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Newbie questions...
Hi all, thanks for all the resources and pointers that are available here. After months of study I have become determined to meditate to get results. I’ve mostly studied advaita vedanta but I've also read Angelo’s book and watched a lot of his videos. I went from being unable to meditate to to 3.5 hours yesterday and today so far I've done 3 hours with the longest sitting being 1 hour 28 minutes but the pain was unbearable so I stopped. I sit on a stool as sitting on the floor isn't possible yet. I am determined to sit for as many hours as I possibly can each day (even the whole day if I can overcome the pain) and thought I should post for advice just to make sure I’m going in the right direction
I’m using the below guided meditations and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on them or if there is a better guided meditation out there?
I’ve managed to be able to follow the breath without much mind wandering so I thought I would do some inquiry…So I asked “who am I?”But stopped because the question just seemed like more thought (mind talk). My understanding is that awareness is left when there are no thoughts? I’ve read about turning awareness back on itself… I had no idea how to do this although i tried.
Any advice from more experienced people would be greatly appreciated. Realisation/awakening is my main objective in life now so I’m throwing everything at it. I’m open to any suggestions, pointers, advice…
The other thing I’ve been wondering is how important it is to have a guru? In advaita vedanta they teach that it’s very important. With all the info available online today I wasn’t sure that having a guru is still necessary? Would a guru be able to transmit or impart some shakti or anything else that would help?
Thanks anyone for any advice, links, pointers
21 Comments
Soh Wei Yu
Welcome.
Perhaps switching your koan to either of these can help:
1) “Before thinking, what am I?”
2) Without thoughts, tell me what is your very mind right now?
Also see link: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../what-is-your-very...
Also:
Soh's translation:
Yuan Yin Lao Ren:
In
the past there was a Master who contemplated, "what is the original
face before my parents were born?" He contemplated for many years, but
did not awaken. Later on he encountered a great noble person and
requested for his compassionate guidance. The noble one asked: "What
koan did you contemplate?" He replied: "I contemplated what is the
original face before my parents were born?" Noble one replied: "You
contemplated too far away, should look nearby." He asked: "How should I
look nearby?" Noble one replied: "Don't look into what is before your
parents were born, need to look at: before a thought arise, what is it?"
The Zen practitioner immediately attained great awakening.
Everyone
that is sitting here, please look at what is this before a moment of
thought's arising? IT is radiating light in front of everybody's [sense]
doors, the brightness radiates everything yet is without the slightest
clinging, nothing is known and nothing is seen yet it is not similar to
wood and stones, what is This? IT is right here shining in its
brilliancy, this is awakening to the Way. Therefore it is said, "the
great way is not difficult, just cease speech and words"!
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
What is your very Mind right now?
Richard Macilwaine
Soh Wei Yu Thank you. I had read this before on your site
But If I'm in meditation and no thoughts arising then suddenly I say
"Before thinking what am I?" should I expect an answer? How long should I
wait before repeating the question? Is there supposed to be some
emotions with this question? Thank you very much
Soh Wei Yu
Richard Macilwaine
The only real answer that satisfies is the non-conceptual certainty of
Beingness. It is the Beingness, the pure sense of your own Existence
itself that carries with it a quality of total certainty and
doubtlessness, not any other thoughts, concepts, emotions, and so on.
Let
it be a natural process of inquiry into the deepest source of your
Being. There is no need to fabricate the inquiry too much by scripting
it with thoughts like "every minute, ask myself, who am I again..." just
let it be a spontaneous and earnest inquiry to find out what exactly
you are from the deepest depth of your being. A deep yearning to
discover who you really are.. this deep yearning will carry your inquiry
not only in formal meditation but into your daily life whenever you can
or can remember, and for some people even into sleep (although I didn't
inquire in sleep back then).
“Something I always say when you are doing self enquiry or any other contemplations and meditations, this is crucial:
"We
think it's all about like, again, because of our modern mind, we almost
think everything can be solved through some sort of technology. Right,
oh, I just need to do it different, there must be some secret trick to
inquiry, that's our technological mind-set. Sometimes that's a mindset
that is very useful to us. But, we don't want to let that dominate our
spirituality. Because as I witnessed, the intensity of the living
inquiry that's more important than all the techniques.
