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Soh Wei Yu
Trained the AI a bit. Now it knows dependent existence is not right view

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Tan Jui Horng
Soh Wei Yu How to train ChatGPT?
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Soh Wei Yu
Tan Jui Horng feed with better information and challenge it and ask it questions to see whether it understood lol
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Anurag Jain
Good that you corrected dependent existence as the final view on emptiness.
But you still did not explain what is the emptiness. For that you have to explain the tetralemma.
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Soh Wei Yu
Anurag Jain
Yes dependent existence is quite clearly refuted by Nagarjuna.
John tan said before:
This comment by Malcolm is really good.
Session Start: Wednesday, August 09, 2006
(11:32 PM) AEN: namdrol:
While it is true that many non-Buddhist paths a reunciate and so on, the unique feature of the Buddha's path is understanding that phenomena are dependently originated. Dependent origination is critical in developing a correct view.
Is the mere knowledge that phenomena dependently originated sufficient? No.
It is possible to hold a view of dependent origination which is nevertheless realist or substantialist in nature-- a perfect example of this would the way Thich Nhat Hahn's "interbeing" is generally understood. Here, it is never questioned that the mutually depedendent phenomena exist in dependence because they all exist together. In general, this is also the naive understanding of dependent origination.
(11:32 PM) AEN: Even so, this view of dependent orgination already marks the beginning of turning from a wrong or incorrect view, to a right or correct view.
How do we move from a substantialist interpretation of dependent origination to a non-substantialist understanding?
We need to first be open to having our existential assumptions undermined. Any clinging to existence and non-existence must be eradicated before we can properly appreciate the meaning of DO. Some people think this simply means clinging to inherent or ultimate existence. But this is not so. Whatever arises in dependence also must be devoid of mere existence as well.
To understand this fully we must understand the perfection of wisdom sutras in their entirety and the thinking of Nagarjuna and his followers.
(11:32 PM) AEN:
When we have truly understood that phenomena are devoid existence and non-existence because they are dependently originated; we can understand that phenomena do not arise, since existence and dependence are mutually exclusive. Any existence that can be pointed to is merely putative and nominal, and does not bear any reasoned investigation.
Since phenomena are dependently originated, and the consquence of dependent origination is that there are no existing existents, we can understand that existents are non-arising by nature. As Buddhapalita states "We do not claim non-existence, we merely remove claims for existing existents."
Whatever does not arise by nature is free from existence and non-existence, and that is the meaning of "freedom from proliferation." In this way, dependent origination = emptiness, and this is the correct view that Buddhas elucidate. There is no other correct view than this.
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Soh Wei Yu
Kyle Dixon:
Existence [bhāva] and dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] are mutually exclusive. For something to actually "exist" it must do so independently of causes and conditions, but as luminaries such as Nāgārjuna point out, that is impossible.
Many people conflate dependent existence [parabhāva], which is something existing with assistance from another, with dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda]. The two are radically different principles. Regarding Nāgārjuna's classification of "existence" [bhāva], he asserts rather damningly:
“Whoever has a view of inherent existence [svabhāva], dependent existence [parabhāva], existence [bhāva] and non-existence [abhāva] do not see the truth of the Buddha's teaching.”
Yet Nāgārjuna was one of the most major proponents of clarifying the inner workings of dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda], and states that there can be no existence established independently of inherent existence or dependent existence in the following inquiry:
“Where is there an existent not included in inherent existence and dependent existence? If inherent existence and dependent existence are established, existence will be established.”
This means that dependent existence [parabhāva] is actually a guise for inherent existence [svabhāva], and therefore is in direct contradiction to dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda]. Further, since we cannot extract any form of existence [bhāva] as separate from dependent existence [parabhāva] or inherent existence [svabhāva], existence in any form is contradictory to dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda].
Buddhapālita comments on Nāgārjuna's damning assertion above:
