“Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:08pm UTC+08
Greg Goode Soh, this description according to Advaita would not be
something that happens in deep sleep, but in a subtle dream, "I have
experienced Clear Light in a dreamless sleep before many times. It was pure
presence/beingness and bliss without consciousness of any sort of object (or
subject), and no other sensory or mental experiences whatsoever." Note the
emphasis on "other .. experiences." So this was itself an experience.
According to Advaita, it may seem too uneventful to be a dream, so we like to
think of it as deep sleep. Even Ken Wilber has misinterpreted the deep sleep
teachings by saying that he had developed a witness that was able to witness
deep sleep. But in the Direct Path, deep sleep itself is the witness. It is
awareness with no objects whatsoever. So the appearance of clear light,
according to those teachings, is sufficient to make it a dream. A helpful one
to be sure, but a dream. From the perspective of the Advaita teachings on deep
sleep, not even clear light or I AM or any imputation or phenomenon appears, no
matter how impressive or subtle. What is instructive about deep sleep is that
there is no arising whatsoever, yet awareness ... IS. When we try to look back
on deep sleep, (we can't literally look back on it - this is a provisional
teaching only), but when we look back at it, we are led to several significant
insights: 1. There was no evidence of mind, body or world. 2. Yes I was not
absent. That is, I didn't disappear, only to reappear when I woke up. 3. I
slept happily. It is taught in the direct path as an alternative to the need to
develop nirvikalpa samadhi. Faster and more direct..... 2 minutes ago · Like
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:08pm UTC+08
what do you think about this
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08
to me this is like an inferential realization
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08
lol
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:09pm UTC+08
and not exactly right since the 'I was not absent' is merely an
imputation
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08
I agree with what Greg said.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08
i wrote back:
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:17pm UTC+08
To me that is like an inferential understanding. A direct realization
that 'Awareness IS' is direct realization... no doubt at all, but pure
apprehension of Awareness as the essence of mind... without any inference at
all, only a direct non-conceptual certainty. But to see it as changeless Self
throughout all states is an imputation and precisely is self-view. It is a
'view' or 'understanding' derived from an inherent view and subtle referencing.
As I was telling Jax, I differentiate I AM realization with I AM imputation. I
AM imputation is a result of referencing. During my I AM days I also had the
view that Awareness is changeless throughout waking, dream and deep sleep. That
sort of view is seen through in anatta. As I wrote based on what Thusness wrote
back in 2007: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/07/spell-of-karmic-propensities.html
...So when momentum is in action, we cannot help but react with our karmic
patterns. If we were to ask, "If you lost your shoe, are you still
you?" or "If you lost your hands, do you still exist?". It
almost seems certain to say "Yes, of course I am still I." because we
always assumed there is a truly existing "Self" experiencing changes.
This momentum can continue even after experiences of transcendental Presence,
and distorting the experience. Dharma Dan calls this the "fundamental knot
of perception"...
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08
In fact you must have deep sleep as I told u
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08
ic.. but isnt that 'I am still there in deep sleep' a result of
inference?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08
instead of direct realization?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:18pm UTC+08
its like saying 'if you lost your shoes are you still u'
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08
i dont see any difference.. that sort of derived understanding
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08
That is because you infer
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:19pm UTC+08
U are not seeing sleep and waking as one
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08
i mean this: but when we look back at it, we are led to several significant
insights: 1. There was no evidence of mind, body or world. 2. Yes I was not
absent. That is, I didn't disappear, only to reappear when I woke up. 3. I
slept happily.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08
greg said that
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08
isnt that inference?
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:20pm UTC+08
It is like causes and conditions and awareness not understood as front
and back of the same palm
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:21pm UTC+08
I do not see Deep sleep as the Awareness itself but the gist is quite
the same.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:22pm UTC+08
i dun understand you.. what exactly are you agreeing with greg lol
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:23pm UTC+08
isnt greg saying that by inference you see that "I" remains
unchanged throughout sleep?
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:23pm UTC+08
Lets say how do you know you will not die the next moment now?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08
but i do agree that awareness is not a witness so of course it is not a
witness of deep sleep... in deep sleep just deep sleep
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08
is this what you mean?
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08
Answer me first?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08
i can't know for sure i wont die next moment
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:24pm UTC+08
i can only guess
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:25pm UTC+08
How do you know you have to breathe out after you breathe in?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:25pm UTC+08
hmm... this is like a spontaneous reflex..
