Mr. J:

Tony Parsons seems to be one of the very few that anatta actually occurred to. Anatta is not an insight nor an understanding. It’s more like something just disappeared from consciousness. It’s a non-volitional event. It happened here also when engaging with the LU materials. The subconscious suddenly stops generating a “me”.
11:13 PM
Both the “am” and the “I” disappears in anatta, and no other consciousness remains which feels it has no “I” or “am”.
Subjectivity goes missing..




 

Soh:

direct realisation of anatta is accompanied by effortless dissolution of any sense of self/Self, in fact any dissolution of self/Self is only transient peak experiences prior to anatta realization. so it is far from merely an intellectual understanding but is the key to sustained and effortless and perpetual dissolution of all self/Self. " (12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification. (12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist (12:15 AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent? (12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent (12:17 AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self? " -
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/10/differentiating-i-am-one-mind-no-mind.html
tony parsons is at stage 5
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/02/tony-parsons-no-union-container-or.html
so yes he is into anatta but even then john tan would have criticised things he said and commented on his inadequecies in experience [31/1/16, 11:50:59 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Tony parsons just released a book, I ordered it from his website [31/1/16, 11:51:14 AM] John Tan: His new book? [31/1/16, 11:51:27 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ya called This Freedom [31/1/16, 11:58:45 AM] John Tan: Advaita [31/1/16, 11:58:49 AM] John Tan: Still [31/1/16, 11:58:59 AM] John Tan: Imo [31/1/16, 6:19:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean he still sees a metaphysical Essence? ‎[31/1/16, 6:22:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted [31/1/16, 6:26:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: He says everything is energy and there is no solid existence of anything, it's evernescent and ungraspable ‎[31/1/16, 6:28:04 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted [31/1/16, 6:28:08 PM] John Tan: Unfortunately he is not experiencing that way ‎[31/1/16, 6:28:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted [31/1/16, 6:29:57 PM] John Tan: For one that truly experience energy, he will not express that way [31/1/16, 6:30:09 PM] John Tan: And will not practice that way too [31/1/16, 6:30:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. Will not express in what way? [31/1/16, 6:33:49 PM] John Tan: The way of expression is still trap in the subtlety of thoughts...thinking that going beyond paradoxical thought constructs and vivid Clarity is all. [31/1/16, 6:46:43 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. [31/1/16, 6:51:43 PM] John Tan: When one is free from thought constructs and background, he is likewise able to directly touch and feel everything fully. So what is it like? [31/1/16, 6:52:53 PM] John Tan: It is no just no one there, everything is absolute appearing as relative...everything is alright... [31/1/16, 6:54:20 PM] John Tan: Seeing through constructs and background so that u can directly feel, touch, sense and engaged fully without attachment. [31/1/16, 6:58:00 PM] John Tan: If one is still masturbating in thought process abt beyond the paradox...then he is no where near. Not even close...that is what I want u to u know too. Talking abt energy yet not feeling vibrant life...seems like feeling freedom and abundance life like what u thinking now and in actual case lack of life is hell of a difference...lol [31/1/16, 6:59:14 PM] John Tan: Lack energy, lack compassion, lack vibrancy...what energy is there? [31/1/16, 7:01:06 PM] John Tan: Does not mean saying beautiful words like life in u and life that spins the earth r of same energy means understanding anything. [31/1/16, 7:01:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. [31/1/16, 7:02:31 PM] John Tan: What does filling and experiencing fully mean? [31/1/16, 7:02:52 PM] John Tan: One need to express it out [31/1/16, 8:11:01 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. [31/1/16, 9:39:55 PM] John Tan: After realizing the non-dual naturing of appearance, how is one to live life? [31/1/16, 9:40:14 PM] John Tan: Just ask James but don't say it is from me... [31/1/16, 9:47:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ok, asked [31/1/16, 9:48:03 PM] John Tan: Y is this imp? [31/1/16, 9:48:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: It has to do with the path and actualization? [31/1/16, 9:49:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Must be complete openness to manifestation without trace of self [31/1/16, 9:55:42 PM] John Tan: What is freedom after that? [31/1/16, 10:17:44 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Completely submerging in forms, no trace of self or afflictions therefore freedom [31/1/16, 10:19:01 PM] John Tan: U r another one that is lost...lol [31/1/16, 10:20:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol [31/1/16, 10:23:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: James replied [31/1/16, 10:23:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Soh Wei Yu, my heartfelt desire is to perfect the Nirmanakaya of selfless loving great compassion, so service to others. Anything else seems awefully empty 😁 [31/1/16, 10:24:35 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So what is freedom? [31/1/16, 10:31:04 PM] John Tan: U see the difference from what he said and tony parson? [31/1/16, 10:32:14 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Tony parsons seem stuck in passive nondual and nondoership [31/1/16, 10:32:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: And therefore not engaged [31/1/16, 10:33:54 PM] John Tan: Talking abt energy and life yet nothing in action. [31/1/16, 10:34:33 PM] John Tan: Still in arm chair, intoxicated in thoughts of non-dual and ultimate. A disease in fact. [31/1/16, 10:36:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. [31/1/16, 11:52:12 PM] John Tan: Say it is related to the book u just read [31/1/16, 11:52:20 PM] John Tan: And our discussion... [31/1/16, 11:53:02 PM] John Tan: Dun want him to look for me but hope he can look in the right direction. [31/1/16, 11:55:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. [1/2/16, 12:00:24 AM] John Tan: Also asked him does he do yoga or any form of energy practice... [1/2/16, 12:07:31 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ok.. Posted [1/2/16, 12:08:04 AM] John Tan: See his understanding of energy practice... [1/2/16, 12:08:50 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ok.. [1/2/16, 1:00:14 AM] John Tan: Swap the para reads more smooth: What you said is very good. I was reminded of a discussion I just had with Thusness about a new book by Tony Parsons called "This Freedom". I asked Thusness what freedom is. Freedom is not doing what one likes, that would be still self-view. It is also not just simply being unentangled within the paradigm of duality of subject/object, life/death division. The realization of anatta and emptiness relinquishes the self and reified constructs, consequently artificial boundaries and hindrance are also dissolved. When artificial constructs are dissolved, the natural, primordial and untainted are also spontaneously manifested in every engagement. If it is not, then one risks the danger of still being entangled in a non-dual ultimate and drowned in stagnant water. Hence there is a difference in understanding non-dual free from the framework of duality and the actualization of the non-dual realization as the spontaneity of action that is full of energy and compassion. So as Thusness pointed out to me, freedom must be realized not simply as non-attachment but also as boundless expression that is full of life and power. Therefore not only the path of non-attachment is seen clearly but the way of boundless compassion and powerful viriya must also be directly felt and lived. Not immobilized by artificial constructs and duality, action is natural and spontaneous; without self, there is no hesitation and obstruction. If one only sees freedom as non-attachment, then one will have missed an enormous part of the experiential insight of anatta and will not understand why Mipham is so insistent on talking about the positive attributes of Buddha, yet not falling into the views of Shentong. For example when Thusness asked me what fear is, my answer had mostly to do with the mental/psychological factors and attachment. However what Thusness want me to see is that fear is not only overcome by non-attachment but also by the feeling of unbounded life and energy. Btw, do you do yoga or any form of energy practice? [1/2/16, 1:10:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ok, updated ‎[1/2/16, 7:49:43 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted [1/2/16, 7:51:46 AM] John Tan: Ic. Yin yoga is good...going along with one's limit and condition. [1/2/16, 7:52:13 AM] John Tan: Will write something to him later
You replied to Jackson
Tony Parsons seems to be one of the very few that anatta actually occurred to. Anatta is not an insight nor an understanding. It’s more like something just disappeared from consciousness. It’s a non-volitional event. It happened here also when engaging with the LU materials. The subconscious suddenly stops generating a “me”.
liberation unleashed is mostly just into the impersonality and nondoership aspect. it is not what i call anatta realization yet see
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/10/is-liberation-unleashed-similar-to-atr.html
and
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html
You replied to Jackson
Both the “am” and the “I” disappears in anatta, and no other consciousness remains which feels it has no “I” or “am”.
you are describing more on the impersonality aspect. it is one of the four aspects of i am or progression after i am realization. but it is not the same as nondual (which is also not the same as anatta), and also not the same as anatta realization.

