like Mr. UM has mentioned. To become a Buddha or realise emptiness is one thing, to purify a Buddha field and fully develop the Svabhavikakaya is another.
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            Mr. BK
            Cesare Saguato yes merit or karmic readiness plays a role but if you are a person frequenting groups like AtR and are reading books about Dzogchen etc it is safe to say that you have approximately enough merit to seriously consider trying to attain Buddhahood in this life. It's really just a matter of being open to it, or being ready, and deciding that it is what you want. Once that is done, it can be attained by anyone with the right amount of determination.
            Perhaps these days enlightenment at death is more common, but historically it has been done within the lifetime and actually quite quickly. Padmasambhava had 25 disciples who attained in their lifetime. Dudjom Lingpa had 12 and he lived in middle of nowhere Tibet. And that's just scratching the surface. It's really just the modern mindset and lack of faith in dharma that make people think it is some impossible or very far away thing. This is the meaning of merit. If you think it is some far away thing for very special people not like you, then you are not open or ready to consider that it is possible for you to do in this lifetime. But if you are ready to consider it is possible and believe in your ability to do so, the path is wide open to you.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling If I may say..I think you are underestimating your potential. Milarepa and Tsongkhapa were not special beings above the rest of us. We all share that same potential. The teachings to attain full Buddhahood are out there in this world, right now, and anyone who truly wants to can attain it in this life. If I were an Awakening to Reality practitioner I would want to know, does this path lead to full Buddhahood and if so how?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK haha no I’m not underestimating my potential. 😂 I have the same potential as them, and like any other sentient.
            i just do not have 1% of Milarepa or tsongkhapa caliber. But that’s my own view. I’m not trying to be humble here. 😜
            If someone can answer u ur last Q, they must have achieve that already. If not why would u trust them?
            But the realisation are not a myth.
            The realization this group above is talking about can be reached , just knowing that is enough :. But that is really not buddhahood.
            Like.. come on now. lol.
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling When you say "that is really not buddhahood" what do you mean? What is not buddhahood? What is Buddhahood to you?
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            Yin LingAdmin
            Mr. BK I mean what they describe above in their experience of labelling those 13 ppl as first level Buddha is really not Buddhahood
            If it is I am a Buddha already and there’s many Buddhas in this group 😂😂😂But it’s ok if u like to think that too; as long as it is wholesome for ur practice. 🙂
            I need to go to bed to try to wake up to practise tmr coz I’m not at “no more learning” yet 😅
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        Mr. BK
        Yin Ling What do you call dharmadatu, the extinction of all phenomena, or realization of emptiness of all phenomena, if not the first stage of Buddhahood? Or are you saying you think they are wrong/not telling the truth and they have not attained dharmadatu emptiness of all phenomena?
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        Mr. BK
        And are you saying that you and others in this group have attained emptiness of all phenomena? That is fully realizing Sunyata. If you have done that, I believe that makes you a first stage Buddha.
        I am just trying to be clear about what exactly you mean. Thanks for your replies.
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Mr. DL
Author
Yin Ling I think using names to call yourself an Arahant or Jnani or whatever is fine, as long as you are literate in how the term is used, both scripturally and experientially. I.e. in terms of knowledge and experience.
I understand what you mean about people using names though to say they are "done". The other side of the coin is using experiences to say you are "done". So, you have to watch for both ways. It's easy to be led astray either way.
It's fine to use names as long as you understand it's mostly an aesthetic preference, like people giving themselves Tibetan or Sanskrit names. Is it annoying? Yeah, kinda.
But I think all lineage stuff has that problem: robes, names, bells, all the paraphernalia of lineage -- people rely way too much on that as a "sign" of realization. That's one reason why the style of the avadhuta (Tib. nyonpa) arose -- to show that realization *can* appear quite "at ease" with some of the least virtuous/moral aspects of samsaric existence. Even, immersed in it and happily so.
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Nafis Rahman
Mr. BK
Shardza Rinpoche (Bon Dzogchen teacher presumed to have realized rainbow body):
“Once the practice of self-arising/self-liberated is stable and automatic, the practitioner has begun the third and final map—the path of liberation that starts with the practice of self-arising/ self-liberated and has the final endpoint of stable enlightenment or complete liberation. This third set of teachings on the path to complete liberation includes the practice of dharmadhatu exhaustion, specific to exhausting ripening karmic propensities and afflictive emotions; sleep and dream yoga; the practice of Inner Fire to purify the residual substantiality of the physical body; the practice of the various levels of by-passing visions to purify ordinary perception and to bring about the complete exhaustion of impure perceptions; the practice of external appearances as illusions or dreams; direct manifestation of Buddha fields; the experiences of many realms and times all-at-once; and the experience of the final realizations, like the fruition of the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment, the five primordial wisdoms, omniscience, and the manifestation of inexhaustible enlightened activities toward all beings.”
The criteria for Buddhahood has always involved omniscience along with dissolving cognitive obscurations/actualizing twofold emptiness (such as manifesting an illusionary body) in addition to being free from emotional obscurations/10 fetters attained upon Arhatship.
*The Nine things an Arahant cannot do: 1. Store up possessions, 2. Intentionally kill any form of life, 3. Steal, 4. Perform sexual intercourse, 5. Tell a deliberate lie, 6. Act improperly out of desire, 7. Act improperly out of ill-will, 8. Act improperly out of delusion, 9. Act improperly out of fear (from Anguttara Nikaya 9.7)
Unless someone from Pemako can demonstrate that they are an omniscient being, it’s very misleading to label themselves as having attained Buddhahood. Realization of twofold emptiness is merely 1st bhumi out of 16.
