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Soh Wei Yu
You
might have misunderstood. Realisation of anatman is not an experience
of no-mind. There is no entry or exit. This is unlike a peak experience
of no-mind which can be merely temporary.
Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
Wrote in 2018：
"If
someone talks about an experience he/she had and then lost it, that's
not (the true, deep) awakening... As many teachers put it, it's the
great samadhi without entry and exit.
John Tan: There is no entry and exit. Especially for no-self. Why is there no entry and exit?
Me (Soh): Anatta (no-self) is always so, not a stage to attain. So it's about realisation and shift of perception.
John Tan: Yes 
As
John also used to say to someone else, "Insight that 'anatta' is a seal
and not a stage must arise to further progress into the 'effortless'
mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always
been so, no I. In seeing, always only seen, in hearing always only sound
and in thinking, always only thoughts. No effort required and never was
there an 'I'.""
Also：
Differentiate Wisdom from Art
Replying to someone in Rinzai Zen discussion group, John Tan wrote recently:
“I think we have to differentiate wisdom from an art or a state of mind.
In Master Sheng Yen’s death poem,
Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)
This
"Originally there never was any 'I'" is wisdom and the dharma seal of
anatta. It is neither an art like an artist in zone where self is
dissolved into the flow of action nor is it a state to be achieved in
the case of the taoist "坐忘" (sit and forget) -- a state of no-mind.
For
example in cooking, there is no self that cooks, only the activity of
cooking. The hands moves, the utensils act, the water boils, the
potatoes peel and the universe sings together in the act of cooking.
Whether one appears clumsy or smooth in act of cooking doesn't matter
and when the dishes r out, they may still taste horrible; still there
never was any "I" in any moment of the activity. There is no entry or
exit point in the wisdom of anatta.”
Labels: Anatta, Zen Master Sheng-yen 1 comments | |
Soh wrote in 2007 based on what John Tan wrote:
First
I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of
experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a
thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment
flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is
the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very
important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the
nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from
personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means
that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to
experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is
important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature,
characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html)
that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing,
there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person
says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a
stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a
stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only
sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing
attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a
non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of
the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom,
there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of
'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its
dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of
the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here
that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are
created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the
same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things
dualistically.
John Tan adds: "This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept."
Labels: Anatta |
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State
Mr./Ms. PZS
So you’re saying in this life it is never forgotten, and always so, but in the next life it can be forgotten?
Soh Wei Yu
Mr./Ms. PZS
Yes. Anatta is realised as a dharma seal, always already so. That
realisation will not be forgotten this life but may be forgotten next
life. Just like when you grow up and realised santa claus is fake, you
will never again be tricked into believing santa claus is real in this life. But in your next life you may be tricked into believing in santa claus again.
Mr./Ms. PZS
Soh Wei Yu
I’m just curious how this corresponds to the idea of rigpa being
fragmented/interrupted for anyone that isn’t a Buddha, as we say in
Acharya’s Dzogchen circle.
Soh Wei Yu
Mr./Ms. PZS Joyfully delight in the uninterrupted vision of the objects of the six senses!
Whatever you enjoy, bodhi will blaze more and more.
When one has obtained the power of the supreme presence and become familiar with it,
...
It is thought that creates the duality of mind and object;
It is wisdom that perceives them as non-dual.
Meditation means understanding there is nothing to enter into or exit from.
Not grasping what appears is the state of self-liberation!
~ Dzogchen book The Supreme Source
Soh Wei Yu
Mr./Ms. PZS
I recall John Tan said many years ago for him there is no entry and
exit with regards to agent-agency-perceiver-perceived, the same for me.
There is no subject-object duality or perceiver or agent all the time,
no entry or exit to nondual experience, which is
also the same here. He also commented something about characteristics of
phenomena not being permanently eliminated all the time, although he
has since made further breakthroughs that eliminates cognitive
obscurations.
Also related,
“John Tan
Just
free ourselves from sense of self first, then it is probably 60% done.
After then gradually to all notions into supreme purity.
· Reply · 1d
Arthur Deller
John Tan I like that. Where did the 60% factor in!?!? No self is true. For whom would the other 40% apply. 
· Reply · 1d
John Tan
Arthur
Deller an arbitrary number...haha. "For whom" is within the 60%. If we
start from other notions like cause and effect, will most likely end up
as intellectual entertainment.
· Reply · 1d
Arthur Deller
in the words of Maximus. “Are you not entertained”.
I’ve had enough intellectual stimulation to last an eon or so.
In thinking no thinker
Thought with no thinking.
· Reply · 1d
John Tan
If both thinker and thinking are deconstructed, why do you keep that thought?
