Note for those new to this blog: do read this article written previously by me (Soh) as it clarifies the differences quite clearly: 5) Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls)

Someone asked:

Soh, when you often make distinction that people have realized impersonalness (Soh: impersonality) but not anatta, is what you mean that they have realized a state of impersonality that is free from or empty of the idea of self, but that they have not realized anatta, because they dont see the emptiness of both the self they have "transcended" and the socalled impersonal space they are identifying with. That they do not see that egolesness is the case from thr very beginning.

Soh replied:

Impersonality can mean seeing through the small ego self. This has varying depths and can throw one into a sensation of impersonal or even universal space shared among everyone or deeper to a sense that everything is the spontaneous play or happening of intelligence, a divine happening, of being lived, and later to a sense of presence being universal pervading and being the innermost essence of everyone and everything.

This is related to dissolving the impersonal small self or ego

But there can still he a sense of a universal self or being that is watching or living life

In impersonality, Presence loses its centeredness in terms of a personal self and instead becomes universal source and everything becomes the play of divine life

I wrote in 2010 shortly after breaking through to anatta:

17th October 2010

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Update: Oh and regarding 'On the othe hand, feeling ‘universe’ has to do with the deconstruction of ‘identity’ and ‘personality’. You have to have clearer insight of what ‘deconstructions’ leads to what experience.' - it's my experience that dropping personality leads to experiencing Awareness as not an individual or personal presence but a Universal Awareness sustaining and containing all lives and forms... There is a sense of an all pervading Awareness that does not belong to any particular person or object but sustains them. At this point, Awareness is still treated as a background, but it is now seen as the Source and Ground of all beings and things... not a personal presence.

However... the non-dual aspect is different as it is no longer 'Universal Awareness' but 'Awareness is the Universe'. There is simply the universe manifesting this moment as a pure nondual consciousness experience... Consciousness/Awareness is this arising sound, sight, thought, etc. Awareness AS Universe... no longer Universal Awareness. This part requires dissolving the sense of an ultimate background identity, the Big Self of Universal Awareness...


Great insight!

However you are still not clear about where exactly the questions are leading you. Think deeper and understand what I told you in msn. I got to go now. 🙂

I also wrote to someone last year:

"When I was in my true self (I AM stage), I also mentioned that there's observation without an observer. This means there's no 'small self' observing, but there's the 'greater self' or the 'cosmic entity' that perceives. I later realized this isn't the case either. So I think Mr. N perceives 'observation without an observer' as 'no small self observing, but there's the greater self/cosmic substratum that is the substance of awareness which is perceiving.'

The real selflessness, awareness is like the wind and the blowing, knowing and the known are just different names (conventional designations without real referents), only the dynamic display that is knowing but without a knower, dynamic process rolls and knows without knower."

(See: )

Soh: (anatta is) seeing through self/Self and also realise and actualise consciousness as all luminous appearances

Mr. A: "But of course it is obvious

As it cant be any other without background or foregroudn agent

But actualization takes deepening and enquiry

Paradoxially, what helped really make anatta totally obvious

For me

Was somr advaita practice

And consciously reifying background awareness

In order to make that aspect more clear

Which helped penetrate both the concept of awareness as background and identity


But it is clear that true anatta is rare

Even some people i spoke with in atr that believe they have attained anatta insight

Looking back doesnt seem like anatta

It is too subtle and too easily missed

Too simple

Most people it seems like tend to reify anatta, emptiness, into subtle experience or substance or state"


yes, thats why i always ask people this, send them this,

What is experiential insight


Yin Ling:

When we say experiential insight in Buddhism,

It means..

A literal transformation of energetic orientation of the whole being, down to the marrow.

The sound MUST literally hears themselves.

No hearer.

Clean. Clear.

A bondage from the head here to there cut off overnight.

Then gradually the rest of the 5 senses.

Then one can talk about Anatta.

So if for you,

Does sound hear themselves?

If no, not yet. You have to keep going! Inquire and meditate.

You haven’t reach the basic insight requirement for the deeper insights like anatta and emptiness yet!

Yin Ling: “Realisation is when

This insight goes down to the marrow and you don’t need even a minute amount of effort for sound to hear themselves.

It is like how you live with dualistic perception now, very normal, no effort.

Ppl with Anatta realisation live in Anatta effortlessly, without using thinking to orient. It’s their life.

They cannot even go back to dualistic perception because that is an imputation, it js uprooted

At first you might need to purposely orient with some effort.

Then at one point there is no need.. further along, dreams will become Anatta too.

That’s experiential realisation.

There’s no realisation unless this benchmark is achieved!”



what is important is that there is experiential realisation that leads

to an energetic expansion outwards into all the forms, sounds, radiant

universe... such that it is not that you are in here, in the body,

looking outwards at the tree, listening the birds chirping from here

it is just the trees are vividly swaying in and of itself, luminously

without an observer

the trees sees themselves

the sounds hear itself

there is no location from which they are experienced, no vantage point

the energetic expansion outward into vivid manifestation, boundless, yet

it is not an expansion from a center, there is just no center

without such energetic shift it is not really the real experience of no

selfxabir Snoovatar" -

and even that can just be nondual and not yet anatta

depends on depth of insight

And if you have time to read, this is relevant:

Session Start: Wednesday, July 05, 2006

(6:39 PM) AEN:    seen the new article?
(6:39 PM) AEN:    


Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM  THAT

Self Realization – I AM

Jnani – I

Satguru – no conceptualization
(6:39 PM) AEN:    posted by longchen
(6:39 PM) AEN:    i tink u're best to comment
(6:39 PM) AEN:    hehe
(6:39 PM) John:    :)
(6:40 PM) John:    what is the different between what they said and what i told u?
(6:40 PM) AEN:    wat u said has nothing to do with 'self'
(6:41 PM) John:    they also spoke about dissolving the me and the gradual dissolving of the 'I' then dissolving of the 'AMness'. :)
(6:41 PM) AEN:    anyway how u tink we shld reply casino king in his new thread? lol
(6:42 PM) AEN:    iicc..
(6:42 PM) AEN:    u saw the article already?
(6:42 PM) John:    read the articles is quite interesting. :)
(6:42 PM) AEN:    yea i also read finish
(6:42 PM) AEN:    its said in the last stage
(6:42 PM) AEN:    that the self also dissolves
(6:44 PM) John:    now there it becomes more and more subtle when u enter slowly into the deeper stage of consciousness.  Do read it carefully...and tell me what do u think is different from what i told u.   It is a great article to refine ur understanding. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(6:52 PM) AEN:    btw casino king's experience is it in any of the 4 stages? lol
(6:53 PM) John:    u read he is like what stage. :P
(6:53 PM) AEN:    still reading again
(6:53 PM) AEN:    lol
(6:53 PM) AEN:    i tink none of that
(6:53 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) John: lah..
(6:54 PM) AEN:    1st stage then
(6:54 PM) AEN:    i tink something similar
(6:54 PM) John:    yeah...about there...near to it lah
(6:54 PM) John:    dun say ppl like no substance
(6:54 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:00 PM) AEN:    i tink they dont have emptiness teaching
(7:02 PM) John:    yes but in terms of actual experience?
(7:07 PM) AEN:    there is still an attachment to the 'purest state'?
(7:09 PM) John:    he has already attempted and tried his best to eliminate all attachment.  It is the actual experience. :)
(7:09 PM) AEN:    icic
(7:10 PM) AEN:    it is not extended to all the senses?
(7:10 PM) John:    and what else?
(7:11 PM) John:    what is the purpose of extending it to the rest of the six senses?
(7:12 PM) AEN:    to experience spontaneous self-arising?
(7:12 PM) John:    read the article, didn't it tok about spontaneous self-arising?
(7:13 PM) AEN:    maybe only the thought realm
(7:13 PM) John:    did u read the part regarding spontaneous arising?
(7:14 PM) AEN:    tink so
(7:17 PM) AEN:    ?
(7:21 PM) John:    u can ask casino_king can he know what God is?
(7:35 PM) AEN:    back
(7:35 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:36 PM) AEN:    hmm u seriously do not tink wat?
(7:36 PM) AEN:    that the woman is krishnamurti's heir?
(7:36 PM) John:    yes. :)
(7:36 PM) AEN:    oic how come
(7:38 PM) John:    that is just my personal opinion.  I think she follows K's teaching, but not as what you mentioned spiritual heir.  I read some of the written articles, I do not think so. :)
(7:43 PM) AEN:    oic.. okie
(7:46 PM) John:    big 3?
(7:46 PM) John:    :P
(7:47 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Can you know what God is?

According to whom? The big 3 think of God as Spirit.

So, according to Buddhist teaching, what is REAL?
(7:47 PM) AEN:    big 3?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    christianity, islam, hindu?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    no ideas.
(7:48 PM) John:    hahaah....why christianity, islam and hindu are the big 3. :P  Buddhism must be the small 4.
(7:48 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:52 PM) AEN:
(7:52 PM) AEN:    To tell you the truth , there was a duration of time where i can really see them in flashing images . Which means i can see them in flashing images like those flashes from cameras but not very clear though . So perhaps during that time i was too stressed and exchausted and always beside them so maybe sort of absorb their chi without knowing .
But during that time i really can see them a few times once when i was in a pub with my friend when i suddenly have this feeling of them being come to check on me n i can see them walking in through the door only to disappear after walking past me to the counter . The second time was i was in the middle of the session where i have a feeling the hei wu chang coming and even able to see him walking towards my direction . And not long afterwards the bai wu chang left the medium body and hei wu chang possed the medium body to tok .
So whats the conclusion ? Do i need to seek treatment although no i longer see them with my eye ?
(7:54 PM) John:    Don't have to answer him. :)
(7:54 PM) AEN:    haha ok
(7:54 PM) AEN:    y
(7:54 PM) John:    don't tell u. :P
(7:54 PM) AEN:    huh
(7:54 PM) AEN:    lol
(7:56 PM) John:    If I were to ask you to sort out the link that is posted by longchen what that is being stated is true experience and what are mere concepts, r u able to do it?
(7:57 PM) AEN:    i dunno leh cos i no true experience
(7:57 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:58 PM) John:    u should tell casino_king, u came in to join in and like him to ask question. :P
(7:58 PM) AEN:    huh?
(7:58 PM) John:    means like him only ask question lor.
(7:58 PM) John:    and asking the question is to guide him. :P
(7:58 PM) John:    lol
(7:59 PM) AEN:    so i change to 'i came to ask you to ask something'? :S
(8:00 PM) John:    nope...what i meant is, just like hiim, ur purpose is not to tell the answer, but to ask question so as to lead him to find out for himself. :P  This is what he said right?...hehee
(8:00 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:00 PM) AEN:    hehe
(8:04 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    I did not join in the discussion to answer your question.

    I came to ask something.

According to the big 3, God is spirit and in their scriptures, you have many desciptions of encounters with God.

The totality of these encounters do not make up God but it does show that God interacts with people. While nobody knows what God is (what is Spirit?) people do have a glimpse of God.