(Update: you can read about impersonality in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html , excerpt: "It should be noted that impersonality is not just an experience of non-doership. It is the dissolving of the construct of 'personal self' that led to a purging of ego effect to a state of clean, pure, not-mine sort of "perception shift", accompanied with a sense that everything and everyone is being expressions of the same aliveness/intelligence/consciousness.")
reminds me of posts in 2006 by john tan:
 

A site that describes four stages of enlightenment:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090624171515/http://www.parama.com/html/body_stages.html
SUMMARY Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM THAT Self Realization – I AM Jnani – I Satguru – no conceptualization

 

Thusness:

Interesting site...

In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond labels and concepts.

I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments:

On the experience of “AMness”:
The key when the ‘I’ drops away lies in “fusing into everything”. Without this experience, it is still resting in “I AM”, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of “fusing into all things”, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in.

On the unchanging self:

It is strange that when people want to know their real self, they start looking at relative bunches of ever changing concepts. Reality is that which underlies relativity. Reality is unchanging.
We must ask ourselves: “What is the only unchanging reality of our life? What is the only phenomenon that has never changed since we were born?”
The answer can readily be experienced when we close our eyes and go introspective. It is our sense of BEING. Our I AM-ness. Everybody can always experience the sense that they exist. That inner sense never changes and is there if we are happy, angry, sad, drunk,- whatever. Further, it cannot be localized within any part of the body. It is limitless and experienced by everyone the same way. It is infinite REALITY!
When observing moment to moment changes, it is almost natural to conclude this way. There must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary.

