Yin Ling shared:

I love this from dzongsar khentse rinpoche. Not everyone is suitable to be taught anatta or truth of reality so we have to becareful. Unless u know them well, it’s really hard to advice.
I also won’t tell someone who has suicidal intent to meditate. He needs immediate antidepressant.
There are many ways to well-being in this life. Not just Buddhist philosophy and doctrine. I have asked a Muslim patient to go pray 5 times a day. A Hindu patient to go to the temple and make offerings. Another British person to go do some charity because she doesn’t believe in a god. A teenager to go play football. Skillful means is important esp as someone who sees mental health.
“Everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask”
Part 5: Mental Health
🌀 Q. Could I, as an instructor, recommend a student to seek psychological therapy for some issues? Or is it better to only advise inside the Dharma context?
It is absolutely fine to go to therapy. Dharma is, strictly speaking, not really a therapy. It should not be really aimed at healing. The ultimate purpose of Dharma practice should be discovering the truth, actualizing the truth, to be awakened to the truth – however one wants to put it. I suppose you can say that it is the ultimate healing.
But in order for us to be strong and healthy in our pursuit of the truth we should be as healthy as possible. For that, eating well, living well, caring for our body, emotions and mind: all of these are a must. So just as a Dharma practitioner can receive a massage or acupuncture to make oneself strong and healthy, you should recommend these kinds of methods to whoever needs it.
I was told that some therapies involve believing in a soul or a higher external being or Almighty. If the person who wants to receive therapy is a follower of the Buddha, we would need to customize or adjust that.
🌀 Q. I encounter some Dharma practitioners who struggle with depression and take medication. I don’t fully understand depression but it seems like some of these people can’t really function. Is there a danger of using medication to avoid the pain? Or is it better to support them doing what they do to feel better?
I looked up the definition of the word depression: the dictionary defines it as “a mental state characterized by a pessimistic sense of inadequacy and a despondent lack of activity”. In fact, I think the notion of depression is much larger than that and even infinite in scope, and that it can actually mean many different things. But for now, I can only answer as a Buddhist, based on the very vague definition of depression found in the English dictionary and in relation to how I assume the English-speaking world defines and understands the word.
I guess depression mostly carries a sense of expecting the worst outcome in our life in general or in a particular aspect of life such as relationship, health or job. But from a Buddhist point of view, every aspect of life, as long as it is conditioned and a by-product of defilement, in other words of duality, is duḥkha.
But that statement should not create more pessimism. Duḥkha is simply a truth – exactly like saying that water is H2O. However, people need one more piece of information in order to grasp that truth, which is that the essence of duḥkha is shunyata.
We have depression because we have so many references, ideals and values. That reference or value can be as mundane as an image of an ideal shampoo. There is a whole range of such utopian and dystopian references and ideals, ninety-nine percent of which can never be achieved. Even if you achieve some, they will either leave you soon or you’ll no longer be interested because another reference is waiting for you.
Our consumer society makes no effort to reduce such references and actually does the opposite. So, we 21st century people are going to get more and more depressed.
I think when modern people look into the root of mental illnesses such as depression, they can only go back as far as perhaps childhood trauma or at least a trauma or shock that someone experienced in this life. But in Buddhism, we see defiled beings as having the illusion of time, but this time did not just begin the moment they were conceived in their mother’s womb. The continuity of who you are actually goes back much further than your first consciousness on this earth.
In other words, we Buddhists believe in reincarnation. Although I hate the English word “reincarnation”, I am using it here for the sake of making this all easier to understand. This understanding helps explain why we may feel depressed, sentimental, or melancholic in our present life for no obvious reason. We might yearn for a political ideal, or long for the bliss of sipping a coffee on a Saigon balcony to the sound of torrential rain.
From that perspective, much of the current depression or mental illness in the world could definitely be caused by or be the residue of past life events – past lives that could even go back thousands of lifetimes. For this reason, I think we actually have an infinite amount of mental illness in the world.
Depression or mental illness caused by childhood trauma might be more gross or tangible. But many people suffer simply by not knowing why we even feel, know, are conscious or even exist. Why, we may think, can’t we just be a pebble or a piece of wood? That would at least be free from all the kinds of values that taunt us.
So, to come back to your original question: As a Buddhist, I would encourage you to use any kind of methods – be it a weekend vipassana meditation retreat or popping some pills or micro-dosing with mushrooms – so long as they help us reach a level of sanity where we can decipher, appreciate and have some ability to understand basic truths – all the way from realizing that all compounded things are impermanent to recognizing that our true nature is dharmakaya.
You also asked whether there is a danger of using medication to avoid pain? With all solutions there are always dangers – in solutions like medication, of course, but even on the spiritual path. That’s why the masters of the past have likened the spiritual path to terrain in which we have to go one step at a time. Even if they take only a few steps, it would be good for people to have a certain amount of sanity.