“Someone like that, who [has a] view of inherent existence, dependent existence, existence or non-existence does not see the truth in the profound and supreme teaching of the Buddha. Because we, in the correct way, see the nonexistence of the inherent existence of things which appear because of the sun of dependent origination arose, because of that, because we see the truth, liberation can be accepted only for us.”
Nāgārjuna is stating that all views of existence contradict dependent origination.
In order for something to exist, it must be independently originated, and conversely, for something to be independently originated it would have to be unconditioned, independent and uncaused, but as mentioned above, this is considered an impossibility in the eyes of the buddhadharma. The correct conventional view for emptiness is dependent origination, and so we see that in order to have objects, persons, places, things and so on, they must be possessed of causes and conditions. Meaning they cannot be found apart from those causes and conditions. If the conditions are removed, the object cannot remain.
Regarding this, Nāgārjuna states the following:
“That which comes into being from a cause, and does not endure without conditions, it disappears as well when conditions are absent - how can this be understood to exist?”
Going on to say:
“Since it comes to and end when ignorance ceases; why does it not become clear then that it was conjured by ignorance?”
And so here we get to the actual meaning, and the heart of dependent origination, which is nonarising [anutpāda]. For an object to inherently exist it must exist outright, independent of causes and conditions, independent of attributes, characteristics and constituent parts. However, we cannot find an inherent object independent of these factors, and the implications of this fact is that we likewise cannot find an inherent object within those factors either.
The object itself, as the core entity which possesses characteristics, is ultimately unfindable. We instead only find a designated collection of pieces, which do not in fact create any discrete object. In the absence of an object the pieces are likewise rendered as incapable of being "pieces" or "parts" and therefore they are also nothing more than arbitrary designations that amount to nothing more than inferences.
This means that all entities, selves, and so on are merely useful conventional designations, their provisional validity is only measured by their efficacy, and apart from that conventional imputation, there is no underlying object that can be ascertained or found.
Dependent origination is the apparent origination of entities that seem to manifest in dependence on causes and conditions. But as Nāgārjuna states above, those causes and conditions are actually the ignorance which afflicts the mindstream, and the conditions of grasping, mine-making and I-making which are the drivers of karmic activity that serve to reify the delusion of a self, or a self in objects, and so on.
This is why many adepts are explicitly clear that dependent origination is synonymous with a lack of origination [anutpāda], because phenomena that originate in dependence on ignorance as a cause, never actually originate at all, for example, Candrakīrti states:
“The perfectly awakened buddhas proclaimed, "What is dependently originated is non-arisen.”
Or Mañjuśrī:
“Whatever is dependently originated does not truly arise.”
Nāgārjuna once again:
“What originates dependently is non-arisen!”
Thus dependent origination is incapable of producing existence of any sort, because dependent origination is incapable of producing entities. Entities and existence only appear because of the ignorance which afflicts your mind. When that ignorance is removed, all perceptions of existence are removed, all perceptions of selves are removed and all perceptions of origination are removed.
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Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu lol. Lot of words. Still does not explain what is emptiness...
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Soh Wei Yu
Anurag Jain it is explained above
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Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu ok. But not as clear as the tetralemma.
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Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
> In the Lankavatara Sutra, the Buddha teaches: "All things are empty of self-nature. They are not produced from themselves, nor are they produced from other things, nor are they produced by both. They have no producer." (Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter 3)
Nice!
> The Lankavatara Sutra states: "By knowing that all things are empty, one can remove all clinging and attain final Nirvana." (Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter 4)
Nice!
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Someone said all pervading presence implies nondual is realised. I explained it is not the same with teh following quotations:

All pervading presence doesnt mean nondual is realised.

“Just my opinion...

For my case, the first time i experienced a definitive I AM presence, there was zero thought. just a borderless, all pervading presence. In fact, there was no thinking or looking out for whether this is I AM or not. There was no conceptual activity. It was interpreted as 'I AM' only after that experience.

To me, I AM experience is actually a glimpse of the way reality is.. but it is quickly re-interpreted. The attribute of 'borderlessness' is experienced. but other 'attributes such as 'no subject-object', 'transparent luminosity, emptiness are not understood yet.

My take, is that when 'I AM' is experienced, you will be doubtless that it is the experience.”

- Sim Pern Chong, 2022

Thusness wrote to Sim back in 2005 while Sim was still at his I AM phased (sim realised anatta and emptiness in the following years):

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/09/early-forum-posts-by-thusness_17.html

Excerpts:

stream.

Thusness:

Hi LongChen,

It is not that it is pointless to experience all as pure presence.

Your experience of "All there is are actually the all-pervading Presence" is most valuable and sacred.

Nothing is more real and clear than IT -- The reality of All.

There is no doubt about it. Smile

I am sure you have experienced 'Pure Presence' but I am equally sure that it escapes you in daily life experiences.

Why is this so?

Because during the process of analysis we have unknowingly divided 'Pure Presence' from sensation, thoughts, images, taste and forms..etc

and worst still we have made this a blueprint for us to 'see' and 'experience' the phenomenon existence.

This unintentional re-enforcement of our karmic forces will prevent us from experiencing our nature in full

and 'Pure Consciousness' will become a transparent like-substance hiding somewhere waiting forever to be found.

This Pure Consciousness as a 'transparent-formless-light' is an image created by thought, it is not the true face of Pure Consciousness.

Do explore into the concept of Emptiness and Conditional Arising of Buddhism in detail if you have time. Smile

Thusness

Longchen:

Dear Thusness,

Thank you for your advice... it is most valid and helpful and I can see that 'habit' that you have described.

I do have experiences of presence in the daily waking life... but there are also habitual patterns as well. It will take time and fearlessness to fully stabilise. You know what i mean.

Also, I have psychically 'read' you and Xabir (i.e. AEN/Soh) and are intuitively factored.

Thanks for the help. Smile

Thusness:

Eternal Now,

When the pure, formless, clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous enters

the sphere of thoughts, the mind transforms the Presence into an 'ENTITY' that is pure, formless,

clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous.

This entity, this something is the 'Self' added by a divided mind.

Without creating this 'center', this base, this something, a divided mind does not know how to function. Because the thinking mind understands through measurement and comparison.

In Buddhism, this 'Self' is extra and created. In reality it does not exist.

This is the wisdom to be awaken in order to see reality in its nakedness.

When this is clear, the stream always IS.

Longchen:

Hi Sangha,

What happens when presence is eliminated. No thought, no presence... then could this be a blank?

I do have a time when i meditated into a blank. No perception. it was when the mind 'moves' again that i realise that i was in the blank.

Thanks you.

Thusness:

Hi LongChen,

The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty of consciousness is temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial. Smile

The 'Self' that is created over countless lives of attachment cannot be underestimated.

We are in almost helpless bondage that our perceptions are shaped and held in a sort

of hypnosis that we feel, think, experience and deduced our understandings from the

perspective of an 'I'. Thus analytical understanding derived from the glimpse of

the Pure Presence Reality will very quickly get distorted.

When Presence is experienced with the six sense doors shut,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AMness".

When Presence is experience with six sense doors widely open,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AM All".

However neither experience tells us the TRUE NATURE of Pure Presence.

Even the very sense of Realness, of Existence, of Life and Vividness is so strong,

due to the sense of 'I' there will be a sense of location somewhere,

and the true face of Pure Presence remains hidden.

The mind is just not used to knowing the absolutely nothing, non-local,

nowhere to be found yet pure, brilliance bright and ever luminous.

It will locate, it will find, it will grasp.

There must come a time for the mind to let go of itself completely.

If we are bold enough to let go and enter into the world that is wordless,

labelless and thoughtless, and if this is sustained, wisdom and insight will arise.

This wisdom is the extraordinary Clarity, Vividness and Realness, wholeness whole.

It is crystal clear filling all spaces and places.

Both in silence and in noise, in blankness and somethingness.

Those that experience the Pure Presence will appreciate this crystal clear reality.

This re-visiting of Pure Presence will be thorough and entire.

There will be no doubt.

Buddhism Emptiness is deep and profound. Do go into it. Smile

Happy Journey

Longchen:

Hi Thusness,

Your message feels of truth. Thanks for it. I will do as you advice. Very Happy

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/157333?page=2

Thusness:

Hi longchen,

It is ungraspable not because the Ultimate Object cannot be the subject of observation; but rather there is really no such ‘ultimate object’ hiding behind anywhere. A ‘someone’ inside somewhere is from the very beginning a mistake. True authenticity comes when we realized that any form of ‘centricity’ is illusionary.

