Different phases of understanding dependent origination:

[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Means the whole appearance is an unfolding of dependent origination, has no referent besides the magical unfolding that is nowhere to be found but vividly spontaneously displayed
[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...
[12:15 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: The Aircon is closer than my skin
[12:16 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So how is this different?
[12:17 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: A vivid sponstaneous display before division...
[12:18 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Like color, sensation, sound, odor
[12:21 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Hearer hearing sound


Ear, sound and sound consciousness


Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...

Any differences?
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in hearer hearing sound, hearer is one thing, hearing is one thing, sound is one thing.. but in total exertion, the ear, sound, sound consciousness, and all the conditions are factors are the hearing
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: *and factors

[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in anatta in hearing there is just sound, the ear, sound, sound consciousness are just delineations of the field of happening.. one can also see and have insight into dependent origination at the anatta level but not exactly like total exertion yet.. right after anatta i wrote my experience is more like spontaneous happening dependent on conditions but without agency or subject-object
[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: field of happening but without agent*
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so right after anatta, its like there is no hearer, only ear, sound and sound consciousness... the sound consciousness manifests spontaneously when ear meets sound. but there can still be true existence of ear, sound, sound consciousness as truly arising momentary dharmas
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: even if there is no subject-object
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So in hearing, there is only sound, no hearer. This deconstructs hearer.

Ear, sound, sound consciousness is post anatta.

But now ear and sound is not deconstructed.
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: yeah
[6:31 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: In total exertion, it is not only ear hears, the eyes, ears...whole body hears...ear is no ear, and eyes is no eyes, body is no body and mind is no mind...all r deconstructed into that sound...


“Wondrous! Marvelous!
The teachings of the insentient are inconceivable.
If you listen with the ears, you won't understand.
When you hear with the eyes, then you will know.” - Zen Master Dongshan

“When I talk about listening, I don’t mean just listening with the ear. Listening here includes the totality of perception—all senses open and alive, and still much more than that. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are receptive, open, not controlled. A Zen saying describes it as “hearing with one’s eyes and seeing with one’s ears.” It refers to this wholeness of perception. The wholeness of being!
Another Zen saying demands: “Hear the bell before it rings!” Ah, it doesn’t make any sense rationally, does it? But there is a moment when that bell is ringing before you know it! You may never know it! Your entire being is ringing! There’s no division in that—everything is ringing.”” - Toni Packer, The Wonder of Presence, excerpt from Finding a New Way to Listen

“In ceremony there are forms and there are sounds, there is understanding and there is believing. In liturgy there is only intimacy. Haven't you heard the ancient master's teaching: Seeing forms with the whole body-and-mind, hearing sounds with the whole body-and-mind one understands them intimately. Intimate understanding is not like ordinary understanding. Ordinary understanding is seeing with the eye and hearing with the ear; intimacy is seeing with the ear and hearing with the eye. How do you see with the ear and hear with the eye? Let go of the eye, and the whole body-and-mind are nothing but the eye; let go of the ear, and the whole universe is nothing but the ear.” - Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo)

[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yeah
[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now when u look back all the deconstructions, it is just the sound that is heard. Only sound...but it was "hearer hearing sound"
"Ears, sound, sound consciousness"
It is connectedness of everything as this hearing...
[6:34 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So look into ur experience, sees how the parts r divided by names and designations
[6:39 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now where does causes and conditions step in? Is there any division and can u trace any division?
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cause and conditions step in when the parts, conditions and relations and designation step in
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Therefore Cause and effect are interdefined
[7:06 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is no real division, only dependently designated relations
[7:40 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So what does it mean that causes and conditions r empty? Also what is the purpose of deconstructing?
[7:55 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The conventional causes and conditions unfindable and dependent on the whole host of factors and relations.. purpose is to deconstruct the naive notion of real entities like real ears interacting with real sound producing real effects (inherent production).. in effect all relations are experienced as total exertion and empty clarity rather than truly existent causes and effects or what malcolm said as if eye is inherent agent of inherent forms etc
[7:57 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: If u don't use any Buddhist terms, what do u think is the purpose of deconstruction?
[8:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: to experience fully free of artificial fragmentation and solidification and holdings
[8:11 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Quite good but not good enough.  Solidification and holdings r not necessary.  They r means to an end to allow the mind to understand the cause of contrivance.  Feel how is post anatta like, how do u feel?
[9:07 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: non division, luminous, gapless, no distance... in the seen merely the seen is experienced as luminous and gapless. also another aspect is spontaneous.. i always talk about spontaneous happening, agentless, doerless, perceiverless.. and also dependent on conditions
[9:07 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: but not total exertion or emptiness yet
[9:08 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: no agent, nondual, luminosity, spontaneous and dependent on conditions

[11:58 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2019/10/john-tan-no-reifications-of.html?m=1

No Reifications of a Metaphysical God by John Tan
No Reifications of a Metaphysical God
by John Tan, Buddhist philosopher and practitioner.

What is presence now? Everything... Taste saliva, smell, think, what is that? Snap of a finger, sing. All ordinary activity, zero effort therefore nothing attained. Yet is full accomplishment. In esoteric terms, eat God, taste God, see God, hear God...lol. That is the first thing I told Mr. Jax few years back when he first messaged me If a mirror is there, this is not possible. If clarity isn't empty, this isn't possible. Not even slightest effort is needed. Do you feel it? Grabbing of my legs as if I am grabbing presence! Do you have this experience already? When there is no mirror, then entire existence is just lights-sounds-sensations as single presence. Presence is grabbing presence. The movement to grab legs is Presence.. the sensation of grabbing legs is Presence.. For me even typing or blinking my eyes. For fear that it is misunderstood, don't talk about it. Right understanding is no presence, for every single sense of knowingness is different. Otherwise Mr. Jax will say nonsense... lol. When there is a mirror, this is not possible. Think I wrote to Longchen (Sim Pern Chong) about 10 years ago.”

“After realization… Just eat God, breathe God, smell God and see God… Lastly be fully unestablished and liberate God.”

Soh Wei Yu: "Lest readers misinterpret that John is affirming a substantialist notion of a ‘God’, it should be noted that by the phase of Anatta realization, there is simply no more reifications or conceivings of a metaphysical ‘God’ or ‘Creator’ of any kind, and John was simply using the lingo of Mr. Jax to convey the complete absence of a background substratum of Presence and the total luminosity of Presencing-as-manifestation to Mr. Jax using his ‘esoteric lingo’. Even the word ‘Presence’ is not referring to some static entity here - ‘Presencing’ is perhaps a better term, for as James M. Corrigan wrote, “...Awareness is not something other than the “presencing” (i.e. naturing) of appearances. It is not a thing. It is not part of a thing. It is not an “aspect” of a process… ...it is the process—not some aspect of it”
[11:59 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Don't underestimate this.  An insight as important as anatta post the insight.

[10:32 AM, 6/17/2020] John Tan: Focus on this part.  It is very important, if u can Intuit the insight that lead to this, the rest is not important.  There r many intellectual obscurations and at times the mind is being block and just can't release itself.  Same insight but just can't apply it on different situation relating to different mental proliferation.  The Freedom and release from such an insight is not freedom from conceptuality but a freedom from seeing distinction thereby leading to a direct authentication.  Because it is such an important insight, I will write something for u maybe later.  Focus on it diligently.
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