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    Mr. BK
    Mr. OMA
    I have been a part of the sangha for four years, if people feel like reaching out or wonder something spesific l am happy to try to answer to the best of my knowledge 🙂
    Kim gives pointers in every teaching, so if one feels drawn to this system and practices one can attend and investigate by oneself.
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Yin Ling Yes. I like Daniel Ingram's sharing of dharma and he clearly has insight into anatta. But I do not agree that his description of the 4 paths line up with sutta version as explained in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
    According to suttas and sutras, an arahant is free from the slightest trace of the following afflictions, and also the 8th bhumi bodhisattva is likewise free from the famous ten fetters, and the following afflictions:
    appropriation (of any phenomena in terms of I-me-mine)/clinging/grasping/attachment (Upādāna), possessiveness, anxiety, fear (an arahant can fall from a 10 floor building and experience 0 fear, see: https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=397 ), sorrow (see: http://www.suttas.com/dhammapada-chapter-7-verse-90--99... and so on), anger, jealousy, desire (for: sensual pleasures, for form realm jhanic phenomena, for formless realm jhanic phenomena, for being, for non-being), depression, greed (lobha), hate (dosa), delusion (moha), conceit (māna), wrong views (micchāditthi), doubt (vicikicchā), torpor (thīnaṃ), restlessness (uddhaccaṃ), shamelessness (ahirikaṃ), recklessness (anottappaṃ)[7], all forms of I/me/mine-making.
    This means if these afflictions arise even for 0.1 second, that by definition mean you cannot be an arahant in accordance to the sutta/sutras/scriptures/Buddha's words, or an 8th bhumi bodhisattva.
    It should also be noted that you can be far away from 8th bhumi or arahant and yet most of those afflictions have vanished, or there are only faint traces of these, or maybe they arise even for 0.1 second in a year and then vanish, but by definition if they arise even a little bit or for a little while, it means you have not attained arahantship or 8th bhumi. If any of the above afflictions arise "for a moment but they self-liberate", then by definition you are not yet an arahant, or an 8th bhumi bodhisattva.
    Also some of those afflictions listed above totally vanish even at stream entry: wrong views and doubt. Some of them disappear completely at anagami, such as sensual desire (kāmacchando) and ill will. Some of them disappear completely at arahantship, such as conceit (māna)[11][12], restlessness (uddhacca)[13], ignorance (avijjā)[14]. I would also say it is super unlikely for some of those afflictive states above, such as depression, to arise even for someone at stream entry, although I will not make universal claims on its possibility.
    Also, I remember clearly Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith said that all teachings in Buddhism, Dzogchen included, holds Enlightenment [full enlightenment] to be the complete elimination of the twin obscurations of afflictive and knowledge obscurations. John Tan and I totally agree with this, and also this is indeed consistent throughout Buddhism.
    Likewise even in Mahamudra, which I like very much, it is also stated as such, the first paragraph describing the Yoga of Non-Meditation states:
    "Once the two obscurations, the afflictive and the cognitive, have become fundamentally purified, this is the most excellent elimination. No longer able to say, “This is formal meditation time and this is post meditation time,” one has become the all-encompassing purity of the spontaneously perfect three kayas, and thus this constitutes the most excellent realization.
    Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 287). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
    -- A must read Mahamudra book.
    It should be noted that if all of those afflictions do not arise in your experience for 99.9% of your daily life experience or even 99.99999% of your daily living experience, but they arise for 0.000001% of your daily life experience, that means you have definitely Not attained arahantship because the latent tendencies, the traces are still there. They just haven't activated most of the time because 1) the secondary conditions [situations] have not manifested to activate those traces, and 2) possibly due to your practice and insight, those traces and afflictions have become attenuated, so they don't arise so uncontrollably. But they are not completely gone yet.
    Whereas, the arahants, according to Buddha, have eliminated those traces of afflictions, according to the sutta here:
    And I will quote Buddha directly, partial excerpts:
    https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/.../alagaddupama.../
    The Arahant
    “This monk is called one who has removed the crossbar, has filled the moat, has broken the pillar, has unbolted (his mind); a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.
    “And how, monks, is that monk one who has removed the cross-bar? Herein the monk has abandoned ignorance, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus has he removed the cross-bar.
    “And how, monks, is that monk one who has filled the moat? Herein the monk has abandoned the round of rebirths, leading to renewed existence; he has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.
    “And how has he broken the pillar? He has abandoned craving, has cut it off at the root, removed it from its soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again.
    ...
    https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi?reference=none...
    ....
    “But, Mālunkyāputta, in what way do you remember the five lower fetters as taught by me?”
    “Venerable sir, I remember identity view as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember doubt as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember adherence to rules and observances as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember sensual desire as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember ill will as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. It is in this way, venerable sir, that I remember the five lower fetters as taught by the Blessed One.”
    “Mālunkyāputta, to whom do you remember my having taught these five lower fetters in that way? Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him. Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with this simile of the infant?”
    ....
    “There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that someone, by relying on that path, on that way, shall know and see and abandon the five lower fetters—this is possible. Just as, when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is possible that someone shall cut out its heartwood by cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is possible.
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        1hEdited

