Awakening to Reality
This blog is about spiritual awakening, maps and stages, the blinding effects of our strong momentum/conditioning (karmic propensities), view, realization, experience, etc. If you're new here, I recommend going through the 'Must Reads' articles (see sidebar). For discussions you are welcome to join the Awakening to Reality Facebook group
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Dogen on Union of Emptiness and Luminosity, Dreams

 

    Soh Wei Yu

    onstoSdperh3fl95135ul70700l4m0i7l4ali794t40uguu8080lci0hhcfh  ·
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    I like how Dogen expresses the union of luminosity and emptiness as illusory vivid appearances:
    The appearance of buddhas and ancestors in the world, being prior to the emergence of any incipient sign, has nothing to do with old, narrow opinions. This accounts for the virtues of buddha-ancestors, as of going beyond the Buddha. Unconcerned with time, the life-span [of buddha-ancestors] is neither prolonged nor momentary, as it is far from the comprehension of ordinary minds.
    The ever turning wheel of the Dharma is also a principle prior to the emergence of any incipient sign; as such, it is an eternal paragon with immeasurably great merit. [Buddha-ancestors] expound this as a dream in a dream. Because they see verification within verification, it is known as expounding a dream in a dream.
    The place where a dream is expounded in a dream is indeed the land and assembly of buddha-ancestors. The buddha-land and buddha-assembly, the ancestral way and ancestral seat, are all verification founded upon verification, hence all are the expounding of a dream in a dream. Upon encountering their utterances and discourses, do not think that these are not of the buddha-assembly; they are the Buddha’s turning the wheel of the Dharma. Because this wheel of the Dharma turns in all directions, the great oceans and Mt. Sumeru, the lands and buddhas are all realized. Such is expounding a dream in a dream, which is prior to all dreams.
    The entire world, crystal-clear everywhere, is a dream; and a dream is all grasses [things] clear and bright. To doubt the dream state is itself to dream; all perplexity is a dream as well. At this very moment, [all are] grasses of the “dream state,” grasses “in” [a dream], grasses“expounding” [a dream], and so on. Even as we study this, the very roots and stalks, leaves and branches, flowers and fruits, lights and hues [of our perception] are all a great dream. Never mistake this, however, for a dreamy state.
    Dogen, Shobogenzo, Muchu-setsumu (Expounding a dream in a dream), Trans. Hee-Jin Kim, Flowers of Emptiness, p.279-280

    10 comments


  • Geovani Geo
    Only perceiving the dream as a dream renders the dream real.

    • Reply
    • 1h

    Soh Wei Yu
    Geovani Geo Where is the dream? Can it be found anywhere?

    • Reply
    • 1h

  • Soh Wei Yu
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../daniel-post-on...
    Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness
    Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness

    • Reply
    • Remove Preview
    • 1h

  • Geovani Geo
    Where is it not?

    • Reply
    • 58m

  • Geovani Geo
    why did you post that link about Anatta? Where is the relation?

    • Reply
    • 56m
    • Edited

  • Geovani Geo
    You are so eager to stand correct that you don't even bother to read/understand what was implied.

    • Reply
    • 47m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    Geovani Geo You didn't get what I mean. I am not pointing at anatta. I am pointing to the emptiness of presence-appearance. Nowhere to be found, like a dream, a reflection, a rainbow, vivid yet unreal, nowhere, unlocatable, unfindable, empty, groundless.

    • Reply
    • 4m
    • Edited

  • Soh Wei Yu
    Related: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/05/rainbow.html
    www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/primordially-unborn.html
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../non-arising-due-to...
    Rainbow
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Rainbow
    Rainbow

    • Reply
    • Remove Preview
    • 2m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    If one establishes presence/appearance as real, one has not realised emptiness even if one has realised anatta.