To experience the Pure Presence of Isness, “I AMness” must completely dissolve. The Pure Presence you experienced is non-local and has no-center. It becomes an ‘I AM’ due to linear mode of analysis. If you have time do explore into insight meditation and the essence of ‘Emptiness’ Wink

Regards,

Thusness

…..

another quote from sim pern chong from 2008:

I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.

To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.

However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required.

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html

…..

In 2004, Sim Pern Chong wrote this while he was in his I AM stage and has not yet realised nondual or anatman (no-self):

“Who are we? Really

“The Matrix” is one movie that got many a viewer pondering on the nature of reality. I, for one, am a great fan of The Matrix. In many ways, although not exactly true or that diabolical, the movie is symbolic of the nature of reality. Many a times, meditation allows one to catch glimpses beyond the ordinary. There are some meditation sessions that literally redefined my identity and altered my perception of the world. I must emphasize that meditation is the major modality that helped me to understand myself better.

The Eternal Watcher- The True Identity

In one ‘awakening’ meditation, I came to a state of no thoughts. Such experiences are very hard to describe. This is because the explanation process itself, is within the medium of thoughts and concepts. It is impossible to describe a state of no thoughts using thoughts! Anyway, in the void of no thoughts, one naturally assume that everything must be an unconscious blank. However, that was not the case! What came next was quite a revelation to me. In the void of no thought, I perceived myself to be a Presence... Here's how I will describe myself.

"The Presence is all pervasive, yet un-intrusive. He seems to be in all

things and observes with utter passiveness. He exists beyond concepts,

beliefs and do not need any form. Therefore, I understand him as

eternal.

He also seems to be the subtler state of myself. I also got the feeling

that he existed in all my lifetimes or even more. If I were to name him, I

will describe him as The Eternal Watcher.”

You can say that I was completely blown away by the experience. The ‘discovery’ of the Eternal Watcher was a very important event that completely changed the way I understood consciousness. It also made me contemplated very deeply and seriously about the possible existence of the Divine. These spurred me on an ardent search to understand and make sense of it all. I corresponded with whoever I think can help me unlock the mystery. These people included clairvoyants, other meditators, people on spiritual paths and new-agers.

From these investigations, it was discovered that others have had similar experiences as well. Based on the consistency and plurality of the descriptions by others, something becomes very certain to me. That is, a human being is much more than a body that can talk and think. The Human Personality, which is our character, is only an outer consciousness of the human. With regard to our identity, our personality is merely the tip of the iceberg. Within the human being’s psyche lie much subtler and often-obscured levels of consciousness. I believe these inner consciousnesses could be the different depths of the Soul or levels of being-ness even more profound than that. About the Eternal Watcher, he is ever present. You didn’t see him doesn’t means he is not there. Because the Presence is so close to the mind, it is not easily perceived.

Perceiving the Eternal Watcher was achieved through the relaxed observation of my own breath. The ultra-relaxed observation eventually becomes a purely passive allowance for thoughts to pass through my consciousness. This, in turn, led to a gradual shutting down of the mental processes of my physical brain cumulating into a state of ‘no-thoughts’. Beyond the transitional phase of ‘no-thoughts’, I became the Eternal Watcher. Experiencing the Eternal Watcher is not an exercise that I can easily brush off as inconsequential. It is not possible for me to assume that my perception of existence and life can be the same as before. Doing so will be blatantly self-deceiving. To me, the most profound experiences where not from doing something. They came from doing nothing.

I believed the Eternal Watcher is the individualized God/Source Presence within oneself. I also believe this Presence is Rigpa as described in Tibetan Buddhism. Some people suggest that the Presence is the same as the Oversoul. However, I am not too sure about this. I hope I am not confusing you. In any case, the only way to validate all these is to personally experience the Presence (Eternal Watcher) and these states for oneself.

That ‘no-thought experience’ was not the only mystical meditative experience. I have also experienced being a vast ocean of bliss. Ironically, the meditations that were attempted with an agenda of wanting to experience something mystical are the ones that are the least successful. Expectation puts a limit on how far one’s consciousness can go. For me, it was better to keep an open mind before sitting down to Meditate.”