Mr. KS
Soh Wei Yu but where are the arahats? And how to know about their lost of fetters?
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Chappell Isom
Soh Wei Yu How can one have the fetter of conceit while also having anatta realization?
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Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Chappell Isom See http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../early-buddhism...

Excerpt:

Regarding conceit, well, I've already spoken a little about it recently so I'll just cut and paste it here:

Many people translate the fetter of conceit as 'pride', however, the fetter of conceit is not just in the sense of being 'proud'. I mean, pride etc is definitely a fetter. But also some people can be very humble, yet it does not mean they have overcome their 'I Am conceit'.

The 'I Am conceit' is more specifically described as a kind of trace, like a stench left over in a jug when the contents of the jug has been poured away. That trace of self remains after realization of anatta and then one has to liberate even that trace itself. That liberation of trace is Arahantship. This is clearly described in the Khemaka Sutta.

The Buddha said: Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires (i.e. anagami); But the abolition of the conceit "I am" (i.e. arahantship) — That is truly the supreme bliss.

Also, the Buddha said:

“The noble ones have seen as happiness

The ceasing of identity.

This [view] of those who clearly see

Runs counter to the entire world.

“What others speak of as happiness,

That the noble ones say is suffering;

What others speak of as suffering,

That the noble one know as bliss.”

So what is the difference between the 'view of self' and the 'trace of self'?

As Thusness wrote to me in 2011:

Session Start: 29 March 2011

Thusness: yeah of course

AEN: Ic

Thusness: if u do not feel the 'body construct' and 'mind construct', just the play of dharma, how does the sense of self arise?

AEN: It doesnt

Thusness: yeah...

Thusness: for me, it is just this dependent originated activity...

Thusness: primordially pure and luminous

Thusness: sense of self does not arise

Thusness: i do not see 'body' or 'mind'

Thusness: for there is no agent

Thusness: for u by now u should be clear on this

Thusness: experientially

Thusness: otherwise, u will not feel the 'process'

AEN: Ic..

Thusness: u told me about the mini maha experience

Thusness: so u should not feel the sense of self

AEN: Yea

Thusness: logically when the agent is gone, the primary cause for these sense of self should also be gone

Thusness: however due to the deeper dispositions, it continues to linger

Thusness: when u engage in this modern world, it re-enfore the identity

Thusness: so by seeing there is no-self in anatta, the sense of self should also dwindle

AEN: Ic

Thusness: when u practice and there is mind body drop

Thusness: due to de-construction of body and mind

Thusness: there is only purity of sensations

Thusness: it is just a lingering trace

Thusness: how does the sense of self arise?

Thusness: and that means it is simply a dispositions

Thusness: and during daily activity, there is re-enforcing of this trace

Thusness: when there is no agent, this trace will be seen as it is

Thusness: in non-dual and one mind, this is not just a trace

Thusness: u may have trace of identity

Thusness: but 'Self' (comments: self-view; that a truly existing self/Self exists) is not a trace

Thusness: it is as if it is truly 'there' and all there is

Thusness: but anatta is different

Thusness: for everything is like a trace

Thusness: and self is not any more special that an arising sound

Thusness: no diff

Thusness: can u understand the difference?

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Early Buddhism's Model of Awakening

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Soh Wei Yu

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"There is the self that arises from conceptual reification, seeing through that with anatta insight is entry point.

There is the self that arises in marketplace, in day to day activities, anatta of that is graduation." - John Tan, 2018

Also:

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"

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Soh Wei Yu

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Mr. KS There is a book where they supposedly interviewed living arahants, but those arahants chose to be interviewed anonymously. Arahants, if they exist today, are generally monks and renunciants. They are likely secluded and in retreats, although they can possibly be teachers. I have speculated that it is possible for Ajahn Brahmavamso to be an arahant a few months ago when someone asked, but it is just a wild guess and I can definitely be wrong.

Soh Wei Yu
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I believe this is the book but I haven't really read it. https://www.amazon.com.au/Entering-Stream.../dp/1781792046
AMAZON.COM.AU
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
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Soh Wei Yu
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The Buddha taught that this is a way to test if someone is an arahant - a good read:
https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
SuttaCentral
SuttaCentral
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    More in following post:
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Yin Ling Also I like what you said here: "It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages. How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore."
    I will add on these two sentences cos they are really two parts:
    'It’s good to focus on insight rather than stages.'
    This is good and has been the approach of John Tan so far. Me too, but I speak about stages when people request or there is a necessity to clarify things. Likewise, John Tan said many times he really does not like to talk about bhumis, paths to arahant, and so on. He never thinks in terms of these. But out of necessity, due to so many misunderstandings online about 'stream entry' and so on, this year he advised me to place this article to the top of AtR reading list as it clarifies much misunderstandings: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20
    Furthermore, there is really a need to clarify the subtlety of insights. Someone even at I AM level can claim to have an unshakeable insight or stable samadhi in the I AM. It also depends on the depth of his insight and samadhi. Greg Goode said that at mature phase or Transparent Witness, what AtR calls I AM with the maturity of four aspects, at that point there is already no more mental suffering. John Tan and I agree that with thorough deconstruction one will be free from mental suffering, even at such phase. But this not yet nondual or anatta realization, which are even more crucial realizations and insights but are distinct.
    Even in the nondual territority, there is really a need to clarify the subtleties, for example to point out clearly the difference between Stage 4 and 5, substantialist and nonsubstantialist nondual -- https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/7674846775890019/?__cft__[0]=AZXhVcVl1ZGYgJiriPwkLRM3VAoGX33lzG455RWD4M9G1vvU2bWX9betBGrHCRRKiNOXAuWrlLa5scNmyDD7ZlymleEs59FprGrq9wixjwRUm_bUgLuam650iwZHfOOFF93j3uhcvLztSolhvi1H8UC4YnhsrR1mD4B5cFVt8uQnfUpG5FBDxIXI8OEWTKR4Ims&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R
    Most people that got into nondual gets stuck at Stage 4, few proceed into what AtR calls anatta. And also anatta is not the end either.
    'How clear, how sustainable is the insight, whether dream is not karmic anymore.'
    Yes indeed. After anatta, shortly after anatta in fact, usually one reaches no entry and exit for anatta. I wrote in the comments section of http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html :
    "It is common to have an experience, but rare to have realization. Yet it is the realization of anatta that stabilizes the experience, or makes it effortless. For example, in my case, after the realization of anatta has arisen and stabilized, I do not have the slightest trace or sense of subject/object division or agency for about 8 years, till now, and John Tan reports the same for the past 20+ years (he realised anatta in 1997 and overcame the trace of background in a year or so). It should be noted that overcoming subject/object division and agency (which happens even at Thusness Stage 5) does not mean other subtler obscurations are eliminated -- the complete elimination of this is full Buddhahood (a topic that is discussed in Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood chapter in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind)." That comment was in 2018, so now I can report that I can recall no trace of subject/object division or agency for the past 11+ years since my anatta breakthrough.
    But karmic dreams can still occur even if extremely rarely and much less intense (meaning no nightmares, just momentary graspings or contents of a karmic nature, etc), means with karmic contents or grasping. Even if they dramatically lessen. It depends on situations and life engagements. When one is totally liberated there is no more grasping, no more traces I-me-mine whatsoever throughout waking and sleep.
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        Yin LingAdmin
        Soh Wei Yu Thanks for these, very good.
        I don’t like to think of stages not bec I don’t believe in achieving them but I have been terribly wrong before following daniel Ingram classification of stream entry.
        The idea of “cessation” as stream entry is so so deluded lol. I have many cessations involuntarily due to the sort of practice I did, but it doesn’t change any of my perception.
        At that point before real insight my teacher tell me I have stream entry, i really believe it because How would I know what is insight if I have never have any insight before ?
        And then one is happy for no reason.. only after I keep on practicing intensely for another year when real insight of no self comes , I understand what’s what.
        The whole perception will change so drastically like one operate in another dimension lol.
        What if I stop practice at the first point?
        And think cesssstion is stream entry?
        That would have been such a waste of my human life .
        So I don’t want to call it anything now for 99% it’s gonna be overestimating myself 🤦🏻‍♀️
        So the point is, it’s not that I don’t think buddhahood is impossible (duh- then I might as well go karaoke then meditate)..
        But being honest and realistic and not have the head stuck in some cloud 9 is important.
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Soh Wei Yu