So what is REAL as taught by Buddhism?

Maybe this question is too difficult for the Buddhists here to answer as the "What is Empty?" question had shown.

I do hope that as Buddhists you will discover the answer.
(8:06 PM) John:    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, i am unable to discuss with you, unless u do 3 things....I go makan first....
(8:07 PM) John:    first thing
(8:07 PM) AEN:    u post or i post
(8:07 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:08 PM) John:    r u able to forgot whatever is being discussed and go back to what that is born spiritually.
(8:08 PM) John:    not even a trace in ur mind. :P
(8:09 PM) AEN:    so i ask him "Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?"
(8:09 PM) AEN:    ok then?
(8:09 PM) AEN:    btw u post or i post
(8:09 PM) AEN:    u post la
(8:18 PM) John:    back
(8:18 PM) John:    :)
(8:18 PM) John:    lol
(8:18 PM) John:    buddhism like nobody. :P
(8:19 PM) John:    because of his condition, he will not be able to understand the profound teachiing of emptiness.
(8:19 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:19 PM) John:    i have already taught u when emptiness should step in
(8:20 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence
(8:20 PM) John:    but u did not refine ur understanding.
(8:20 PM) John:    first all discussion must be forgotten
(8:20 PM) John:    it can start from anywhere if he is in the correct path
(8:21 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:21 PM) John:    tell him to seriously look into the link that longchen posted, that is the second thing he must do.
(8:22 PM) John:    3 and most important of all, he must be sincere and stop useless pretense
(8:22 PM) AEN:    pretense?
(8:22 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:22 PM) John:    :P
(8:22 PM) AEN:    ya tats wat longchen said also
(8:22 PM) AEN:    wat he pretending
(8:22 PM) John:    how can anyone tell him anything...
(8:22 PM) John:    isn't it a waste of time eh?
(8:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:24 PM) John:    a person that truly knows is completely clear.  He knows the stages and is thorough.
(8:24 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:24 PM) John:    The depth of the clarity itself, how can one bullshit about ones clarity
(8:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:25 PM) John:    what that can be intuitively grasped when spoken worth not even a cent. :)
(8:25 PM) John:    it becomes knowledge and yet this form of knowledge is still precious for one that is truly sincere.
(8:26 PM) John:    but when one isn't sincere, he knows nothing
(8:26 PM) John:    till now, do u sense the condition that he will know?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:26 PM) John:    it isn't right yet. :)
(8:26 PM) AEN:    sense the condition that he will start to understand?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    i tink dont tink so
(8:27 PM) John:    yes he is egoistic but he is putting all his effort to know something profound, he knows it.
(8:27 PM) John:    so some time i spoke a lil but only when the condition is right. :)
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:28 PM) John:    he attempted to understand
(8:28 PM) John:    emptiness but have no idea of the application
(8:28 PM) John:    do not know where to step in
(8:28 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:28 PM) John:    u must be able to see that
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:29 PM) John:    why because he is only at the first level...close to it.
(8:30 PM) John:    unlike others, i never said he doesn't know anything....rather i told u he has some experiences.  :)
(8:30 PM) AEN:    oic...
(8:31 PM) John:    but at present i know he can't understand emptiness, only theoretically
(8:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:31 PM) John:    at least longchen is stepping into anatta
(8:32 PM) John:    and then he has to extend it the rest of the six senses that i always said though i did not explicitly emphasize. :)
(8:32 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:32 PM) John:    before the profound meaning of emptiness can be appreciated.
(8:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:32 PM) John:    i told u that is the second level right?going int
(8:32 PM) AEN:    ya
(8:33 PM) John:    before true spontaneous arising, the unconditioned can be known.
(8:33 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:33 PM) John:    isn't all at this first level and attempting to go beyond?
(8:34 PM) John:    most of those that are posted and links...they are so.
(8:34 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:34 PM) John:    u must feel it urself. :)
(8:34 PM) AEN:    u mean longchen's link?
(8:34 PM) John:    most links that are not really buddhist
(8:34 PM) AEN:    orh icic
(8:34 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:34 PM) AEN:    btw advaita got reach the longchen's link's 4th level?
(8:34 PM) AEN:    level
(8:35 PM) John:    what are the levels that are real and what are the levels that are extrapolated is important. :)
(8:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:36 PM) AEN:    so its merely an extension
(8:36 PM) John:    when u hear ur master or chen ming an master teach, din he tok about the 3 level of presence?
(8:36 PM) AEN:    but hmm but isnt the 4th stage talking about no-self without falling back to 'I AM'? isnt it quite different from Advaita?
(8:36 PM) John:    i will tell u later the mistake. :P
(8:37 PM) AEN:    eh? teacher chen arh... not sure leh... maybe in indirect way
(8:37 PM) John:    but don't take my words, just take it as a form of knowledge.
(8:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:38 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence i told u is to allow you to understand exactly where it should step in.
(8:38 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:39 PM) John:    what are the ppl so confused about the "I AMness" and exactly where it steps in and leading to what....this is for the convenience of explanation so that those non-buddhists can appreciate the Blessed One's teaching. :)
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:40 PM) John:    and when I tell u, i want u to experience it.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:40 PM) John:    so that u know when to apply what medicine. :P
(8:40 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:41 PM) John:    when i tell u the riddle of the zen master conversation, it is not meant to be told, but what i want is to let u know ur friends stage when he is not there.  So that u will not be confused.
(8:42 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:42 PM) John:    but the important aspect has not gone into ur mind yet. :P
(8:42 PM) AEN:    ?
(8:42 PM) John:    otherwise u would be able to answer me when i asked u what the link's lack.
(8:42 PM) John:    and where is the problem
(8:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:43 PM) AEN:    so wats their problem
(8:43 PM) John:    when your friend writes poem and the poems of those that truly experience, what is the diff?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    eh brb
(8:44 PM) AEN:    back
(8:44 PM) AEN:    which friend?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    u mean from my dharma centre?
(8:44 PM) John:    the email u posted me
(8:44 PM) AEN:    'fei you fei kong' - 2 articles
(8:44 PM) AEN:    rite
(8:45 PM) John:    yeah
(8:45 PM) AEN:    u said he wasnt speaking in terms of ultimate reality
(8:45 PM) AEN:    or theoretical
(8:45 PM) John:    yes
(8:45 PM) John:    what are the poems of those of that truly experience like?
(8:46 PM) AEN:    erm.. u said... he will talk about things like... keyboard sounding
(8:46 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:46 PM) AEN:    hmm but i tink my friend has some kind of awakening experience?
(8:47 PM) AEN:    i never ask him la but i tink so
(8:47 PM) John: casino_king but more humble. :P
(8:47 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:47 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:48 PM) John:    read Soen-sa experience (Soh: see
(8:48 PM) AEN:    so u mean my fren experience the same 'life force' thing?
(8:48 PM) John:    yet his is not stable yet
(8:48 PM) AEN:    soen-sa? seung sahn?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:48 PM) AEN:    what is not stable?
(8:48 PM) John:    that level is already beyond 1 going into 2  (note by Soh: not referring to 7 thusness stages. In his earlier definition, 1 is I AMness, 2 is anatta and emptiness, 3 is unconditional spontaneous presence)