Someone with schizophrenia wrote:

"Hi. If i am not the i thought, why does the i thought stil appears here? If I am not the the I, who is the I in the head then? Is the thought thinking to itself as I? It seems that now here the I thought has a life of itself. I am not this I but the thought I talks to itself saying things like ‘ I am sad oh John’ . I am John. So now the I thought exists as a thought only complaining that it’s life sucks and that I have thrown him out of the belief of being an I. I am now left with a mind that talks to me separately from me so it thinks like this>> ‘ I am sad and u thrown me out and I feel lonely in my head cause I am not you anymore’."

    Albert Hong
    I am going to pretty much say the exact opposite of everyone.
    Instead of losing the I or self, what you need is a self. You need an agent, an individuated sense of self.
    Dissociation is not what you need. And I recommend strongly listening to your therapist.
    Especially since you're dealing with mental illness. The teachings then need to be approached with very careful consideration of your mental well being.
    So, basically you need an actual teacher. Not just yourself on the internet. Not just books. Not just people telling you what you should or shouldn't do online.
    So more agency. More sense of self. More individuation. More development of basic, healthy, sense of ego and relationship.

  • Reply

    Albert Hong
    Instead of focusing on conceptuality. Or ideas. Or even inquiry. OR anything abstract. You need to do physical activities. Body based activities that have NOTHING to do with fantasy or your mental images.
    Again talk to your therapist. Go to many different therapists. Take your medication.
    No one here can really tell you what to do. Nor is it really appropriate to say anything regarding this or that.
    We are all estimating based on our limited interaction based on what we think is good for ourselves.
    Nonetheless, I repeat listen to your therapist.
    You really need to be a very integrated and whole individual to move into conscious disassociation.
    If you're not mentally healthy, then there is no real point in investigating as it will just lead to more issues, more error.
    This is why teachings of Metta and bodhicitta, heart based practices are emphasized.
    Because all of it makes it real in the heart. You know that whole feeling mechanism that allows for empathy and feelings.
    To be able to feel requires tremendous embodiment and agency.
    Everyones pooping on agency and ego but to develop an integrated ego and truly healthy and whole agency is really difficult and rare.
    That's the basis. So please, listen to your therapist.

  • Reply

  • Albert Hong
    the point of dharma is to become capable and loving.
    it's not ideas about this or that.
    What use is breaking through thoughts if you can't even hold a job. Or have relationships?
    Or function basically in everyday life.
    Really it is about a kind heart rooted in the basic wisdom of what we are.
    There is nothing abstract about that. No thoughts to even fight or cultivate.
    Your heart wide open, tender and radiant. That's all.
    It's stupid simple. And instead of dissociation it should lead to more integration. More depths of capacity as an agent.
    Your ego should be healthy, vibrant and alive.
    Without ego you cannot function.
    People who cannot function already just don't have a developed ego.
    Some people call that spirituality, but really its just mental illness.
    so please do yourself a favor and truly take the advice given to you by the professionals whom are trying to help you.