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Yin Ling

Yes. And it's not so much the word 'cessation' that is a problem but what cessation? Daniel/mctb/mahasi is teaching a non-analytical cessation -

this is not the same as Buddha's or Arahant's Nirvana in scriptures, which is an analytical cessation. This applies from Theravada to Zen, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Cessation

Subdivisions

Cessation is of two kinds:

analytical (Skt. pratisaṃkhyā-nirodha; Tib. སོ་སོར་བརྟགས་པའི་འགོག་པ་, sosor takpé gokpa, Wyl. so sor brtags pa'i 'gog pa) and

non-analytical (Skt. apratisaṃkhyā-nirodha; Tib. བརྟགས་མིན་འགོག་པ་, tak min gokpa, Wyl. brtags min 'gog pa).

In his commentary to Mipham Rinpoche’s Khenjuk, Khenpo Nüden writes:

Analytical cessation

This is the unconditioned aspect of the permanent elimination of destructive emotions and other factors to be eliminated, through the force of developing realization of the undefiling path, such as the wisdom of discernment, within the mind.

Non-analytical cessation

This does not refer to the ceasing of latent habitual tendencies as a result of analysis and investigation, but rather to the absence of a given thing in a particular place due to an incompleteness of necessary causes and conditions, as in the case of horns on a horse’s head, for instance. Another example which is mentioned in the commentaries is the fact that other types of consciousness do not arise when the eye-consciousness is distracted by a visual form. This also includes all the various forms of non-existence (or absence), such as the absence of a vase in a particular place.

RIGPAWIKI.ORG

Cessation - Rigpa Wiki

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Yin Ling
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Soh Wei Yu
Oh yes, no in mctb parlance they did not mean the above 2, just a “black out” or “fruition”.
It can give a retrospective understanding of how consciousness works imo because of the whole shut down outside and inside altogether .. but not the cutting through insight. Just imo, coz some ppl will place huge importance on that
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Soh Wei Yu
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Yin Ling In John Tan's parlance, we consider blackout cessations, or even nirvikalpa samadhis (sensory blankout into I AM Presence), as part of non-analytical cessations
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    Having said all these it is important indeed not to 'close the door' to teachers like Daniel Ingram. They provide important teachings that John Tan and I appreciate very much.
    As for Pemako, likewise, I have resisted calls in the other FB group Dharma Connection to ban their accounts. I told the members I take a non interfering approach as an admin: people are welcome to post Pemako materials and people are also welcome to refute any of their claims or bring up topics for discussion, I will neither remove Pemako members nor the posts of those refuters. I believe Pemako engages in some advertising campaign regularly but I take a non interfering approach. But of course AtR group is different, no advertising is allowed here (one off posting is ok for discussion) as this group aims to be focused on AtR blog materials. (Pemako doesn't advertise here, I just mentioned it to clarify the group stance or policy)
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    Soh Wei YuAdmin
    i.e. even if I agree or disagree with aspects of Pemako discourses, some people may find benefit from it, have certain breakthroughs or insights from it, therefore I do not remove it from the Dharma Connection group.
    If it were a totally harmful cult that causes someone to enter an unwholesome path then I will remove. I think Pemako is not 'unwholesome' even though there may be aspects others do not agree with.
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Jason Vajra

I don't know about that group, but a good rule of thumb is that if someone claims they're enlightened, they obviously aren't.

Alejandro Serrano

Jason Vajra unless he is.