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:49 PM) AEN:    which one
(8:49 PM) John:    the luminosity is clear and correct
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:49 PM) John:    yet his master told him to be silent for 3 years
(8:49 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:49 PM) John:    the mind that is pre-occupied cannot perceive his master's intention
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:50 PM) John:    u know what is the problem of the link now?
(8:50 PM) AEN:    wat is it
(8:51 PM) John:    what is lacking...
(8:51 PM) John:    think...u should know
(8:53 PM) John:    what is the diff between what is posted and those zen masters' poems
(8:53 PM) AEN:    true experience, theoretical?
(8:53 PM) John:    yes but what is the true experience like?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    experiencing the presence in everything without self
(8:54 PM) John:    yes! fusing into everything....
(8:55 PM) John:    the tennis court....the drum beats of the foot step
(8:55 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:55 PM) John:    that clarity breaks the first level into the 2nd
(8:55 PM) AEN:    icic how come
(8:55 PM) John:    the luminosity of the mirror bright
(8:55 PM) AEN:    u mean by experiencing that one will immediately realise Emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    wait...what is the differences between that and emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    sorry i mean "AMness"
(8:57 PM) John:    the clarity of zen masters enlightenment and "AMness"
(8:57 PM) AEN:    amness is still attached to a state of purity? not completely fuse into everything?
(8:58 PM) John:    yes...has the zen master not demonstrated in their lives about the luminous clarity in all things that came into contact?
(8:59 PM) John:    is there a self?
(8:59 PM) John:    there is only the everything
(8:59 PM) John:    where is the 'Self'?
(8:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:59 PM) AEN:    but hmm
(9:00 PM) AEN:    i tot u also said b4, when one experiences the 'i am' when 6 senses are widely open, one will experience it as 'i am all'. isnt that also sort of fusing into everything?
(9:00 PM) John:    yes....and zen masters might have the danger of that too....
(9:01 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:01 PM) John:    so luminosity is not nature
(9:01 PM) John:    what is it?
(9:01 PM) AEN:    emptiness?
(9:01 PM) John:    yes
(9:01 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:01 PM) John:    it is this, now that, always changing and ungraspable
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:02 PM) John:    the ungraspable is anatta manifestation.
(9:02 PM) John:    it is seen in all
(9:02 PM) John:    in everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:02 PM) John:    if u return and want to rest in the 'Self', instead of gaining, u lost everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:03 PM) John:    the nature is anatta, there is no self
(9:03 PM) John:    understand?
(9:03 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:04 PM) John:    now when one understand this, he lays the foundation of stabilizing this in "everything" experience
(9:04 PM) John:    because he is not returning to the "AMness"
(9:04 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:04 PM) John:    he is not confused anymore
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:05 PM) John:    he finds it in all things without returning...though ungraspable, it is always seized at the moment.
(9:05 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:05 PM) John:    and how it arise? this is, that is
(9:05 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:05 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:06 PM) John:    so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John:    sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John:    scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:06 PM) John:    everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:07 PM) John:    so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:07 PM) John:    how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John:    it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John:    because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:08 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:08 PM) AEN:    that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John:    that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:09 PM) John:    this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:10 PM) John:    but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:11 PM) John:    then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John:    then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:11 PM) John:    then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John:    because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John:    arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John:    therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:13 PM) John:    in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John:    he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:14 PM) John:    all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
(9:14 PM) AEN:    but hmm... i read dzogchen texts also speaks of the 'Source'
(9:15 PM) AEN:    but in that context it isnt meant to be 'controller' rite?
(9:15 PM) John:    i do not like to use the word source...ehehhe
(9:15 PM) John:    just like 'Self'...
(9:15 PM) John:    :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    oic but dzogchen talks about it quite often
(9:15 PM) AEN:    lol
(9:15 PM) John:    depends on who tok also. :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    haha why
(9:15 PM) AEN:    there is this famous dzogchen book 'The Supreme Source'
(9:16 PM) AEN:    i read a bit last time in bookstore
(9:16 PM) John:    ic....good?
(9:16 PM) AEN:    quite gd la but a bit deep hahah
(9:16 PM) AEN:
(9:17 PM) John:    just practice is enough :)
(9:17 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:21 PM) John:    have u heard of upasika kee?
(9:21 PM) AEN:    nope
(9:21 PM) AEN:    what about her
(9:21 PM) John:    she is a lay but masters of many monks and nuns.  Very dedicated practitioner
(9:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:22 PM) John:    there is a book pure and simple, compiled by her disciple.
(9:22 PM) John:    quite good.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:22 PM) John:    u might want to take a look.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:23 PM) John:    true practitioner experience is so hard to find nowadays.
(9:23 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:24 PM) John:    what prevents the mirror bright consciousness?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    delusions..?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    ignorance, defilements, etc
(9:24 PM) John:    hehehe...i prefer individuality, personality, self
(9:25 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:25 PM) AEN:    haha
(9:25 PM) AEN:    personality is bad?
(9:25 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by personality
(9:26 PM) John:    personality is the product of culture, education and traditions...etc
(9:26 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:26 PM) John:    it is not 'bad'
(9:26 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:27 PM) John:    to be enlightened, one has to do away even the conventional 'good'
(9:27 PM) John:    otherwise we cannot understand the reality of consciousness.
(9:27 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:27 PM) AEN:    how to do away
(9:28 PM) John:    do u know what is the biggest problem of consciousness so far?
(9:29 PM) John:    it just identify when it cannot feel its presence
(9:29 PM) AEN:    identification, self
(9:29 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:29 PM) John:    yes
(9:29 PM) John:    identification has tremendous power...u will not understand what i meant now.
(9:29 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:30 PM) John:    like a spell that prevents us from seeing
(9:30 PM) John:    take casino_king for example, why can't he see?
(9:30 PM) John:    something really strong is bonding right?
(9:31 PM) AEN:    yea
(9:31 PM) AEN:    btw he just replied
(9:31 PM) AEN:    hehehe
(9:31 PM) John:    lol
(9:31 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:

    1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?

    2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress

    3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.

If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience?
(9:31 PM) John:    :)
(9:32 PM) John:    an experience that he can't understand. :P
(9:32 PM) AEN:    hahahah
(9:35 PM) John:    ahhaa...
(9:38 PM) AEN:    so how ? hahaha
(9:39 PM) John:    until the seed arises otherwise, even buddha can't help. :)
(9:39 PM) John:    if the mind can be seen, defined, anatta will have no meaning.
(9:40 PM) AEN:    icic

(9:43 PM) John:    i will be traceless in time to come.
(9:43 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    though i think buddhism presents the most profound teaching.
(9:44 PM) John:    i prefer taoist style. :)
(9:44 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    too much have already been said, taught, written.
(9:45 PM) AEN:    my shi fu say lao tzu is a pratyekabuddha.. haha
(9:45 PM) AEN:    tats y he din teach :P
(9:45 PM) John:    yes. :)
(9:45 PM) AEN:    so u wan to be pratyekabuddha arh
(9:45 PM) John:    don't think i am so sut. :P
(9:46 PM) John:    without Buddha's teaching, I will be stuck in "AMness and Everything"
(9:46 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:46 PM) AEN:    sut = ?
(9:47 PM) John:    outstanding. :)
(9:47 PM) AEN:    orh kk
(9:48 PM) John:    i sincerely hope longchen can going beyond his experience and get true authentication.
(9:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:50 PM) John:    hahaha
(9:50 PM) John:    casino_king...blur liao
(9:50 PM) John:    already said ask only wat
(9:51 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(9:53 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers. :)
(9:54 PM) John:    If people sense his sincerity, there will definitely be contributors.  Even there is no consensus, there will be true gain.
(9:54 PM) AEN:    icic..

(10:11 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:


    I think you blur liao. See my previous post.

Like I said, you are trying to avoid the difficult questions.

Does Buddhism say anything about what is REAL?
(10:12 PM) John:    what is real is becoming. (Soh: also see Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions -
(10:13 PM) John:    sinweiy replied....added additional condition
(10:14 PM) John:    he must struggle till sincerity arise
(10:14 PM) AEN:    added additional condition?
(10:14 PM) John:    casino_king's mind must be led to silence
(10:15 PM) John:    knowledge will only confuse him further.
(10:15 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:15 PM) John:    otherwise why u wouldn't have told him to empty all that he has learnt
(10:16 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:17 PM) John:    the understanding of the "spirit", the living force within must come to the challenge
(10:18 PM) John:    to fully understand what that is being experienced, let him say out this experience first...
(10:18 PM) John:    this life force that is working within him.
(10:18 PM) John:    it is so real.
(10:18 PM) John:    full of life.
(10:19 PM) John:    it is his entire beingness
(10:19 PM) John:    he must bring it out...
(10:19 PM) AEN:    icic...
(10:19 PM) John:    and be sincere and humble.
(10:19 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:20 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers.
(10:20 PM) John:    I hope he can reach this point.
(10:21 PM) John:    and let longchen lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:22 PM) AEN:    then u leh? :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    as in lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:23 PM) AEN:    haha
(10:23 PM) John:    u lead him. :)
(10:23 PM) AEN:    oh i lead him with ur words :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:23 PM) John:    with those that i have told u, it is sufficent. :)
(10:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:25 PM) John:    seeds can be planted but there is no fruition, it can take many years
(10:26 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:29 PM) John:    what is the difference between "no individuality and impersonality" and the way Buddhaghosa describe no-self?
(10:30 PM) AEN:    no individuality refers to the mind realm ceasing of self-perception but does not speak of the presence of fusing into everything
(10:30 PM) AEN:    ?
(10:31 PM) John:    not bad. :)  I will add a lil more.
(10:31 PM) AEN:    ok
(10:32 PM) John:    the idea of process, change isn't inside
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is understood as a flow, that in actuality there is no 'entity', only flow
(10:33 PM) John:    means there is no nouns but always verbs (Soh: see The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind, and also Choosing
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is linked to it
(10:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:35 PM) John:    the misconception and individuality is of taking a process and 'identifying' it as an 'entity' through confusion of language and symbolic structures
(10:35 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:36 PM) John:    when one tries to losing individuality and say that consciousness is impersonal, there is just a snap shot of the is not a form of thorough understanding or a deep insight of the truth.
(10:37 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:38 PM) John:    so true non-dual must come from such insight as described in Buddhaghosa poem. :) (see: )
(10:38 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:39 PM) John:    i spoke many times about non-dual and said even one has entered non-dual does not necessary understand anatta and emptiness, this is what i meant.

