https://www.facebook.com/groups/SotoZenGlobal/posts/10160528895910692/

 

See my replies (by Soh Wei Yu):


    I don't mean to be quarrelsome here at all but I do have a concern with the bodhisattva path. The Buddha taught that enlightenment ended rebirth. The stream enterer has at the most 7 lives before parinirvana. The Buddha himself entered nirvana at the end of his life. So how can a bodhisattva who is aiming at enlightenment remain in samsara until it is empty if she gets enlightened and cuts off rebirth. Seems like a big problem.

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  • Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger
    The Buddha didn't teach that.


    Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
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    Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
    Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening


  • Elliot Miller
    Author
    Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger "The Pali Canon recognizes four levels of Awakening, the first of which is called stream entry. This gains its name from the fact that a person who has attained this level has entered the "stream" flowing inevitably to nibbana. He/she is guaranteed to achieve full awakening within seven lifetimes at most, and in the interim will not be reborn in any of the lower realms." - Thanissaro Bhikkhu


    Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger
    Elliot Miller this is not specifically taught in Soto Zen Buddhism, and in fact there is no belief in reincarnation that is required. We are already enlightened, we just need to realize that. And it can be a continual, iterative process. The Bodhisattva intentionally remains until all sentient beings are free. That is the intent, anyway.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger Many Soto Zen Buddhists nowadays do not believe in rebirth as they are influenced by modern materialist views, however it is clear that Dogen took rebirth and karma quite literally.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Astus shared:
    Dogen talks directly and indirectly about karma and rebirth. Some examples:
    In the Shobogenzo (tr. Nishijima-Cross, Numata edition):
    vol 1
    ch9, Keisei-sanshiki (p. 118), on the power of confession cleansing past karma
    ch10, Shoaku-makusa, the entire chapter about retribution and precepts
    ch12, Kesa-kudoku (p. 159), on the power of kesa/kashaya cleansing karma
    ch14, Sansuigyo (p. 221), different beings see in different ways
    vol 4
    ch90, Shizen-biku (p. 272), criticises Kongzi and Laozi for their ignorance of past lives
    ch84, Sanji-no-go, the whole chapter is about the karma in three times
    In the Eihei Koroku (tr. Leighton-Okumura):
    4.275 (p264); 5.383 (p340) fruit of past lives
    5.386 (p344) "If people who study Buddha Dharma have no genuine faith or true mindfulness, they will certainly dispense with and ignore [the law of] causality."
    6.437 (p392) denying karma is wrong view, zazen with wrong view is useless
    7.485 (p430); 7.517 (p460) 3 kinds of karma
    7.504 (p450) "Tathagatas never go beyond clarifying cause and effect"
    7.510 (p454) "Students of the way cannot dismiss cause and effect. If you discard cause and effect, you will ultimately deviate from practice-realization."
    7.524 (p466) rebirth of relatives by the merit of one's leaving home


  • Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger
    Soh Wei Yu rebirth doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as reincarnation. It doesn't necessarily mean a direct one to one preservation of an individual personality or soul. Especially since Buddhism teaches no soul. Again, Zen Buddhism doesn't require you to believe anything.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger Yes no learnt Buddhist in any of the three traditions (Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana) believe that a soul is reincarnated. But also, all three traditions do take rebirth and karma without soul quite literally. There is, conventionally speaking, past lives and karma. To reject these would constitute what Buddha calls "wrong view".
    It does not require a soul or agent however.
    “Empty phenomena ~ Nagarjuna
    All beings consist of causes and effects,
    In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all.
    From phenomena which are exclusively empty,
    There arise only empty phenomena.
    All things are devoid of any ‘I’ or ‘mine’.
    Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal,
    A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
    So also with the continuation of the aggregates —
    The wise should know they are not transferred.
    Nagarjuna
    The Heart of Dependent Origination, verse 4 & 5”
    Buddhaghosha:
    "Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
    The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
    Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
    The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."
    No doer of the deeds is found,
    No one who ever reaps their fruits,
    Empty phenomena roll on,
    This view alone is right and true.
    No god, no Brahma, may be called,
    The maker of this wheel of life,
    Empty phenomena roll on,
    Dependent on conditions all." Visuddhimagga XIX.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    In the ultimate sense, there do not even exist such things as
    mental states, i.e. stationary things. Feeling, perception,
    consciousness, etc., are in reality mere passing processes of feeling,
    perceiving, becoming conscious, etc., within which and outside of
    which no separate or permanent entity lies hidden.
    Thus a real understanding of the Buddha's doctrine of kamma and
    rebirth is possible only to one who has caught a glimpse of the
    egoless nature, or //anattata//, and of the conditionality, or
    //idappaccayata//, of all phenomena of existence. Therefore it is said
    in the //Visuddhimagga// (Chap. XIX):
    Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple
    sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the
    concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the
    volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no
    recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is
    well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,
    when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or
    with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the
    result.
    No doer of the deeds is found,
    No one who ever reaps their fruits;
    Empty phenomena roll on:
    This only is the correct view.
    And while the deeds and their results
    Roll on and on, conditioned all,
    There is no first beginning found,
    Just as it is with seed and tree. ...
    No god, no Brahma, can be called
    The maker of this wheel of life:
    Empty phenomena roll on,
    Dependent on conditions all.
    In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:
    "What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"
    "A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."
    "But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical
    combination as this present one?"
    "No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces
    kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and
    through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be
    born."
    FUNDAMENTALS OF BUDDHISM
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    FUNDAMENTALS OF BUDDHISM
    FUNDAMENTALS OF BUDDHISM

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  • Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger
    Soh Wei Yu okay, so how does all of this relate to the original question about the Bodhisattva vow not making sense?


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Cynthia Wooten Wolfenbarger His question presumes that full enlightenment leads to the cessation of mindstream in parinirvana, so one cannot continue the Bodhisattva vow of helping beings after passing away from this life.
    I answered his query below.
    "In Mahayana sutras, Buddhas eventually rouse sravaka arahants from cessation to continue their path to Buddhahood, and Buddhas appear to enter parinirvana but actually continue to emanate and help suffering sentient beings as long as there is a single sentient being left in the universe. Their mindstreams do not actually cease, only delusions and afflictions cease.
    1st Bhumi [Mahayana stream entry] bodhisattvas do cut off the cause for rebirth in the lower realms and self-views like the sravaka stream entrant, and an 8th Bhumi bodhisattvas who has overcome all mental afflictions like a sravaka arahant do cut off uncontrolled cyclic rebirths, but it is not the same as the cessation of mindstream.
    It is a different understanding from Theravada which relies only on Pali canon suttas and the Sravakayana commentaries."














  • Adam Schwartz
    Who’s problem is it?


  • Dominick Fontana
    I've had the same thought. 🤔 I take, Buddha's, words to heart when he says, (roughly paraphrasing) "don't believe what I say, until, you've experienced it yourself".


  • Soh Wei Yu
    In Mahayana sutras, Buddhas eventually rouse sravaka arahants from cessation to continue their path to Buddhahood, and Buddhas appear to enter parinirvana but actually continue to emanate and help suffering sentient beings as long as there is a single sentient being left in the universe. Their mindstreams do not actually cease, only delusions and afflictions cease.
    1st Bhumi [Mahayana stream entry] bodhisattvas do cut off the cause for rebirth in the lower realms and self-views like the sravaka stream entrant, and an 8th Bhumi bodhisattvas who has overcome all mental afflictions like a sravaka arahant do cut off uncontrolled cyclic rebirths, but it is not the same as the cessation of mindstream.
    It is a different understanding from Theravada which relies only on Pali canon suttas and the Sravakayana commentaries.

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