“I have destroyed those taints by which

I might have been reborn as a deva

or as a gandhabba that travels through the sky;

by which I might have reached the state of a yakkha,

or arrived back at the human state:

I have dispelled and cut down these taints.

As a lovely white lotus

is not soiled by the water,

I am not soiled by the world:

therefore, O brahmin, I am a Buddha.”

Edited

- Jason Vajra
  Alejandro Serrano When you have miraculous siddhis to back it up, like stopping rampaging elephants and murderers intent on taking your life and the other such things attributed to the Buddha, I may accept the claim isn't just hubris. I have yet to see anyone in the modern world claim enlightenment not acting out of ego.
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Nafis Rahman
Originally posted this reply in a sub-thread above
Shardza Rinpoche (Bon Dzogchen teacher presumed to have realized rainbow body):
“Once the practice of self-arising/self-liberated is stable and automatic, the practitioner has begun the third and final map—the path of liberation that starts with the practice of self-arising/ self-liberated and has the final endpoint of stable enlightenment or complete liberation. This third set of teachings on the path to complete liberation includes the practice of dharmadhatu exhaustion, specific to exhausting ripening karmic propensities and afflictive emotions; sleep and dream yoga; the practice of Inner Fire to purify the residual substantiality of the physical body; the practice of the various levels of by-passing visions to purify ordinary perception and to bring about the complete exhaustion of impure perceptions; the practice of external appearances as illusions or dreams; direct manifestation of Buddha fields; the experiences of many realms and times all-at-once; and the experience of the final realizations, like the fruition of the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment, the five primordial wisdoms, omniscience, and the manifestation of inexhaustible enlightened activities toward all beings.”
The criteria for Buddhahood has always involved omniscience along with dissolving cognitive obscurations/actualizing twofold emptiness (such as manifesting an illusionary body) in addition to being free from emotional obscurations/10 fetters attained upon Arhatship.
*The Nine things an Arahant cannot do: 1. Store up possessions, 2. Intentionally kill any form of life, 3. Steal, 4. Perform sexual intercourse, 5. Tell a deliberate lie, 6. Act improperly out of desire, 7. Act improperly out of ill-will, 8. Act improperly out of delusion, 9. Act improperly out of fear (from Anguttara Nikaya 9.7)
Unless someone from Pemako can demonstrate that they are an omniscient being, it’s very misleading to label themselves as having attained Buddhahood. Realization of twofold emptiness is merely 1st bhumi out of 16.
Added just now:
More importantly I have gone through the articles in their website, and what they describe as ‘emptiness’ is merely Advaita in disguise. The view and insight expressed is completely substantialist. Not even ATR stage 5/Anatta realization/MCBT 4th Path/Pali Canon Stream-Entry. What they describe as realizing anatta based upon their two-part formula is actually I AM and Impersonality. I usually don’t comment on these sorts of posts, but I think it’s important to clarify if anyone decides to attend their teachings. There is also the issue of being a self-declared rinpoche outside of standard lineages, lacking the ability to confer proper lungs and empowerments etc, but that is a different topic altogether.
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- Yin Ling
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  Nafis Rahman u said what i wanted to say but did not dare to, Nafis. thanks.
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- Soh Wei Yu
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  Nafis Rahman Interesting comment. I will neither confirm nor refute this comment because I will need to read Kim Katami's writings and listen more of his talks more to ascertain these statements for myself, especially on this part, "what they describe as ‘emptiness’ is merely Advaita in disguise". Even if I have ascertained them for myself, I shall not comment publicly because it is not good for me to comment on others. I also have become non confrontational over the years in my approach and try to speak skillfully based on conditions. As I wrote to Yin Ling, "...nowadays my approach is hopefully less confrontational, more on skillful means... i talk about god to christian mystic and point them towards to anatta, i talk about brahman and ramana to advaita followers and try to bring them into nondual, i try to point out to eckhart tolle and other spiritual teachers..." to which John Tan said, "That is good. Be skillful."
  But still, thanks for sharing your views.
  At this point, I cannot confirm whether Kim Katami is holding Vedantic or substantialist views opposed to anatman, dependent origination and shunyata. Maybe someone can private message me the details.
  But indeed, this is also why I kept sharing the same message many times with people (numerous people in just a few days!) clarifying for example, Stage 4 and 5 because it is so easy to get stuck at substantialist view, so many do, even in the nondual phase. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between...
  There is also a need to clarify the different faces and aspects of self/Self -- many people mistaken no-self to mean impersonality and non-doership alone, or substantialist nondual, but there are other aspects -- see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress... . Impersonality is not nondual, nondual is not anatta, impersonality is not I AM and I AM is not impersonality -- impersonality happens before and for many without I AM realization in Liberation Unleashed, even though both are important. http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../is-liberation...
  Then for the Stage 6 emptiness, it is important to understand from dependent origination, using the rainbow analogy here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../emptiness-non...
  Until dependent origination, non-arising, illusoriness, everything becomes clear, like a rainbow and reflection, in view, experience, realisation.
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- Soh Wei Yu
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  Edited my post above.
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Mr. OMA
Nafis Rahman
To make a thing clear, 2pf is not anatta realization this is not what Kim or Pemako says. It is what you say, I Am or impersonality, or close to first path as Ingram describe it (l know Soh distinuish this too, but see it as first shift or breakthrough ). In Pemako if we have something corresponding to anatta it is 6th bhumi, and more proper 6th bhumi perfected, which means deepening of these first 6 inisght to a great degree.
But even that as far as l can see might differ in some aspect due to method and practice and l find it sort of hard to make parallell correspondings with say AtR path map, though l would say some similarities.
I think here in AtR one usually say anatta is 1st bhumi though, which again is different from Pemako. But 2pf is just a preliminary to get a taste and then something like anatta comes much later, that was my point
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Yin LingAdmin
Mr. OMA
Thanks. It’s good to follow the standard teaching and not have our own definitions of the Buddhas teaching.
Soh just posted another very good post on Buddhahood definition and criteria, hope u benefit
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13h
Mr. OMA
Yin Ling l saw the post, will look at it after work.
You dont know if Pemako and Kim uses its own definition or not though .. Pemako is missunderstood alot. Someone just said 2pf is anatta, Soh refered to Ugi post as one taste. Both of this is is simply wrong, no one says this and it is not written anywhere. It is not at all accurate description of the Pemako map. l dont try to be difficult, but what am l to say?
I am very aware that Pemako is different to most peoples understanding, but then this is my responsibility if l still want to practice and learn from Kim.
I also attend other teachings and read books and l follow f.ex AtR blog. If at some point Pemako would not deliver, l would be gone in an instant really.