On feeling lightness and experiencing ‘astral traveling’:
My own experience is that the density of the body seems to change. Years ago I experienced the phenomena of ‘astral traveling.’ During this experience you have the feeling of leaving the coarser body and floating. At some stage you have to return to the body, and the feeling is not very pleasant. You are going from a feeling of freedom and ‘lightness’ back into what feels like cold, dense, clay. This ‘clay’ is the collective emotions, experiences, and holding of the body. After some AMness has fallen away, the body feels lighter and less dense. You just keep feeling lighter and freer.
The “density” and “lightness” is the weight of “losing her identification with certain aspect of the self”. The power of this “identification” cannot be underestimated.
Next is her experience of ‘astral traveling’, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that ‘consciousness’ has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.

But then everyone has their own experiences. Just my 2 cents. Smile

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/12/part-2-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_3.html


Session Start: Wednesday, July 05, 2006

(6:39 PM) AEN:    seen the new article?
(6:39 PM) AEN:    

SUMMARY

Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM  THAT

Self Realization – I AM

Jnani – I

Satguru – no conceptualization
(6:39 PM) AEN:    posted by longchen
(6:39 PM) AEN:    i tink u're best to comment
(6:39 PM) AEN:    hehe
(6:39 PM) John:    :)
(6:40 PM) John:    what is the different between what they said and what i told u?
(6:40 PM) AEN:    wat u said has nothing to do with 'self'
(6:41 PM) John:    they also spoke about dissolving the me and the gradual dissolving of the 'I' then dissolving of the 'AMness'. :)
(6:41 PM) AEN:    anyway how u tink we shld reply casino king in his new thread? lol
(6:42 PM) AEN:    iicc..
(6:42 PM) AEN:    u saw the article already?
(6:42 PM) John:    read the articles carefuly...it is quite interesting. :)
(6:42 PM) AEN:    yea i also read finish
(6:42 PM) AEN:    its said in the last stage
(6:42 PM) AEN:    that the self also dissolves
(6:44 PM) John:    now there it becomes more and more subtle when u enter slowly into the deeper stage of consciousness.  Do read it carefully...and tell me what do u think is different from what i told u.   It is a great article to refine ur understanding. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(6:52 PM) AEN:    btw casino king's experience is it in any of the 4 stages? lol
(6:53 PM) John:    u read he is like what stage. :P
(6:53 PM) AEN:    still reading again
(6:53 PM) AEN:    lol
(6:53 PM) AEN:    i tink none of that
(6:53 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) John:    lol...got lah..
(6:54 PM) AEN:    1st stage then
(6:54 PM) AEN:    i tink something similar
(6:54 PM) John:    yeah...about there...near to it lah
(6:54 PM) John:    dun say ppl like no substance
(6:54 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:00 PM) AEN:    i tink they dont have emptiness teaching
(7:02 PM) John:    yes but in terms of actual experience?
(7:07 PM) AEN:    there is still an attachment to the 'purest state'?
(7:09 PM) John:    he has already attempted and tried his best to eliminate all attachment.  It is the actual experience. :)
(7:09 PM) AEN:    icic
(7:10 PM) AEN:    it is not extended to all the senses?
(7:10 PM) John:    and what else?
(7:11 PM) John:    what is the purpose of extending it to the rest of the six senses?
(7:12 PM) AEN:    to experience spontaneous self-arising?
(7:12 PM) John:    read the article, didn't it tok about spontaneous self-arising?
(7:13 PM) AEN:    maybe only the thought realm
(7:13 PM) John:    did u read the part regarding spontaneous arising?
(7:14 PM) AEN:    tink so
(7:17 PM) AEN:    ?
(7:21 PM) John:    u can ask casino_king can he know what God is?
(7:35 PM) AEN:    back
(7:35 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:36 PM) AEN:    hmm u seriously do not tink wat?
(7:36 PM) AEN:    that the woman is krishnamurti's heir?
(7:36 PM) John:    yes. :)
(7:36 PM) AEN:    oic how come
(7:38 PM) John:    that is just my personal opinion.  I think she follows K's teaching, but not as what you mentioned spiritual heir.  I read some of the written articles, I do not think so. :)
(7:43 PM) AEN:    oic.. okie
(7:46 PM) John:    big 3?
(7:46 PM) John:    :P
(7:47 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    Casino_King,

    Can you know what God is?

According to whom? The big 3 think of God as Spirit.

