ChatGPT: Imagine an image that captures the essence of Nagarjuna's philosophy from the Mulamadhyamikakarika, focusing on the concepts of dependent origination, emptiness, and the freedom from the extremes of existence and non-existence. This image could feature a serene, vast landscape under a twilight sky, symbolizing the transition from dualities into the unity of understanding. In the center, a single, leafless tree stands, representing emptiness and the interconnectedness of all things through its roots and branches, illustrating the principle of dependent origination. The tree is neither fully lit nor completely in shadow, embodying the middle way and the avoidance of extremes. This tranquil scene captures the profound simplicity and depth of Nagarjuna's teachings, emphasizing the peace found in understanding the nature of reality beyond dichotomies.

Here's a simpler image that embodies Nagarjuna's teachings on dependent origination, emptiness, and the middle way, capturing the essence of finding peace beyond the extremes of existence and non-existence.

Recently John Tan asked me to recall when did I realise that 'self' is a learnt and reified concept. Wanted to mention that this is an important point and even in initial anatta breakthrough it is usually unclear at first. It comes as a deepening of insight.

Soh:

At the I AM level, the personal ego is [seen to be] “learnt” and dropped.. but all self/Self is only seen through and dropped at anatta

John Tan:

I don't think this is true. Think deeper, recall.

U must understand that u can enquiry "who am I" and search for "I", u can have experience of "I M" or even experience no-mind, or even realized that "I" does not exist, but still not realized that "I" is a reified concept.

Soh:

Hmm.. “I” as reified concept probably becomes clearer as i contemplated more on emptiness. But even in the initial bahiya sutta realization, there was a recognition that the sense of a seer or a seeing or awareness behind or beside manifestation is a reified concept that is wrong

That it is imagined and abstracted out of manifestation due to false view and then anatta is immediately authenticated as luminous manifestation and realised as always already so. Seeing is only ever the seen and no other seer beside, in the seen only the seen. Like putting on glasses and vision is corrected finally

....

(later)

I just recalled i had a deeper understanding about nine months after anatta

Then i wrote:

The View

Just posted in The Tao Bums a week ago:

I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning. I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment.

I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'.

I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view.

The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'.

The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated.

The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self.

What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of views cause all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views.

----------

Related stuff:

A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti)

....

The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist".

~ Loppon Namdrol (Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith)

At base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive reification of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana:

"Form is similar to a foam,

Feeling is like water bubbles,

Ideation is equivalent with a mirage,

Formations are similar with a banana tree,

Consciousness is like an illusion."

...

"In other words, right view is the beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views."

~ Loppon Namdrol (Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith)

Another related article from an Actualist practitioner: http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/.../conversatio...

Labels: Anatta, Emptiness, View and Path |

- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/07/the-view.html

John Tan:

So u must understand the difference.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

The View

Hello! Welcome to the Awakening to Reality blog. For all new to Awakening to Reality blog, I highly recommend reading the 'Must Read...

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Cao Khánh

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Thank you for sharing. It’s inspiring to me that you continue to learn from John’s pointer throughout all these years and continue to do so earnestly.

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Mr W.A:

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Soh, on retreat I had a great deal of energetic conditioning come up, and as they did, I realized that parts of my mind and body were "coming back online." There was an aha moment where I realized that the "ego" had never been anything more than the patterns in thought and feeling caused by these conditionings. Without them, there just isn't anything there to recognize. Even the very act of identifying is itself just a very strong and deep conditioning... literally something happening on the purely energetic level whose influence is mistaken to be a self. Noticing this dramatically accelerated things. While I still have a lot of conditioning left, it does feel like once this clicked, attention no longer looks for a self to blame, but rather just for the resistance held in the conditioning. This is practical and fruitful to practice. Just wanted to share, as it's a bit of a different way of talking about the sense of self, yet quite congruent with the teachings on right view, and has proven robustly accurate in my experience so far.

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Soh Wei Yu

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That's good.

Even more crucial is to realize the seal of anatta -- in thinking, there is always just thought without thinker. Seeing is, no seer, and so on and so forth. As you said, it just conditioning, and this implies a momentum of its own. Did you think that thought or did it just happen? It just happened, by its own momentum and conditionings. Something triggers you and some anger or fear arise, did you control or will it to occur? Did you choose to feel nasty or pissed off or moody or whatever? It just happened, due to the various conditions and triggers and one's latent tendencies and so on. Purely dependent origination, no agent or controller or thinker is involved here, and even 'ego' is just that patterning, that pure happening. If it were from a 'you', then 'you' would not have chosen to feel shitty/nasty/whatever, or 'you' would simply have chosen to only feel unconditional love, or some other nice mental states and not ruin an otherwise perfect day. But upon clear seeing, its just seen so clearly that mind/thoughts, body, consciousness, all those are not you, not yours, not due to a controller or agent.

Initially if you have had not the direct realization of one's radiance, Pure Presence, it will be skewed to the first stanza of anatta, towards non-doership which is also important, as described above. At this point it's also important realize one's radiance and to recognise whatever thoughts and sensory appearances as the display of one's radiance. Mature realization of anatta reveals both stanzas of anatta to be a seal, to be what is always already so.