· Reply · 1d
Arthur Deller
John Tan I don’t. They just come and go. Like pixels. Fuzzy characters with no landing place.
· Reply · 1d
John Tan
Arthur
Deller then notion of "coming", "landing" and "going" must be subjected
to the same scrutiny like thinker, thinking and thought.
· Reply · 1d · Edited
Arthur Deller
John Tan I had a feeling that you picked up on that. Was gonna go into the non-arising via DO, but my brain 
said it isn’t necessary.
said it isn’t necessary. · Reply · 1d
Arthur Deller
John Tan you just lit a 
. In deep samadhi and insight meditation that’s very clear. On the go throughout the day while interacting, not as much.
. In deep samadhi and insight meditation that’s very clear. On the go throughout the day while interacting, not as much. · Reply · 1d
John Tan
Arthur
Deller distinguishing appearances and imputed notions added to mere
appearances is a life long journey and indeed, daily engagement is the
real meditation.
· Reply · 1d · Edited
Arthur Deller
John Tan Hence the other 40%. Nice.©
Soh Wei Yu
In
the Mahamudra path, equipoise and post-equipoise begins to be mixed at
the yoga of one taste, although it is not perfected until the yoga of
non-meditation. See Mahamudra: The Moonlight:
The stage of one flavor consists of the mind being settled
the concepts of whether all things of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa
are empty or not empty and of whether the mind has
detached itself from the view of phenomena as absolute
arising or dissolving. Je Phagdru explains:
By meditating on the one flavor of all things,
The meditator will cognize the one flavor of all these
things.
The diversity of appearances and nonappearances,
Mind and emptiness, emptiness and nonemptiness,
Are all of one flavor, nondifferentiable in their
intrinsic emptiness.
Understanding and lack of understanding are of one
flavor;
Equipoise and postequipoise are nondifferentiable;
Meditation and absence of meditation are unified into
one flavor;
Discrimination and lack of discrimination are one
flavor
In the expanse of reality.
Je Shang says:
When the one-flavor stage dawns,
One will cognize the characteristics of mind;
One will realize that the diverse things of saṃsāra and
nirvāṇa
Arise from the mind’s nondiscriminatory dharmakāya.
Appearance and absence of appearance,
Stability and absence of stability,
Emptiness and absence of emptiness,
Clarity and absence of clarity
Are all of one flavor in the luminous dharmakāya.
The nonmeditation stage consists of [an enlightened
mind] that has cleared all stains of inner sensation and
experience and has achieved a harmonious blend of the
understanding of the illuminating process with the abiding
nature of the mind. Such a mind is completely detached
from the duality of absorption and postabsorption,
mindfulness and distraction. Je Phagdru writes:
By perfecting this [nonmeditation stage]
The meditator attains naked, unsupported awareness.
This nondiscriminatory awareness is the meditation!
By transcending the duality of meditation and
meditator,
External and internal realities,
The meditating awareness dissolves itself
Into its luminous clarity.
Transcending the intellect,
It is without the duality of equipoise and
postequipoise.
Such is the quintessence of mind.
Je Shang concludes:
When the nonmeditation stage of yoga dawns,
The essence of awareness detaches itself
From any inborn supports.
The yogin will find nothing to meditate on,
Because the unreality of the meditator has been
exposed.
It is proclaimed that the potential of enlightenment
Is contained in every mind.
Adorned with the three transcending forms 200
And the five aspects of awareness,201
One will discover this by oneself.
Since there is agreement among most of the oral
transmissions concerning the identification of the four
stages of yoga, I have not elaborated on them here.
Soh Wei Yu
6. The difference between absorption and
postabsorption
Je Gomchung comments:
Both appropriate equipoise and postequipoise.
At the nondiscriminatory stage there arise
Differentiable equipoise and postequipoise.
At the stage of one flavor there emerges
The union of equipoise and postequipoise.
At the stage of nonmeditation
There is an all-round absorption.
Since no exact nondiscriminatory awareness emerges in
the one-pointed stage, there is no distinctive meditative
absorption. Similarly, there is no distinctive
postabsorption, since illusionlike postabsorption does not
arise without the realization of the nonarising [emptiness]
of all appearances. However, it is possible for the
meditator, on this level of practice, to absorb his mind into
the meditation and also to regain it immediately after
getting distracted by simply revitalizing the mindfulness.
The distinctive meditative absorption is achieved in the
nondiscriminatory stage, because the awareness that dawns
consists of a dimension of nonduality. As a
nondifferentiating awareness it is detached from the mind’s
clinging to the dualities of subject-object, external and
internal. The distinctive postabsorption is achieved when
the meditator cognizes the [inevitable] simple appearance
of duality as only ephemeral illusion. And thus meditative
absorption and postabsorption are differentiated.