So, according to Buddhist teaching, what is REAL?
(7:47 PM) AEN:    big 3?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    christianity, islam, hindu?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    no ideas.
(7:48 PM) John:    hahaah....why christianity, islam and hindu are the big 3. :P  Buddhism must be the small 4.
(7:48 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:52 PM) AEN:    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=198043&page=1
(7:52 PM) AEN:    To tell you the truth , there was a duration of time where i can really see them in flashing images . Which means i can see them in flashing images like those flashes from cameras but not very clear though . So perhaps during that time i was too stressed and exchausted and always beside them so maybe sort of absorb their chi without knowing .
But during that time i really can see them a few times once when i was in a pub with my friend when i suddenly have this feeling of them being come to check on me n i can see them walking in through the door only to disappear after walking past me to the counter . The second time was i was in the middle of the session where i have a feeling the hei wu chang coming and even able to see him walking towards my direction . And not long afterwards the bai wu chang left the medium body and hei wu chang possed the medium body to tok .
So whats the conclusion ? Do i need to seek treatment although no i longer see them with my eye ?
(7:54 PM) John:    Don't have to answer him. :)
(7:54 PM) AEN:    haha ok
(7:54 PM) AEN:    y
(7:54 PM) John:    don't tell u. :P
(7:54 PM) AEN:    huh
(7:54 PM) AEN:    lol
(7:56 PM) John:    If I were to ask you to sort out the link that is posted by longchen what that is being stated is true experience and what are mere concepts, r u able to do it?
(7:57 PM) AEN:    i dunno leh cos i no true experience
(7:57 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:58 PM) John:    u should tell casino_king, u came in to join in and like him to ask question. :P
(7:58 PM) AEN:    huh?
(7:58 PM) John:    means like him only ask question lor.
(7:58 PM) John:    and asking the question is to guide him. :P
(7:58 PM) John:    lol
(7:59 PM) AEN:    so i change to 'i came to ask you to ask something'? :S
(8:00 PM) John:    nope...what i meant is, just like hiim, ur purpose is not to tell the answer, but to ask question so as to lead him to find out for himself. :P  This is what he said right?...hehee
(8:00 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:00 PM) AEN:    hehe
(8:04 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    I did not join in the discussion to answer your question.

    I came to ask something.

According to the big 3, God is spirit and in their scriptures, you have many desciptions of encounters with God.

The totality of these encounters do not make up God but it does show that God interacts with people. While nobody knows what God is (what is Spirit?) people do have a glimpse of God.

So what is REAL as taught by Buddhism?

Maybe this question is too difficult for the Buddhists here to answer as the "What is Empty?" question had shown.