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      From Daniel M. Ingram's book:
      "There is a reason that many meditation centers have questionnaires about physical and mental history, previous and current medications, psychiatric diagnoses, and the like, as they know that those who are less stable don’t always do well when things get weirder or their concentration gets ramped up. Some of my bipolar and schizophrenic friends who meditate have strongly encouraged me to include something that says to avoid the high-intensity techniques that I present here, to keep things more grounded in physical activities or somatic practices, to use much lower doses of meditation, to practice very gently, and avoid visualization and mantra practices unless you are working very closely with a qualified teacher. Being physically ungrounded, practicing frequently and intensely, and doing visualization and mantra practices without qualified guidance can increase the risks of meditation practice going wrong."
      "As an aside, please do not assume that meditation will allow you to come off your meds if you are on meds for something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. It is not that gentle meditation can’t help some people with mental illness, as it can, but it can also greatly increase mental instability at times, so keep whoever helps you manage your illness in the loop about what is going on with you if you get into meditation, and be honest with them about what you are experiencing."
      61. Crazy?
      61. Crazy?
      61. Crazy?

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        Soh Wei Yu
        I concur with Albert Hong’s advises above so do read through them and take heed.
        It is better to stabilize one’s mental condition especially when it comes to schizophrenia, before proceeding with inquiry and practice.
        In other words as long as one has this mental condition, then the focus must be to stabilize this condition with medication, treatment and so on. Anything destabilizing should be avoided.

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        • Edited

      • Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel
        Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel
        Can someone with schizophrenia practice? - Dharma Wheel

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        If one is still drawn to spirituality then one should find a qualified and awakened teacher but keep the teacher informed about one’s mental conditions and the destabilizing effects of any practices and inquiry one engages with. It is inadvisable to do any sort of practices unguided.

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  • p.s. Albert Hong's advise also reminds me of John Tan's advise for someone suffering depression in 2007:

    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (11:11 AM) AEN:    In your response to my post you asked about fear and yes i have been experience intense fear in the last few weeks, frustration too. Just to explain a little.I was with my father for two weeks while he was ill and close to death and the worst thing for him was, although he never said it was the waiting for that moment.
    Well thats the fear Iam experiencing. During a very bad episode of depression about six months ago something inside quiet literaly died and since then its like waiting for the physical to catch up and die and that has become quiet intense. I write this by way of a little explanation of where I'm at, I don't like to talk about depression anymore. But it was interesting that you picked up on fear.
    At this stage I feel E.T.'s teaching is not helping much and feel I may have even slipped back and lost some understanding. But he did say it confounds the mind and I find that to be true.
    So I don't know where Iam at now.
    (11:11 AM) AEN:    sounds like dark nights? lol
    (12:35 PM) Thusness:    nothing like dark night lah
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    oic
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    then wat is it.. lol
    (12:35 PM) AEN:    y does she fear?
    (12:36 PM) Thusness:    i am still not sure. :)
    (12:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (12:36 PM) Thusness:    what is the url?
    (12:36 PM) AEN:    nope.. her reply to me privately
    (12:37 PM) Thusness:    ic
    (12:37 PM) Thusness:    what is eckhart tolle forum url?
    (12:37 PM) AEN:    http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/index.php
    (12:38 PM) Thusness:    she or he?
    (12:38 PM) AEN:    actually i tink shld be he
    (12:38 PM) AEN:    lol
    (12:48 PM) Thusness:    he/she is a christian?
    (12:48 PM) AEN:    dunnu.. but i tink he wld is ok with buddhism.. told him a little
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    *he is ok
    (12:49 PM) Thusness:     u told him about emptiness?
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    ya a little
    (12:49 PM) AEN:    lol
    (12:51 PM) Thusness:    and the thread about "hi everyone!"?
    (12:52 PM) AEN:    yea lol
    (12:58 PM) AEN:    he mentioned of depression here: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?p=10092&highlight=#10092
    (1:00 PM) Thusness:    ahhaa...think its 'he' :P
    (1:00 PM) AEN:    ya
    (1:00 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    wah....so many ppl got depression in the forum. :P
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    ya
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    better don't send me too many such msgs. :P
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    bcos they are depressed, they find eckhart tolle
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    later my mind full of depression
    (1:09 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (1:09 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:11 PM) AEN:    btw even after experiencing 'i amness' the depression wont go away at all? lol
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    it depends.
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    for me it does.
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    hehehe
    (1:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    but there are other type of sufferings
    (1:12 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:12 PM) Thusness:    but his seems quite intense.
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:13 PM) Thusness:    i din know so many ppl were under depression in eckhart forum...:P
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    hahaha
    (1:13 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    actually PON is not suitable for him.
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    and the more he experiences, the more problems he will encounter.
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    har
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    why like that
    (1:14 PM) AEN:    then wat is suitable for him.. lol
    (1:14 PM) Thusness:    because eckhart tolle isn't there yet
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    and what is taught is only 1/3 of the story
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    but don't say this to him hah
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    so dharma dan's shld help him? :P
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    oic lol
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    hmm....nope
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    dharma dan should be able to help him in person.
    (1:15 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (1:15 PM) AEN:    wahahaha
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    but not through his e-book
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    what else did u tell him?
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    roughly that only loh
    (1:16 PM) Thusness:    actually "hi everyone" doesn't really suit him.
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    isit
    (1:16 PM) AEN:    how come
    (1:17 PM) Thusness:    difficult to tell u lah
    (1:17 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:17 PM) Thusness:    but it is good for him to read about it lah
    (1:17 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    so wat.. i tell him to contact dharma dan? LOL
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    no lah don't anyhow advice lah
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    kok ur head
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    hahaha ok
    (1:18 PM) Thusness:    later disappoint him.
    (1:18 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (1:19 PM) AEN:    btw other than the 6 stages i got talk about the problem of eternalism
    (1:19 PM) AEN:    i copied a little of wat u wrote.. like
    Thusness recently said: "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion.


    Although there is non-dual in Advaita and no-self in Buddhism, Advaita rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic Question), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
    (1:20 PM) AEN:    copied from the andrew's topic
    (1:20 PM) AEN:    and "That there must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary."
    (1:21 PM) Thusness:    u copied this to him?
    (1:21 PM) AEN:    yea
    (1:22 PM) Thusness:    anyway it will not work for him lah...
    (1:22 PM) AEN:    haha icic
    (1:22 PM) AEN:    so now his problem is what.. depression? :P
    (1:22 PM) Thusness:    depression is just a word. :)
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oh then
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    u din read what he wrote ah
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    doctors and medication all din work for him
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oic yea
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    lol
    (1:23 PM) Thusness:    so need miracle to cure him.
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:23 PM) AEN:    wah
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    but practise in insights will help him rite?
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    sorry
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    i mean
    (1:29 PM) AEN:    practise and insight
    (1:30 PM) Thusness:    nope
    (1:30 PM) AEN:    wah
    (1:31 PM) AEN:    u mean even if become enlightened will still be depressed? :P
    (1:31 PM) Thusness:    u called him enlightened ah..:P
    (1:31 PM) AEN:    hmm so spiritual, med, psychologist etc all wont help, that means really no help la
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    not as the way u tell him.
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    or ET taught
    (1:32 PM) Thusness:    or insight meditation
    (1:32 PM) AEN:    oic then wat kinda help
    (1:32 PM) AEN:    will help
    (1:33 PM) Thusness:    it is a very very complex problem. :)
    (1:33 PM) Thusness:    Faith will help but more than that
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    the problem is it needs a miracle to lead him into faith
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (1:34 PM) Thusness:    as in christ. :)
    (1:34 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:35 PM) AEN:    needs a miracle to lead him into christ?
    (1:35 PM) AEN:    so u mean he shld have faith in jesus
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    difficult to tell u lah
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    not about surrendering
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    nor insight
    (1:35 PM) Thusness:    don't tell him about that
    (1:36 PM) Thusness:    even if he accepts it, his problem will be intensified.
    (1:36 PM) Thusness:    it is better not to do anything.
    (1:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:37 PM) Thusness:    today still quite free. :)
    (1:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (1:37 PM) Thusness:    maybe i will meditate later.
    (1:37 PM) AEN:    oic..