In the absorptive equipoise at the stage of one flavor, all
dualities such as appearance and emptiness are perceived
as being nondual. Even during postabsorption, whenever
the meditator through mindfulness of nonduality cognizes
appearance and emptiness as nondual and illusionlike, his
practice is merely described as a blend of absorption with
postabsorption.
In the stage of nonmeditation, even though sensory
appearances continue to emerge, they arise and dissolve in
nothing other than the absorptive equipoise. Hence there is
considered to be nothing but total absorption.
Je Shang sums it up thus:
Whenever one is absorbed in primordial awareness,
Whatever one may be doing – jumping, running,
murmuring, or talking –
One is still in equipoise.
Whenever one is detached from primordial
awareness,
One slips into postabsorption,
Even though one may be sitting in meditation.
He continues:
However high the spiritual attainment,
As long as one has not mastered meditation,
There will emerge the dualities
Of absorption and postabsorption,
Sustained and unsustained mindfulness,
A distracted and undistracted mind.
Once the meditational state dawns
Without any need to strive for it,
Then this is described as the stage of nonmeditation.
Whenever an innermost awareness encompasses each of
the first three yoga stages, the meditator is in an
appropriate equipoise, even though he may be engaged in
jumping, running, or talking. But whenever such an
awareness is absent, the meditator’s mental stage is
reduced to a postabsorptive perception, even though he
may be sitting in meditation. As long as the meditator has
the need to strive for meditational perfection, there will be
such dualities as equipoise and postequipoise, sustained
and unsustained mindfulness, a distracted and undistracted
mind. It must be noted that the actual nonmeditation stage
consists of the union [of luminous awareness and the
supreme illusor y form] on the path of noncultivation.202
Soh Wei Yu
7. The time of realization for each of the four yoga
stages
Je Gomchung comments on the time thus:
stage,
When one masters both equipoise and postequipoise
in the nondiscriminatory stage,
When one succeeds in blending equipoise and
postequipoise in the stage of one flavor,
And when one realizes the stage of nonmeditation
[enlightenment].
The meditator achieves a definite experience in
meditative equipoise at the one-pointed stage when he
maintains the inner sensation and the conscious certainty
through revitalized mindfulness. He reorients his
meditation to the perception during the period of
postabsorption through a vigorous mindfulness. The
meditator masters both equipoise and postequipoise at the
nondiscriminatory stage when he meditates first on the
spacelike absorption with sustained mindfulness and then
on the illusionlike postabsorption during the period of
postabsorption. The meditator achieves the one even state
of all things at the stage of one flavor when he meditates on
the union of absorption and postabsorption by being
perfectly aware of the nonduality of appearance and
emptiness. The meditator achieves the indivisible union of
equipoise and postequipoise at the stage of nonmeditation
when he perfects this meditation to its ultimate limit.
Je Gampopa comments on the realization:
A spontaneous fulfillment is achieved
When one masters the one-pointed stage;
A nondual awareness is achieved
When one masters the nondiscriminatory stage;
The inconceivable nature of mind is realized
When one masters the stage of one flavor;
The ultimate perfection is realized
When one masters the stage of nonmeditation.
8. Some other characteristics of these four stages
Je Gyare comments:
At the one-pointed stage
Inner sensations dawn and diminish;
Karma is accumulated,
For this is the path of the transient world.
At the nondiscriminatory stage
One focuses on the nondual state [the transcendental
path],
The way one perceives one’s fatherland [with
familiarity],
And stabilizes the contemplation in absorption and
postabsorption.
At the stage of one flavor
Appearance emerges as meditation,
Which lasts
For an uninterrupted period of time.
The stage of nonmeditation
Is the seat of dharmakāya.
This means a pure concept
For most meditators on this level.203
Je Gyare explains further:
By meditating on the one-pointed yoga for a long time
The meditator will inevitably eliminate
His attachment to sensory pleasures
And will gain certain powers achieved by the ancient
ascetics,
Such as the power of supercognition, transformation,
and the like.
By maintaining the awareness of the
nondiscriminatory yoga
The meditator will perceive the great spectacle
Of uncertain reality and its false appearance.
He will attain certain vital qualities of a Bodhisattva,
Such as compassion without any self-concern,
According to the intensity of his training
And the level of his intelligence.
By maintaining the state of one flavor for a long time
He will perceive the great spectacle of the pure lands
of the Buddhas.