I do hope that as Buddhists you will discover the answer.
(8:06 PM) John:    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, i am unable to discuss with you, unless u do 3 things....I go makan first....
(8:07 PM) John:    first thing
(8:07 PM) AEN:    u post or i post
(8:07 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:08 PM) John:    r u able to forgot whatever is being discussed and go back to what that is born spiritually.
(8:08 PM) John:    not even a trace in ur mind. :P
(8:09 PM) AEN:    so i ask him "Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?"
(8:09 PM) AEN:    ok then?
(8:09 PM) AEN:    btw u post or i post
(8:09 PM) AEN:    u post la
(8:18 PM) John:    back
(8:18 PM) John:    :)
(8:18 PM) John:    lol
(8:18 PM) John:    buddhism like nobody. :P
(8:19 PM) John:    because of his condition, he will not be able to understand the profound teachiing of emptiness.
(8:19 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:19 PM) John:    i have already taught u when emptiness should step in
(8:20 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence
(8:20 PM) John:    but u did not refine ur understanding.
(8:20 PM) John:    first all discussion must be forgotten
(8:20 PM) John:    it can start from anywhere if he is in the correct path
(8:21 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:21 PM) John:    tell him to seriously look into the link that longchen posted, that is the second thing he must do.
(8:22 PM) John:    3 and most important of all, he must be sincere and stop useless pretense
(8:22 PM) AEN:    pretense?
(8:22 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:22 PM) John:    :P
(8:22 PM) AEN:    ya tats wat longchen said also
(8:22 PM) AEN:    wat he pretending
(8:22 PM) John:    how can anyone tell him anything...
(8:22 PM) John:    isn't it a waste of time eh?
(8:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:24 PM) John:    a person that truly knows is completely clear.  He knows the stages and is thorough.
(8:24 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:24 PM) John:    The depth of the clarity itself, how can one bullshit about ones clarity
(8:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:25 PM) John:    what that can be intuitively grasped when spoken worth not even a cent. :)
(8:25 PM) John:    it becomes knowledge and yet this form of knowledge is still precious for one that is truly sincere.
(8:26 PM) John:    but when one isn't sincere, he knows nothing
(8:26 PM) John:    till now, do u sense the condition that he will know?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:26 PM) John:    it isn't right yet. :)
(8:26 PM) AEN:    sense the condition that he will start to understand?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    i tink dont tink so
(8:27 PM) John:    yes he is egoistic but he is putting all his effort to know something profound, he knows it.
(8:27 PM) John:    so some time i spoke a lil but only when the condition is right. :)
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:28 PM) John:    he attempted to understand
(8:28 PM) John:    emptiness but have no idea of the application
(8:28 PM) John:    do not know where to step in
(8:28 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:28 PM) John:    u must be able to see that
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:29 PM) John:    why because he is only at the first level...close to it.
(8:30 PM) John:    unlike others, i never said he doesn't know anything....rather i told u he has some experiences.  :)
(8:30 PM) AEN:    oic...
(8:31 PM) John:    but at present i know he can't understand emptiness, only theoretically
(8:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:31 PM) John:    at least longchen is stepping into anatta
(8:32 PM) John:    and then he has to extend it the rest of the six senses that i always said though i did not explicitly emphasize. :)
(8:32 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:32 PM) John:    before the profound meaning of emptiness can be appreciated.
(8:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:32 PM) John:    i told u that is the second level right?
(8:32 PM) AEN:    ya
(8:33 PM) John:    before true spontaneous arising, the unconditioned can be known.
(8:33 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:33 PM) John:    isn't all at this first level and attempting to go beyond?
(8:34 PM) John:    most of those that are posted and links...they are so.
(8:34 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:34 PM) John:    u must feel it urself. :)
(8:34 PM) AEN:    u mean longchen's link?
(8:34 PM) John:    most links that are not really buddhist
(8:34 PM) AEN:    orh icic
(8:34 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:34 PM) AEN:    btw advaita got reach the longchen's link's 4th level?
(8:34 PM) AEN:    level
(8:35 PM) John:    what are the levels that are real and what are the levels that are extrapolated is important. :)
(8:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:36 PM) AEN:    so its merely an extension
(8:36 PM) John:    when u hear ur master or chen ming an master teach, din he tok about the 3 level of presence?
(8:36 PM) AEN:    but hmm but isnt the 4th stage talking about no-self without falling back to 'I AM'? isnt it quite different from Advaita?
(8:36 PM) John:    i will tell u later the mistake. :P
(8:37 PM) AEN:    eh? teacher chen arh... not sure leh... maybe in indirect way
(8:37 PM) John:    but don't take my words, just take it as a form of knowledge.
(8:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:38 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence i told u is to allow you to understand exactly where it should step in.
(8:38 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:39 PM) John:    what are the ppl so confused about the "I AMness" and exactly where it steps in and leading to what....this is for the convenience of explanation so that those non-buddhists can appreciate the Blessed One's teaching. :)
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:40 PM) John:    and when I tell u, i want u to experience it.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:40 PM) John:    so that u know when to apply what medicine. :P
(8:40 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:41 PM) John:    when i tell u the riddle of the zen master conversation, it is not meant to be told, but what i want is to let u know ur friends stage when he is not there.  So that u will not be confused.
(8:42 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:42 PM) John:    but the important aspect has not gone into ur mind yet. :P
(8:42 PM) AEN:    ?
(8:42 PM) John:    otherwise u would be able to answer me when i asked u what the link's lack.
(8:42 PM) John:    and where is the problem
(8:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:43 PM) AEN:    so wats their problem
(8:43 PM) John:    when your friend writes poem and the poems of those that truly experience, what is the diff?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    eh brb
(8:44 PM) AEN:    back
(8:44 PM) AEN:    which friend?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    u mean from my dharma centre?
(8:44 PM) John:    the email u posted me
(8:44 PM) AEN:    'fei you fei kong' - 2 articles
(8:44 PM) AEN:    rite
(8:45 PM) John:    yeah
(8:45 PM) AEN:    u said he wasnt speaking in terms of ultimate reality
(8:45 PM) AEN:    or theoretical
(8:45 PM) John:    yes
(8:45 PM) John:    what are the poems of those of that truly experience like?
(8:46 PM) AEN:    erm.. u said... he will talk about things like... keyboard sounding
(8:46 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:46 PM) AEN:    hmm but i tink my friend has some kind of awakening experience?
(8:47 PM) AEN:    i never ask him la but i tink so
(8:47 PM) John:    yeah...like casino_king but more humble. :P
(8:47 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:47 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:48 PM) John:    read Soen-sa experience (Soh: see http://www.buddhanet.net/masters/soen-sa.htm)
(8:48 PM) AEN:    so u mean my fren experience the same 'life force' thing?
(8:48 PM) John:    yet his is not stable yet
(8:48 PM) AEN:    soen-sa? seung sahn?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:48 PM) AEN:    what is not stable?
(8:48 PM) John:    that level is already beyond 1 going into 2
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:49 PM) AEN:    which one
(8:49 PM) John:    the luminosity is clear and correct