    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (1:51 PM) Thusness:    not awareness but conscious or self-aware
    (1:51 PM) Thusness:    it is not only fear he has, but a deep sense of loneliness
    (1:51 PM) AEN:    icic
    (1:52 PM) Thusness:    and ironically he also fear to let go of being extremely conscious and lonely
    (1:52 PM) AEN:    lol icic
    (1:53 PM) Thusness:    because of that, he cannot practice presence as in PON
    (1:53 PM) Thusness:    it will only intensify this self-awareness
    (1:53 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    a new earth also?
    (1:54 PM) Thusness:    what a new earth?
    (1:54 PM) Thusness:    have not read the book. :P
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    extremely conscious as in conscious of 'I Am'
    (1:54 PM) AEN:    oic
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    yes
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    he cannot sink further into the background.
    (1:55 PM) Thusness:    it is haunting him although he said there is no 'I'.
    (1:56 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:56 PM) Thusness:    practice metta meditation may help
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    together with bodily sensation.
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    means feel the body
    (1:57 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    and forget all other teachings. :)
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    forget about the self-awareness
    (1:57 PM) Thusness:    forget about the now
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    forget about presence
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    if he can do it. :)
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    means take up personality
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    feel the body
    (1:58 PM) Thusness:    and practice metta, compassion
    (1:58 PM) AEN:    back
    (1:58 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (1:59 PM) AEN:    means take up personality?
    (1:59 PM) AEN:    wat u mean
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    don't be formless
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    don't be imageless
    (1:59 PM) Thusness:    forget about the source
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    and take up personality as like ego, as AEN, as John...etc
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    and practice metta for some time
    (2:00 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (2:00 PM) Thusness:    replace all understanding with metta and takes up forms.
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    love forms
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    i think this is a better fit for him now. :)
    (2:01 PM) Thusness:    but don't over advice.
    (2:01 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (2:02 PM) Thusness:    u cannot apply the same medicine to all ppl leh
    (2:02 PM) AEN:    icic
    (2:02 PM) AEN:    lol
    (2:02 PM) Thusness:    only when condition is right, then u can tell.
    (2:03 PM) AEN:    iic..
    (2:03 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (3:00 PM) AEN:    btw ask u ah.. is parinirvana (after death) total presence without conditions, isit like deep sleep?
    (3:01 PM) Thusness:    no lah
    (3:01 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    nirodha samapatti is like deep sleep rite?
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    wats the difference between deep sleep and parinirvana
    (3:02 PM) Thusness:    deep sleep is a form of condition
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:02 PM) Thusness:    in human form
    (3:02 PM) AEN:    icic
    (3:03 PM) AEN:    so parinirvana is total presence without conditions, of even the deep sleep?
    (3:03 PM) Thusness:    where we are only dealing with certain aspect of cognition and mental states put into suspension.
    (3:03 PM) AEN:    oic
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    it is not at u or my stage to speculate anything about parinirvana. :P
    (3:04 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    anyway do not mistaken a suspension of memory as cessation of consciousness
    (3:04 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (3:04 PM) Thusness:    and what that is important is experience presence first.
    (3:05 PM) AEN:    icic
    (3:27 PM) AEN:    btw master tozan's rank 3 and 4 talks about self arising.. what about rank 5? :P
    (3:27 PM) AEN:   
    V. Unity Attained:

    Arrival within Both at the Once [ken-chu-to]

    The Master's verse-comment says:

    How many times has Tokuun, the idle old gimlet,
    Not come down from the Marvelous Peak!
    He hires foolish wise men to bring snow,
    And he and they together fill up the well.

