Session Start: Sunday, November 19, 2006

(10:45 PM) John: but not entirely so.

(10:46 PM) AEN: oic then..?

(10:48 PM) John: when the mind turns away from the source and focus on manifestation, it forgoes images and realises its intimate relationship btw with the arising and ceasing

(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:48 PM) John: however it is not entirely clear yet due to habitual energy though the glimpse is strong

(10:48 PM) John: that it is the reality

(10:48 PM) John: but it is still not clear.

(10:48 PM) AEN: oic

(10:48 PM) John: this is a crucial state

(10:48 PM) John: very crucial in fact

(10:49 PM) John: in either sinking back to a source as in the advaita or buddhism anatta

(10:49 PM) AEN: icic...

(10:50 PM) AEN: so when ajahn amaro said

(10:50 PM) AEN: It's very simple and natural. We relax and notice that which has been here all along, like noticing the space in a room. We don't notice space, because it doesn't grab our 

attention; it isn't exciting. Similarly, nibbana has no feature, no color, no taste and no form, so we don't realize it's right here. The perceptual systems and the naming activity of the 

mind work on forms; that's what they go to first. Therefore we tend to miss what's always here. Actually, because it has no living quality to it, space is the worst as well as the best 

example, but sometimes it is reasonable to use it.

(10:51 PM) AEN: its not entirely correct right

(10:52 PM) John: once the source is discarded, the experiences becomes only the arising and ceasing and causes and condition is realised.

(10:52 PM) John: that is source is replaced by DO. (Dependent Origination)

(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:53 PM) John: but DO (Dependent Origination) is to really to tok about the arising and ceasing without 'self' in a conventional way.

(10:53 PM) AEN: o icic...

(10:53 PM) John: it is the most appropriate way to describe what that cannot be described in a non-self way

(10:53 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:54 PM) John: what that is more important is the experience of manifestation as the source

(10:54 PM) John: and not to sink back to a source as there is no source apart from the arising and ceasing

(10:54 PM) John: samsara is nirvana

(10:54 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:54 PM) John: it is only that the cognition that longchen said that is superimposed on the imagelessness reality that is the problem.

(10:55 PM) John: all along, the manifestation is really the source

(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:55 PM) John: once the extra source that is the habitual energy is given up, Presence is felt everywhere in all arising and ceasing

(10:56 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:56 PM) John: that is from moment to moment, Presence is experienced in varying conditions

(10:56 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:57 PM) John: from blinking eyes...moment to moment...in raising legs, standing up, feet touching ground...moment to moment...presence that is stage 1 is experience in all  

phenomena arising and ceasing

(10:57 PM) John: only the thinking, the hearing, the seeing...

(10:57 PM) John: moment to moment

(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:57 PM) John: conditions shifts and changes

(10:58 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:58 PM) John: this must be very thorough then the luminosity-emptiness without sinking back to a Source can be experienced

(10:58 PM) John: this is the whole purpose of mindfulness

(10:58 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:59 PM) John: but it becomes tedious for a mind that has not experience no-self or stage 5

(10:59 PM) AEN: icic...

(10:59 PM) John: but to a person that has experienced stage 5, he wants to know even the minutest details

(10:59 PM) John: of every single moment...this i told u before right?

(11:00 PM) AEN: ya.. but u say its not right or something? lol

(11:00 PM) AEN: and u said its only the beginning

(11:00 PM) John: it rests sort of absorption yet awareness in the moment to moment

(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:01 PM) John: this is just the beginning of experiencing anatta in the correct sense

(11:01 PM) John: till this experience is stabilized

(11:01 PM) AEN: oic

(11:02 PM) John: then one becomes transparent

(11:02 PM) John: transparency is a very distinct experience

(11:02 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:02 PM) John: it is total vividness, clarity

(11:02 PM) AEN:

<^john^> in fact, ur master would want to experience that pure sensation resulting for differing condition

<^john^> but one should not over do it. :)

(11:03 PM) John: experiencing just the things

(11:03 PM) John: yes...it must come with realisation

(11:03 PM) John: not through will effort

(11:03 PM) AEN: oic

(11:03 PM) John: that is the realisation brings and carries us naturally to this experience

(11:04 PM) John: the realisation and experience of anatta...