When
somebody Just Has To Know. Even if that's kind of driving them half
crazy for a while. And, that attitude is as important or more important
than all the ways we work with that attitude, you know, the spiritual
practices, the meditations and various inquiries and various different
things, sort of practices. If we engage in the practices because they
are practices, you know like, ok I just do these because this is what
I'm told to do, and hopefully it will have some good effect. That's
different than being engaged, when you're actually being deeply
interested in what you're inquiring about, and what you're actually
meditating upon. It's that quality of real, actual interest, something
even more than interest. It is a kind of compulsion, I know I was saying
earlier don't get taken in by compulsion, but there is/can be a kind of
compulsion. And that's as valuable as anything else going on in you,
actually."
- Adyashanti
This is related to Zen's great doubt, great faith and great perseverance. Especially the aspect of Great Doubt.” – Soh, 2020
Soh Wei Yu
Richard Macilwaine An excerpt from the AtR guide:
"I can’t explain it but am taking it as a sign that “my” awareness really wants to know itself "
Soh:
this is important and good, this means you are ready to do self
enquiry. doing koan or self enquiry without that 疑情 (sensation of doubt)
is not going to be effective, because it ends up like mantra chanting
"who am i... who am i". hsu yun's articles are good as it is about self
enquiry. it says if you are just chanting who am i like a mantra, then
it is actually more meritorious to chant amitabha buddha's name instead
but since you are enquiring with real 疑情 (sensation of doubt) it is genuine self enquiry
In zen it is said great doubt, great awakenining. small doubt, small awakening. no doubt, no awakening.
the
problem with most people doing self enquiry or koan is that they lack
that attitude or requisite... great doubt, great faith and great
preserverence
these three elements are sufficient
Absolutely essential for those practicing self-inquiry:
Great Faith, Great Doubt
On the pull between faith and doubt that can spark awakening - by a Zen teacher
Most of the work in Zen practice takes place while sitting zazen
because, in reality,
there’s nothing anyone can give us.
There’s nothing that we lack;
each one of us is perfect and complete.
That’s why it is said that
there are no Zen teachers and nothing to teach.
But this truth must be realized by each one of us.
Great
faith, great doubt, and great determination
are three essentials for that realization.
Great faith is the boundless faith in oneself and
in one's ability to realize oneself and make oneself free;
great doubt is the deep and penetrating doubt that asks:
Who am I?
What is life?
What is truth?
What is God?
What is reality?
Great faith and great doubt are in dynamic tension with each other;
they work to provide the real cutting edge of koan practice.
When great faith and great doubt are also accompanied by great determination --
the determination of “seven times knocked down, eight times up” --
we have at our disposal the power necessary
to break through our delusive way of thinking
and realize the full potential of our lives.
~ John Daido Loori” - Soh’s E-Journal, 2011 http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../my-e-booke...
KIRTIMUKHA.COM
Great Faith
Soh Wei Yu
Richard Macilwaine Also go through these pointers:
YOUTUBE.COM
Adyashanti - Meditative Self-Inquiry (part 1)
Soh Wei Yu
Richard Macilwaine ""Before thinking what am I?"" --> you don't need to verbally recite this like a mantra.
The point is to explore, investigate in your being, what you truly are before thoughts. Look, find out, discover.
Soh Wei Yu
Your earnestness to practice and inquire and self-realize is commendable and important. Keep it up.
A face to face meeting with a teacher and receiving pointers and guidance can be of help.
(i dont agree with the downplaying of the importance of practice and meditation by this teacher though)
AWAKENINGCLARITYNOW.COM
Awakening to the Natural State: Guest Teaching by John Wheeler - Awakening Clarity Now by Fred Davis
Soh Wei Yu
But your sitting should be comfortable and relaxed. As much as possible. Get your postures right
Douglas MacRae Smith
Also
getting up and walking around a bit can be helpful : for alleviating
unhealthy effects of physical immobility, and integrating movement with
choicelessness. (may we all be forever newbies)
Douglas MacRae Smith
PS
- if you are a young healthy person, the fear of physical pain from
sitting in weird cross legged postures, can be a way into psychological
death (aka death of self) - are you willing to die or are you trying to
become a better you?
Soh Wei Yu
Yes
indeed. My experience of zazen at the australian open way zen temple
was like 45 minutes sitting meditation then 15 walking meditation then
30 sitting meditation i think.