    The student who wishes to pass through Tozan's rank of " Unity Attained " should first study this verse.

    It is of the utmost importance to study and pass through the Five Ranks, to attain penetrating insight into them, and to be totally without fixation or hesitation. But, though your own personal study of the Five Ranks comes to an end, the Buddha-way stretches endlessly and there are no tarrying places on it. The Gates of Dharma are manifold.
    (3:30 PM) Thusness:    who tell u rank 4 is self-arising?
    (3:30 PM) AEN:    u said rank 4 is self arising is by meeting opposites or something
    (3:30 PM) AEN:    like unmanifested is manifested, etc
    (3:31 PM) Thusness:    unmanifested is the manifest is not self-arising leh
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    huh
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    orh then rank 4 is what?
    (3:31 PM) Thusness:    is just non-dual only.
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    har
    (3:31 PM) AEN:    ok
    (3:32 PM) Thusness:    by the way what is the url?
    (3:32 PM) AEN:    http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/five_ranks.html

    Session Start: Wednesday, 21 February, 2007

    (6:47 PM) AEN:    Yes your friend is exactly right in everything he said, I recognise symptoms of depression since age 7 or 8 which got worse with age ( i'm 48, male) but was diagnosed as clinlcal depressed about 7years ago. For the last 2 years its become chronic and I had to quit work, so I lost contact with people as it became to hard to hide it anymore and I physicaly couldn't do it anymore.
    I have hid it from everyone all my life except family and I just pretend to be someone else with others.
    I have always been extremely self conscious and hide that too. But yes lonliness has become a big problem always has been, even though I'm married and have 3 children.
    I may as well say that I have lost all hope and direction in life and stuggle all day everyday with suicidal thoughts. I'm not into self harm so I will not carry it out though. I'm a bit stubborn that way.
    Basicaly E.T was my last hope so I have put a lot of effort into that as medication and other therapies has not helped at all.
    I have been trying inner body awareness and watching the breath while meditating and during the day.
    I did have a
    (6:47 PM) AEN:    I did have an experience of the void in which there was only a sense of impersonal Amness but have not been able to repeat it , instead there is lost time and blankness as if I ceased to exist when I meditate now, but its not like sleep.
    My sleeping is very bad too, I'm told I shout and physically fight most of the time but I don't recall dreaming or remember any of it.
    Thanks for taking an interest you are very sincere and I hate to lay this stuff on anyone, so sorry about that. I will check out the links you gave me and practice body awareness.
    I had an interesting experience last week where I got the impression that the scene outdoors was a reflection of the self everywhere I looked, I was still aware of the body. I later put it down to mind/thought not so sure now
    though. I really don't trust my mind anymore. Thanks again, hope this isn't to heavy, you can tell i worry a lot too. cya
    (10:02 PM) Thusness:    ai yoo...u din say i said right?
    (10:04 PM) AEN:    lol i jus briefly mention u only la..
    (10:04 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:04 PM) Thusness:    ok. :)
    (10:05 PM) AEN:    sounds quite terrible
    (10:05 PM) Thusness:    yes
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    only miracle can help. :P
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    practice metta, compassion and love
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    i tink his mental bad karma is strong
    (10:06 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:06 PM) Thusness:    and take faith.
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    icic
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    ok do i tell him about taking faith part?
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    i didnt mention leh
    (10:07 PM) AEN:    and how to tell him also.. lol
    (10:07 PM) Thusness:    still okie
    (10:07 PM) Thusness:    but hopefully metta, compassion, love can change his karma.
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    this kinda thing has it got to do with brain/neurological disfunctioning or what?
    (10:08 PM) AEN:    like the chemicals, etc
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    i do know...not a psychiatrist. :P
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    don't
    (10:09 PM) Thusness:    heehehe
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:09 PM) AEN:    btw what about the faith part.. what do i tell him
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    taking faith in his case is not about surrendering