(11:04 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:04 PM) John: if we forcefully do it, we will not be able to make it.

(11:04 PM) John: however it is a good practice

(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:05 PM) John: to reverse the habitual energy of continuous symbolizing

(11:06 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:06 PM) John: once transparency is experienced the first fruition of insight samadhi is experienced.

(11:06 PM) AEN: oic

(11:07 PM) John: this stage is important. :)

(11:07 PM) John: for now, i want to put it more clear to longchen later...

(11:07 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:07 PM) John: the part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO otherwise one will sink back to a source

(11:08 PM) John: very often, this is the case

(11:08 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:09 PM) John: so don't underestimate the simple sentence of "manifestation is the source"

(11:09 PM) AEN: ok

(11:09 PM) John: it is the key to non-duality then lead to DO.

(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:09 PM) John: it must be DO that lead one out of the source.

(11:09 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:10 PM) John: then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place

(11:10 PM) John: otherwise we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila

(11:10 PM) John: a game plot of God.

(11:10 PM) AEN: oic

(11:10 PM) John: :)

(11:11 PM) John: that is because causes and conditions is not understood

(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:11 PM) John: and how awareness becomes causes and conditions

(11:11 PM) AEN: oic

(11:12 PM) John: when luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya

(11:12 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:12 PM) John: by experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough

(11:13 PM) AEN: oic

(11:13 PM) John: it is at best not to tok about transcendental body

(11:13 PM) AEN: lol ok

(11:14 PM) John: and should not confuse ppl unnecessarily

(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:15 PM) John: actually my intention of toking about stage 5, manifestation is the source is only to longchen initially

(11:16 PM) John: and later JonLS.

(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:16 PM) John: not to others as it will only confuse them

(11:16 PM) AEN: icic

(11:17 PM) John: do u know that longchen almost gave up once?

(11:17 PM) AEN: haha how come

(11:17 PM) AEN: when

(11:17 PM) John: forgotten. :P

(11:17 PM) AEN: o i remember something like he doesnt want to be liberated.. or something

(11:17 PM) John: yeah

(11:17 PM) AEN: lol

(11:17 PM) AEN: icic

(11:17 PM) AEN: i remember

(11:18 PM) John: cause the time is not right and it will only have reverse effect

(11:18 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:31 PM) AEN: btw just now u talked about non-doing... the self, doing, is very subtle isnt it... for example my dharma teacher told us yesterday something that i fully agree... she say if 

u watch tv and play computer games while 'having no thoughts', then immediately she tell u stop and go meditate, images will still pop up bcos the self is very subtle and defilements still 

occur... mindfulness is not sharp enough to catch it. like i tried to maintain no thought, 'watching effortlessly' the tv but when i meditate, the images just come out uncontrollably haha

(11:32 PM) John: yes this is how consciousness work

(11:33 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:33 PM) John: that is why i told u that once we attached, it will sink deep down into our consciousness

(11:33 PM) John: and become our habitual patterns

(11:34 PM) John: this is an important aspect of consciousness

(11:34 PM) John: it is how it works

(11:34 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:34 PM) AEN: so there is nothing we can do about it right?

(11:34 PM) John: next when anatta and emptiness truth is not taught, then buddha nature sounded so much like Atman, God.

(11:35 PM) AEN: not thought?

(11:35 PM) John: it is in the context of anatta and emptiness that the Imagelessness Reality must be understood.