(10:39 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:40 PM) John:    otherwise it remains as a stage that can be entered and exit.
(10:40 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:40 PM) John:    instead of a gateless gate (See: Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State - )
(10:40 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:41 PM) John:    u see the diff?
(10:41 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:42 PM) John:    so u understand why pure consciousness is not really a correct description eh?
(10:42 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:42 PM) John:    like the blessed one described, it is named after its condition and organs (Soh: See )
(10:42 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:43 PM) John:    until the entire trace of self subsides, one begin to experience emptiness
(10:43 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:43 PM) John:    if the self does not subside, we will not understand why there isn't entry and exit.
(10:44 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:44 PM) John:    consciousness is wherever conditions and causes are. (Also see: Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions )
(10:45 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:45 PM) John:    how could a 'Self' understand and experience such profound experience. :)
(10:45 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:45 PM) John:    though it is mentioned by ur master chen ming an, the true experience is not that easy to understand...there are different depth and no ending to it. :)
(10:46 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:46 PM) John:    it all links to the degree of clarity
(10:46 PM) John:    the miraculous manifestation is not easily understood.
(10:46 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:47 PM) John:    and the depth of experience is beyond explanation and has no bottom.
(10:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:49 PM) John:    what i told u is just the beginning, when one thought that he has fully experienced emptiness, immediately he is misled by his own experience.
(10:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:50 PM) AEN:    how come
(10:50 PM) John:    it is difficult to tell u in words. :)
(10:50 PM) John:    my experience is but a figment.
(10:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:51 PM) John:    :)
(10:51 PM) AEN:    shall i post the 3 dharma seals to casino king?
(10:52 PM) John:    no...wait for the seed to arise...he will not be able to appreciate.  He will think that it is sort of low standard and too simple. :)
(10:52 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:52 PM) AEN:    ok



Seung Sahn Soen-sa was born in 1927 in Seun Choen, North Korea. His parents were Protestant Christians. Korea at this time was under severe Japanese military rule, and all political and cultural freedom was brutally suppressed. In 1944, Soen-sa joined the underground Korean independence movement. Within a few months he was caught by the Japanese police and narrowly escaped a death sentence. After his release from prison, he and two friends stole several thousand dollars from their parents and crossed the heavily-patrolled Manchurian border in an unsuccessful attempt to join the Free Korean Army. 

In the years following World War II, while he was studying Western philosophy at Dong Guk University, the political situation in South Korea grew more and more chaotic. One day Soen-sa decided that he wouldn't be able to help people through his political activities or his academic studies. So he shaved his head and went into the mountains, vowing never to return until he had attained the absolute truth. 

For three months he studied the Confucian scriptures, but he was unsatisfied by them. Then a friend of his, who was a monk in a small mountain temple, gave him the Diamond Sutra, and he first encountered Buddhism. "All things that appear in this world are transient. If you view all things that appear as never having appeared, then you will realize your true self." When he read these words, his mind became clear. For the next few weeks he read many sutras. Finally, he decided to become a Buddhist monk and was ordained in October, 1948. 

Soen-sa had already understood the sutras. He realized that the only important thing now was practice. So ten days after his ordination, he went further up into the mountains and began a one-hundred-day retreat on Won Gak Mountain (the Mountain of Perfect Enlightenment). He ate only pine needles, dried and beaten into a powder. For twenty hours every day he chanted the Great Dharani of Original Mind Energy. Several times a day he took ice-cold baths. It was a very rigorous practice. 

Soon he was assailed by doubts. Why was this retreat necessary? Why did he have to go to extremes? Couldn't he go down to a small temple in a quiet valley, get married like a Japanese monk, and attain enlightenment gradually, in the midst of a happy family? One night these thoughts became so powerful that he decided to leave and packed his belongings. But the next morning his mind was clearer, and he unpacked. A few days later the same thing happened. And in the following weeks, he packed and unpacked nine times. 

By now fifty days had passed, and Soen-sa's body was very exhausted. Every night he had terrifying visions. Demons would appear out of the dark and make obscene gestures at him. Ghouls would sneak up behind him and wrap their cold fingers around his neck. Enormous beetles would gnaw his legs. Tigers and dragons would stand in front of him, bellowing. He was in constant terror. 

After a month of this, the visions turned into visions of delight. Sometimes Buddha would come and teach him a sutra. Sometimes Bodhisattvas would appear in gorgeous clothing and tell him that he would go to heaven. Sometimes he would keel over from exhaustion and Kwan Se Um Bosal would gently wake him up. By the end of eighty days, his body was strong. His flesh had turned green from the pine needles. 