So whatever thoughts arise, even conditionings, patternings, there is no need to reject, nor grasp at them, but simply recognise this seal of anatta to be always already the case, the nature of mind/thoughts/appearances. It doesn't matter whether it is a very strong emotion, conditioning, or a very normal or peaceful thought, they are all fuel for contemplating the nature of mind/consciousness/experience. Its nature (as is the nature of all mind/displays) is the union of luminous clarity and emptiness.

Also see:

On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

And

Resolving That Thoughts and Perceptions are Buddha-Mind

Wrote to Mr. P:

I think you are overly judgmental about realised people.

Buddha said only arahats are free from mental illnesses. What did he say? Buddha: "Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of illness. Which two? Bodily illness and mental illness. People are found who can claim to enjoy bodily health for one, two, three, four, and five years; for ten, twenty, thirty, forty, and fifty years; and even for a hundred years and more. But apart from those whose taints have been destroyed, it is hard to find people in the world who can claim to enjoy mental health even for a moment." - Roga Sutta. And as we know, someone without taints is an arahat. The equivalent in Mahayana bhumi system would be the eighth bhumi. Indeed, Acarya Malcolm also said before that bodhisattvas below the eighth bhumi can continue to be quite mentally afflicted. However usually anatta realization (aka stream entry - https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20) will help people who used to have severe depression overcome them, such as the case of Pam Tan https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/03/pam-tans-anatta-realisation-and-purging.html , but there can be outliers and exceptional cases for whatever reasons.

That being said I have never encountered someone I consider to have realised anatta that later developed schizophrenia, although I have known of one case that used to have schizophrenia who later realised anatta (he is not someone who posts often but you can read his story here - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Chad - i am not sure how is his mental conditions now but I presume it should be better)

Also, its interesting though that in the suttas, a sakadagami can still be depressed and die due to starvation from depression (no appetite to eat) from sorrow and loneliness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html#part3

    “Anathapindika had four children, three daughters and a son. Two of the daughters, Little Subhadda and Big Subhadda, were steeped in the Dhamma like their father and had attained stream-entry. And just as they took after their father in spiritual matters, so they did in worldly affairs; they were both happily married.

    But the youngest daughter, Sumana, surpassed even the rest of her family in her deep wisdom. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner.

    She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death.

    She was reborn in the Tusita heaven, the highest form of existence in the sensual realm, and there she had to purge herself of the residue of dependence on other people, her last desire directed outwardly.”

——

I have not met of realized people that get depressed over loneliness. However, having studied the scriptures over a decade ago, I at least know well enough that even if someone commits suicide due to loneliness and depression, I would not rule out the possibility that they have attained up to sakadagami. I only rule out the possibility that they have attained anagami and up. Why?

The scriptures indicate that sakadagami to anagami is a huge shift, because an anagami will not have any such sorrows and grasping at relationships: 

As someone wrote, “As for lifestyle changes upon abandoning the five fetters, this is what the non-returner Ugga has to say: “I had four young wives. I then went to them and said: ‘Sisters, I have undertaken the training rules with celibacy as the fifth. If you want, you can enjoy wealth right here and do merits, or go back to your own family circle, or inform me if you want me to give you over to another man.’ My eldest wife then said to me: ‘Young sir, give me to such and such a man.’ I sent for that man, and with my left hand I took my wife, with my right hand I took the ceremonial vase, and I gave her to that man. But even while giving away my young wife, I don’t recall that any alteration took place in my mind. This is the third astounding and amazing quality found in me.”

Even so, does that mean arahats no longer commit suicide since they no longer have mental afflictions? I leave open the possibility that they can still commit suicide based on extreme physical pain such as in the story of bhikkhu channa. https://suttacentral.net/sn35.87/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false Although arahats no longer create mental suffering, the bodily pain can still remain unbearable, based on what I understand from the above. So if someone commits suicide due to the torture of terminal illness, I know well enough not to discount the possibility that they have attained arahatship, even if real sutta-arahatship is rare these days.

So although I can say “suffering reduced” after realization here, I am not so naive as to claim that all sufferings are eliminated after realization. Unless you are arahat, eighth bhumi or Buddha.

——

Commenting to someone, Soh wrote:

Yeah i dont personally see how i can have that (depression from loneliness) but i dont presume to know the psychological makeup of all beings or realised persons

….

You can have realization and still afflicted in various ways. That is why buddha is wise in categorising the four stages from stream enterer to arahat in terms of ten fetters, there are very specific markers, also the bodhisattva bhumi path is related in terms of gradual elimination of twin obscurations.