Then it is other peoples responsibility that when they describe or try to understand the path, to do it properly, ask Kim ask me, attend teachings try the practices. If it is simply from the outside looking in one ends up in missunderstandings and can also misslead others. Sorry for being harsh, but felt it was needed now. Have a good day
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Yin LingAdmin
Mr. OMA
Yup agree that everyone should have their own discernment about following teachers. And take full consequences of one’s practice.
Be aware I have zero interested in both ATR nor pemako nor the Buddha’s teaching . I have never paid anyone here or there to teach me, so no invested interest to take side.
My interest is probably to shorten other ppls struggles in their practice. And maybe if I feel a practice will waste a lot of their time, I try to warn.
but if it’s not right for u, just take what I say as blah3 nonsense.
Because I won’t feel hurt not anything due to no invested interest hehe cheers.
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8h
Pablo Pintabona
Mr. OMA Yin Ling There was a previous exchange 6 months ago with Mr. UM about 2PF and I AM in this DhO thread. Me asuming that 2PF (a customized self-inquiry method) results in I AM with its particular proportions of Impersonality (+) and Luminosity (-). And he answering back that the experience/realisation varies in each individual, but that it's about a first taste of going beyond identification. Regarding Daniel Ingram's opinion, he speculated on another thread that 2PF is some sort of solidification of High-EQ pre-SE. https://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../mes.../message/23419003
DHARMAOVERGROUND.ORG
Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
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Mr. OMA
Pablo Pintabona not everyone in the sangha uses 2pf, but get a first taste other ways. We had one practitioner in the sangha for a while who got to 2nd or 3rd path with daniel ingrams path, and he was pretty clear that 2pf was corresponding to his stream entry.
But it is as Ugi says, it varies. Some people have long honeymoon for months and even years (especially if you have practiced alot and have alot of momentum), with feeling little need to practice maybe for a while, while other have more dry ones. I had about two weeks after that first of being sort of baffled by the new way of experience the world, before l started looking into practices again and wanted to keep digging.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA Yes, I too gathered from Kim's website and blog over the past 1 or 2 days, how he maps I AM and Impersonality to bhumi 1 to 5 (this is different from AtR as you correctly indicated, which establishes 1st bhumi as this insight: "...The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition." ).
And he maps 6 to 9 (or 10?) as nondual, because he keeps mentioning one taste (i.e. http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../problems-with... , http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../about... ). But I did not read him elaborate so much on this. But I can see it refers to nondual.
Even here, about nondual, there is a need to thread very careful and distinguish clearly between substantial and insubstantial nonduality:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../difference-between...
For example the understanding taught by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh is the anatta sort of understanding and insight: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../sun-of-awareness...
On the other hand, Ken Wilber kept speaking about one taste, he distinguishes it from the I AM/Witness too. But his one taste is clearly the thusness stage 4, substantialist nondual sort of understanding. It is nondual, substantialist nondual, but not the same as anatta or Buddhist understanding, nor stream entry/first bhumi.
Ken Wilber's understanding is not the same as Mahamudra's one taste, although he thought it is the same. Note that I am not saying Kim Katami is having Ken Wilber's understanding, I am just saying there needs to be clarity and clarification on the distinctions.
Will paste a relevant passage next:
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Edited
Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu mhm.. if you are currious about Pemako map just ask me and l can try to help you hopefully too there will be a book this year of the people who have crossed all of it and their description of it.
Also, and this is sort of what l think would be best for you if you have plans to investigate it dome more. See if you can map yourself from that point of view, meaning apply the model on yourself. Not through reading but how we do it by searching your energy body, yogic style it can take a little time but its the best way and you will properly see what it is about. Can help you with that too if you like.
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Mr. OMA
Mentioning one taste l would say it is perfection of 8th bhumi, so its after anatta and waaay later than Ken Wilber territory.
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
This description by Ugi is just the one taste of luminosity (not mahamudra one taste), not the anatta realisation. It is no different from Ken Wilber’s understanding. I hope there is clarification about the anatta insight as distinct from nondual insight:
Ugi
Dec '21
I’d like to take this opportunity to explain a very crucial point that is often made in the teachings of Dzogchen and Mahamudra. The importance of being able to differentiate between recognicing the clarity of Rigpa/nature of mind and the meditative experience of clarity.
In the picture below you can see the same forest in two pictures. The first one is rather blurry and the second one is very sharp.
When you recognise the nature of mind, a very common effect of that recognition is an enhanced clarity/sharpness of experience. Suddenly you’re not in forest 1 anymore but in forest 2.
You can pretty much objectively pinpoint to what constitutes that enhanced clarity/sharpness. More light, more pronounced edges, more distinguished colors …
However, that enhanced clarity is NOT the same as the clarity aspect of Rigpa. That’s where people go astray and get attached to the meditative experience of enhanced clarity/sharpness.
If you conclude that this experiential quality of sharpness IS Rigpa then you only fixate on another experience and concept. And then you try to reproduce that sharpness whenever you think you’re doing Atiyoga. Of course one can be successful in producing that sharpness at will and stay as long in it as one wants but that’s just concentration practice and not Atiyoga/nonmeditatin.
What then is the clarity aspect of Rigpa? Look at the two forests again below. Isn’t the visual experience of both forests instantly clear and known? Are you not clearly aware, without any words that forest 1 looks like forest 1, and forest 2 looks like forest 2? This clear awareness of that you see what you see, whether blurry or sharp, whether tired or highly alert, whether colourful or grey, that is the clarity aspect of Rigpa.
You cannot single it out as an experience but it permeates evenly and uninterruptedly all experience that takes place. It’s in the awareness of form aswell as in the awareness of absence of form. It’s not an “it” actually but it is inseparable from all “it-ness”. It has no location and no center, no here and no there.
The same by the way goes for the other two common meditative experiences that accompany recognition of mind essence: absence of thought and bliss.
I trust that this is helpful.
May all beings be free.�Ugi
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9h
Edited
Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu this is just to describe rigpa and distinguish it from other clearity states, has nothing to do with one taste.
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9h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
It will be interesting if anyone in Pemako sangha described this:
August 2010:
“(11:07 PM) Thusness: for example you see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.
(11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization
(11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
leave appearances alone:
The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
-Tilopa
this is very good
(11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