(11:35 PM) John: taught

(11:35 PM) AEN: oic

(11:36 PM) John: not nothing can be done lah

(11:36 PM) John: it is the mind will get attached

(11:36 PM) AEN: icic

(11:36 PM) John: and images will arise

(11:37 PM) AEN: oic

(11:37 PM) John: but when wisdom arise, this is not the case

(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:38 PM) John: a person can enter into deep mindfulness when he/she sits by just simply noticing breath

(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:39 PM) John: or hearing sound...anything....

(11:39 PM) John: once manifestation is source is understood....he/she experience presence in any moment

(11:39 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:39 PM) John: and the images just subside

(11:39 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:42 PM) John: what longchen said is very important, u must give up the entire cognition and experience in bare

(11:43 PM) John: this is similar to what i have always been emphasizing, going beyond symbols and labels

(11:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:43 PM) AEN: icic

(11:43 PM) John: but do u know that it is the same stuff eh? :P

(11:43 PM) AEN: hmm ya

(11:45 PM) John: once the symbolic layer is no more there, the timelessness experience and the no location or a where is no more there, the timelessness experience that he said...

Session Start: Monday, November 20, 2006

(Longchen wrote a new article about Universal Mind)

(11:20 PM) John: that is why i never tok about the One Reality until one undergone no-self and emptiness

(11:21 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:21 PM) John: The experience of no-self is really the true experience of non-duality. However at this juncture, a practitioner can still sink back to a source if he gives way to  

habitual propensities. Our essence is imageless and Reality is an Imagelessness Reality.

(11:22 PM) John: There is absolutely no way we can locate the Universal Mind and therefore sinking back to a source is another inference trick of the habitual propensities in action.  

Any form of views and inference that lead to grasping is mere illusion.

(11:22 PM) John: All are our dualistic cognitive capability attempting to give meanings. When we are able to rest in the thoughtless and symbol-less realm, we will soon realised that 

this cognitive capability is truly an obstruction to our this Universal Mind. That is why “Manifestation is the Source” is crucial. When effort is not diverted to ‘returning to a source’  

which is another ‘karmic doing’, the mind cease

(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:23 PM) John: the mind ceases to be anything but only this the ever arising and ceasing phenomena that manifest according to causes and conditions. Then the initial experience of 

Pure Presence must be experienced in every moment of Arising and Ceasing in all its diversities and manifolds.

(11:23 PM) John: I refuse to talk about the One Reality for fear that it is mistaken as the Eternal Witness before the experience of no-self and emptiness nature due to the similarity 

in descriptions.

What is the crucial condition that gives rise to the experience of All is the One Reality?

(11:23 PM) John: It is the intense moment-to-moment experience of Presence in all manifestation that gives rise to this understanding. That is, it is the vivid Presence in All 

Phenomena Arising without entry and exit that serve as the condition. All descriptions pale when compared to the actual experience.

(11:24 PM) John: It is the same initial experience of Presence except that now it is experienced as the phenomena itself. This is the condition for the arising of noble wisdom to know 

our true nature. This is the transparency of the ‘Self’ that gives rise to wisdom to see the Dharmakaya -- The body of truth.

(11:24 PM) John: With the stability of this experience, it gives birth to the Transcendent Body that is characterized by blissfulness, clarity, vividness and vitality as the first 

level of fruition. There is no ending to this experience. May you experience the full truth of Dharma.

(11:25 PM) AEN: oic.. is this the pm to longchen?

(11:25 PM) John: yes

(11:27 PM) AEN: io just posted a topic

(11:27 PM) AEN: icic.. let me read it

(11:33 PM) AEN: hmm anyway is there any mistakes in my new topic

(11:37 PM) John: not very good. :P  

(11:37 PM) AEN: hahaha okie

(11:38 PM) John: there is nothing wrong with Eternal Witness really but what is Eternal Witness?