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:49 PM) John:    yet his master told him to be silent for 3 years
(8:49 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:49 PM) John:    the mind that is pre-occupied cannot perceive his master's intention
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:50 PM) John:    u know what is the problem of the link now?
(8:50 PM) AEN:    wat is it
(8:51 PM) John:    what is lacking...
(8:51 PM) John:    think...u should know
(8:53 PM) John:    what is the diff between what is posted and those zen masters' poems
(8:53 PM) AEN:    true experience, theoretical?
(8:53 PM) John:    yes but what is the true experience like?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    experiencing the presence in everything without self
(8:54 PM) John:    yes! fusing into everything....
(8:55 PM) John:    the tennis court....the drum beats of the foot step
(8:55 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:55 PM) John:    that clarity breaks the first level into the 2nd
(8:55 PM) AEN:    icic how come
(8:55 PM) John:    the luminosity of the mirror bright
(8:55 PM) AEN:    u mean by experiencing that one will immediately realise Emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    wait...what is the differences between that and emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    sorry i mean "AMness"
(8:57 PM) John:    the clarity of zen masters enlightenment and "AMness"
(8:57 PM) AEN:    amness is still attached to a state of purity? not completely fuse into everything?
(8:58 PM) John:    yes...has the zen master not demonstrated in their lives about the luminous clarity in all things that came into contact?
(8:59 PM) John:    is there a self?
(8:59 PM) John:    there is only the everything
(8:59 PM) John:    where is the 'Self'?
(8:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:59 PM) AEN:    but hmm
(9:00 PM) AEN:    i tot u also said b4, when one experiences the 'i am' when 6 senses are widely open, one will experience it as 'i am all'. isnt that also sort of fusing into everything?
(9:00 PM) John:    yes....and zen masters might have the danger of that too....
(9:01 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:01 PM) John:    so luminosity is not nature
(9:01 PM) John:    what is it?
(9:01 PM) AEN:    emptiness?
(9:01 PM) John:    yes
(9:01 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:01 PM) John:    it is anatta...now this, now that, always changing and ungraspable
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:02 PM) John:    the ungraspable is anatta manifestation.
(9:02 PM) John:    it is seen in all
(9:02 PM) John:    in everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:02 PM) John:    if u return and want to rest in the 'Self', instead of gaining, u lost everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:03 PM) John:    the nature is anatta, there is no self
(9:03 PM) John:    understand?
(9:03 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:04 PM) John:    now when one understand this, he lays the foundation of stabilizing this in "everything" experience
(9:04 PM) John:    because he is not returning to the "AMness"
(9:04 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:04 PM) John:    he is not confused anymore
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:05 PM) John:    he finds it in all things without returning...though ungraspable, it is always seized at the moment.
(9:05 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:05 PM) John:    and how it arise? this is, that is
(9:05 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:05 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:06 PM) John:    so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John:    sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John:    scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:06 PM) John:    everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:07 PM) John:    so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:07 PM) John:    how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John:    it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John:    because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:08 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:08 PM) AEN:    that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John:    that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:09 PM) John:    this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:10 PM) John:    but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:11 PM) John:    then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John:    then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:11 PM) John:    then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John:    because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John:    arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John:    therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:13 PM) John:    in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John:    he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:14 PM) John:    all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
(9:14 PM) AEN:    but hmm... i read dzogchen texts also speaks of the 'Source'
(9:15 PM) AEN:    but in that context it isnt meant to be 'controller' rite?
(9:15 PM) John:    i do not like to use the word source...ehehhe
(9:15 PM) John:    just like 'Self'...
(9:15 PM) John:    :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    oic but dzogchen talks about it quite often
(9:15 PM) AEN:    lol
(9:15 PM) John:    depends on who tok also. :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    haha why
(9:15 PM) AEN:    there is this famous dzogchen book 'The Supreme Source'
(9:16 PM) AEN:    i read a bit last time in bookstore
(9:16 PM) John:    ic....good?
(9:16 PM) AEN:    quite gd la but a bit deep hahah
(9:16 PM) AEN:    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1559391200/102-2875363-8821705?v=glance&n=283155
(9:17 PM) John:    just practice clarity...it is enough :)
(9:17 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:21 PM) John:    have u heard of upasika kee?
(9:21 PM) AEN:    nope
(9:21 PM) AEN:    what about her
(9:21 PM) John:    she is a lay but masters of many monks and nuns.  Very dedicated practitioner
(9:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:22 PM) John:    there is a book pure and simple, compiled by her disciple.
(9:22 PM) John:    quite good.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:22 PM) John:    u might want to take a look.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:23 PM) John:    true practitioner experience is so hard to find nowadays.
(9:23 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:24 PM) John:    what prevents the mirror bright consciousness?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    delusions..?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    ignorance, defilements, etc
(9:24 PM) John:    hehehe...i prefer individuality, personality, self
(9:25 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:25 PM) AEN:    haha
(9:25 PM) AEN:    personality is bad?
(9:25 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by personality
(9:26 PM) John:    personality is the product of culture, education and traditions...etc
(9:26 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:26 PM) John:    it is not 'bad'
(9:26 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:27 PM) John:    to be enlightened, one has to do away even the conventional 'good'
(9:27 PM) John:    otherwise we cannot understand the reality of consciousness.
(9:27 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:27 PM) AEN:    how to do away
(9:28 PM) John:    do u know what is the biggest problem of consciousness so far?
(9:29 PM) John:    it just identify when it cannot feel its presence
(9:29 PM) AEN:    identification, self
(9:29 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:29 PM) John:    yes
(9:29 PM) John:    identification has tremendous power...u will not understand what i meant now.
(9:29 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:30 PM) John:    like a spell that prevents us from seeing
(9:30 PM) John:    take casino_king for example, why can't he see?
(9:30 PM) John:    something really strong is bonding right?
(9:31 PM) AEN:    yea
(9:31 PM) AEN:    btw he just replied
(9:31 PM) AEN:    hehehe
(9:31 PM) John:    lol
(9:31 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:

    1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?

    2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress

    3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.

If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience?
(9:31 PM) John:    :)
(9:32 PM) John:    an experience that he can't understand. :P
(9:32 PM) AEN:    hahahah
(9:35 PM) John:    ahhaa...
(9:38 PM) AEN:    so how ? hahaha
(9:39 PM) John:    until the seed arises otherwise, even buddha can't help. :)
(9:39 PM) John:    if the mind can be seen, defined, anatta will have no meaning.
(9:40 PM) AEN:    icic

(9:43 PM) John:    i will be traceless in time to come.
(9:43 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    though i think buddhism presents the most profound teaching.
(9:44 PM) John:    i prefer taoist style. :)
(9:44 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    too much have already been said, taught, written.
(9:45 PM) AEN:    my shi fu say lao tzu is a pratyekabuddha.. haha
(9:45 PM) AEN:    tats y he din teach :P
(9:45 PM) John:    yes. :)
(9:45 PM) AEN:    so u wan to be pratyekabuddha arh
(9:45 PM) John:    don't think i am so sut. :P
(9:46 PM) John:    without Buddha's teaching, I will be stuck in "AMness and Everything"
(9:46 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:46 PM) AEN:    sut = ?
(9:47 PM) John:    outstanding. :)
(9:47 PM) AEN:    orh kk
(9:48 PM) John:    i sincerely hope longchen can going beyond his experience and get true authentication.
(9:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:50 PM) John:    hahaha
(9:50 PM) John:    casino_king...blur liao
(9:50 PM) John:    already said ask only wat
(9:51 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(9:53 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers. :)
(9:54 PM) John:    If people sense his sincerity, there will definitely be contributors.  Even there is no consensus, there will be true gain.
(9:54 PM) AEN:    icic..

(10:11 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:


    Question

    I think you blur liao. See my previous post.

Like I said, you are trying to avoid the difficult questions.

Does Buddhism say anything about what is REAL?
(10:12 PM) John:    what is real is becoming. (Soh: also see Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html)
(10:13 PM) John:    sinweiy replied....added additional condition
(10:14 PM) John:    he must struggle till sincerity arise
(10:14 PM) AEN:    added additional condition?
(10:14 PM) John:    casino_king's mind must be led to silence
(10:15 PM) John:    knowledge will only confuse him further.
(10:15 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:15 PM) John:    otherwise why u wouldn't have told him to empty all that he has learnt
(10:16 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:17 PM) John:    the understanding of the "spirit", the living force within must come to the challenge
(10:18 PM) John:    to fully understand what that is being experienced, let him say out this experience first...
(10:18 PM) John:    this life force that is working within him.
(10:18 PM) John:    it is so real.
(10:18 PM) John:    full of life.
(10:19 PM) John:    it is his entire beingness
(10:19 PM) John:    he must bring it out...
(10:19 PM) AEN:    icic...
(10:19 PM) John:    and be sincere and humble.
(10:19 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:20 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers.
(10:20 PM) John:    I hope he can reach this point.
(10:21 PM) John:    and let longchen lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:22 PM) AEN:    then u leh? :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    as in lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:23 PM) AEN:    haha
(10:23 PM) John:    u lead him. :)
(10:23 PM) AEN:    oh i lead him with ur words :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:23 PM) John:    with those that i have told u, it is sufficent. :)
(10:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:25 PM) John:    seeds can be planted but there is no fruition, it can take many years
(10:26 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:29 PM) John:    what is the difference between "no individuality and impersonality" and the way Buddhaghosa describe no-self?
(10:30 PM) AEN:    no individuality refers to the mind realm ceasing of self-perception but does not speak of the presence of fusing into everything
(10:30 PM) AEN:    ?
(10:31 PM) John:    not bad. :)  I will add a lil more.
(10:31 PM) AEN:    ok
(10:32 PM) John:    the idea of process, change isn't inside
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is understood as a flow, that in actuality there is no 'entity', only flow
(10:33 PM) John:    means there is no nouns but always verbs (Soh: see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind, and also Choosing http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/choosing.html)
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is linked to it
(10:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:35 PM) John:    the misconception and individuality is of taking a process and 'identifying' it as an 'entity' through confusion of language and symbolic structures
(10:35 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:36 PM) John:    when one tries to losing individuality and say that consciousness is impersonal, there is just a snap shot of the experience....it is not a form of thorough understanding or a deep insight of the truth.
(10:37 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:38 PM) John:    so true non-dual must come from such insight as described in Buddhaghosa poem. :) (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/05/no-self-no-doer-conditionality.html )
(10:38 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:39 PM) John:    i spoke many times about non-dual and said even one has entered non-dual does not necessary understand anatta and emptiness, this is what i meant.(10:39 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:40 PM) John:    otherwise it remains as a stage that can be entered and exit.
(10:40 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:40 PM) John:    instead of a gateless gate (See: Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/anatta-is-dharma-seal-or-truth-that-is.html )
(10:40 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:41 PM) John:    u see the diff?
(10:41 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:42 PM) John:    so u understand why pure consciousness is not really a correct description eh?
(10:42 PM) AEN:    ya
(10:42 PM) John:    like the blessed one described, it is named after its condition and organs (Soh: See https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi )
(10:42 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:43 PM) John:    until the entire trace of self subsides, one begin to experience emptiness
(10:43 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:43 PM) John:    if the self does not subside, we will not understand why there isn't entry and exit.
(10:44 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:44 PM) John:    consciousness is wherever conditions and causes are. (Also see: Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/06/bodhidharma-on-awareness-and-conditions.html
(10:45 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:45 PM) John:    how could a 'Self' understand and experience such profound experience. :)
(10:45 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:45 PM) John:    though it is mentioned by ur master chen ming an, the true experience is not that easy to understand...there are different depth and no ending to it. :)
(10:46 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:46 PM) John:    it all links to the degree of clarity
(10:46 PM) John:    the miraculous manifestation is not easily understood.
(10:46 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:47 PM) John:    and the depth of experience is beyond explanation and has no bottom.
(10:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:49 PM) John:    what i told u is just the beginning, when one thought that he has fully experienced emptiness, immediately he is misled by his own experience.
(10:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:50 PM) AEN:    how come
(10:50 PM) John:    it is difficult to tell u in words. :)
(10:50 PM) John:    my experience is but a figment.
(10:50 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:51 PM) John:    :)
(10:51 PM) AEN:    shall i post the 3 dharma seals to casino king?
(10:52 PM) John:    no...wait for the seed to arise...he will not be able to appreciate.  He will think that it is sort of low standard and too simple. :)
(10:52 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:52 PM) AEN:    ok