One day, a week before the retreat was to finish, Soen-sa was walking outside, chanting and keeping rhythm with his moktak. Suddenly, two boys, eleven or twelve years old, appeared on either side of him and bowed. They were wearing many-colored robes, and their faces were of an unearthly beauty. Soen-sa was very surprised. His mind felt powerful and perfectly clear, so how could these demons have materialized? He walked ahead on the narrow mountain path, and the two boys followed him, walking right through the boulders on either side of the path. They walked together in silence for a half-hour, then, back at the altar, when Soen-sa got up from his bow, they were gone. This happened every day for a week. 

Finally it was the hundredth day. Soen-sa was outside chanting and hitting the moktak. All at once his body disappeared, and he was in infinite space. From far away he could hear the moktak beating, and the sound of his own voice. He remained in this state for some time. When he returned to his body, he understood. The rocks, the river, everything he could see, everything he could hear, all this was his true self. All things are exactly as they are. The truth is just like this. 

Soen-sa slept very well that night. When he woke up the next morning, he saw a man walking up the mountain, then some crows flying out of a tree. He wrote the following poem: 

The road at the bottom of Won Gak Mountain
is not the present road.
The man climbing with his backpack
is not a man of the past.
'fok, tok, tok - his footsteps
transfix past and present.
Crows out of a tree.
Caw, caw, caw. 

Soon after he came down from the mountain, he met Zen Master Ko Bong, whose teacher had been Zen Master Mang Gong. Ko Bong was reputed to be the most brilliant Zen Master in Korea, and one of the most severe. At this time he was teaching only laymen; monks, he said, were not ardent enough to be good Zen students. Soen-sa wanted to test his enlightenment with Ko Bong, so he went to him with a moktak and said, "What is this?" Ko Bong took the moktak and hit it. This was just what Soen-sa had expected him to do. 

Soen-sa then said, "How should I practice Zen?" 

Ko Bong said, "A monk once asked Zen Master Jo-ju, 'Why did Bodhidharma come to China?' Jo-ju answered, 'The pine tree in the front garden.' What does this mean?" 

Soen-sa understood, but he didn't know how to answer. He said, "I don't know." 

Ko Bong said, "Only keep this don't-know mind. That is true Zen practice." 

That spring and summer, Soen-sa did mostly working Zen. In the fall, he sat for a hundred-day meditation session at Su Dok Sa monastery, where he learned Zen language and Dharma-combat. By the winter, he began to feel that the monks weren't practicing hard enough, so he decided to give them some help. One night, as he was on guard-duty (there had been some burglaries), he took all the pots and pans out of the kitchen and arranged them in a circle in the front yard. The next night, he turned the Buddha on the main altar toward the wall and took the incense-burner, which was a national treasure, and hung it on a persimmon tree in the garden. By the second morning the whole monastery was in an uproar. Rumors were flying around about lunatic burglars, or gods coming from the mountain to warn the monks to practice harder. 

The third night, Soen-sa went to the nuns' quarters, took seventy pairs of nuns' shoes and put them in front of Zen Master Dok Sahn's room, displayed as in a shoe store. But this time, a nun woke up to go to the outhouse and, missing her shoes, she woke up everyone in the nuns' quarters. Soen-sa was caught. The next day he was brought to trial. Since most of the monks voted to give him another chance (the nuns were unanimously against him), he wasn't expelled from the monastery. But he had to offer formal apologies to all the high monks. 

First he went to Dok Sahn and bowed. Dok Sahn said, "Keep up the good work." 

Then he went to the head nun. She said, "You've made a great deal too much commotion in this monastery, young man." Soen-sa laughed and said, "The whole world is already full of commotion. What can you do?" She couldn't answer. 

Next was Zen Master Chun Song, who was famous for his wild actions and obscene language. Soen-sa bowed to him and said, "I killed all the Buddhas of past, present, and future. What can you do?" 

Chun Song said, "Aha!" and looked deeply into Soen-sa's eyes. Then he said, "What did you see?" 

Soen-sa said, "You already understand." 

Chun Song said, "Is that all?" 

Soen-sa said, "There's a cuckoo singing in the tree out- side the window." 

Chun Song laughed and said, "Aha!" He asked several more questions, which Soen-sa answered without difficulty. Finally, Chun Song leaped up and danced around Soen-sa, shouting, "You are enlightened! You are enlightened!" The news spread quickly, and people began to understand the events of the preceding days. 

On January 15, the session was over, and Soen-sa left to see Ko Bong. On the way to Seoul, he had interviews with Zen Master Keum Bong and Zen Master Keum Oh. Both gave him inga, the seal of validation of a Zen student's great awakening. 

Soen-sa arrived at Ko Bong's temple dressed in his old patched retreat clothes and carrying a knapsack. He bowed to Ko Bong and said, "All the Buddhas turned out to be a bunch of corpses. How about a funeral service?" 

Ko Bong said, "Prove it!" 

Soen-sa reached into his knapsack and took out a dried cuttlefish and a bottle of wine. "Here are the leftovers from the funeral party." 

Ko Bong said, "Then pour me some wine." 

Soen-sa said, "Okay. Give me your glass." 

Ko Bong held out his palm.

Soen-sa slapped it with the bottle and said, "That's not a glass, it's your hand!" Then he put the bottle on the floor. 

Ko Bong laughed and said, "Not bad. You're almost done. But I have a few questions for you." He proceeded to ask Soen-sa the most difficult of the seventeen-hundred traditional Zen kong-ans. Soen-sa answered without hindrance. 