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:26pm UTC+08
Have you play table tennis before?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08
yea
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08
Good?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08
no not good lol
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:27pm UTC+08
Lol... Ok...there is knowledge being one with the flow
U can say you infer. Then you just missed the point. It is the knowledge
that arises from being the flow
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:30pm UTC+08
ic.. so you mean one can have knowledge with regards to deep sleep like
that?
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:30pm UTC+08
So deep sleep and waking state to you is a form of inference but for one
that is in the flow...there are an inseparable whole phase
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08
So from the freeness and clarity they understand deep sleep
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08
Greg Goode Soh, what post are you answering here? Deep sleep? "But
to see it as changeless Self throughout all states is an imputation and
precisely is self-view. " It is not at all like this in Advaita. The
states are themselves deconstructed. In direct experience one finds nothing other
than awareness. And even that is not found like we find a penny on the floor.
Not objectively, but in a mystical combination of knowing and being. Of course
anatta is going to differ from this!!!!! No surprise. It differs from anatta
too.
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08
oic..
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:31pm UTC+08
u mean is like from the after effects of sleep?
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:32pm UTC+08
Yes but you are seeing it as an after effect using thought
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:33pm UTC+08
Just like for some ancient tribe life, death and afterlife are one
seamless whole...so it means something very different
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:34pm UTC+08
To them it is like walking out to your dad's room
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:35pm UTC+08
But because your mind sees it as something very distinct you see it
differently
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:36pm UTC+08
For awareness practice, awareness is maintained throughout. That is the
state free of object and that is what it is supposed to b.
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
Awareness with object in the waking state is non-dual and objectless is
supposed to be just like deep sleep. Get it?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
ic.. but is what greg said deriving understanding from being one with
the flow? i wonder if he's just inferring a changeless self
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
also greg isnt saying awareness has to be maintained
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
in fact he is saying from this understanding, you no longer need to
maintain awareness
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
or maintain samadhi or practice awareness in sleep
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
bcos you realize deep sleep is already awareness
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:37pm UTC+08
Not about maintaining. Anyway nvm...u can get the gist that is enough. If
you don't understand even after explaining then it becomes a form of useless
argument. Greg is telling you something important in advaita
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:40pm UTC+08
It is the same thing gist if I tell you from the perspective of anatta
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:42pm UTC+08
so you mean what greg is saying is that waking deep sleep is an
inseparable whole? as awareness
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:44pm UTC+08
Yes. Just like what is sleep to you from the perspective of anatta and
DO?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:45pm UTC+08
an activity.. process/flow..
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:45pm UTC+08
Meaning?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:46pm UTC+08
means like its the experience being exerted with every conditions that
led to it. like you said playing table tennis or breathing
John TanFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:49pm UTC+08
Life is the total activity of life. Death is the total activity of death.
Sleep is the total activity of sleep. This is the total training and practice. How
is one to know he is on the right track in practice?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:52pm UTC+08
total transcendence of self in total activity? How different is it from
anatta?
Soh Wei YuFriday, February 14, 2014 at 11:55pm UTC+08
in anatta its just pure sensations.. in total exertion its like you see
the whole process activity self-arising seamlessly.. breathing is not just
breathing but the whole body and environment etc
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:04am UTC+08
What I am saying is unless you are leaving trace, it is anatta. So life
and death, sleep and practice, breathing in and breathing out...all are same
practice, same view, same truth, same fruition. Therefore non-dual awareness in
objectless state is just as what Greg said...like in deep sleep
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:09am UTC+08
i see..
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:10am UTC+08
Once it becomes an integrated practice then it becomes seamless. Just
like if you practice anatta throughout the 3 states it is different...get it. When
you do not oscillate between inherent and anatta state, then it is seamless in
the 3 states ... Equality
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:13am UTC+08
ic.. hmm now i think greg is saying is that everything is awareness...
so there is no need to maintain a state treated as awareness in sleep.. as the
sleep itself is nondual awareness
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:13am UTC+08
Yes. Objectless state is just like that...no maintenance. In fact that
is how I practice. In the past before I enter into Buddhism. Mind agree with
what Greg said about Ken Wilber. And I think we discussed this before...when
longchen asked about it...
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:16am UTC+08
mind agree ? isit
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:17am UTC+08
I told both of you not to maintain awareness in deep sleep and treat
deep sleep as deepest samadhi...if I am not wrong
oic..