ask luckystrikes
(11:52 PM) AEN: ok posted
(12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.
(12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.
(12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta
(12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness: what’s left in is the intensity of practice.
(12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness” (Scott Kiloby wrote more recently: https://www.kiloby.com/.../the-case-against-awareness-a...
…
[3:44 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
the Witness collapses after the gestalt of arisings are seen through in Direct Path. Objects, as you have already mentioned, should have been thoroughly deconstructed before. With objects and arisings deconstructed there is nothing to be a Witness of and it collapses.
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· 1m
[3:46 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Not true. Object and arising can also collapse through subsuming into an all encompassing awareness.
[3:48 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: yeah but its like nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: means after the collapse of the Witness and arising, it can be nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but still one mind
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: right?
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but then atmananda also said at the end even the notion of consciousness dissolves
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think thats like one mind into no mind but im not sure whether it talks about anatta
[3:50 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Yes.
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
where is the notion of "all encompassing awareness". Sounds like awareness is being reified as a container.
· Reply
· 5m
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
also when you say Consciousness dissolves, you have to first answer how did it ever exist in the first place?
· Reply
· 4m
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: lol
[4:01 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: In subsuming there is no container-contained relationship, there is only Awareness.
[4:03 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
So Soh Wei Yu
how does Awareness "remain"? Where and how?
· Reply
· 1m
[4:04 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Anyway this is not for unnecessary debates, if he truly understands then just let it be.
.....
KILOBY.COM
The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way - Kiloby.com
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
"Yes. Subject and object can both collapsed into pure seeing but it is only when this pure seeing is also dropped/exhausted that natural spontaneity and effortlessness can begin to function marvelously. That is why it has to be thorough and all the "emphasis". But I think he gets it, so you don't have to keep nagging ." - John Tan
“The arising and ceasing is called the Transience,
Is self luminous and self perfected from beginning.
However due to the karmic propensity that divides,
The mind separates the ‘brilliance’ from the ever arising and ceasing.
This karmic illusion constructs ‘the brilliance’,
Into an object that is permanent and unchanging.
The ‘unchanging’ which appears unimaginably real,
Only exists in subtle thinking and recalling.
In essence the luminosity is itself empty,
Is already unborn, unconditioned and ever pervading.
Therefore fear not the arising and ceasing.
-------------
There is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.
The emptiness nature that is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.
Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence, its non-locality.
~ John Tan
And hence... "Awareness" is not anymore "special" or "ultimate" than the transient mind.”- 2008
…
“Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.
Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.
Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020
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8h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
Also, this insight of anatta described by Thich Nhat Hanh:
“
some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --
"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'."
"..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming...."
"In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."
---------------- Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: "...as a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."
- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../sun-of-awareness...
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
I like what Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith said about rigpa too:
“Another interesting 'technical' point since this is DhO. There was a point in his retreat where Arcaya Malcolm Smith described how at the mature phase of Dzogchen practice, the 'vidya'/'rigpa' (the knowing/knowledge) is exhausted where the vidya and dhatu (something like knowing and field of experience) totally collapsed in a 1:1 synchrony (and he gestured two circles coming together), whereas before that point [the exhaustion of vidya] there is a sort of out of phase issue between vidya and dhatu. Somehow it really reminded me of one of Daniel's descriptions in MCTB on fourth path. His student Kyle did inform me that it is the same as what I call anatta realization [which I realised almost 10 years ago, it is the same as MCTB's fourth path]. Also, Malcolm mentioned many people have the wrong idea that Vidya/Rigpa is some eternal thing that just goes on forever, but it too is exhausted later along with all other phenomena [although this is not annihilation as appearances/pure vision still manifest] (elaboration: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../acarya-malcolm... )."
Likewise, Kyle Dixon, that Malcolm told me over dinner was the first student of his that totally understood his teaching, also said in 2014, "'Self luminous' and 'self knowing' are concepts which are used to convey the absence of a subjective reference point which is mediating the manifestation of appearance. Instead of a subjective cognition or knower which is 'illuminating' objective appearances, it is realized that the sheer exertion of our cognition has always and only been the sheer exertion of appearance itself. Or rather that cognition and appearance are not valid as anything in themselves. Since both are merely fabricated qualities neither can be validated or found when sought. This is not a union of subject and object, but is the recognition that the subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya]. ", "The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity and emptiness." - Kyle
Kyle also shared with me,
‎[10/10/21, 1:12:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎‎Kyle Dixon:
Is primordial knowing a gloss of ye shes?
I assume so
Dzogchen will even go as far as to say Buddhas do not even have ye shes
Some Mahāyāna texts say this too
Because if they really had jñāna it could be misconstrued as a subjective reference point
…
‎[10/10/21, 1:57:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Kyle Dixon: Longchenpa:
From
the [ultimate] perspective the meditative equipoise of the realised (sa
thob) and awakened beings (sangs rgyas), there exists neither object of
knowledge (shes bya) nor knowing cognitive process (shes byed) and so
forth, for there is neither object to apprehend nor the subject that
does the apprehending. Even the exalted cognitive process (yeshes) as a
subject ceases (zhi ba) to operate.
[10/10/21, 1:59:33 PM] John Tan: (thumbs up)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
Awakening to Reality
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Mr. OMA
Soh Wei Yu read it before start seeing you dont actually post that much stuff, mostly repetative things
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
Mr. OMA
Yes i like to repost stuff if it gets the message across
Anyway my point is it will be good if pemako members wrote anything on this
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4h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
“Don’t reinvent the wheel”
I pasted the same stuff to thousands of people online
I will be dead if i need to rewrite everything each time
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4h