Then Ko Bong said, "All right, one last question. The mouse eats cat-food, but the cat-bowl is broken. What does this mean?" 

Soen-sa said, "The sky is blue, the grass is green." 

Ko Bong shook his head and said, "No." 

Soen-sa was taken aback. He had never missed a Zen question before. His face began to grow red as he gave one "like this" answer after another. Ko Bong kept shaking his head. Finally Soen-sa exploded with anger and frustration. "Three Zen Masters have given me inga! Why do you say I'm wrong?!" 

Ko Bong said, "What does it mean? Tell me." 

For the next fifty minutes, Ko Bong and Soen-sa sat facing each other, hunched like two tomcats. The silence was electric. Then, all of a sudden, Soen-sa had the answer. It was "just like this." 

When Ko Bong heard it, his eyes grew moist and his face filled with joy. He embraced Soen-sa and said, "You are the flower; I am the bee." 

On January 25, 1949, Soen-sa received from Ko Bong the Transmission of Dharma, thus becoming the Seventy-Eighth Patriarch in this line of succession. It was the only Transmission that Ko Bong ever gave. 

After the ceremony, Ko Bong said to Soen-sa, "For the next three years you must keep silent. You are a free man. We will meet again in five hundred years." 

Soen-sa was now a Zen Master. He was twenty-two years old. 

From Dropping Ashes On The Buddha: The Teaching of Zen Master Seung Sahn
edited by Stephen Mitchell (Grove Press, New York, NY, 1976) 

Zen Master Seung Sahn, founder of the international Kwan Um School of Zen, died on November 30, 2004, at Hwa Gye Sah temple in Seoul, Korea. He died peacefully, surrounded by his students. He was 77.


p.s. on Zen Master Seung Sahn:

I wrote to Mr. J a week ago:

Positing consciousness to be an unchanging substance modulating into many forms is the view of one mind, it is a view of inherent existence, it is an essentialist and substantialist view. Anatta realization puts an end to such delusions.

Unfortuantely many practitioners, even well known Zen masters, hold this erroneous view, for example Zen Master SS said, "Electricity is none of these things, and yet it is all of them. Similarly, rain, snow, fog, vapor, river, sea, sleet, and ice are all different forms of the same substance. They are different thing. But H2 0 is unchanging, and composes all of them according to their situation. They are all water. The same is true of Dharma-nature. It is not one and not two. That is a very important point."

[24/6/18, 3:03:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: My mom ask me something about a Seung Sahn poem so I went to search
[24/6/18, 3:03:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung Sahn is having view of one mind but experience of no mind? (See: 5) Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta)
[24/6/18, 3:03:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like one inherent substance manifesting as many
[24/6/18, 3:03:47 PM] John Tan: Many
‎[24/6/18, 3:04:37 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
‎[24/6/18, 3:04:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
[24/6/18, 3:04:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So actually Seung Sahn is not yet anatta (Comments by Soh: we actually thought Master Seung Sahn realised anatta previously, see . Having said that, even now I still resonate very much with a lot of what Zen Master Seung Sahn teaches and would certainly recommend people to read his writings if you're interested.)
[24/6/18, 3:04:47 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic
[24/6/18, 3:05:37 PM] John Tan: To me yes
[24/6/18, 3:06:11 PM] John Tan: Mistaken experience due to lack of view. That is Zen’s problem imo
[24/6/18, 3:07:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic
[24/6/18, 3:08:04 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah some analogy by Seung Sahn is still substantialist
[24/6/18, 3:08:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think he is describing no mind but not so much anatta
[24/6/18, 3:08:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Unlike dogen is clearly anatta or the Hong wen Liang
[24/6/18, 3:08:32 PM] John Tan: No mind is an experience
[24/6/18, 3:09:27 PM] John Tan: Insight of anatta must arise then refine one’s view
[24/6/18, 3:11:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. I think Seung Sahn has non dual realisation but maybe not anatta
[24/6/18, 3:11:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe that’s why he still talks about mirror analogy
[24/6/18, 3:11:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[24/6/18, 3:11:50 PM] John Tan: Lol
[24/6/18, 3:28:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So for modern Chinese so far I never see anyone clearly anatta besides Hong wen Liang who has Soto Zen lineage (update by Soh: another Chinese master I like is Ven Hui Lu - , . Also the ancient, first Ch'an/Zen Master in China, Bodhidharma, was explicitly clear about anatman as a key realization of Zen - see The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论) but many subsequent Zen masters after him had fallen into substantialist/essentialist view similar to Advaita Vedanta, however, many Zen Masters throughout the ages have also gone beyond that and realised the truth of anatman, as seen in Some Zen Masters’ Quotations on Anatman)
[24/6/18, 3:28:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Teachers I mean
[24/6/18, 3:28:53 PM] John Tan: I would say so.
[24/6/18, 3:29:38 PM] John Tan: Through anatta then emptiness is easily accepted and the beauty of 2 truth will b appreciated.
[24/6/18, 3:30:03 PM] John Tan: But no need to go through the unnecessary
[24/6/18, 3:30:35 PM] John Tan: However “emptiness” as I said to Andre is a more subtle insight.
[24/6/18, 3:31:40 PM] John Tan: 2 truth essentially is just 1. It can never b separated. Appears and empty.
[24/6/18, 3:33:15 PM] John Tan: There is a very interesting paradox, go read at my profile.
[24/6/18, 3:34:35 PM] John Tan: There emptiness and appearance must b understood as inseparable union.

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