No matter what he does, whether sitting in a reclining
position,
Standing on his head, or walking,
[His absorption] is immobile, like a king who is
firmly seated;
[He perceives] the interrelated unity
Of the apparent and ultimate realities,
Like the sight of a magnificent silk cloth in the
sunlight.
He attains certain qualities of enlightenment
And will then fulfill the hopes of innumerable sentient
beings.
When the meditator reaches the highest level of
nonmeditation,
He will achieve the transcendental qualities
And will then carry out his spiritual functions
To their ultimate limit.
Soh Wei Yu
It
is a much longer book than Clarifying the Natural State, another must
read book by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. But the longer book is also very good
and worth reading, I read it a decade+ ago.
Soh Wei Yu
On
the other hand, if one merely have a peak experience of no-mind, it is
not yet without entry and exit, and is before the realisation of
anatman. This is what is spoken here:
Session Start: Sunday, 29 May, 2011
(7:17 PM) Thusness: anatta is often not correctly understood
it is common that one progress from experience of non-dual to no-mind instead of direct realization into anatta
(7:19 PM) Thusness: many focus on the experience
and there is a lack of clarity to penetrate the differences
so u must be clear of the various phases of insights first and not mistake one for the other
at the same time, refine your experience
these few days...have deeper sleep and exercise more
balance your body energies
Conversations with Thusness 2009-2013 on I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta:
(9:12 PM) Thusness: no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
(9:14 PM) Thusness: ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
(9:14 PM) Thusness: but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
(9:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness: that all along it is so.
(11:19
PM) Thusness: u may have no-mind as an experience and understood
that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the
radiant world
(11:19 PM) Thusness: but still it remains as a stage
(11:19 PM) Thusness: u have no idea that it is a wrong view
(11:20 PM) Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:23 PM) AEN: dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
(11:23 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:23 PM) AEN: so no mind is a strage?
stage
(11:24 PM) Thusness: no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic
(11:24 PM) Thusness: where the background is completely gone
(11:25
PM) Thusness: very often a practitioner in an advance phase of
non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
And that becomes the practice
they know they have to be there
(11:26
PM) Thusness: however, to come to this natural state of non-dual
where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of
anatta.
(12:09 AM) Thusness: and say yes, u realized ur mistake. wrote too fast.
Awareness is just a label...
(12:11 AM) Thusness: some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
(12:12
AM) Thusness: when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to
lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight
but is able to penetrate non-dual.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
(12:14 AM) Thusness: when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
(12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness: that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
there is no sense of Self/self
or Awareness
(12:16 AM) Thusness: there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
effortlessly manifesting
(12:16 AM) Thusness: non-dually experienced
(12:18 AM) Thusness: in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
(12:18 AM) Thusness: the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
(12:19 AM) Thusness: first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
later u will understand what i mean
(12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
(12:15
AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a
self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
(12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent
(12:17
AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent
experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of
no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless
experience of all sensate experiences without self?
Thusness:
...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that
pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine
happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still
habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It
matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing,
always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in
thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
Soh Wei Yu
“William Lam: It's non conceptual.
John Tan: It’s non conceptual. Yup. Okay. Presence is not
conceptual experience, it has to be direct. And you just feel pure sense
of existence. Means people ask you, before birth, who are you? You just
authenticate the I, that is yourself, directly. So
when you first authenticate that I, you are damn happy, of course. When
young, that time, wah… I authenticate this I… so you thought that
you’re enlightened, but then the journey continues. So this is the first
time you taste something that is different. It is… It is before
thoughts, there is no thoughts. Your mind is completely still. You feel
still, you feel presence, and you know yourself. Before birth it is Me,
after birth, it is also Me, 10,000 years it’s still this Me, 10,000 year
before, it’s still this Me. So you authenticate that, your mind is just
that and authenticate your own true being, so you don't doubt that. In
later phase…
Kenneth Bok: Presence is this I AM?
John Tan: Presence is the same as I AM. Presence is the same as…
of course, other people may disagree, but actually they're referring to
the same thing. The same authentication, the same what... even in Zen
is still the same.
But in later phase, I conceive that as just the thought realm.
Means, in the six, I always call the six entries and six exits, so there
is the sound and there’s all these… During that time, you always say
I’m not sound, I’m not the appearance, I AM the Self that is behind all
these appearances, alright? So, sounds, sensations, all these come and
go, your thoughts come and go, those are not me, correct? This is the
ultimate Me. The Self is the ultimate Me. Correct?
William Lam: So, is that nondual? The I AM stage. It’s non-conceptual, was it nondual?