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    as i have already told u that surrendering doesn't work for him.
    (10:10 PM) Thusness:    more about changing his luck...ehehe
    (10:10 PM) AEN:    har??
    (10:10 PM) AEN:    wat u mean lol
    (10:11 PM) Thusness:    did u tell him to drop away self-awareness?
    (10:11 PM) AEN:    yea
    (10:12 PM) Thusness:    okie. :)
    (10:12 PM) Thusness:    did u tell him to practice metta, compassion and love?
    (10:13 PM) AEN:    ya
    (10:14 PM) Thusness:    give up the practice of self-awareness
    (10:14 PM) Thusness:    and take faith, believe and practice metta. :)
    (10:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:14 PM) AEN:    how to say about the faith part
    (10:15 PM) Thusness:    that is why i said christianity is a better choice for him now. :)
    (10:15 PM) Thusness:    let the self-awareness, the "AMness" take secondary role.
    (10:15 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:16 PM) Thusness:    forget about the presence.  Practice metta and believe.  Use this two to overcome his problems.
    (10:16 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:16 PM) Thusness:    hopefully that can change his karma.
    (10:17 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:18 PM) AEN:    btw how wld body awareness help as well?
    (10:20 PM) Thusness:    because i told him to drop self-awareness
    (10:20 PM) Thusness:    u told him that already.
    (10:21 PM) AEN:    oo icic
    (10:21 PM) AEN:    so body awareness will lead to dropping self awareness rite?
    (10:22 PM) AEN:    btw u said having faith to change luck
    (10:22 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by that lol
    (10:24 PM) Thusness:    means using the strength of belief and faith to change his luck.
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    oic how does it work
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:24 PM) AEN:    wat u mean by luck
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    as in change the karma?
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    where got how does it work lah
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    this sort of thing where got logic
    (10:25 PM) Thusness:    lol
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    har?? lol icic
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    u mean if u have faith in jesus then ur luck will just change?
    (10:25 PM) AEN:    :P
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    not exactly that. :)
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    but it should be better than now.
    (10:26 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:26 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:27 PM) Thusness:    christians always pray as a group what...
    (10:27 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:27 PM) AEN:    icic..
    (10:34 PM) AEN:    so u mean praying as a group would help?
    (10:35 PM) AEN:    and praying as a group is better than praying alone? or wat
    (10:35 PM) AEN:    lol
    (10:40 PM) Thusness:    it all depends.
    (10:41 PM) Thusness:    it is how sincere the group is.
    (10:41 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    for now, it is difficult to change anything as a result of insight.
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    almost no hope. :P
    (10:42 PM) AEN:    oic..
    (10:42 PM) Thusness:    sad to say that :(
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    u mean even if he reach stage 5? :P
    (10:43 PM) Thusness:    very very difficult for him to reach stage 5.
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:43 PM) AEN:    bcos of depression? lol
    (10:43 PM) Thusness:    2 and above already tough.
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    nope
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    oic he is stage 1 ?
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    bcos of self awareness?
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    nope...just that the condition isn't there.
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    oic
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    he is stage 1 now?
    (10:44 PM) Thusness:    yeah
    (10:44 PM) AEN:    icic
    (10:49 PM) Thusness:    so not all problems are dark nights hor..
    (10:49 PM) AEN:    lol ok
    (10:49 PM) Thusness:    :)
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    actually he should share it with others in the forum.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    if he doesn't say, no one will really know what are his problems.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    and most of them ....ehehe....all got depression.
    (10:52 PM) Thusness:    :P
    (10:53 PM) Thusness:    anyway don't tell him this.

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