Reply to Nafis Rahman…
- Soh Wei Yu
  Admin
  “Don’t reinvent the wheel”
  I pasted the same stuff to thousands of people online
  I will be dead if i need to rewrite everything each time
  4
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  1d
- Mr. OMA
  Soh Wei Yu I read the Thich Nhat Hanh text, its really lovely.
  I used to contemplate like this, and mind would get really waste to the point it started to frighten me and I would stop it few times. But it was a very intuitive way of thinking for a long time and still is.
  How I think about it now though is more like this: if this is, that is. Looking at the wall, there is the wall and the eyes, there would not be a wall without the sight or eyes, and the sight is conditioned by the wall, colors, light etc.. there is a subtle subject-object thing this implies though, but it is so subtle that it feels almost artificial (which I think, ultimately it is).
  To me then the next contemplation is; it is the same nature in me as in the wall, and so how I think about be and the wall as a kind of this-that, in essense is also conditioned on a obscured duality of kind?
  Not meaning the wall and Oskar is the same thing, but we do have the same nature (appearances are by nature dual), so its ok to say that these appearances share the same nature.
  So to me it seems necessary to get to the cessation of this whole thing, right?
  I have not though, so I cannot say where it would take me as and actual realization (I prefer talking about stuff I have confidence in through experience and realization), and I also dont think it would refute the this-that. That being said I wonder if you get to the cessation of this and that, is there dependency still? To me atm I think dependency will keep deepening in profoundity, Though at the same time this is empty, and there is no contradiction...
  I agree that it would be great if Pemako had a foot in the middle way camp and could maybe write or discuss like this more, both for us and for other, and I want to go there at some point but I dont feel ready yet.
  But then we d o have a path map, and the effect is really quick, there is no way around this.
  Like the negative emotions I have had has lessened to such an degree that it feels silly to do something else atm, like trying to understand nagarjuna for 3 hours one day vs practice for 3 hours ... would simply take too much time away from a practice I already know gives result. Might sound silly, but it is how I feel about it at least.
  It does not mean I dont value it or think it is not important, and as mentioned I try to attend teachings or see talks by teachers. But as mentioned, atm it feels more important to practice.
  But I appreciate the stuff you post, and especially DO is something that I keep comming back to.
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  21h
- Nafis Rahman
  Mr. OMA
  http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/.../ramana-eckhart...
  In this article they stated that Eckhart Tolle in on the bhumis despite having substantialist insights. Unfortunately it seems that their map lacks clarity regarding the differences between substantialist and non-substantialist non-duality.
  However even for insights such as I AM and One-Mind, one can experience a great deal of bliss and reduction of negative emotions. For example, Eckhart Tolle in his book Power of Now states:
  "I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.
  A beautiful Groundsel flower blossom shows the harmonious manifestation of nature
  That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world."
  There are similar descriptions in books by Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, etc. In many cases, practitioners have eliminated long-term depression and also anxiety disorders through these insights, although it might not be equivalent to anatta or emptiness. Decided to speak directly and post this comment since you seem sincere regarding spiritual practice and have a desire to reach the highest level possible.
  OPENHEARTOPENHEART.BLOGSPOT.COM
  Ramana, Eckhart Tolle and Bhumis
  Ramana, Eckhart Tolle and Bhumis
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  11h
- Nafis Rahman
  I usually don’t share personal experiences within the group, but this is a description of anatta for example that I wrote a long time ago while replying to someone else in pm:
  Even now I wouldn’t say I am is totally gone, instead the solidity has dissolved. Just the feeling of direct sensory experience without any sense of artificialness or an internal perceiver – after anatta it was just sound. Then it was being in a universe of sound. Now when I listen to music, it feels like it’s coming from inside me, as if I have become sound itself. So direct and intimate that it’s not possible to find any separation whatsoever even though I’m not exactly “sound”.
  I know this is completely different from what you are expecting from me, but “I” these days is just experienced as this universal manifestation. After total exertion, I really feel that I’m just a random speck in the universe, while being the universe itself simultaneously, this “I” now encompasses everything around me along with every experience possible. Who am I can’t be separated from just this glorious/ordinary process of life creating itself in every moment.
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