John Tan: It’s nonconceptual. Yes, it is nondual. Why is it
nondual? At that moment, there is no duality at all, at that moment when
you experience the Self, you cannot have duality, because you are
authenticated directly as IT, as this pure sense of Being. So, it’s
completely I, there’s nothing else, just I. There’s nothing else, just
the Self. I think, many of you have experienced this, the I AM. So, you
probably will go and visit all the Hinduism, sing song with them,
meditate with them, sleep with them, correct? Those are the young days. I
meditate with them, hours after hours, meditate, sit with them, eat
with them, sing song with them, drum with them. Because this is what
they preach, and you find these group of people, all talking about the
same language.
So
this experience is not a normal experience, correct? I mean, within the
probably 15 years of my life or 17 years of my life, my first... when I
was 17, when you first experienced that, wah, what is that? So, it is
something different, it is non conceptual, it is non dual, and all
these. But it is very difficult to get back the experience. Very, very
difficult, unless you're in when you're in meditation, because you
reject the relative, the appearances. So, it is, although they may say
no, no, it is always with me, because it's Self, correct? But you don't
actually get back the authentication, just pure sense of existence, just
me, because you reject the rest of that appearances, but you do not
know during that time. Only after anatta, then you realize that this,
when you when you hear sound without the background, that experience is
exactly the same, the taste is exactly the same as the presence. The I
AM Presence. So, only after anatta, when the background is gone, then
you realize eh, this has the exact same taste as the I AM experience.
When you are not hearing, you are just in the vivid appearances, the
obvious appearances now, correct. That experience is also the I AM
experience. When you are even now feeling your sensation without the
sense of self directly. That experience is exactly the same as I AM
taste. It is nondual. Then you realize, I call, actually, everything is
Mind. Correct? Everything. So, so before that, there is an ultimate
Self, a background, and you reject all those transient appearances.
After that, that background is gone, you know? And then you are just all
these appearances.
William Lam: You are the appearance? You are the sound? You are the…
John
Tan: Yes. So, so, that is an experience. That is an experience. So
after that, you realize something. What did you realise? You realise all
along it is the what, that is obscuring you. So… in a person, for a
person that is in I AM experience, the pure presence experience, they
will always have a dream. They will say that I hope I can 24 by 7 always
in that state, correct? So when I was young, 17. But then after 10
years you are still thinking. Then after 20 years, you say how come I
need to always meditate? You always find time to meditate, maybe I don't
study also meditate, you give me a cave last time I will just meditate
inside.
So,
the the thing that you always dream that you can one day be pure
consciousness, just as pure consciousness, live as pure consciousness,
but you never get it. And even if you meditate, occasionally probably
you can have that oceanic experience. Only when you after anatta, when
that self behind is gone, you are not 24 by 7, maybe most of your day,
waking state, not so much of 24 by 7, you dream that time still very
karmic depending on what you engage, doing business, all these. (John
mimics dreaming) How come ah, the business…
So,
so, in normal waking state, you are effortless. Probably that is the,
during I AM phase, what you think you are going to achieve, you achieve
after the insight of anatta. So you become clear, you are probably in
the right path. But there are further insights you have to go through.
When you try to penetrate the… one of them is, I feel that I become very
physical. I am just narrating, going through my experience. Maybe that
time… because you experience the relative, the appearances directly. So
everything becomes very physical. So that is how you come to understand
the meaning, how concepts actually affect you. Then what exactly is
physical? How does the idea of physical come about, correct? That time I
still do not know about emptiness, and all these kind of things, to me
it is not so important.
So,
I start going into what exactly is physical, what exactly is being
physical? Sensation. But why is sensation known as physical, and what is
being physical? How did I get the idea of being physical? So, I began
to enquire into this thing. That, eh, actually on top of that, there is
still further things to deconstruct, that is the meaning… that, just
like self, I’m attached to the meaning of self, and you create a
construct, it becomes a reification. Same thing, physicality also. So,
you deconstruct the concepts surrounding physicality. Correct? So, when
you deconstruct that, then I began to realize that all along, we try to
understand, even after the experience of let’s say, anatta and all
these… when we analyze, and when we think and try to understand
something, we are using existing scientific concepts, logic, common day
to day logic and all these to understand something. And it is always
excluding consciousness. Even if you experience, you can lead a
spiritual path you know, but when you think and analyze something,
somehow you always exclude consciousness from the equation of
understanding something. Your concept is always very materialistic. We
always exclude consciousness from the whole equation.” - https://docs.google.com/.../16QGwYIP.../edit
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
ATR Meeting 28 October 2020
Mr./Ms. PZS
Soh Wei Yu I have a hard copy, it is very long I have barely dipped into it 
Mr./Ms. PZS
Soh Wei Yu I didn’t know about ATR meetings!