Richard Macilwaine
Douglas MacRae Smith
Great pointer. I was actually trying to force my body to get used to
the discomfort! Like a body builder forces himself to lift another rep
despite having almost no power to do so. But, if it's ok to get up and
stretch, I'll do that
Richard Macilwaine
Douglas MacRae Smith
I'm entirely willing to die. How can fear of physical pain from sitting
in weird cross legged postures, be a way into psychological death?
This
morning when I sat for hour and 28 minutes, the pain was great! But it
was in the morning so I had more will power and determination.
Douglas MacRae Smith
Richard Macilwaine
Will power and determination is the continuation of self. (aka
knowledge and desire - need of the self to progress/security/power).
You will know immediately when the self is totally seen & denied
(especially in the face of pain)
Geoffrey Levens
Douglas MacRae Smith
It is also quite possible to do permanent damage to your body by
forcing a particular positions because others say it's "right". I know
several people who blew out knee ligaments in just that way.
Not
the end of the world and yes, the body is just an illusion and all
that. BUT it's also more difficult to practice if you are in chronic
physical pain. Ayurveda was originally developed so that people could be
more free from physical distress and survival fears and be able to
attend to spiritual practice more easily.
And
though for some, Awakening comes pretty quickly, there are many, like
me, who must "work at it" for most of a lifetime to find even noticeable
progress. Anyone can tolerate some pain for a week or a month. Can you
continue for 50 years?
Douglas MacRae Smith
Geoffrey Levens
Just in case anyone thinks there is some magical power in the posture
itself : thats not what I'm saying. Nor am I denying the evolutionary
usefulness of pain as a survival mechanism - I am talking about the
relationship between fear, self and progress. Also that the ending of
fear/self & pain are simultaneous and instantaneous. And arise
through insight, not accumulation.
Richard Macilwaine
Douglas MacRae Smith would you mind sharing more about this relationship between fear, self and progress?
Soh Wei Yu
Here is a quote from AtR guide:
Begin
by investigating this sense of existence, this sense of being. What is
it? Who am I? This is not meant to be verbally or mentally recited (as
Self-Inquiry teacher Zen/Ch'an Master Hsu Yun says, if you want to
chant, chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha wholeheartedly will be more
meritorious than chanting Who am I? or Who is chanting Buddha?), nor
should it be an intellectual inquiry by engaging the mind in concepts to
figure things out. No. Rather it is a non-conceptual and non-verbal
exploration, investigation, examination of this sense of Presence, what
is this Self, what is true, beyond all thoughts and conceptualizations
and images we have about who I am. Your conceptualizing mind needs to
calm down for true insight to arise (but calmness alone does not result
in insight - inquiry does). The inquiry 'Who am I' is a tool to turn the
attention inward, to turn the light around and investigate our
essential being so that direct realization of this 'I', Beingness,
AMness can occur.
Keep
inquiring in that manner until unshakeable conviction arises through a
sudden illumination: the undoubtable sense that I AM, which is beyond
all thoughts and concepts - this undeniable, undoubtable sense of
presence and existence that is at the same time aware and knows itself
and aware of everything. It is both present, and aware. As I wrote: You
Are That Knowing which is certain that You Are! The distinction between
knower, knowing, and known dissolve into That. You Are That!
After this realization, your understanding of spirituality will not remain intellectual/conceptual.
Yin Ling
Glad to see ur enthusiasm ! At first it is normal for us to want to strive hard and push our body and mind through..
But
after awhile I realise it is the consistency and the willingness to
play the long game that makes a huge difference as it takes a lot of
time to transform our body and mind.
It
is great to put urself through a “retreat” level intensity once in
awhile.. but do think about how to play this game for years and years.
To be able to sit 2 hours a day for the next 5-10/20 years would be the kind of game we play in dhamma haha
Hard striving from my xp can cause a lot of side effects so do take care when things get abit much.
Enjoy ur journey!!
Lowell Arye
Richard Macilwaine,
if one wishes to sit for hours, recommend developing calm abiding and
equanimity through Shamatha. I generally sit for 90 minutes upwards of 3
plus hours. This will also support one during insight (vipassana) as
well. When one is doing self-inquiry it is used to rest into
Presence/Suchness. Sink back into the question.
Angelo Grr
Love
the dedication to waking up! A lot of good pointers here, just wanted
to offer encouragement. Be patient , but willing to penetrate this
instant,letting go of everything as you ride the carrier wave of
whatever inquiry question or even bare intuition that feels most
relevant. Let go of all contexts, frameworks, judging progress, and just
give yourself fully