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:18am UTC+08
Becoz Simpo think what Ken Wilber said is true but I told him not to
practice that way...
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:18am UTC+08
But forgotten...lol too long
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:19am UTC+08
I think you replied longchen saying that I said that...like in sleeping,
sleep! But too long already
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08
searching now :P
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08
Or was it someone else? Lol
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:21am UTC+08
jonls right
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:22am UTC+08
I thought it was Simpo? you can't rem?
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:23am UTC+08
Originally posted by JonLS: An innocent mind In the sense of original
innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is quiescent (quiet,
still, surrendered). This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's
true nature. It is no longer making efforts to "know" or
"understand" something. Instead, there is resting in one's true
nature, in being. This is about letting go of the need to know. And trusting.
And just being. True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance. you replied: To
find one that can completely surrender and totally be is extremely rare. Not
even one in millions. Yet in deep sleep, all has to let go. How can one be
denied such a precious state of beingness. For a person that has experienced
no-self (non-duality), deep sleep is even more important. It is the completion
of a full cycle of non-duality and natural beingness. But this may not be the
case for one that clings to the "Eternal Witnessing". There is a very
subtle holding in them for maintaining this witnessing subconciously thereby
denying them from naturally going into deep sleep. If it reaches a point that
presents itself as a problem, it is a signal to the practitioner that it is
time to let go and dissolve the holding of the Witness, the center. It will be
tough to simply try just "let go" of the center and if this is the
case, an insight into our "emptiness nature" may help. Only after going
through a full cycle of natural non-duality and beingness in all three states
will a practitioner sleep be shorten. I called this the second cycle of
non-duality.
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:23am UTC+08
In fact I told you not to practice that way cause you asked me before. I
told you I practice trying to maintain awareness in the 3 states before
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08
Yeah not this
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/232880
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:24am UTC+08
Sleep cycle shorten due to clarity but deep sleep is a form of samadhi. In
fact I told you not to practice that way cause you asked me before. I told you I
practice trying to maintain awareness in the 3 states before and face a lot of
problems
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:26am UTC+08
Jonls is one but Simpo and you also
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:26am UTC+08
18 Sep `06, 11:44AM Originally posted by longchen: I don't have the book
with me now... But... I think he said something like this... 1. Be the
witnessing Presence... watching the thinker. This should be I AM. 2. He also
described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time. This is like
a state of gap between thinking. 3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms
Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a
separation. There shouldn't be a 'beyond'. Yes Longchen, Very well said. There
never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else. When there
is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality.
Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into
the non-duality without certain pre-requiste can cause problems. There is
always habitual propensities that will again make this experience an object of
attachment. It can cause a person to go without sleep as the body is incapable
of dealing with this new found experience. Many have mistaken this to be a
heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not
true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to
let go of everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our
thought patterns, there must come this willingness to let go of our body
completely, then our thoughts and the experience of presence...completely
letting go from moment to moment...the senses and thoughts can be shut by this
art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid Presence must
fuse into one. Practice during the waking state till the there is no single
trace of doubt that there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just
the incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience of
non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no witness, just
dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-conscious
propensites require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There
is no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the
experience and allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep
sleep. Sleep well.
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:27am UTC+08
oh
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:28am UTC+08
06 Feb `07, 11:58AM Originally posted by longchen: Hmmm... although i
have fully understood that existence is non-dual and can at times goes into the
bliss of no one, physical pain still hurts like hell. I think we should not
negate pain and suffering. For those who have suffered losses in the recent
floods, the pain is real. The subject-object split is false... but the pain
created by causes and conditions is real. And that is what non-dual is all
about. There is no-self to obstruct the experience, it is as real and as clear
as it can be. you replied: Side Message: The deep dreamless sleep is a very
precious state of being, a natural samadhi of its own, a measure of
accomplishment in the first complete cycle of non-dual. If conditions are
understood along with our pristine nature, all 3 states flow as a single whole.
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:28am UTC+08
Yes. When?
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08
06 Feb `07, 11:58AM
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08
buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/235502
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:30am UTC+08
Yeah...coz he is still in witnessing state. Lol...I still rem
Soh Wei YuSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:32am UTC+08
huh.. can't be.. longchen at that time already stabilized nondual
John TanSaturday, February 15, 2014 at 12:33am UTC+08
Yeah but not anatta. Non-dual awareness. Or has he realized anatta? If
he does, then I would have told him total exertion”