The realization of Certainty of Being (I AM) is important and is the important base for further insights IMO. In further stages, it is not denied, the view just get refined through deeper realization that breaks down the view of dualism (subject object/perceiver-perceived dualism) and inherency.

🙏 :) p.s. I'm Soh, and Thusness (John Tan) is my mentor... I've been through similar stages as him in my journey

Session Start: Saturday, 27 March, 2010

(9:54 PM) Thusness: Not bad for self-enquiry

(9:55 PM) AEN: icic..

btw what do u think lucky and chandrakirti is trying to convey

(9:56 PM) Thusness: those quotes weren't really well translated in my opinion.

(9:57 PM) Thusness: what needs be understood is 'No I' is not to deny Witnessing consciousness.

(9:58 PM) Thusness: and 'No Phenomena' is not to deny Phenomena

(9:59 PM) Thusness: It is just for the purpose of 'de-constructing' the mental constructs.

(10:00 PM) AEN: oic..

(10:01 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound, u cannot deny it...can u?

(10:01 PM) AEN: ya

(10:01 PM) Thusness: so what r u denying?

(10:02 PM) Thusness: when u experience the Witness as u described in ur thread 'certainty of being', how can u deny this realization?

(10:03 PM) Thusness: so what is does 'no I' and 'no phenomena' mean?

(10:03 PM) AEN: like u said its only mental constructs that are false... but consciousness cant be denied ?

(10:03 PM) Thusness: no...i am not saying that

Buddha never deny the aggregates

(10:04 PM) Thusness: just the selfhood

(10:04 PM) Thusness: the problem is what is meant by 'non-inherent', empty nature, of phenomena and 'I'

2010:

(11:15 PM) Thusness: but understanding it wrongly is another matter

can u deny Witnessing?

(11:16 PM) Thusness: can u deny that certainty of being?

(11:16 PM) AEN: no

(11:16 PM) Thusness: then there is nothing wrong with it

how could u deny ur very own existence?

(11:17 PM) Thusness: how could u deny existence at all

(11:17 PM) Thusness: there is nothing wrong experiencing directly without intermediary the pure sense of existence

(11:18 PM) Thusness: after this direct experience, u should refine ur understanding, ur view, ur insights

(11:19 PM) Thusness: not after the experience, deviate from the right view, re-enforce ur wrong view

(11:19 PM) Thusness: u do not deny the witness, u refine ur insight of it

what is meant by non-dual

(11:19 PM) Thusness: what is meant by non-conceptual

what is being spontaneous

what is the 'impersonality' aspect

(11:20 PM) Thusness: what is luminosity.

(11:20 PM) Thusness: u never experience anything unchanging

(11:21 PM) Thusness: in later phase, when u experience non-dual, there is still this tendency to focus on a background... and that will prevent ur progress into the direct insight into the TATA as described in the tata article.

(11:22 PM) Thusness: and there are still different degree of intensity even u realized to that level.

(11:23 PM) AEN: non dual?

(11:23 PM) Thusness: tada (an article) is more than non-dual...it is phase 5-7

(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:24 PM) Thusness: it is all about the integration of the insight of anatta and emptiness

(11:25 PM) Thusness: vividness into transience, feeling what i called 'the texture and fabric' of Awareness as forms is very important

then come emptiness

(11:26 PM) Thusness: the integration of luminosity and emptiness

(10:45 PM) Thusness: do not deny that Witnessing but refine the view, that is very important

(10:46 PM) Thusness: so far, u have correctly emphasized the importance of witnessing

(10:46 PM) Thusness: unlike in the past, u gave ppl the impression that u r denying this witnessing presence

(10:46 PM) Thusness: u merely deny the personification, reification and objectification

(10:47 PM) Thusness: so that u can progress further and realize our empty nature.

but don't always post what i told u in msn

(10:48 PM) Thusness: in no time, i will become sort of cult leader

(10:48 PM) AEN: oic.. lol

(10:49 PM) Thusness: anatta is no ordinary insight. When we can reach the level of thorough transparency, u will realize the benefits

(10:50 PM) Thusness: non-conceptuality, clarity, luminosity, transparency, openness, spaciousness, thoughtlessness, non-locality...all these descriptions become quite meaningless.

2007:

(4:20 PM) Thusness: buddhism stresses more on direct experience.

(4:20 PM) Thusness: there is no-self apart from the arising and ceasing

(4:20 PM) AEN: icic..

(4:20 PM) Thusness: and from arising and ceasing one sees the emptiness nature of 'Self'

(4:21 PM) Thusness: There is Witnessing.

(4:21 PM) Thusness: Witnessing is the manifestation.

(4:21 PM) Thusness: there is no witness witnessing manifestation.

(4:21 PM) Thusness: that is buddhism.

2009:

(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is always witnessing...don't get it wrong

just whether one understand its emptiness nature or not.

(7:39 PM) Thusness: there is always luminosity

since when there is no witnessing?

(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is just luminosity and emptiness nature

not luminosity alone

(9:59 PM) Thusness: there is always this witnessing...it is the divided sense that u have to get rid

(9:59 PM) Thusness: that is why i never deny the witness experience and realization, just the right understanding

2008:

(2:58 PM) Thusness: There is no problem being the witness, the problem is only wrong understanding of what witness is.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: That is seeing duality in Witnessing.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: or seeing 'Self' and other, subject-object division. That is the problem.

(2:59 PM) Thusness: U can call it Witnessing or Awareness, there must be no sense of self.

(11:21 PM) Thusness: yes witnessing

not witness

(11:22 PM) Thusness: in witnessing, it is always non-dual

(11:22 PM) Thusness: when in witness, it is always a witness and object being witness

when there is an observer, there is no such thing as no observed

(11:23 PM) Thusness: when u realised that there is only witnessing, there is no observer and observed

it is always non-dual

(11:24 PM) Thusness: that is why when genpo something said there is no witness only witnessing, yet taught the staying back and observed

(11:24 PM) Thusness: i commented the path deviates from the view

(11:25 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:25 PM) Thusness: when u teach experience the witness, u teach that

that is not about no subject-object split

u r teaching one to experience that witness

(11:26 PM) Thusness: first stage of insight of the "I AM" 

Read more at: No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence of Awareness