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I like how Dogen expresses the union of luminosity and emptiness as illusory vivid appearances:
The appearance of buddhas and ancestors in the world, being prior to the emergence of any incipient sign, has nothing to do with old, narrow opinions. This accounts for the virtues of buddha-ancestors, as of going beyond the Buddha. Unconcerned with time, the life-span [of buddha-ancestors] is neither prolonged nor momentary, as it is far from the comprehension of ordinary minds.
The ever turning wheel of the Dharma is also a principle prior to the emergence of any incipient sign; as such, it is an eternal paragon with immeasurably great merit. [Buddha-ancestors] expound this as a dream in a dream. Because they see verification within verification, it is known as expounding a dream in a dream.
The place where a dream is expounded in a dream is indeed the land and assembly of buddha-ancestors. The buddha-land and buddha-assembly, the ancestral way and ancestral seat, are all verification founded upon verification, hence all are the expounding of a dream in a dream. Upon encountering their utterances and discourses, do not think that these are not of the buddha-assembly; they are the Buddha’s turning the wheel of the Dharma. Because this wheel of the Dharma turns in all directions, the great oceans and Mt. Sumeru, the lands and buddhas are all realized. Such is expounding a dream in a dream, which is prior to all dreams.
The entire world, crystal-clear everywhere, is a dream; and a dream is all grasses [things] clear and bright. To doubt the dream state is itself to dream; all perplexity is a dream as well. At this very moment, [all are] grasses of the “dream state,” grasses “in” [a dream], grasses“expounding” [a dream], and so on. Even as we study this, the very roots and stalks, leaves and branches, flowers and fruits, lights and hues [of our perception] are all a great dream. Never mistake this, however, for a dreamy state.
Dogen, Shobogenzo, Muchu-setsumu (Expounding a dream in a dream), Trans. Hee-Jin Kim, Flowers of Emptiness, p.279-280
10 comments
Geovani Geo
Only perceiving the dream as a dream renders the dream real.
Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo Where is the dream? Can it be found anywhere?
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Daniel's Post on Anatta/Emptiness
Geovani Geo
Where is it not?
Geovani Geo
why did you post that link about Anatta? Where is the relation?
Geovani Geo
You are so eager to stand correct that you don't even bother to read/understand what was implied.
Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo
You didn't get what I mean. I am not pointing at anatta. I am pointing
to the emptiness of presence-appearance. Nowhere to be found, like a
dream, a reflection, a rainbow, vivid yet unreal, nowhere, unlocatable,
unfindable, empty, groundless.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Rainbow
Soh Wei Yu
If one establishes presence/appearance as real, one has not realised emptiness even if one has realised anatta.
Soh Wei Yu
It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a 
. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important. 1. Very "vivid", pellucid
2. Nothing real
Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
- John Tan, 2020
Geovani Geo
Positing "nothing real" is the same as positing something real
Soh Wei Yu
Geovani Geo No.
Saying nothing is real is not positing anything.
"The
great 11th Nyingma scholar Rongzom points out that only Madhyamaka
accepts that its critical methodology "harms itself", meaning that
Madhyamaka uses non-affirming negations to reject the positions of
opponents, but does not resort to affirming negations to support a
position of its own. Since Madhyamaka, as Buddhapalita states "does not
propose the non-existence of existents, but instead rejects claims for
the existence of existents", there is no true Madhyamaka position since
there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be
formulated; likewise there is no false Madhyamaka position since there
is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be
rejected."
- Acarya Malcolm Smith
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Geovani Geo
Right. So you prefer "nothing is real" to "real". The former is more real. 
Geovani Geo
And I prefer to see the real in the unreal, the true-ness in the false.
Geovani Geo
The fact that dreams are not-tangible, rainbow like, does not render them unreal, but real, exactly as that.
Soh Wei Yu
If
you can pinpoint somewhere and say there the dream is, then it is real.
Instead, the vivid shimmering cannot be found anywhere despite vivid
appearance, much like a reflection of moon on water. It is just a
dependently originating presence that was never
'there' or 'anywhere', unfindable, like a mirage, a reflection,
appearing yet hollow without substance. That should be the discovery.
