Of late I had a few conversations with a number of people whose experience of no-self is skewed towards non-doership rather than pellucid no-self, the pellucidity of luminosity in nondual and no-self. John Tan too have similar encounters. At the most their insight is into the first stanza of anatta but not the second https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../on-anatta... .
I think I will need to write an article on this in AtR blog and guide.
[8:39 PM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: Yes more on no-doership.
[8:40 PM, 6/9/2021] John Tan: 1. Dzogchen has a phrase "spontaneous presence". I do not know it's exact meaning in dzogchen however the phrase is intimately related to the 2 experiences of the 2 stanzas:
1. No doership = spontaneous
2. Mere appearances as Presence
Imo, she is more on 1 not so much on 2 so far in her descriptions."
"[11:25 PM, 5/23/2021] John Tan: Like in prasangika mmk, the non-affirming negation, in the phases of insights approach of the 2 stanzas,one is not interested in the affirmation, just the thorough deconstruction of self construct. The seeing through of self in anatta is the direct experiential taste of non-dual, purity and spontaneity.
[11:39 PM, 5/23/2021] John Tan: So when someone describe to u, they say they have deconstruct self/Self but there is no direct taste of colors, smell, sensation, sound, no direct face to face of the radiance, pellucidity, purity, spontaneity, insubstantiality and non-duality of appearances, is that genuine authentication?
[12:00 AM, 5/24/2021] Soh Wei Yu: No its not.. more like impersonality
[12:00 AM, 5/24/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Or nondoership"
“Immediate Present, Ultimate Dharma
Since our activity is not a progression from delusion to enlightenment made solely by the independent self, Dogen defines the first thought of practice as 'immediate present ultimate Dharma' or genjokoan: the presence and perfection of all dharmas as they are in the here-and-now.' Hee-Jin Kim further explains the meaning of genjokoan:
'It does not suggest an evolutionary ascent from hidden-ness to manifestation, or from imperfection to perfection, or conversely, an emanational descent from one to many, or from reality to appearance. Rather, things, events, beings are already unmistakably what they truly are; what is more, they are vibrant, transparent, and bright in their as-they-are-ness.'” - Zen teacher Shinshu Roberts
“I was having a conversation with someone today (he had some history with various practices, vipassana, actual freedom, and recently came across a famous Thai ajahn, etc) who shared about an experience of dissolving into centerless space. I told him what I call anatta is not just being centerless, it is the effulgence and radiance of the transience. And John Tan concurs with me on this point. That is, regardless of any realization of no-self, and no matter how centerless one feels or how centerless is one's experience of awareness and so forth... still, anything short of direct realization of the radiance or luminosity as the very stuff of transiency is still not what I call the realization of anatta. (And that too is also just an aspect of anatta, and furthermore not yet into the twofold emptying)”
Soh Wei Yu is at Gardens by the Bay.
JuotSplyu 1sgolnu2,s Sour2cSr020coenld · Singapore ·
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At this time, everything in the Universe in the ten directions - soil, earth, grass, and trees; fences, walls, tiles and pebbles - perform the Buddha’s work... The grass, trees, soil, earth reached by this guiding influence all radiate great brightness, and their preaching of the deep and fine dharma is without end.
~ Zen Master Dogen
John Tan
Coincidentally I was watching anime 斗罗大陆, it expresses the experience and taste of total exertion beautifully. I can feel for the character where his clarity loses every trace into the natural radiance and purity of the trees, the flowing river, the wind, the smell and the light.
• • ·
• · 48w"
But this does not mean the non-doership or no agent aspect of first stanza is less important. As John Tan also said about someone else:
"More towards second stanza, non-doership is equally important."


Anatta and Pure Presence

Someone told me about having been through insights of no self and then progressing to a realisation of the ground of being.


I replied:


Hi ____


Thanks for the sharing.


This is the I AM realization. Had that realisation after contemplating Before birth, who am I? For two years. It’s an important realization. Many people had insights into certain aspects of no self, impersonality, and “dry non dual experience” without doubtless realization of Presence. Therefore I AM realisation is a progression for them.


Similarly in Zen, asking who am I is to directly experience presence. How about asking a koan of what is the cup? What is the chirping bird, the thunder clap? What is its purpose?


When I talked about anatta, it is a direct insight of Presence and recognizing what we called background presence, is in the forms and colours, sounds and sensations, clean and pure. Authentication is be authenticated by all things. Also there is no presence other than that. What we call background is really just an image of foreground Presence, even when Presence is assuming its subtle formless all pervasiveness.


However due to ignorance, we have a very inherent and dual view, if we do see through the nature of presence, the mind continues to be influenced by dualistic and inherent tendencies. Many teach to overcome it through mere non conceptuality but this is highly misleading.


Thusness also wrote in 2018:


The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights”


“In addition to what you wrote, I hope to convey another dimension of Presence to you.  That is Encountering Presence in its first impression, unadulterated and full blown in stillness.


So after reading it, just feel it with your entire body-mind and forgot about it. Don't let it corrupt your mind.😝


Presence, Awareness, Beingness, Isness are all synonyms.  There can be all sorts of definitions but all these are not the path to it.  The path to it must be non-conceptual and direct. This is the only way.


When contemplating the koan "before birth who am I", the thinking mind attempts to seek into it's memory bank for similar experiences to get an answer.  This is how the thinking mind works -  compare, categorize and measure in order to understand.


However when we encounter such a koan, the mind reaches its limit when it tries to penetrate its own depth with no answer.  It will come a time the mind exhausts itself and come to a complete standstill and from that stillness comes an earthshaking  BAM!


I. Just I.


Before birth this I, a thousand years ago this I, a thousand later this I.  I AM I.


It is without any arbitrary thoughts, any comparisons.  It fully authenticates it's own clarity, it's own existence, ITSELF in clean, pure, direct non-conceptuality.  No why, no because.


Just ITSELF in stillness nothing else.


Intuit the vipassana and the samatha.  Intuit the total exertion and realization.   The essence of message must be raw and uncontaminated by words. It cannot be secondhand.


Hope that helps!

...There is nothing underneath everything, in the state of I AM, it is just I AM. The rest of the 5 sense doors are shut. Everything else is excluded. It is called I simply because of the koan, nothing else.


What’s experienced is similar to hearing sound without the sense of hearer. So keep the experience but refine the view.” - John Tan to someone in Awakening to Reality Discussion Group, 2019


If you are skewing towards non-doership, you can contemplate and practice to realise and experience the luminosity aspect:

etc etc
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