    • Reply
    • 1m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a 🌈. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
    1. Very "vivid", pellucid
    2. Nothing real
    Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
    - John Tan, 2020

  • Reply
  • 1m
  •  




  • Geovani Geo
    Positing "nothing real" is the same as positing something real

    • Reply
    • 3m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    Geovani Geo No.
    Saying nothing is real is not positing anything.
    "The great 11th Nyingma scholar Rongzom points out that only Madhyamaka accepts that its critical methodology "harms itself", meaning that Madhyamaka uses non-affirming negations to reject the positions of opponents, but does not resort to affirming negations to support a position of its own. Since Madhyamaka, as Buddhapalita states "does not propose the non-existence of existents, but instead rejects claims for the existence of existents", there is no true Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be formulated; likewise there is no false Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be rejected."
    - Acarya Malcolm Smith
  •  
    Geovani Geo
    Right. So you prefer "nothing is real" to "real". The former is more real. 🙂

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    • 29m

  • Geovani Geo
    And I prefer to see the real in the unreal, the true-ness in the false.

    • Reply
    • 27m

  • Geovani Geo
    The fact that dreams are not-tangible, rainbow like, does not render them unreal, but real, exactly as that.

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    • 26m
    • Edited

  • Soh Wei Yu
    If you can pinpoint somewhere and say there the dream is, then it is real. Instead, the vivid shimmering cannot be found anywhere despite vivid appearance, much like a reflection of moon on water. It is just a dependently originating presence that was never 'there' or 'anywhere', unfindable, like a mirage, a reflection, appearing yet hollow without substance. That should be the discovery. There is nothing real, physical, substantial, in any way. This empty and non-arisen nature of presence/appearance is its true nature. Not real, truly there, or worse -- physical, and so on. All the latter substantialist views simply obscure the true nature of presence/appearance and causes subtle grasping and landing or traces.

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    • 24m
    • Edited

  • Soh Wei Yu
    If the reflection of moon on water or rainbow is really "there", then it would not be empty, it would have essence, and it would not arise due to dependent origination. It would stand on its own without the need for causes and conditions. It would not shift or disappear when you look at it a certain other angle or move slightly away or disappear in a few minutes. None of these are true (non-empty, having essence, not dependently originating), instead, we find that the opposite is true (all phenomena are empty, without essence, dependently originating).
    Hence everything is non-arisen like a reflection and a rainbow, and non-arisen, and unreal.
    “Pursuant to the middle view, Tson-kha-pa cites Nagarjuna's Yuk-tisastika and Candrakirti's Yuktisastika-vrtti.
    Nagarjuna:
    What arises in dependence is not born;
    That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality 😊 Buddha).
    Candrakirti:
    (The realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing) is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence." Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not valid.)
    (The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)
    Alas! Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence - at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and the Middle View

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    • 22m
    • Edited

  • Geovani Geo
    Is it REALLY vivid?

    • Reply
    • 20m

  • Geovani Geo
    Or unreally vivid?

    • Reply
    • 19m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    It is conventionally vivid but ultimately unreal (empty).
    Conventional means mere name only, like weather, it does not pertain to a true reality that is findable somewhere.

    • Reply
    • 18m
    • Edited

  • Soh Wei Yu
    Everything, every phenomena, including vivid clarity, can be conventionally true but ultimately empty.

    • Reply
    • 17m

  • Geovani Geo
    You are being extremely theoretical, dialectical to be more precise. There must be a poetical license in these matters. For instance: is "beauty" real or unreal?

    • Reply
    • 14m

  • Geovani Geo
    hein??

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    • See Translation
    • 12m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    In short, you are skewing towards the vivid pellucidity of PCE post anatta. This is not the true nature of consciousness. The true nature of consciousness/appearance is its unreality and emptiness. That is Thusness Stage 6.
    "It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a 🌈. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
    1. Very "vivid", pellucid
    2. Nothing real
    Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
    - John Tan, 2020"
    Ok I got to go rest.. this is not something that can be settled in a debate or argument, so I feel it is rather useless for me to go on and on about this. You really have to investigate with open mindedness into the emptiness teachings.
    Put aside vivid presence post anatta, since those are stabilized. Look into its empty nature. As per the links I sent you above and this: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../putting-aside...
    ....
    [5:23 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The whole universe is just burning light of empty clarity. Its literally like a flame burning due to dependent origination. Its like rainbow but rather than static is dynamically changing and flickering yet without anything arisen or abiding or ceasing. No origination or destination can be found either. I think empty clarity is quite familiar to me by now but somehow this analogy just came up. Changing is also conventional of course
    [5:36 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: There is no end to the depth on the illusionariness of what appears. Focusing on realness will only end up in pce.
    [5:37 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. yeah. Actually pce is already like a natural state here. But its not pce with physicality but empty clarity. Lol
    [5:40 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Do you feel like passing through walls and the whole realm are not in any dimension?
    [5:41 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Thats what i dont understand. Malcolm yesterday related empty clarity to passing through walls. I cannot do it lol except maybe in lucid dreams or what
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Did he say that?
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Interesting
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Lol what another coincidence
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: 🤣🤣🤣
    [5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [5:43 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whole realm are not anywhere... yes
    [5:48 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Keep seeing and tasting what appears are nothing real. Not only there is no sense of observer and observed, sounds, sensations and everything lost their "semantics" and "meanings" and fully absorbed as this empty non-arisen taste.
    [5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: This is unlike just sound, colors...etc
    Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
    Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness

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    • 11m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    6/9/2012 9:30 PM: John: I have told you about the disease of non conceptuality, you need to seek a balance. Otherwise it will limit your progress into phase 6 and especially 7. View must be fully integrated into your practice for you to understand what the maha experience is
    6/9/2012 9:33 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. Maha is like everything is seamlessly interconnected as this very arising right, its not like one thing interacting with other (which would have segmented experience subtly), but that everything is integrated in one interconnected suchness
    6/9/2012 9:40 PM: John: Many do not understand the implication of right view yet. You do not go non conceptual and realize the maha experience of suchness. It is just like how dualistic and inherent view has integrated into our moment to moment of experience. And we feel and behave as if the world is really dual. If a practitioner is simply at "in hearing, only sound and no hearer", he can still get stuck at no self and simply be awed by the grandeur of the pce. This is different from understanding the emptiness of self. Understanding "emptiness" requires you to understand the analogy given by the h2o YouTube and more. It also requires to penetrate into dependent origination by deeper investigation of the nature of experience
    Where does sound go? Is there a "going, coming", is there a "here and there" of sound, is there a voidness where sound return to? Then what does it mean by "no going anywhere" and seeing DO. Then we begin to understand the view of activities and actions and when we see everywhere the seamless integration and total exertions, then maha experience will become more and more obvious and effortless. At this phase there is no self, no dual... All these are already implied...
    There are the content of emptiness
    You should look at few aspects
    1. Seeing inherent object as a mere convention collating ... If a practitioner keeps penetrating whatever arises this way, experience will turn groundless and illusion -like
    2. Seeing clearly in non dual mode but deep in us realize that this is merely a dependent originated manifestation, nothing ultimate and solidly real
    3. You see "no going, no coming, no here, no there" and penetrate deeply into the seamless interpenetration of activities leading to the maha experience
    Until this empty nature of whatever arises is intuited in our moment to moment of experience, you can then feel the total exertion and self liberating aspect of experience”

    • Reply
    • 9m

  • Geovani Geo
    You are tripping in your reveries... To fast to qualify, to classify.
    I am asking you a simple question - not making a statement: is "beauty" real or unreal?

    • Reply
    • 9m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    The radiance and directness and gapless nondual taste of all luminous aggregates is just the initial anatta. It is not the mature realisation and taste of emptiness. The initial anatta can be skewed towards the radiance of PCE (pure consciousness experience) in foreground aggregates.
    “[7:49 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I think non-arisen, non-inherentness, illusoriness emptiness have sunk quite deeply in me already.
    [8:00 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. any triggers? Or just contemplating mmk (mulamadhyamikakarika)
    [8:02 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I dunno but it is more experiential taste. And the understanding of it is clear and firmed. Radiance is overshadowed by such realization and understanding. I am letting it sinks slow and deep.
    [8:04 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What do you mean by radiance is overshadowed, not as important?
    [8:21 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: Means illusionariness overshadowed radiance”
    http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../advice-for...
    Advice for Taiyaki
    Also see:
    +A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
    Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
    Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
    "There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
    1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
    2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
    3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.
    4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.
    5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
    6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".
    7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.
    8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
    9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."
    ---------
    On another occasion, Thusness wrote (not to Taiyaki):
    ...Like after anatta, as I have said many times the sense of externality and physicality can still be very strong. My deconstruction process of "externality" and "physicality" is actually based few questions: 1. Why is mind which is "mental" is able to "interact" with something "physical"? 2. Why does consciousness need conditions for its arising? 3. What is interaction? All these questions help stabilized my experiences when I penetrated them in my own way.
    Illusion like realization (arose) when I contemplated "hereness" and "nowness" until my mind was able to intuit the logic behind all these, then experience becomes stable. However one can enter by experience to have a taste of it...
    Labels: Anatta, Dropping, Emptiness, Maha |
    Advice for Taiyaki
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Advice for Taiyaki
    Advice for Taiyaki