There is nothing real, physical, substantial, in any way. This empty and
non-arisen nature of presence/appearance is its true nature. Not real,
truly there, or worse -- physical, and so on. All the latter
substantialist views simply obscure the true nature of
presence/appearance and causes subtle grasping and landing or traces.
Soh Wei Yu
If
the reflection of moon on water or rainbow is really "there", then it
would not be empty, it would have essence, and it would not arise due to
dependent origination. It would stand on its own without the need for
causes and conditions. It would not shift or
disappear when you look at it a certain other angle or move slightly
away or disappear in a few minutes. None of these are true (non-empty,
having essence, not dependently originating), instead, we find that the
opposite is true (all phenomena are empty, without essence, dependently
originating).
Hence everything is non-arisen like a reflection and a rainbow, and non-arisen, and unreal.
“Pursuant to the middle view, Tson-kha-pa cites Nagarjuna's Yuk-tisastika and Candrakirti's Yuktisastika-vrtti.
Nagarjuna:
What arises in dependence is not born;
That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality 
Buddha).
Buddha).Candrakirti:
(The
realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in
dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is
not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing)
is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence."
Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not
valid.)
(The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)
Alas!
Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that
is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the
manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence
- at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt
from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and
the Middle View
Geovani Geo
Is it REALLY vivid?
Geovani Geo
Or unreally vivid?
Soh Wei Yu
It is conventionally vivid but ultimately unreal (empty).
Conventional means mere name only, like weather, it does not pertain to a true reality that is findable somewhere.
Soh Wei Yu
Everything, every phenomena, including vivid clarity, can be conventionally true but ultimately empty.
Geovani Geo
You
are being extremely theoretical, dialectical to be more precise. There
must be a poetical license in these matters. For instance: is "beauty"
real or unreal?
Geovani Geo
hein??
Soh Wei Yu
In
short, you are skewing towards the vivid pellucidity of PCE post
anatta. This is not the true nature of consciousness. The true nature of
consciousness/appearance is its unreality and emptiness. That is
Thusness Stage 6.
"It is not only realising mere appearances r just one's radiance clarity but empty clarity is like that...like a . Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.
. Beautiful and clearly appears, but nothing "there" at all. These 2 aspects r very important.1. Very "vivid", pellucid
2. Nothing real
Tasting either one will not trigger the "aha" realization.
- John Tan, 2020"
Ok
I got to go rest.. this is not something that can be settled in a
debate or argument, so I feel it is rather useless for me to go on and
on about this. You really have to investigate with open mindedness into
the emptiness teachings.
Put
aside vivid presence post anatta, since those are stabilized. Look into
its empty nature. As per the links I sent you above and this: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../putting-aside...
....
[5:23
PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The whole universe is just burning light of
empty clarity. Its literally like a flame burning due to dependent
origination. Its like rainbow but rather than static is dynamically
changing and flickering yet without anything arisen or abiding or
ceasing. No origination or destination can be found either. I think
empty clarity is quite familiar to me by now but somehow this analogy
just came up. Changing is also conventional of course
[5:36
PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: There is no end to the depth on the
illusionariness of what appears. Focusing on realness will only end up
in pce.
[5:37 PM,
11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. yeah. Actually pce is already like a
natural state here. But its not pce with physicality but empty clarity.
Lol
[5:40 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Do you feel like passing through walls and the whole realm are not in any dimension?
[5:41
PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Thats what i dont understand. Malcolm
yesterday related empty clarity to passing through walls. I cannot do it
lol except maybe in lucid dreams or what
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Did he say that?
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Interesting
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Lol what another coincidence
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: 
[5:42 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:43 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whole realm are not anywhere... yes
[5:48
PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Keep seeing and tasting what appears are
nothing real. Not only there is no sense of observer and observed,
sounds, sensations and everything lost their "semantics" and "meanings"
and fully absorbed as this empty non-arisen taste.