But unfortunately there are a lot of poor interpretations in the modern world. Some like daniel ingram dont agree with fetter model and treat arahatship as just anatta. Arahats to him can continue to exhibit behaviours like lust, or anger etc if i understand him right. I dont agree. There are also those who somewhat agree with fetter model but totally misinterpreted them in terms of impersonality to nondual to anatta, making anatta arahatship again whereas in fact it is mere stream entry. We see this issue with kevin shanilec

Also the focus and obsession with eliminating fetters will lead many on the wrong path of merely suppressing without wisdom, that is also possible and common. It is not the path to liberation. Doesnt mean fetters cant be eliminated but without wisdom and very mature level of wisdom, it is the wrong way imo (see: Wisdom Path and Overcoming Inherency - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/03/wisdom-path-and-overcoming-inherency.html)

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Mr. A wrote:

Soh Wei Yu ok but I really don't see how pain could be unbearable when there's no one there to experience it? in consciousness pain is like any other experience

the only way is see it becoming unbearable is if you're attaching a story to it. it's the thoughts that can definitely make it unbearable, the sensation is just what it is

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Soh Wei Yu

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You don't need thoughts or sense of self to be sensitive to pleasure and pain. Have you experienced very painful sensations before? Do sensations just stop being painful if you do not have sense of self?

There are two types of nibbana. The former is when a liberated being is still alive. The latter is post mortem of that liberated being.

Do read this teaching by Buddha:

§ 44. The Nibbana-element {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}

[Alternate translation: Thanissaro]

This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

These two Nibbana-elements were made known

By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:

One is the element seen here and now

With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;

The other, having no residue for the future,

Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,

Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,

They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.

Delighting in the destruction (of craving),

Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

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Soh Wei Yu

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But it is true that when freed from taints or kleshas, painful feelings stop being a cause of mental afflictions and suffering. But there must be a reason for Buddha to tell an arahant to 'bear with the pain', implying that he is experiencing pain that is hard to bear:

Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

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Soh Wei Yu

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On how painful sensations stop being a cause of mental afflictions for arahants:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html

SN 36.6 PTS: S iv 207 CDB ii 1263

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

translated from the Pali by

Nyanaponika Thera

© 1998

Alternate translation: Thanissaro

"An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling?

"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.

"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.

"This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling."

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

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Another person, Mr. P wrote an interesting post (https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/25168006679480758/?__cft__[0]=AZXOHCzRKV_oRTUbyloOyn6eVcCuGMxR-5od5uG_qC7sgyyS3NIXdj_OjzgsirdjKri2stUZAMmQdHpZOdh5S4TjgY4Kfon8OV9xzu8wnIBLtR0vF26R50p0BEVNY_i9wdpTyGE70cjZT3lB6QTi0-6CTDJ3-zSc1IovDxuA6vqZDyEwCt5cMuMDF1JohdgBrdg&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R]-R):

As someone who has at least an inkling of how mental health works let me say that depression and anxiety are NOT a single uniform phenomena. They are a host of behavioral and emotional experiences which are grouped and clustered into diagnostic labels. These labels are nothing but clusters of similar behavioral and emotional problems. So there is no single cause of depression and anxiety. There are likely many 'subtypes' which are really just different diseases which need different treatment.

So why does this matter? Because some subtypes of depression are likely impossible after atr anatta, but others most definitely are possible. If you have one of the subtypes which is incompatible with anatta, such as a type purely due to distorted self-referential thinking then it will vanish. On the other hand if your depression is due to say an undiagnosed autoimmune disease you will still experience low mood and exhuastion. These are just two more extreme examples of course, there are many 'in between' cases as well. Depression can exist without negative reactivity as well.It can be entirely the 'first arrow' of pain which can be activated without any reactivity even at the mind base (the first arrow can occur at all six sense bases, this is well supported by multiple suttas). Even arahants can meet the criteria for minor depression (seriously take a look: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK36406/table/ch1.t1/). Depression in the modern DSM diagnosis is not necessarily equivalent to an afflictive emotion IMO. I have experienced depression where my mood was peaceful overall, but I still would meet diagnostic criteria due to impairment, fatigue, low motivation etc. Strange place to be in, nothings wrong, but can't do anything since mental energy is just absent due to the illness.

And to just give an idea of the different causes of depression. It can be due to:

1. Environmental Factors such as pollution, noisiness, and pollen

2. Negative Self-Talk

3. Undiagnosed Physical Illness

4. Overall Inflammation in the body

5. Sleep disturbances

6. Lack of physical exercise/sedentary lifestyle

7. Trauma which has worked it's way into the 'energy body' (i.e. the way the mind pervades the bodily experience)

8. Other mental illnesses (bipolar, schizopherenia, borderline etc)

9. Genetic and epigenetic factors

10. and probably a ton of other stuff

It would be seriously naive to think anatta will solve all of those distinct causes for everyone.

...

And to be fair, a lot of depression is really just due negative thoughts and beliefs believe it or not. So ATR anatta can solve the problem often. So can efficient methods such as TEAM-CBT which just target those thoughts and beliefs (and resulting behaviors) directly. This is why David Burns can work with many clients and cure depression in a single 3 hour session just by targeting these things (as well as his deep skill gained from 30+ years of practicing as a therapist).

Unfortunately such high speed approaches don't really work for people with additional diagnoses, and probably also fail in cases of physical illness etc. Probably they fail in the same places atr anatta would fail.

9h

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