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    • 6m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    "is "beauty" real or unreal?"
    I have answered you umpteen times but you refuse to see it. Beauty is unreal, and not only is beauty unreal, even nirvana is unreal. If there is anything higher than nirvana, it too is unreal. In short, nothing is real.

    • Reply
    • 5m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    The Buddha already said,
    "Nirvāṇa is an illusion. Even if there is anything greater than Nirvāṇa, that too will be only an illusion."

    • Reply
    • 4m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-concept-of...
    The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras
    The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras

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    • 4m

  • Soh Wei Yu
    ok gtg good night

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  • 4m
  • Soh Wei Yu
    Geovani Geo You're just talking about non conceptual experience. Everybody down to an ant has non conceptual experience, because our five sense consciousness are always non conceptual. It can be followed up by a conceptual thought, but the five sense consciousness in themselves are non conceptual.
    It is also useless. It is useless to have a non conceptual five sense consciousness (all ignorant sentient beings are already having it anyway). It is also useless to have a non conceptual experience that you call "beauty". Why useless? It is not liberating, it has never gotten anyone out of samsara.
    Likewise even if after anatta one does not realise the emptiness and unreality of even the most beautiful PCE, then one still has not overcome deeply latent delusions.
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Speaking about Actual Freedom teachings, John Tan wrote before,
    John Tan wrote on 24 March 2019 to me,
    “Not going back. If you want to write a guide, write with sincerity. If you write with a sincere heart, I am sure people will benefit as those are genuine insights leading to effortlessness of instant presence. However, never claim or even suggest the phases of insight are end of journey, that is very naive, untrue and misleading.
    As for powerful vivid radiance, they are normal if you have spent quality time post your anatta insight. When the center is gone, externally you will feel like a ball of radiance appearing as the world. Internally, energetic radiance will beam through your body cells, vibrating on your crown, your face, dancing as pulsation of your flowing blood, that is the time you should seriously look into energy practice. If you are not interested in energy practice, just learn deep rhythmic abdominal breathing until a state of no mind into deep release, it will help to contain and regulate and the powerful energetic radiance.
    As for AF, the immolation of Self/self is simply the deconstruction of mental construct of self as a center background. Richard has carried it far enough to reach total exertion which he called "realizing one's destiny" if I remember correctly. However the same cause reifying the background is now manifesting in the foreground as the "actual world", therefore there is no thorough liberation. Imo from the perspective of self immolation, he has carried it further than you and his essays can definitely help to guide you. It does seems final in a pseudo sense.
    For you, it will be difficult to find a teacher but if you humble yourself, everyone, every event is your teacher. When I tell you to differentiate experience from realization and established firmly on the view as your guide, the purpose is not for you to go around stereotyping people, it is strictly for your own development.
    Lastly due to the Awakening to Reality group and your relentless advertisement, I have been receiving messages. I do not want to mislead people and I am not a spiritual teacher and I do not wish to develop it into a cultic group🤣. As for me, practice is ongoing and there is no finality. So I will continue my never ending journey. You can WhatsApp me just don't message me who is at what stage… lol.”
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    • 4m
        • Soh Wei Yu
          What liberates is not non conceptual experience. What liberates is prajna, the wisdom that realizes emptiness directly. Twofold emptiness -- both the self/Self, and also all phenomena. Anatta is just the first part. Wisdom of dependent origination and emptiness is even more vital after that, else one simply gets stuck with the grandeur of the radiance of "actual world" being reified as real (like Actual Freedom teachings)
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The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version

I would like to announce two things: 1) The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide by Nafis Rahman:  https://app.box.com/s/zc0suu4dil01xbgirm2r...

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