[5:49 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: This is unlike just sound, colors...etc
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness
Soh Wei Yu
6/9/2012
9:30 PM: John: I have told you about the disease of non conceptuality,
you need to seek a balance. Otherwise it will limit your progress into
phase 6 and especially 7. View must be fully integrated into your
practice for you to understand what the maha experience is
6/9/2012
9:33 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. Maha is like everything is seamlessly
interconnected as this very arising right, its not like one thing
interacting with other (which would have segmented experience subtly),
but that everything is integrated in one interconnected suchness
6/9/2012
9:40 PM: John: Many do not understand the implication of right view
yet. You do not go non conceptual and realize the maha experience of
suchness. It is just like how dualistic and inherent view has integrated
into our moment to moment of experience. And we feel and behave as if
the world is really dual. If a practitioner is simply at "in hearing,
only sound and no hearer", he can still get stuck at no self and simply
be awed by the grandeur of the pce. This is different from understanding
the emptiness of self. Understanding "emptiness" requires you to
understand the analogy given by the h2o YouTube and more. It also
requires to penetrate into dependent origination by deeper investigation
of the nature of experience
Where
does sound go? Is there a "going, coming", is there a "here and there"
of sound, is there a voidness where sound return to? Then what does it
mean by "no going anywhere" and seeing DO. Then we begin to understand
the view of activities and actions and when we see everywhere the
seamless integration and total exertions, then maha experience will
become more and more obvious and effortless. At this phase there is no
self, no dual... All these are already implied...
There are the content of emptiness
You should look at few aspects
1.
Seeing inherent object as a mere convention collating ... If a
practitioner keeps penetrating whatever arises this way, experience will
turn groundless and illusion -like
2.
Seeing clearly in non dual mode but deep in us realize that this is
merely a dependent originated manifestation, nothing ultimate and
solidly real
3.
You see "no going, no coming, no here, no there" and penetrate deeply
into the seamless interpenetration of activities leading to the maha
experience
Until
this empty nature of whatever arises is intuited in our moment to
moment of experience, you can then feel the total exertion and self
liberating aspect of experience”
Geovani Geo
You are tripping in your reveries... To fast to qualify, to classify.
I am asking you a simple question - not making a statement: is "beauty" real or unreal?
Soh Wei Yu
“[7:49
PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I think non-arisen, non-inherentness,
illusoriness emptiness have sunk quite deeply in me already.
[8:00 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. any triggers? Or just contemplating mmk (mulamadhyamikakarika)
[8:02
PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: I dunno but it is more experiential taste. And
the understanding of it is clear and firmed. Radiance is overshadowed
by such realization and understanding. I am letting it sinks slow and
deep.
[8:04 PM, 4/17/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. What do you mean by radiance is overshadowed, not as important?
[8:21 PM, 4/17/2021] John Tan: Means illusionariness overshadowed radiance”
Advice for Taiyaki
Also see:
+A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
Last
year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a.
Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual
and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
1.
First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an
essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
2.
First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like
experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become
vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
3.
First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an
'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will
resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor
one's progress for a few months.
4.
Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but
take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same
"emptiness view" of Self/self.
5.
From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by
"thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
6.
"Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body
constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to
the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct
"physical".
7.
There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy,
luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of
energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing
'mental constructs'.
8.
Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and
non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
9.
No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something,
no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid
shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless
unobstructed-interpenetration."
---------
On another occasion, Thusness wrote (not to Taiyaki):
...Like
after anatta, as I have said many times the sense of externality and
physicality can still be very strong. My deconstruction process of
"externality" and "physicality" is actually based few questions: 1. Why
is mind which is "mental" is able to "interact" with something
"physical"? 2. Why does consciousness need conditions for its arising?
3. What is interaction? All these questions help stabilized my
experiences when I penetrated them in my own way.
Illusion
like realization (arose) when I contemplated "hereness" and "nowness"
until my mind was able to intuit the logic behind all these, then
experience becomes stable. However one can enter by experience to have a
taste of it...
Labels: Anatta, Dropping, Emptiness, Maha |
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Advice for Taiyaki
Soh Wei Yu
"is "beauty" real or unreal?"
I
have answered you umpteen times but you refuse to see it. Beauty is
unreal, and not only is beauty unreal, even nirvana is unreal. If there
is anything higher than nirvana, it too is unreal. In short, nothing is
real.
Soh Wei Yu
The Buddha already said,
"Nirvāṇa is an illusion. Even if there is anything greater than Nirvāṇa, that too will be only an illusion."
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Concept of Sunyata in Mahayana Sutras
Soh Wei Yu
ok gtg good night