(11:38 PM) John: u see Buddha don't really want to call it a 'Self'

(11:39 PM) John: because our pristine awareness is nothing like that

(11:39 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:39 PM) John: u have to tok more about the phenomena

(11:39 PM) AEN: icic

(11:40 PM) John: that is 'Self' or 'self' is understood in terms of the ever arising and ceasing

(11:40 PM) John: when as 'self' it is nothing but the 5 aggregates

(11:41 PM) John: when as 'Self' it is the ever arising and ceasing without superimposing that layer of symbols

(11:41 PM) AEN: icic...

(11:41 PM) John: nothing apart from this

(11:41 PM) John: it is always the manifestation

(11:41 PM) John: never anything apart from this stream

(11:42 PM) AEN: oic

(11:42 PM) John: there is always no independent self or Self apart from this

(11:42 PM) John: when the mental activities is gone

(11:42 PM) John: the aggregates into 18 dhatus w/o mental formations

(11:43 PM) John: the stream must be seen

(11:43 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:43 PM) John: get it?

(11:43 PM) John: we never see the stream

(11:43 PM) John: the arising and ceasing

(11:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:43 PM) John: we only see the image

(11:43 PM) John: the illusion that we create

(11:43 PM) John: therefore we never see our pristine awareness

(11:44 PM) John: as the arising and ceasing

(11:44 PM) John: we do not see DO

(11:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:44 PM) John: we see 'self' or 'Self' as an image even when we attained quite high stage

(11:44 PM) John: it is the habitual propensities that make us do so

(11:45 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:45 PM) John: get it?

(11:45 PM) AEN: ya

(11:45 PM) John: thinking without thinker

(11:45 PM) John: there is thinking

(11:45 PM) John: there is hearing

(11:45 PM) John: there is seeing

(11:45 PM) John: no thinker, hearer, seer

(11:45 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:46 PM) John: when we see the arising and ceasing with arising prajna wisdom, we see dharma

(11:46 PM) John: but if we fail to see the 'thinking, hearing and seeing'

(11:46 PM) John: we are equally deluded.

(11:46 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:47 PM) John: if we see the hearer, thinker and seer, we are also deluded

(11:47 PM) AEN: huh

(11:47 PM) AEN: wats the difference?

(11:47 PM) AEN: oh

(11:47 PM) AEN: okok

(11:47 PM) John: if we see and not understand the arising is due to conditions

(11:47 PM) John: we are also deluded

(11:48 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:48 PM) John: for arising is not without conditions

(11:48 PM) John: it cannot be separated

(11:48 PM) John: and has never been separated

(11:48 PM) AEN: when u talk about conditions.. what is it?

(11:48 PM) AEN: u mean DO?

(11:48 PM) John: DO is the workings

(11:48 PM) John: is the mechanism for explanation sake

(11:48 PM) John: sound is a form of condition

(11:49 PM) John: hearing arises

(11:49 PM) John: it is a form of consciousness

(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:49 PM) John: so is seeing color the same as hearing sound?

(11:49 PM) AEN: nope

(11:50 PM) AEN: neither same or different?

(11:50 PM) John: we cling to a never changing witness witnessing something

(11:50 PM) AEN: icic

(11:50 PM) John: and say that there must be something experiencing something

(11:50 PM) John: in contact with conditions

(11:50 PM) John: this is a dualistic mode of understanding

(11:51 PM) John: DO

(11:51 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:51 PM) John: arises dependently

(11:51 PM) John: get it?

(11:51 PM) AEN: ya

(11:53 PM) John: many holds the view of atman because it is easier to understand and grasped

(11:53 PM) AEN: so you are saying the Self is the awareness that is DO

(11:53 PM) AEN: as in dependently arisen conditions

(11:53 PM) AEN: so basically there is no dualism

(11:53 PM) John: they cannot accept the 'gone' and 'reappear' as a result of conditions and causes

(11:53 PM) AEN: icic

(11:54 PM) John: therefore unborn, no coming and going is not understood

(11:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(11:55 PM) John: the reason we tok about awareness and DO because it replaces the 'Self'

(11:55 PM) John: there is no need for a 'Self'

(11:55 PM) John: nothing like that