p.s. on Zen Master Seung Sahn:

I wrote to Mr. J a week ago:

Positing consciousness to be an unchanging substance modulating into many forms is the view of one mind, it is a view of inherent existence, it is an essentialist and substantialist view. Anatta realization puts an end to such delusions.

Unfortuantely many practitioners, even well known Zen masters, hold this erroneous view, for example Zen Master SS said, "Electricity is none of these things, and yet it is all of them. Similarly, rain, snow, fog, vapor, river, sea, sleet, and ice are all different forms of the same substance. They are different thing. But H2 0 is unchanging, and composes all of them according to their situation. They are all water. The same is true of Dharma-nature. It is not one and not two. That is a very important point."

[24/6/18, 3:03:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: My mom ask me something about a Seung Sahn poem so I went to search
[24/6/18, 3:03:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Seung Sahn is having view of one mind but experience of no mind? (See: 5) Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta)
[24/6/18, 3:03:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Like one inherent substance manifesting as many
[24/6/18, 3:03:47 PM] John Tan: Many have...lol
‎[24/6/18, 3:04:37 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
‎[24/6/18, 3:04:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
[24/6/18, 3:04:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So actually Seung Sahn is not yet anatta (Comments by Soh: we actually thought Master Seung Sahn realised anatta previously, see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2017/10/what-is-strong-sitting.html . Having said that, even now I still resonate very much with a lot of what Zen Master Seung Sahn teaches and would certainly recommend people to read his writings if you're interested.)
[24/6/18, 3:04:47 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic
[24/6/18, 3:05:37 PM] John Tan: To me yes
[24/6/18, 3:06:11 PM] John Tan: Mistaken experience due to lack of view. That is Zen’s problem imo
[24/6/18, 3:07:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic
[24/6/18, 3:08:04 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah some analogy by Seung Sahn is still substantialist
[24/6/18, 3:08:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think he is describing no mind but not so much anatta
[24/6/18, 3:08:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Unlike dogen is clearly anatta or the Hong wen Liang
[24/6/18, 3:08:32 PM] John Tan: No mind is an experience
[24/6/18, 3:09:27 PM] John Tan: Insight of anatta must arise then refine one’s view
[24/6/18, 3:11:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. I think Seung Sahn has non dual realisation but maybe not anatta
[24/6/18, 3:11:17 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe that’s why he still talks about mirror analogy
[24/6/18, 3:11:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[24/6/18, 3:11:50 PM] John Tan: Lol
[24/6/18, 3:28:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: So for modern Chinese so far I never see anyone clearly anatta besides Hong wen Liang who has Soto Zen lineage (update by Soh: another Chinese master I like is Ven Hui Lu - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/12/true-mind-and-unconditioned-dharma_18.html , http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Zen%20Master%20Hui%20L%C3%BC . Also the ancient, first Ch'an/Zen Master in China, Bodhidharma, was explicitly clear about anatman as a key realization of Zen - see The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论)- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/11/the-doctrine-of-no-mind-by-bodhidharma.html but many subsequent Zen masters after him had fallen into substantialist/essentialist view similar to Advaita Vedanta)
[24/6/18, 3:28:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Teachers I mean
[24/6/18, 3:28:53 PM] John Tan: I would say so.
[24/6/18, 3:29:38 PM] John Tan: Through anatta then emptiness is easily accepted and the beauty of 2 truth will b appreciated.
[24/6/18, 3:30:03 PM] John Tan: But no need to go through the unnecessary details...lol
[24/6/18, 3:30:35 PM] John Tan: However “emptiness” as I said to Andre is a more subtle insight.
[24/6/18, 3:31:40 PM] John Tan: 2 truth essentially is just 1. It can never b separated. Appears and empty.
[24/6/18, 3:33:15 PM] John Tan: There is a very interesting paradox, go read at my profile.
[24/6/18, 3:34:35 PM] John Tan: There emptiness and appearance must b understood as inseparable union.
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